Cleric combat stategy

[Foxhound438]

So we all by now probably know about how most of the time clerics can do fine in combat by just starting out with spirit guardians in any fight that looks at all hard, and on following rounds use either your cantrip or divine strike and spiritual weapon to deal decent to good damage.

Off the top of my head, the only other strategy that seems as effective is tempest cleric using call lightning and their maximize channel. The end result there is more damage right off, but less in later rounds since they don't get damage from both their concentration spell and their weapon attack at the same time. In any given situation this could be better or could be worse, but at the end of the day it's a "side grade" to the normal plan.

The other idea I had was for your arcane cleric to pick up sunbeam, since it does the same damage at a given spell level as the guardians, but with a potent tack on effect.



So my question is this: what's your go-to cleric fighting strategy? do you do something else besides spirit guardians with your level 3+ slots in every fight? do you just save them to heal?

As a side question, do you bother upcasting spiritual weapon? I feel like the scaling is too small to make it worth spending L4's and L6's, but at any given level throwing in an extra d8+5 for damage seems fine when the cost is a lowly L2 slot...

[Ziegander]

Spirit Guardians is a good spell, no doubt, but just casting it at the beginning of every combat seems like a terrible idea. It's got a 15 foot radius. At best maybe you're AoE damaging two or three enemies per turn while you close to melee for Divine Strike. At worst you're wasting a spell slot and probably one or two turns concentration while you plink with Sacred Flame.

So, I'm going to go out on a limb and assume that most people have a much more varied combat routine than that as Cleric players. Enhance Ability, Hold Person, Silence, Bestow Curse, and Revivify, just to name a few, all have powerful combat applications. You already mentioned Spiritual Weapon, which is fantastic.

From Domain Spell Lists you can get Suggestion, Flaming Sphere, Fireball, Mirror Image, Blink, or Crusader's Mantle, all great combat spells. Relying on just one concentration spell with a 15 foot radius for all of your combat needs seems silly to me.

As far as upcasting Spiritual Weapon, nah, I probably wouldn't, but I suppose it's not a terrible use of a 4th level slot either. It basically increases the damage per hit by 33%, and that's not nothing.

[Potato_Priest]

I've played along side a war cleric who used his bonus action attacks and channel divinity to great effect in conjunction with the great weapon master feat. He was the top Damage Dealer in levels 1-4, and there were 2 paladins in the party. He fell a little behind once the paladins got multiattack, but with Haste from a wizard he was back on top soon enough.

[Foxhound438]

*snip*

jesus christ

yes, there is nuance to what to do in combat. Thank you, captain obvious, I'll remember when I'm engaged from 100' away by bowmen not to just cast spirit guardians for no reason.

[Vaz]

Well you're a bit of a ****. Not interested in helping you any more after that post to someone who provided very valid information amd genuinely trying to help.

Enjoy.

[solidork]

My War Cleric does pretty much what you described, with a little more emphasis on the melee because I've got a custom magic item that lets me cast Booming Blade. I've had two fights where Blindness/Deafness has been instrumental in our victory. I want to try out Command, since it fits the flavor of my character shouting out orders on the battlefield.

[Zene]

Yeah on my (life) cleric, when damage is the order of the day, I find myself usually doing SG round 1, Shillelagh and Booming Blade round 2, SW and BB in subsequent rounds. Interrupting the sequence to bring dropped allies back up with various things.

I've experimented with other plays (like subbing one or more parts of the above sequence with buffing/debuffing, etc) and in a few cases that's been a better way to go. But I'm surprised at how often straight damage is the best option. I would think, for example, that in a lot of situations Bless/Hold Person instead of SG would result in more dpr overall and faster kills, but I've found it rarely does.

In situations where I know I'll need to focus on healing (which are rare), I instead hang back, Beacon of Hope (if I need to maximize healing output) or Bless (if it's more a matter of just needing to pick up dropped folks quickly), and drop in SW/Guiding Bolts/Sacred Flames when I have spare actions/bonus actions. No idea if that's optimal --I find the plethora of options open to a cleric make optimization of actions a pretty tough call-- but it just helped my party beat a beyond-deadly rated encounter so I'm pretty happy with it.

[Foxhound438]

My War Cleric does pretty much what you described, with a little more emphasis on the melee because I've got a custom magic item that lets me cast Booming Blade. I've had two fights where Blindness/Deafness has been instrumental in our victory. I want to try out Command, since it fits the flavor of my character shouting out orders on the battlefield.

