monsters: Which are at the top of their CR?

[The Shadowdove]

Hey forum-lurkers,

Just wanted to say that I've always discarded swarms as a DM. They never seemed interesting enough.

Last night I had a game where I attacked the party twice with swarms. The catch being that there's a strange large rat, spider, or Raven watching from just out of reach with a creepy amount of silent interest. These are imps in disguise, to be revealed next session.

During a long rest a rat swarm attacked. Almost killed the card on watch before waking the others.

Later they happened not to notice two swarms of spiders concealed among the bushes and trees. They put some to sleep, but I criticaled twice. One roll was 26, the other was from a weakened (half depleted) and did 13.

Two players unconscious halfway through the fight.

As a cr 1/2, they have 24+ health and do 4d4 damage, 2d4 if you've killed half of them or more.

Level one is dangerous in 5e... Even level 2 would be hard pressed if the players didn't roll well.

I didn't expect it to be a deadly encounter. Hard at most.


Any other monsters you've found to be surprisingly rough for their cr? I see assassin being brought up occasionally.


Thanks in advance, looking forward to seeing what you've experienced or know with your booksmarts.


-Dove

[Lombra]

3 swarms at level 2 during a long rest able to surprise the party is an unbalanced encounter not because of the swarms but because of the circumstances. CR and EXP won't build fights by themselves, envirorment plays a huge role.

[The Shadowdove]

3 swarms at level 2 during a long rest able to surprise the party is an unbalanced encounter not because of the swarms but because of the circumstances. CR and EXP won't build fights by themselves, envirorment plays a huge role.

Ah sorry maybe I worded it poorly.

There was one rat swarm during a long rest. The person in watch was trying to chase them away before they attacked. No surprise.

Later, while progressing toward a tower, they failed perception checks. Two swarms + surprise round.

It was halfway through the already engaged battle though that the players were hit with criticals. After weakening one of the swarms to less than half strength

[Zanthy1]

Intellect devourers and rust monsters. They have low hp and AC, but when they hit they can do some serious damage to a party.

[Potato_Priest]

Quicklings from volo's guide are very under-rated. They are a CR 1 with AC 16, 3x multiattack at +8 to hit for 8.5 damage apiece, 120 ft movement rate, and players have disadvantage on all attack rolls against them. They only have 10 health, but with their +6 dexterity modifier, they are generally very likely to win initiative and even potentially get a surprise round. If they get a surprise round and win initiative, they can very plausibly cut down 2 to 3 level 1 party members before you even get to act.

Of course, you're only going to get murdered by a quickling if your DM doesn't understand their flavor and behavior patterns. (They're more mischievous than murderous), but I can see plenty of DMs ignoring that fact.

[MrStabby]

A lot depends on the circumstances for some enemies.

If the PCs go out vampire hunting, prepare light spells and attack a vampire during the day time then the vampire is pretty easy. If the vampire is a random encounter half way through an adventuring day then it is much tougher to deal with.

That said there are some that stand out.

I think for example dragon wyrmlings. A green dragon wyrmling at CR2 is a big threat. It flies, it is smarter than an average human, it has a breath weapon attack that does as much damage as a fireball to an area of effect and it's bite damage isn't trivial either.

For a level appropriate party of 4 level 2 characters for a medium encounter - how many are going to survive 6d6 damage? Even 6d6/2 for a save is no joke at level 2 - this is likely to be more HP than the party wizard has. Extra problems when the party is melee focussed and can't fly to catch the dragon - perennial guerilla warfare and running off for the breath attack to recharge. At level 2 this is pretty tough to stop.



Shadows can be mean. CR 1/2.

Strength drain and a condition that zero str kills... At d4 drained per hit any character that dumped str can be downed in 2 hits. At 16 HP it isn't tough but is resistant/immune to a huge amount. At CR 1/2 you can face these without magical weapons. Add on top of that their abilities to ambush well in darkness or dim light.


Bugbears can be rough. Each attack is so much damage from a CR1 creature that it can demolish low level adventurers with luck on its side.

Banshees can demolish whole parties even at high levels if there are multiple of them. Or a banshee as part of an encouter with other enemies.

[Potato_Priest]

Shadows can be mean. CR 1/2.

Strength drain and a condition that zero str kills... At d4 drained per hit any character that dumped str can be downed in 2 hits. At 16 HP it isn't tough but is resistant/immune to a huge amount. At CR 1/2 you can face these without magical weapons. Add on top of that their abilities to ambush well in darkness or dim light.


