PDA

View Full Version : Hiding, Total Concealment, and Sneak Attack



JackMage666
2007-07-20, 07:08 PM
So, I'm thinking about making a rogue with the Shadow template (LoM, pg 167), but I'm trying to figure some things out.
1. Does Shadow Blend allow you to use sneak attack on all attacks, so long as its active?
2. Regardless, does the concealment allow me to make a Hide check?
3. Does a successful Hide check allow you to make a Sneak Attack against an opponent?

Yes, I know LA is bad, I'm not worried about that for various reasons. I'm just trying to figure some things out.

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-07-20, 08:18 PM
So, I'm thinking about making a rogue with the Shadow template (LoM, pg 167), but I'm trying to figure some things out.
1. Does Shadow Blend allow you to use sneak attack on all attacks, so long as its active?
Yes. Shadow Blend gives you total concealment, which renders you effectively invisible. Attacking does not break this. Your opponents will not have their Dex bonus against your attacks.


2. Regardless, does the concealment allow me to make a Hide check?
Since you are already effectively invisible, a Hide check would be redundant. But the answer is yes any way.


3. Does a successful Hide check allow you to make a Sneak Attack against an opponent?
Yes. Since your opponent is unable to see you, they would not have their Dex bonus to AC against your attack. However, the first attack you make usually alerts your opponent to your presence, removing your Hidden status.

(Note, I do not have Lords of Madness and am basing my responses off the Shadow template as it appears in Manual of the Planes and the 3.5 update appearing on the WotC website.

giblina
2007-07-20, 08:27 PM
Simple darkvision negates shadow blend, doesn't it?

giblina
2007-07-20, 08:30 PM
Yeah, from SRD...


Ignoring Concealment

Concealment isn’t always effective. A shadowy area or darkness doesn’t provide any concealment against an opponent with darkvision.

Good ability to use against surface dwellers, but dwarves and half-orcs will laugh at you :)

Yechezkiel
2007-07-20, 08:33 PM
Combine that with the Sniping part of the Hide Skill:

"Sniping: If you’ve already successfully hidden at least 10 feet from your target, you can make one ranged attack, then immediately hide again. You take a –20 penalty on your Hide check to conceal yourself after the shot."

Inyssius Tor
2007-07-20, 08:37 PM
Oh hey, that makes the Darkvision spell way better, huh?

lotofsnow
2007-07-20, 08:39 PM
You might want to consider the Dark Creature template. +1 LA for bonuses to Hide and Move Silently skills as well as Hide in Plain Sight in everything except daylight. This can make you invisible to even those with Darkvision. My level 1 Dark Whisper Gnome Beguiler has +22 Hide and +18 Move Silently checks with 2 and 4 ranks in each skill respectively. Combine that with Hide in Plain Sight and not even my party knows where I am most of the time.

giblina
2007-07-20, 08:44 PM
Oh hey, that makes the Darkvision spell way better, huh?

Without a doubt, darkvision is one of the most under-rated racial abilities in the game. It's immensely useful not only for those trying to avoid being seen, but also for those trying to see those same people.

I dropped my party in a cave for a few days, and you should've seen the craziness. They only had one continual flame object (which my dwarf NPC had to lend them), and some crappy torches. Everything could see them coming from a mile away, and they couldn't see jack.

I was never mean enough to do it to them, but a deeper darkness spell dropped on the party would have blinded them all (because prevaling light conditions were pitch black)

JackMage666
2007-07-20, 10:11 PM
Well, Shadow Blend gives me Total Concealment so long as I'm not in natural daylight (or a daylight spell). It doesn't say if it's negated by Darkvision or not.

Also, Ring of the Darkhidden (found in Magic Item Compendium) would render me invisible to Darkvision, anyway.

Bauglir
2007-07-20, 11:03 PM
Yes, you'll definitely want that Ring. Also, Darkstalker. Foils Blindsight, Blindsense, Tremorsense and Scent as long as you can make the hide check or the move silently check to beat them (whichever you want, since you only need to make one and you choose). Feat from Lords of Madness.