I do like the weapon cantrips on divine strike clerics, since they do more damage than just potent cast sacred flame in the end. The opportunity cost is pretty low as well, since even if you don't get it from an item you can get them from a feat or a 1 level dip (preferably the prior).

Command seems like it could be really effective since you can shut a thing out of its turn entirely, and is probably a good enough 1-stop utility shop that it's worth having prepared all the time.

Blindness/deafness also seems like a really good option since it gives a long duration effect without needing concentration.

[BW022]

Foxhound438,

Clerics are reasonably versatile. What tactics you use would depend upon the cleric build, other party members, situation, opponents, preparations, etc.

Utility Clerics make a reasonable utility character, especially with certain domains. They know all spells, can prepare a good number (especially with domains), can ritual cast prepared spells, and often have enough slots to prepare spells such as detect magic, create or destroy water, locate object, zone of truth, water walk, etc. which many other spell casters (bards, warlocks, sorcerers, rangers, paladins, etc.) are not likely to have or prepare. Key is planning... if you know a river crossing is coming up tomorrow... pray for water walk.

Buffing Prime roll for clerics is buffing. Bless, shield of faith, enhance ability, etc. can really be powerful if used correctly. If you have a balanced party (tank, damage dealers, and control caster) then this is typically your best combat roll. Shield of faith on the tank, enhance ability (dexterity) on the rogue, and protection from energy on the wizard.

Tanking If you have heavy armor, or really have no tank, most clerics are pretty reasonable in melee. You can use reasonable weapons, have a good AC, have spells to protect you, typically enough hit points to last, and casting spells in melee isn't normally that bad for you -- sacred flame and most spells aren't ranged attacks. Even if you have a tank, you can off tank (if they get incapacitated), wall up (to prevent folks from moving around the tank), and/or block secondary creatures if attacked from the rear.

Offensive Not a primary role, but if everything else is going well... sacred flame, weapons, or spells such as guiding bolt, spiritual weapon, etc. can do a fair baseline of damage.

Limited Control Clerics don't have many, but a number of spells are reasonable, especially against single targets -- hold person, blindness/deafness, banishment, etc. can take single opponents out of a fight quickly.

Debuffing Spells such as bane, silence, bestow curse, etc. can be extremely powerful.

Healing Obvious. Ideally, it is better to prevent damage or kill/debuff creatures before they can do damage, but there are times when healing is necessary. Sometimes a tank just can't be protected and your best option is to keep them standing while others do the damage. Removing conditions, even if outside combat, or the next day... is still useful.


Most clerics can do most or all of these, even with the damage build. Which you should focus on... depends upon your party. If you are missing a tank... then you should aim toward filling that role (heavy armor, shield, defensive spells, maybe the warcaster feat, etc.) If you are missing a wizard or sorcerer, maybe you focus on crowd control and utility spells. If you are missing a rogue, maybe you air at buffing the ranger or monk and taking spells such as locate traps, silence, etc. If you have a nice balanced party... then aim at buffs, debuffs, and extra damage dealing.

[Foxhound438]

Yeah on my (life) cleric, when damage is the order of the day, I find myself usually doing SG round 1, Shillelagh and Booming Blade round 2, SW and BB in subsequent rounds. Interrupting the sequence to bring dropped allies back up with various things.

I've experimented with other plays (like subbing one or more parts of the above sequence with buffing/debuffing, etc) and in a few cases that's been a better way to go. But I'm surprised at how often straight damage is the best option. I would think, for example, that in a lot of situations Bless/Hold Person instead of SG would result in more dpr overall and faster kills, but I've found it rarely does.

In situations where I know I'll need to focus on healing (which are rare), I instead hang back, Beacon of Hope (if I need to maximize healing output) or Bless (if it's more a matter of just needing to pick up dropped folks quickly), and drop in SW/Guiding Bolts/Sacred Flames when I have spare actions/bonus actions. No idea if that's optimal --I find the plethora of options open to a cleric make optimization of actions a pretty tough call-- but it just helped my party beat a beyond-deadly rated encounter so I'm pretty happy with it.

Beacon of hope certainly seems like it could put in a lot of work, but at the same time it might be a better spent slot to throw out the mass healing word. I'll probably do some math to see how many healing spells you need to spend to make the beacon more efficient on heals, but in any case the advantage on wis saves seems powerful against a lot of things (beholders come to mind).

shillelagh with weapon cantrips also seems really good. I'm interested to know what you took to get both- on a life cleric I assume you might have grabbed MI: druid for the free 40HP per day goodberry, but I'm not sure on the BB after that- spell sniper seems like it could work nicely just to get the spell, though the range boost would more often than not be wasted.

