&*(&(*& Snakes in the @#$@#$ sewers (Or Lying CRs)

[PhoenixPhyre]

Subtitle: How I learned that swarms have a misleading CR

So swarms of poisonous snakes are CR 2. Turns out that's a bit...variable. Here's the situation:

The party of 4 6th level characters (Goo Tomelock, AT Rogue, Land Druid, Open Hand Monk) plus one homebrewed NPC (~CR 1/2) were in the sewers, walking along a 5-foot wide walkway with knee-deep water on one side and a wall at the other. There they encounter a force set to guard the area:

1 Spirit Naga (CR 8)
4 Swarms of Poisonous Snakes (CR 2)

In total, this is a Deadly+ encounter for them, but it's the first of the day, and they have very good stat rolls (18 or 20 in primary stats after ASI, no negatives at all). They blew through an earlier encounter (in another session) against similar or worse odds, so I expected a reasonable fight but no real danger. They ganged up on the Naga and nuked it quickly, only taking half damage from a Blight. No big deal. Then the snakes came into play. A single crit attack with a failed CON save vs poison took the druid from healthy to 0 (38 damage total). Two more on the rogue and the monk ate most of their health and the physical damage was halved, so it took a long time to kill them. I was merciful and decided that since the snakes had been coerced magically to protect the sewers, they would go for the living and not massacre the druid. The party survived, but it was way worse than I thought. I thought the Naga would be the threat.

What other creatures have difficulty that can be variable like that? Any other ones where the CR doesn't really indicate the threat level? Things with strength/max HP drain, intellect devourers, anything else?

[MrStabby]

This is what happens if you don't prepare area of effect spells for the day.

Party composition means you are missing staples like spirit guardians and fireball. Spells like this can help a lot.

[Specter]

This is why I say the CR is dead.

[ShikomeKidoMi]

What other creatures have difficulty that can be variable like that? Any other ones where the CR doesn't really indicate the threat level? Things with strength/max HP drain, intellect devourers, anything else?

The truth is that in many, many cases, party composition effects CR substantially. That's why it's a guideline to start with and you need to take your party's specific abilities into account. It's not just that some monsters are far harder if you lack certain abilities, others can be rendered far easier. Some monster abilities that can really swing encounters include: Flight+Ranged attacks, Resistance/Immunity to nonmagic weapons, and ability damage.

There's one more question I'd like to raise, given that this Deadly+ encounter was, well, deadly, is it really a case of the CR being deceptive here or on the fight they blew through easily?

[Dr. Cliché]

The ones that most stood out for me was Fire Snakes and Salamanders especially.

Taking d6 or 2d6 damage every time you hit them in melee adds up damn quickly (especially when your party has a lot of fighter-type characters).

What's more, they have good hp and resistance to all physical damage from nonmagical sources. So, the fighter is generally hitting them with an attack and taking the same amount of damage back. And that's before you get into the actual attacks of the Salamanders themselves - which do significant amounts of damage.

I guess the lesson is 'beware of monsters that can deal damage outside of initiative'.

[MrStabby]

The ones that most stood out for me was Fire Snakes and Salamanders especially.

Taking d6 or 2d6 damage every time you hit them in melee adds up damn quickly (especially when your party has a lot of fighter-type characters).

What's more, they have good hp and resistance to all physical damage from nonmagical sources. So, the fighter is generally hitting them with an attack and taking the same amount of damage back. And that's before you get into the actual attacks of the Salamanders themselves - which do significant amounts of damage.

I guess the lesson is 'beware of monsters that can deal damage outside of initiative'.

I partially agree with this - certainly beware of monsters that can deal damage other than on their turn. Reactions and so on add a lot to the effectiveness of a creature.

The damage to the person hitting the salamanders is less of an issue I find. It requires the attacker to be within 5ft so most polearms are fine, most ranged weapons are fine and even strength based martial classes can throw javelins. Yes it might mean you attack with a D8 weapon rather than your +2 greatsword so do half damage, but you can still take it down without too much trouble. Casters on the other hand get it easy. If they have selected control spells it is easy - the salamander cant attack at range without throwing it's spear and it's saves are generally terrible. If they have selected spells of varying damage types then they are also able to target it's cold vulnerability.