Curmudgeon
2007-07-21, 12:41 PM
You might want to consider the Dark Creature template. +1 LA for bonuses to Hide and Move Silently skills as well as Hide in Plain Sight in everything except daylight. This can make you invisible to even those with Darkvision. You've overlooked one thing, lotofsnow. The Dark Creature template's version of Hide in Plain Sight doesn't remove the requirement for cover/concealment required by the Hide skill. Check the description. It doesn't have a statement like the part I've highlighted in the Shadowdancer's HiPS description:
Hide in Plain Sight (Su)

A shadowdancer can use the Hide skill even while being observed. As long as she is within 10 feet of some sort of shadow, a shadowdancer can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind. She cannot, however, hide in her own shadow.
Hide in Plain Sight (Ex)

Use the Hide skill even while being observed (except in natural daylight, the area of a daylight spell, or similar ettect). See the problem? That's the difference between the Supernatural and Extraordinary versions of HiPS. (The Ranger's HiPS is also Extraordinary and has the same limitation; it's just that the Ranger also has Camouflage which, as a separate ability, removes the cover/concealment requirement in natural terrain.)

AtomicKitKat
2007-07-21, 11:43 PM
I keep forgetting. Where's Dark Creature from?

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-07-22, 06:55 AM
Well, Shadow Blend gives me Total Concealment so long as I'm not in natural daylight (or a daylight spell). It doesn't say if it's negated by Darkvision or not.
Well, a creature with darkvision would see you as if you were in total daylight would it not? From that creature's perspective, you wouldn't even be in the shadows.


I keep forgetting. Where's Dark Creature from?
Tome of Magic. It is specifically a scaled back version of the Shadow Creature template. So it gives you two different degrees of connection to shadow.

lotofsnow
2007-07-22, 09:09 AM
You've overlooked one thing, lotofsnow. The Dark Creature template's version of Hide in Plain Sight doesn't remove the requirement for cover/concealment required by the Hide skill. Check the description. It doesn't have a statement like the part I've highlighted in the Shadowdancer's HiPS description: See the problem? That's the difference between the Supernatural and Extraordinary versions of HiPS. (The Ranger's HiPS is also Extraordinary and has the same limitation; it's just that the Ranger also has Camouflage which, as a separate ability, removes the cover/concealment requirement in natural terrain.)

I don't see the issue. The limitation on Rangers, as defined by the text, is they need to be in natural terrain and Shadowdancers need to be 10 ft. from shadow. Dark Creatures are less limited than the other classes, only by daylight and the daylight spell can they have this ability nullified. Anyone can hide with total cover and concealment even while being observed, the observers just know where you were last seen:


You can run around a corner or behind cover so that you’re out of sight and then hide, but the others then know at least where you went.

The Hide in Plain Sight ability waives the need of cover or concealment. If it didn't, it what just be "Hide."

The only difference between Su and Ex, as defined in the Player's Handbook. is Ex can be used in an antimagic field, whereas Su cannot.

As indicated in the Hypertext D20 SRD:


Extraordinary Abilities (Ex)

Extraordinary abilities are nonmagical, though they may break the laws of physics. They are not something that just anyone can do or even learn to do without extensive training.

These abilities cannot be disrupted in combat, as spells can, and they generally do not provoke attacks of opportunity. Effects or areas that negate or disrupt magic have no effect on extraordinary abilities. They are not subject to dispelling, and they function normally in an antimagic field.

Using an extraordinary ability is usually not an action because most extraordinary abilities automatically happen in a reactive fashion. Those extraordinary abilities that are actions are standard actions unless otherwise noted.