[Foxhound438]

Buffing Prime roll for clerics is buffing. Bless, shield of faith, enhance ability, etc. can really be powerful if used correctly. If you have a balanced party (tank, damage dealers, and control caster) then this is typically your best combat roll. Shield of faith on the tank, enhance ability (dexterity) on the rogue, and protection from energy on the wizard.


unfortunately those are all concentration spells, so you would have to pick one. I personally would probably default to bless if I wanted to buff as my main role, since it's multiple targets and broadly applicable.

The rest seems pretty sound. As far as filling roles goes, it's something that I often do but in a world where I get to pick first I'd probably go with some split between tanking and damage, ultimately.

[Zene]

Beacon of hope certainly seems like it could put in a lot of work, but at the same time it might be a better spent slot to throw out the mass healing word. I'll probably do some math to see how many healing spells you need to spend to make the beacon more efficient on heals, but in any case the advantage on wis saves seems powerful against a lot of things (beholders come to mind).


I'd definitely be interested in seeing the numbers on that. As a life cleric with a familiar (see below) I pump out my biggest single-target healing via cure wounds, so the beacon means instead of an average of, for example, 15 for a 2nd-level cure wounds, it'll heal 24. If I'm healing every round it adds up pretty quick, especially since I'm only doing this is situations where lots of damage is being tossed out. It'll have much less of an impact on healing word given the smaller die.

But the other cool thing about Beacon --which would be hard to figure into calcs-- is that it applies to all healing, not just healing you dish out. So the bard/druid/ranger that tosses out a heal here or there gets a few extra points on it, as would anyone drinking healing potions, the fighter using second wind, the moon druid using slots to self-heal, etc. I tend to play in AL groups with 5-6 other players usually, so the bigger group means better returns on the spell slot too; YMMV.



shillelagh with weapon cantrips also seems really good. I'm interested to know what you took to get both- on a life cleric I assume you might have grabbed MI: druid for the free 40HP per day goodberry.

Yeah vHuman with MI as the starting feat (goodberry/shillelagh/thorn whip) and a 1-level Wizard dip (primarily for BB, Find Familiar, Shield, Absorb Elements, and the ability to ritual cast useful 1st-level spells without having them prepared).

The goal was to make a mostly-SAD character that was pretty good a filling a dpr, healing, or tanking role, for the varying group makeups of AL play. It's worked out pretty well so far--it's more than holding its own with each of those roles, which is better than I'd hoped. Thorn whip has been crazily useful as a tank and just for creative field control (like pulling a target adjacent to three melee'ers, or into a fissure, off a mount, out of a grapple, etc). Touch-casting Cure Wounds through my familiar no matter where I am on the battlefield has also been surprisingly useful.

That said, while the benefits have been greater than expected, so have the downsides. I have no shortage of uses for bonus actions, so having to use an early one on shillelagh instead of, say, an extra round of SW damage does sting. I'm also finding having to wait an extra level on spell progression particularly painful on a cleric. At 5 I really missed SG, and now at 7 I'm really missing Banishment. And I've also found that the Life cleric's healing boosts are nice, but not really necessary; the cleric chassis itself already has all the healing tools it needs. If I had to do it over, I'd consider either 1) going Nature for Shillelagh to free up a feat; or 2) going Arcana, skipping the Wizard dip, and giving up the tank role in exchange for better dpr while maintaining healing and utility. (plus getting freaking Wish at 17)

[Foxhound438]

But the other cool thing about Beacon --which would be hard to figure into calcs-- is that it applies to all healing, not just healing you dish out. So the bard/druid/ranger that tosses out a heal here or there gets a few extra points on it, as would anyone drinking healing potions, the fighter using second wind, the moon druid using slots to self-heal, etc. I tend to play in AL groups with 5-6 other players usually, so the bigger group means better returns on the spell slot too; YMMV.


that also seems like nice synergy. Man I wish we could have pathfinder lay on hands...

Anyways, I feel like arcane cleric getting lightning lure is a pretty solid, albeit less numerically advantageous, alternative to thorn whip. Half the range and pull, but on a strength save rather than an attack roll. I feel like str is the right save for it to be on, too, since most things that are going to try to escape are probably high dex/ low str ranged things or casters. You can still get a weapon cantrip as well, but I might be more tempted to pick up acid splash or blade burst to take advantage of multiple hits with potent cantrip.

