[3.5] Overlapping figments and saves to disbelieve

[Uncle Pine]

From the Q&A thread:

Q 477

Can a caster create partially or completely overlapping Permanent Images (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/permanentImage.htm)? If yes, how would disbelieving them work?
For example, if I'm playing a Wizard and cast Permanent Image three times creating the illusion of a wall in front of me every time, would a foe need to succesfully roll to disbelieve three times to see through the wall? Or would a single succesful Will save disbelieve the three overlapping illusions?

[Uncle Pine]

Bump. Bump bump.

[Calthropstu]

raw, he needs 3 saves... but there would be one hell of a bonus.

[Gruftzwerg]

1st step: once he has a reason to roll against the illusions, he immediately gets to roll saves against all 3.

2nd step: If he succeeds even just 1 of the 3 rolls, he will notice that there is still something strange (cause he sees the same illusion twice now, 1 realistic illusion and 1 translucent illusion who look identical and are overlapping). This should lead to and automatic reroll attempt in the next round for the other remaining illusions and maybe even give the +4 bonus for knowing that there is an illusion.

3rd step: If he haven't successfully rolled his saves so far, the vision is still blocked and he can keep either trying to disbelieve it further or try to interact with the illusion with physical interaction (and may pass it).

If your only concern is vision, yeah the blocking of LoS stacks.

[Uncle Pine]

If your only concern is vision, yeah the blocking of LoS stacks.
Blocking line of sight was only part of the exercise: I was thinking about an efreeti guarding a temple and how having it make use of its 3/day Permanent Image SLA would work.

[Gruftzwerg]

Blocking line of sight was only part of the exercise: I was thinking about an efreeti guarding a temple and how having it make use of its 3/day Permanent Image SLA would work.

as said blocking LoS would work, but only that. What's the 1st thing if you discover an illusionary wall? You try to touch it and than just walk trough.


If the Efreeti is hiding/guarding something really of importance and you wanna pull out an illusionary scary mini-dungeon, here are some suggestions:

Imho, I would suggest as many diversification as possible. Don't leave a pattern.

Hide the illusion:
- the entrance (or mechanism) to the next room is disguised as illusionary wall, hidden behind a wall hanging. Most times only 1 PC will look behind the wall hanging > max 1 interaction and disbelieve roll. If the first attempt ain't successful, it will take em some time to try and look behind the wall hanging again.

Hide Traps with Illusions:
If they don't have vision/LoS, they can't "spot" the traps. They need to interact with a illusion to get a chance to disbelieve. And the interaction will likely activate the trap mechanism ;)

Bait "Dispell Magic":
Paste many illusionary "Glyphs/Runes" that look like Trap-Magic. It's likely that no one will wanna interact with it and if they wanna pass them they need to dispel them. And since the dispel will work normal as expected, they shouldn't notice that they got baited.

Circle Mania:
Let em run (trough an illusionary wall) into a big circle corridor filled with traps and obstacles and some should require rolls on each passing. You should always remind em slightly that "the corridor makes (still) a slight curve". Now it's up to the players turn their brains on and realize the situation.

Where the mechanism to the hidden room and to disarm the traps is hidden:
Well, where it should be expected. Right at the entrance, when you face to go out (of the temple) behind an illusion (this way, when you enter the Tempel you don't even have LoS and will just walk by). Your PCs need to get frustrated and run out of time/resources (by failing saves in the circle corridor and not finding the entrance..^^) in the first place. When they are ready to leave for resting before trying again, than they get might get a chance to find the mechanism.

[ExLibrisMortis]

How about this:

A rough downwards passage leads into a dungeon with finely-carved, if plain, walls and floors. The dungeon consists of high, narrow 4'x12' corridors on a single level (no ramps or stairs), the ceilings built with 1'x1' coffers (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coffer). Across the ceiling lies a permanent image of a ceiling, hiding the fact that there is no ceiling (the cross-bars between the coffers are real, so you can't get out easily, even if you disbelieve). If you fly above the dungeon, you'll see that it in fact consists of a series of trenches carved into the floor of a giant hall, cunningly covered with an illusion (if possible, a one-way illusion, but the efreeti probably has true seeing). Guards patrol the dungeon from above, opening and closing passages with real stone doors, guiding the PCs to interesting and unique features of the area.

Back in the day, the hall was inhabited by a Colossal-sized and rather puissant paragon of fire (a great wyrm dragon, maybe). For their amusement, lava used to run through the trenches, forming an original and attractive way to heat the floor (as a colossal creature, it is possible to walk on a 1' latticework floor, but smaller creatures must Balance or fly). The original mechanisms to flood the trenches with lava are inoperable, but a desparate efreeti may attempt to breach the locked sluice gates keeping the lava out. If the sluices are breached, the lava floods the entire dungeon within minutes, althoug it cools quickly without supportive magic, and mainly blocks all passages before overflowing, and spilling into the main room.

(the rough passage leading into the floor is not original - it was carved to guide treasure-hunters into the maze)


Well, it's a ways off your actual question, but it's a good way for an efreeti to spend permanent image uses, and that's what matters. It could even cast new illusions into the dungeon from above.

[Uncle Pine]

I love these ideas. Thanks a lot for them, as well as the rules clarification!