Supernatural Abilities (Su)

Supernatural abilities are magical and go away in an antimagic field but are not subject to spell resistance, counterspells, or to being dispelled by dispel magic. Using a supernatural ability is a standard action unless noted otherwise. Supernatural abilities may have a use limit or be usable at will, just like spell-like abilities. However, supernatural abilities do not provoke attacks of opportunity and never require Concentration checks. Unless otherwise noted, a supernatural ability has an effective caster level equal to the creature’s Hit Dice.

Essentially, Dark Creatures, Rangers and Specialist Illusionists (UA) can Hide even while being observed due to years of training(Ex). Dark Creatures can't do it in daylight, Rangers must be in natural terrain, and Illusionists aren't really limited.

Assassins and Shadowdancers can Hide even while being observed due to magic abilities granted to them by their class(Su). They both can hide anywhere, anytime as long as they are within 10 ft of shadow and outside an antimagic field.

Is the Dark Creature definition vague? It sure is. However, I would argue that "can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind" is the key to the Hide in Plain Sight ability in general.

skywalker
2007-07-22, 11:26 AM
From the SRD:

"If people are observing you, even casually, you can’t hide"

Sorry I can't do the cool forum quotes thing.

Hide in Plain Sight, by itself, does not remove the requirement for cover or concealment. It removes the requirement of not having people observe you. Normally, you can run around the corner and hide, yes, but with Hide in Plain Sight, you don't NEED to run around the corner, you see?

lotofsnow
2007-07-22, 12:06 PM
you don't NEED to run around the corner, you see?

But you're saying you still NEED to find cover or concealment?

So what would allow the use of Hide in Plain Sight as stated by the Dark Creature template that shows the benefit of that ability over the regular Hide skill?

An overturned table? Well, I can Hide behind that normally, as it provides cover. Sure, they know where I was, but they might not know where I end up.
A corner? Ditto.
Obscuring Mist? That provides total concealment at ranges >5ft, so I wouldn't even need to make a Hide check.

Sorry for being a pest, but I just want to make sure I understand this. I've never played a stealthy character before, but the way I indicated above is they way my DM sees it, too. I like to play by RAW, though, so if any information I can get on this will be much appreciated.

Leicontis
2007-07-22, 12:52 PM
Total concealment and invisibility are two different things. From the description of invisibility (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#invisibility):

Visually undetectable. An invisible creature gains a +2 bonus on attack rolls against sighted opponents, and ignores its opponents' Dexterity bonuses to AC (if any). (Invisibility has no effect against blinded or otherwise nonsighted creatures.) An invisible creature's location cannot be pinpointed by visual means, including darkvision. It has total concealment; even if an attacker correctly guesses the invisible creature's location, the attacker has a 50% miss chance in combat.

Being invisible allows sneak attacks, but total concealment alone doesn't appear to do so. Total concealment, along with a Hide in Plain Sight ability, would allow a character to hide even in the absence of cover, which would then allow them to deal sneak attack damage. This is definitely how I would rule in one of my campaigns, because otherwise it would leave the rogue able to out-damage the rest of the party against the majority of opponents.

Not having LoM myself, I can't be certain of this, but based on what I'm seeing here, it's my best interpretation.

Alveanerle
2007-07-22, 01:16 PM
So you want to hide, eh?

Basic conditions: not observed and have one of the following: concealment or cover.

If you have cover (say an overturned table up your wait height) or concealment (say a shadowy illumination area, or a dark corner, or a natural mist) but are being observed, even casually (say, you're in a combat) - tough deal, you need to either get out of their sight completely (run around corner, find some way of gaining concealment "so total that they cannot see through it") OR have Hide in Plain Sight extraordinary ability.

If you do not have cover nor concealment, and just have HiPS (Ex) ability - i'm sorry, you're out of luck - you're good but you have nothing to hide behind.

Now, some instances of the Hide in Plain Sight ability specificaly allow for hiding without cover/concealment - most notably that of a shadowdancer - as long as you're staying close to a shadow. But it's an exception to the rule.

The HiPS of a ranger does not allow for it - ranger can hide on a golf field only because of his earlier ability - camouflage - that grants him the ability of using grass straws as a cover.