Find familiar seems like a really solid pickup for a nature cleric on MI since you also can get weapon cantrips, and having ranged cure wounds seems neat. I'm not sure how often it'd be more good than using healing word, but I guess with Spiritual Weapon online it's more or less a toss up between slightly more damage vs. slightly more healing for a significant level range.

[Saggo]

I'd consider either 1) going Nature for Shillelagh to free up a feat; or 2) going Arcana, skipping the Wizard dip, and giving up the tank role in exchange for better dpr while maintaining healing and utility. (plus getting freaking Wish at 17)

You can use Nature to skip the Wizard dip, too. Keep Mage Initiate but use it to get BB/Find Familiar instead.

[solidork]

So, I have a couple of rules questions that I am curious to hear people's thoughts on. I've gotten my DMs own rulings and I'm fine with those but I am curious nonetheless.

How does Spirit Guardians interact with Command? Can you command people to enter the radius of Spirit Guardians? My DM ruled yes on the grounds that Spirit Guardians isn't obviously harmful in the same way jumping off a cliff/into lava would be because the actual mechanics of Spirit Guardians is a mystery to most enemies.

How exactly do you handle Spirit Guardian's movement impairing effects? For example, suppose I have Spirit Guardians active and there is an enemy with a speed of 30' who is 30' away from me. They decide that they want to move up to me and attack, so they crosse the first 15' normally and then enters the radius of the spell. The way we are ruling it is that once they step into the radius his speed drops to 15', and since they have already moved 20' this round, they can't move anymore unless they dash. If they dashe towards me, they can still end up next to me. I have no idea what is supposed to happen if they dash and then tries to leave the area. I'm also not sure what would happen if an enemy somehow anticipated the slowing effect and dashed at the start of their turn.

[Foxhound438]

So, I have a couple of rules questions that I am curious to hear people's thoughts on. I've gotten my DMs own rulings and I'm fine with those but I am curious nonetheless.

How does Spirit Guardians interact with Command? Can you command people to enter the radius of Spirit Guardians? My DM ruled yes on the grounds that Spirit Guardians isn't obviously harmful in the same way jumping off a cliff/into lava would be because the actual mechanics of Spirit Guardians is a mystery to most enemies.

How exactly do you handle Spirit Guardian's movement impairing effects? For example, suppose I have Spirit Guardians active and there is an enemy with a speed of 30' who is 30' away from me. They decide that they want to move up to me and attack, so they crosse the first 15' normally and then enters the radius of the spell. The way we are ruling it is that once they step into the radius his speed drops to 15', and since they have already moved 20' this round, they can't move anymore unless they dash. If they dashe towards me, they can still end up next to me. I have no idea what is supposed to happen if they dash and then tries to leave the area. I'm also not sure what would happen if an enemy somehow anticipated the slowing effect and dashed at the start of their turn.

for the first I'd say some enemies would know (intelligent humanoids, some of the more powerful "boss" enemies could have seen it in their past), but for those that wouldn't (bears, sometimes orcs) they would enter the area.

For the second, it says somewhere in the PHB that if a thing's speed changes for some reason, you determine the percentage they've already used, and then they have the remaining percentage of the new speed to use. So for example, after moving 15' into the SG effect they would drop to a 15' speed, but they've used half and thus can move another 7.5 feet. For something that has 40' of speed, if it moves 15' to the edge of the SG, it has half of its remaining movement (40 - 15 = 25; 25/2 = 12.5').

[Paeleus]

I've just started playing a 3rd level War Cleric (Varman - Resilient[DEX]). I have a 13 in STR but am planning on maxing DEX and Wisdom. I said screw the Mace/Hammer and Crossbow and get a longbow (more so for flavor). My plan is to Divine Favor my Long Bow for the first couple small encounters, and then trade the bow for a shield to wade into melee for to heal/maintain the Bearbarian and Spiritual Weapon/Inflict Wounds/Sacred Flame/Guiding Bolt any mook or baddie whose around, whatever is needed.

Side question, does this seem like I'm going to run out of resources when I need them most?

[Foxhound438]

Side question, does this seem like I'm going to run out of resources when I need them most?

maybe? Most of the things you mention are L1 spells, so as you get into higher levels I'd think the slots used on those would be worth just spending without worrying. At a point I feel that casters have enough slots that they can just use L1 and 2 spells like cantrips early in the day. I'd personally be a bit more frugal before hitting level 5 though.