Ooh, I forgot about these. At level 5, in a 2-man party I once had to fight a couple of these and a flesh golem at the same time. The strength sapping is reeeally nasty. If you're a strength character, you take a cumulative penalty to attacks and damage on a hit, and as any other kind of character, a few hits will kill you.

[INDYSTAR188]

I think Magma Mephits are pretty tough for a CR 1/2 creature. They fly, have 22 hp, are stealthy, blow up when they die, can cast Heat Metal 1/day and have a fire breath.

[MrStabby]

Ooh, I forgot about these. At level 5, in a 2-man party I once had to fight a couple of these and a flesh golem at the same time. The strength sapping is reeeally nasty. If you're a strength character, you take a cumulative penalty to attacks and damage on a hit, and as any other kind of character, a few hits will kill you.

I DMed a group in a shadow-forest with shadows and spiders. That was a brutal combination. Restrained in spiders webs, needing str to get out - disadvantage on attacks and advantage on attacks against them between poisoned and restrained. What on paper was an easy to medium encounter nearly killed the lot of them.

[The Shadowdove]

Do you think spined devil could be a challenge for a level one or two four person party with a balanced/standard composition?

I'm thinking of making it an upcoming encounter. The party is at the tail end of level one and 'may' be level two before they'd encounter it.

[Deleted]

Circumstance means more than CR/XP.

Party makeup means more than CR/XP.

With the right under-leveled party and the right circumstances, you get the Batman Effect. The Batman Effect is essentially someone or something wins when they really shouldn't. This usually results from mary-sue type stuff in comics but can also come from other reasons.

One being an unbalanced game (:p) but also because there are typically 3 to 6 minds (players) coming up with solutions with a bunch of options going up against 1 mind (DM) who has set up all their options and stuff in advance.


===

The same thing can be true the opposite way. No matter what level the players are on, you can make anything scary. Tucker's Kobolds has always been a thing after all.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Wow I guess I should have read further down the page before posting...I just posted about an experience where 4 swarms of poisonous snakes (CR 2) were WAY more of a threat to 4 level 6s than the spirit naga (CR 8) that accompanied the swarms. That poison damage is painful (even worse on a crit with a failed save).

[Slayn82]

Flameskull is a deadly monster. Flying, AOE spells, long range 2x fire attacks, 40 hp, lots of damage resistances and immunities, can activate traps. And it respaws after 1 hour.

Very intelligent and hostile, so it may choose to follow the party and attacks when you meet another enemy, and can target the cleric and other casters first. For a CR 4 monster, I would rather fight a couple Elephants or elementals.

[Vogonjeltz]

Hey forum-lurkers,

Just wanted to say that I've always discarded swarms as a DM. They never seemed interesting enough.

Last night I had a game where I attacked the party twice with swarms. The catch being that there's a strange large rat, spider, or Raven watching from just out of reach with a creepy amount of silent interest. These are imps in disguise, to be revealed next session.

During a long rest a rat swarm attacked. Almost killed the card on watch before waking the others.

Later they happened not to notice two swarms of spiders concealed among the bushes and trees. They put some to sleep, but I criticaled twice. One roll was 26, the other was from a weakened (half depleted) and did 13.

Two players unconscious halfway through the fight.

As a cr 1/2, they have 24+ health and do 4d4 damage, 2d4 if you've killed half of them or more.

Level one is dangerous in 5e... Even level 2 would be hard pressed if the players didn't roll well.

I didn't expect it to be a deadly encounter. Hard at most.


Any other monsters you've found to be surprisingly rough for their cr? I see assassin being brought up occasionally.


Thanks in advance, looking forward to seeing what you've experienced or know with your booksmarts.


-Dove

Per the DMG, Hard means that one or more characters could be taken out, and one or more might even die.
Deadly means it's likely to be straight up lethal to one or more. Not just getting knocked out.

It's not that swarms are overly dangeous for their CR, it's just that a Hard fight is actually quite dangerous.

[fbelanger]

Banshee can make TPK with bad rolls on saves.

[fbelanger]

Mind flayed can be nasty.
DC 15 int saving throw can be tough to succeed for a lot of classes, especially if you got a dump 8.

[Deleted]

Mind flayed can be nasty.
DC 15 int saving throw can be tough to succeed for a lot of classes, especially if you got a dump 8.

I feel you should at least get a Constitution/Strength or Dexterity save for that instead of an Intelligence save.

Strength/Constitution to resist getting a part of your body pulled away from you or dexterity so you can dodge the brain suckage.

The saving throw system is whack.

[tomato]

Level-appropriate combats against Catoblepas (Volo's Guide) when the party isn't specifically and immediately prepared for combat against Catoblepas are one-sided affairs that can easily end up in multiple party member deaths.