Edit
Also - the shadowdancer ability always bepuzzled me. What if someone has darkvision, and thus can see shadowy areas as normal full light areas - does it mean that shadowdancer can hide from everyone else but to these darkvision granted ones he is just crouching in a funny way in a strange position, fully exposed? I'd certainly rule it this way.

lotofsnow
2007-07-22, 01:32 PM
So you want to hide, eh?

Ok. I guess that makes sense. I think what threw me off was the name of the ability. "Hidden in Plain Sight" would suggest out in the open, sans cover and concealment. When you lose your keys and you find them hiding in plain sight, they are generally in the middle of the table you looked at 5 times and failed to notice them. They weren't under a magazine or camouflaged in a bowl of loose change.

I'll bring this up to my DM and see how he wishes to interpret it. I also e-mailed custserv to get a "definitive" interpretation of the rules. I do know that you can e-mail them the same question twice and get two different answers though. We'll see what they say though.

Curmudgeon
2007-07-22, 07:06 PM
One way to make the Dark Creature template's version of Hide in Plain Sight work for you is to bring your own concealment. The Darkness spell (or Deeper Darkness cast previously on something you keep covered) will create concealment. To be able to avoid the limitations of this concealment, add the Ebon Eyes spell. This is more work than required to use the Shadowdancer's HiPS, of course, but obtaining the template is much cheaper than gaining entry to the prestige class.

Curmudgeon
2007-07-22, 07:11 PM
Also - the shadowdancer ability always bepuzzled me. What if someone has darkvision, and thus can see shadowy areas as normal full light areas - does it mean that shadowdancer can hide from everyone else but to these darkvision granted ones he is just crouching in a funny way in a strange position, fully exposed? No, the Shadowdancer is hidden even from those with darkvision. Because it's a Supernatural (i.e., magic) ability, the Shadowdancer doesn't need to Hide in the shadow at all -- just within 10' of it, right out in the open where anyone with normal vision or darkvision would otherwise be able to see.

The shadows don't need to provide concealment for the ability to work; they just need to exist. It's the nature of magic, and also why Shadowdancers lose their HiPS in an Antimagic Field.

lotofsnow
2007-07-22, 07:34 PM
One way to make the Dark Creature template's version of Hide in Plain Sight work for you is to bring your own concealment...

Ok. As a beguiler, concealment shouldn't be too difficult to come up with. My character is actually carrying around a couple of vials of Night Extract already.

Like I said before, my DM sees it the way I did, i.e. no concealment required. I'm torn as to if I should mention this to him. While I do like to play by RAW as much as possible, he did OK my playing a beguiler but failed to mention that this campaign was filled with undead.

Not that I'm having any problems. If they were more vulnerable to my class, it would just be . . . easier. I just kinda feel like a sneak attack-less skill monkey right now. I really hope the BBEG is humanoid.

I sent him an e-mail asking if there was going to be a lot more undead, and I mentioned I was almost out of holy water. His response? "Buy more holy water." :mitd:

Matthew
2007-07-24, 08:10 PM
No, the Shadowdancer is hidden even from those with darkvision. Because it's a Supernatural (i.e., magic) ability, the Shadowdancer doesn't need to Hide in the shadow at all -- just within 10' of it, right out in the open where anyone with normal vision or darkvision would otherwise be able to see.

The shadows don't need to provide concealment for the ability to work; they just need to exist. It's the nature of magic, and also why Shadowdancers lose their HiPS in an Antimagic Field.
I cannot figure out how you would draw that conclusion from the available text.

TSGames
2007-07-24, 08:40 PM
I keep forgetting. Where's Dark Creature from?

Well you see, erm, uh, when a dark creature loves another dark creature...