[RulesJD]

Normally, exactly as described, except not Call Lightning.

Additionally things I do:

1. Level dip into Sorc to pickup Chromatic Orb and later Lightning Bolt. Chromatic Orb is some of the best single target damage you can get in the game with Maximized Thunder/Lightning damage (starting out at 24, then +8 per level).

2. Inflict Wounds. At 3d10 it's average of 16.5 damage is a pretty great use of a level 1 spell. Each upcast slot adds 5.5, which is one of the highest upcasting increases in the game. Inflict Wounds + SG = 30 damage per turn against a single enemy, which is definitely respectable.



Hold Person is pretty trash in this game because so few enemies are "humanoid".

[Foxhound438]

Normally, exactly as described, except not Call Lightning.

Additionally things I do:

1. Level dip into Sorc to pickup Chromatic Orb and later Lightning Bolt. Chromatic Orb is some of the best single target damage you can get in the game with Maximized Thunder/Lightning damage (starting out at 24, then +8 per level).

2. Inflict Wounds. At 3d10 it's average of 16.5 damage is a pretty great use of a level 1 spell. Each upcast slot adds 5.5, which is one of the highest upcasting increases in the game. Inflict Wounds + SG = 30 damage per turn against a single enemy, which is definitely respectable.



Hold Person is pretty trash in this game because so few enemies are "humanoid".

I see. One tempest cleric I've seen uses shatter instead of chromatic orb since he doesn't want to split his levels, and that seems to be effective as well. I guess I like the aesthetic of call lightning a bit more than I should, though I still feel like it's pretty efficient on slots for the repeated burst damage while you have channel uses.

[RulesJD]

I see. One tempest cleric I've seen uses shatter instead of chromatic orb since he doesn't want to split his levels, and that seems to be effective as well. I guess I like the aesthetic of call lightning a bit more than I should, though I still feel like it's pretty efficient on slots for the repeated burst damage while you have channel uses.

I definitely use Shatter as well, especially while leveling up to Cleric 6. It's just that for single targets you get more bang for your spell slot via Chromatic Orb, there's no save for half, you don't have to worry about hitting allies, and you can make it lightning to also apply the forced movement. You could always miss completely with CO of course, but that's why you wait until you have Advantage or a low AC enemy.

[djreynolds]

Its a little difficult as my time as a cleric was in CoS.

Its crazy, but stuff like protection from evil on particular party members who just love to fail saves and give me an "un-healable" ulcer. Strahd took out multiple players with his charm... your wisdom save as a cleric should beat most spell DCs. Do not underestimate this spell, I only wish you could upcast this to include more party members... I hate undead and demons

I like warding bond, for a life cleric you can cast this on a tank or even a wizard with haste up and its concentration free

Silence is awesome... so good. But you have to get there first, so it is situational as a good DM will just bypass it.

Enhance... nothing

Bless was a good stand-by... for awhile, but really if you have GWM or SS types in range, I had a ranger

The save aspect is very good.. 1d4 ain't bad. But I'm here for those with GWM/SS to finish quick... maybe better for the paladin to cast this in melee

I found a good use for spirit guardians, it to use as a self-center AoE. Crazy. No.

In Melee...Spam bless or SoF and get into melee with the others (disciplined party needed here) and then BAM spirit guardians. The creature that stay, well they are dumb, but with the right party the creatures that leave.. , well they are dumb also, AoO galore. If it goes down... oh well, recast it again... just imagine it is a radiant fireball that doesn't damage your friends

If you can corner an enemy and then cast this... good idea.

Often it depends on the party members actions, I, 60% of the time ,spammed spirit guardians, as either that self-centered AoE as above or if I felt like hanging out in the back dropping cantrips or flame strike because the DM has us it a big area

In the rear with the gear, spirit guardians casting, is used as place of retreat for others. So I'm hanging out, perhaps the battle field is huge and I can't corner an enemy(s), but I can anchor a party spread out by allowing them with a safe zone where they can get healing and then go back. Healing word rocks but it has small range and you cannot always group a bunch of allies together.

So me and the wizard would hang out together in the middle of the fight, spamming ranged spells and the fighter with a booboo would come to me. But rarely would the wizard and I get attacked other than from archers or spells... hence the warding bond on the wizard. Also in that spot we would use dispel magic and the wizard would spam counterspell.

The only trouble is if the enemy had a nasty archer type or their own wizard... then you have to break ranks and flee.