CR question

[Yklikt]

What if I have a monkey and add a template that has +1 CR to it? Does CR become 1 or 1/5?

[finaldooms]

It should be a flat cr 1 now i believe

[InvisibleBison]

I'm pretty sure the templated monkey would be CR 1/5. In support of this view, I draw your attention to the common kobold. On page 161 of the Monster Manual, it is written "Kobolds with levels in NPC classes have a CR equal to their character level -3." The sample kobold is a 1st level warrior, and has a CR of 1/4. Thus, we see that 1 - 3 = 1/4. This suggests that normal math has been cast aside and a new form of D&D math has been born, where 1/a + b = 1/(b - a). Thus, 1/6 + 1 = 1/5.

Edit: Actually, on reviewing the Monster Manual, I'm not sure that 1/5 is a valid CR at all, as there aren't any creatures rated thusly in the MM. This suggests that Challenge Ratings aren't really numbers, but slots given numerical labels. This actually eliminates the weird D&D math I described above, because you're not doing math at all; instead, you're simply moving up or down a certain number of slots. So 1 - 3 = 1/4 because three slots down from the slot labelled "1" is the slot labelled "1/4". The system could be relabeled to eliminate fractional CRs entirely, but that would do away with the simplicity of level n characters fighting CR or ECL n fights.

[KillianHawkeye]

First of all, adding 1 to 1/6 doesn't equal 1/5.

Secondly, the rules never go into exactly what happens when you add CR to a creature whose CR is less than 1. It's an odd gap in the rules where you're expected to be able to add numerically to a creature's CR, and yet fractional CRs above 1 simply do not exist in any printed material.

However, given the example that to calculate experience for a CR 1/2 creature, we simply divide the experience from a CR 1 creature in half, then there's no reason why we can't continue using fractional CRs at any level. Just do the math and have your CR 1 1/6 creature and pretend that everything is normal (it'll grant 1.1667x the normal experience of a CR 1 creature).

[InvisibleBison]

First of all, adding 1 to 1/6 doesn't equal 1/5.

Was this directed at me? Because I think I explained how I came to that conclusion fairly clearly in my original post. I'm not using normal math. In fact, I'm not using math at all - see the edit.


Secondly, the rules never go into exactly what happens when you add CR to a creature whose CR is less than 1. It's an odd gap in the rules where you're expected to be able to add numerically to a creature's CR, and yet fractional CRs above 1 simply do not exist in any printed material.

However, given the example that to calculate experience for a CR 1/2 creature, we simply divide the experience from a CR 1 creature in half, then there's no reason why we can't continue using fractional CRs at any level. Just do the math and have your CR 1 1/6 creature and pretend that everything is normal (it'll grant 1.1667x the normal experience of a CR 1 creature).

The point of CR is to establish what constitutes a fair fight for a given party. You're proposing that a CR 1/6 creature with a +1 CR template is roughly equivalent to a CR 1 creature. I don't think that is accurate. Compare a celestial monkey (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/monkey.htm) with a wolf (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/wolf.htm). The monkey has 1/3 the wolf's HP, 1/4 its average damage, has a vastly inferior special attack that can only be used once, and must provoke an attack of opportunity in order to attack at all. The monkey is simply not the same level of threat as the wolf. To argue that the monkey should have a higher CR than the wolf is, frankly, absurd.

[KillianHawkeye]

Was this directed at me? Because I think I explained how I came to that conclusion fairly clearly in my original post. I'm not using normal math. In fact, I'm not using math at all - see the edit.

No, it was directed to the OP. You actually posted while I was writing my post.

As for the rest of it, you might be right. Comparison with other creatures is probably the best way to determine CR. I was simply approaching the question form a purely mathematical viewpoint.

[nyjastul69]

It's a CR 1 creature.

ETA: A celestial monkey has the exact same CR as a monkey. The celestial template doesn't affect CR until it is applied to a creature with at least 4 HD.

[Uncle Pine]

The CR should become 1. However, I can't seem to find the exact passage that spells that out by RAW.