[EDIT=BEING SERIOUS]
It comes from Tome of Magic.
[/EDIT=BEING SERIOUS]

Curmudgeon
2007-07-25, 08:54 AM
I cannot figure out how you would draw that conclusion from the available text.
Hide in Plain Sight (Su)

A shadowdancer can use the Hide skill even while being observed. As long as she is within 10 feet of some sort of shadow, a shadowdancer can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind. She cannot, however, hide in her own shadow What's your difficulty? The Shadowdancer's HiPS doesn't require you to Hide in a shadow, just within 10' of one. Whether an observer has regular vision, darkvision, or is completely blind doesn't change whether shadows exist or not. If there are shadows nearby, HiPS lets you Hide.

Person_Man
2007-07-25, 09:11 AM
I second the importance of the Darkstalker feat if you're playing in a high powered campaign as a Skill Monkey that focuses on sneaking. I've always loved it from a roleplaying point of view as well - being so well hidden that even blindsight have to roll and opposed check to see you. Just be aware that once you attack an enemy, you've given up on Hiding and Moving Silently, and they're no longer denied their Dex bonus, unless you have some other way of doing so which they are not immune to.

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-07-25, 09:47 AM
What's your difficulty? The Shadowdancer's HiPS doesn't require you to Hide in a shadow, just within 10' of one. Whether an observer has regular vision, darkvision, or is completely blind doesn't change whether shadows exist or not. If there are shadows nearby, HiPS lets you Hide.
Okay, I'm following this point. Darkvision actually lets you see inside shadows without eliminating them. Heck, since Darkvision is not in color, one can even still tell where shadows are by how much color there is.

However, what about low-light vision? This effectively reduces the shadows in relation to the viewer. I mean, it's actually defined that way. Take a group of humans with a torch. For them, the shadows start within 20 ft., but for a group of elves with a torch, the shadows don't start until you get 40 ft. away.

Arbitrarity
2007-07-25, 10:44 AM
It says "some sort of shadow", thereby defining such a shadow unclearly, i.e., any shadow. Not a shadowy area, a shadow. Any light source will cast a relative shadow when obstructed by an object, and two light sources will cast two very weak shadows. Therefore, a shadowdancer can hide if there is anything protruding from the ground, anywhere :smallwink:

I.e. Cobblestones? Shadow in the cracks. Sun directly overhead? Shadow of your opponent, curved grass blade, overhang of cobblestone, etc.

Warning: Excessively cheesy. This is not how it's meant to be read. Most likely.

Matthew
2007-07-25, 10:59 AM
What's your difficulty? The Shadowdancer's HiPS doesn't require you to Hide in a shadow, just within 10' of one. Whether an observer has regular vision, darkvision, or is completely blind doesn't change whether shadows exist or not. If there are shadows nearby, HiPS lets you Hide.
My difficulty is the last part of that description which prohibits the Shadow Dancer from 'hiding in her own shadow'. A very odd prohibition, as it implies that when using this Supernatural Ability the Shadow Dancer is indeed hiding within the shadow that is within 10' in some supernatural way.
Indeed, it's not like she blinks out of existence or turns invisible. I don't think there is enough evidence either way to absolutely say what effect Dark Vision would have on this ability.

giblina
2007-07-25, 03:01 PM
re: My darkvision comments... you guys are confusing shadow blend (from shadow template) with hide in plain sight (shadowdancer ability).

I never said HIPS is negated by darkvision (it isn't).

I just think Shadow blend is (and even then, not that it's negated by darkvision, but rather that characters with darkvision can still see where the person is.).

It's the only way to me to justify the very low level adjustment to shadow template.

Lolzords
2007-07-25, 03:42 PM
[QUOTE=Shhalahr Windrider;2912936]Yes. Since your opponent is unable to see you, they would not have their Dex bonus to AC against your attack. However, the first attack you make usually alerts your opponent to your presence, removing your Hidden status.[QUOTE]

Here's a tip, when you have stupidly high hide modifier (+20<) use ranged weapons to execute sneak attack. That way, you can make a hide check after firing at -20 (to your normal modifier) to stay hidden and if it's sucsessful, you can sneak attack next round too.