If a salamander does get the drop on a party though, it can do a lot of nasty things very quickly - I won't deny that. The ability to grapple without a strength check or use of an action of any type (other than the tail attack it would do anyway) is powerful for keeping low level characters in melee range of the salamander as well as dragging them off. If there are any dangerous terrain features nearby then salamanders do take a step up in threat level.

[Volomon]

The CR isn't dead it was exactly correct this is a deadly encounter. Not only that but you failed to realize this encounter is 2x the deadly limit.

The CR for this encounter is 13 to make it medium difficulty.

Don't pit your group against level 13 stuff....

[PhoenixPhyre]

The CR isn't dead it was exactly correct this is a deadly encounter. Not only that but you failed to realize this encounter is 2x the deadly limit.

The CR for this encounter is 13 to make it medium difficulty.

Don't pit your group against level 13 stuff....

I know it was a deadly encounter per CR. That part was by design. Based on past experience this party punches well above their weight.

My wonderment was at the relative strengths of the individual components. The swarms were more effective than planned, and the Naga was much less effective. The encounter as a whole was right about where I planned it to be, but for different reasons than I had thought.

[Vogonjeltz]

Subtitle: How I learned that swarms have a misleading CR

You didn't learn that, you just learned not to throw two deadly encounters against a party at the same time. (Unless you realized what you were doing in the first place...in which case I don't understand your complaint).

[Mellack]

Subtitle: How I learned that swarms have a misleading CR


What other creatures have difficulty that can be variable like that? Any other ones where the CR doesn't really indicate the threat level? Things with strength/max HP drain, intellect devourers, anything else?

It is not that swarms have a misleading CR. Any encounter can vary based on party build vs monster abilities. The snakes would have been a cakewalk with a good AoE power. Salamanders are easy if you have fire resistance but terrible if you are melee focused. Any encounter has to be adjusted to the team.

[Cespenar]

As everyone said, party composition.

Aside from those, simple things like who ambushed who, is the enemy spellcaster immediately gankable, are the enemies in their home turf, etc. can make all the difference in the world, regardless of the CRs.

[SharkForce]

deadly means that if the party is unlucky or makes poor decisions, someone might die.

as in, there's a chance. so it's perfectly fine that one deadly encounter (which they either had better luck or better decisions) turns out absolutely fine but another deadly encounter causes serious problems. i would imagine the encounter would have looked different had the druid not been KO'd right off the bat, for example. or if the party had decided that since a swarm of snakes is not particularly fast and has no ranged attacks they should fall back a bit and take advantage of those fairly obvious weaknesses, rather than sticking around after the yuan-ti was dealt with (and perhaps even hope that the snakes would disperse naturally if that particular yuan-ti was controlling them somehow).

incidentally, for the record, regarding that crit on the druid...

http://www.sageadvice.eu/?s=poison+critical

and in particular:

http://www.sageadvice.eu/2014/11/24/critical-poison/

it sounds like you didn't apply that ruling ;)

[Foxhound438]

thugs are pretty poorly CR'd. If you don't have someone on your team abusing their low AC with GWM or SS, their high HP will make them way too hard for a party of low level PC's.

[Malifice]

I know it was a deadly encounter per CR. That part was by design. Based on past experience this party punches well above their weight.

My wonderment was at the relative strengths of the individual components. The swarms were more effective than planned, and the Naga was much less effective. The encounter as a whole was right about where I planned it to be, but for different reasons than I had thought.

Isnt that more indicative of the parties tactics though.

They focussed fire on the Naga (dropping it quickly) and then lost a PC to a crit from one of the mooks.

A 6th level party should have been able to fireball those mooks (especially if fully rested). A Paladin would make short work with smites as well (they dont have resistance vs radiant damage).