It's a CR5 large monstrosity. It has a Recharge 5-6 death ray attack that does 8d8 (36 avg) necrotic damage against a target that it can see unless it can pass a DC16 con saving throw. If the target fails that saving throw by 5 or more, then the damage becomes 64 damage. If a target is reduced to 0 hp by this ray, then they die outright (no death saves).

They also have a 10-foot radius stench that poisons anyone that starts their turn within 5 squares, and a massive tail whip attack that can deal substantial damage, even without the death ray.

What happens here is that the party will likely sneak up on it, attack it, and unless they manage their positioning, movement, and use spells to properly buff saving throws and deny opportunity attacks, they're going to die.

To put that death ray into context, a level 5 fighter is going have between 34 and 49 hp, depending on starting Con score, and anywhere from a +3 to a +6 to their constitution saving throw. This means that they they fail their saving throw anywhere from 45% to 65% of the time, and they fail by 5 or more 25% to 40% of the time. Averaging out, that means that this monster is going to one-shot all but the toughest builds about 50% of the time. A raging bear totem barbarian can survive the one-shot, but can't take a second similar hit.

Any party member that isn't the absolute toughest build in the game will fair much, much worse.

Moreover, this monster has 84 hp! Combine that with the 10 foot poison aura, the monster's powerful melee attacks, and its 30 feet of movement, and you're probably looking at no less than two party members dying outright.

The only way I can imagine beating the Catoblepas fairly is if the DM gives the party some insight to the monster ahead of combat and allows preparation, foreknowledge of the monster's capabilities, has all their resources available, and the right party composition. The party wants as much ranged damage as they can manage and the ability to end their turn out of the line of sight. This likely means crossbow/longbow builds with sharpshooter and bless, this means pillars or other physical obstructions that disrupt line of sight. They also need a traditional healer who is not "up in the mix" but rather hanging back, providing action-inefficient healing spells as soon as a party member survives a hit. Bless is probably the most helpful thing a cleric can provide here. Any melee not named "raging bear totem barbarian" will probably need to just hang back and let the ranged characters do their work.

Even then, the DM is going to need to decide early on whether he wants to kill party or whether he wants them to succeed before choosing the Catoblepas's death ray targets. Assuming that everyone in the party manages to stay out of LoS, the Catoblepas will, on round 2, just ready it's death ray for the first person it sees. Unless they get fairly lucky (or the party arranges for the barbarian specifically to tank this first hit) the person highest in initiative order will probably get one-shot (a rogue basically has a 75% chance of failing the saving throw (which will be a nearly guaranteed one-shot), and a 40-50% chance of catastrophically failing initially.

From there, assuming that the party lands the appropriate amount of hits for a four-member (three now), level 5 party, we can probably expect at least one more death ray. If the party doesn't kill the Catoblepas then, then you're potentially looking at a TPK, depending (again) on remaining party composition and equipment.

It's a brutal monster that harkens back to 1st and 2nd edition. Good luck!

[Potato_Priest]

Level-appropriate combats against Catoblepas (Volo's Guide) when the party isn't specifically and immediately prepared for combat against Catoblepas are one-sided affairs that can easily end up in multiple party member deaths.


I threw 2 level 5 players up against a Catoblepas, and neither of them was even knocked unconscious. The 2 players were, admittedly, a Storm fury barbarian and a sharpshooter who had just come out of a long rest, but simply by virtue of the Catoblepas' lack of multiattack, they were able to action economy it to death. It is true, however, that it easily could have 1-shot them if the sharpshooter did worse on the one eye ray save, but they failed by less than 5 and were fine.

In my experience, with a 4-person level 5 party, 84 health is about 1 round of attacks, so while the Catoblepas might be a significant threat if it wins initiative/gets surprise and gets lucky eye ray recharges, it's not going to be alive for very long.

[Vogonjeltz]

Moreover, this monster has 84 hp! Combine that with the 10 foot poison aura, the monster's powerful melee attacks, and its 30 feet of movement, and you're probably looking at no less than two party members dying outright.

Uhm, it can't use its death ray attack more than 30 feet away and it only moves 30 feet. Any character that has a ranged attack > 30 feet and who isn't crippled can kill it without taking a lick of damage.

The danger is only if it makes it into melee, but that's a fairly huge if, and based on the size of the creature and its total lack of stealth, incredibly unlikely.

This is one of those monsters where the correct method for attacking is to crack out your ranged option (Whatever it is, every single class has one and starts with it) and plink away until the monstrosity is dead.