Idea for a "natural attacker" kobold

[Particle_Man]

Start with a kobold (natch) and modify to get the bite attack (sadly losing the armour). Probably going to trade away the darkvision and light sensitivity too (low light vision is . . . ok).

Unchained Rogue class to start with, and one of the talents will be the one that makes sneak attacks cause bleed damage.

Feats: Draconic Aspect (1), Draconic Breath (3), Noxious Bite (5).

Now take two levels of ranger, going for the natural attack route:

Feats: Aspect of the Beast (claws) (Ranger bonus feat at 7), Flensing Strike (7).

Then take one level of Witch (White Haired Witch archtype). Then back to unchained Rogue unless I can think of something better.

Feats: Eldritch Claws (9), Tail Terror (11).

At this point I have 4 primary natural attacks (bite/claw/claw/hair) and one secondary natural attack (tail). All with sneak attack and a chance of a nauseating bite.

After that I am not sure if I can get any more natural attacks or make them beat more types of DR. Maybe I should take Draconic Wings and Draconic Paragon at 13 and 15 to get a natural fly speed. There is also a kobold feat that gives an extra 1d6 to sneak attacks to opponents that are nauseated, among other conditions.

I am presuming a very resource-poor campaign with little "down time" so I cannot depend on either making or finding magic weapons (a kobold tail attachment would be nice . . .).

Anyhow, what are your thoughts?

[Geddy2112]

I like it!

Bleeding strike is a very good rogue talent, and being able to stack bleed on sneak attack will make up for your attacks not doing much damage. It is a shame that at level 3 your ability to gain dex to damage only applies to one natural attack... you are going to need an agile enchantment to get dex to damage unless you are really going to buy into strength. Doable, but risky.

Have you considered the vivisectionist alchemist? You can get bleeding attack at level 2 as a discovery, you gain sneak attack all the same, plus alchemy, extracts, and the best part-a mutagen to increase your strength and armor. It has basically everything you want in a rogue but better, and scales much better. I could see 3-4 ranks for finesse training and debilitating injury, but even then I would go vivisectionist alchemist. You could also take the tumor familiar discovery to stack your familiar from witch and actually make it usable.

If you do stay in rogue, consider the carnivalist archtype-it is slower to progress sneak attack, but it nabs a familiar and lets the familiar use your sneak attack, so if you are both flanking it can really hurt. Consider the mauler archetype if you go this route.

As a witch, prepare enlarge person on yourself to become medium and increase your damage dice in combat.You can also prepare this as an alchemist extract.

Merciless precision is not all that good of a feat in my opinion, it is too situational and only gaining 1d6 is meh. Boon companion to increase your familiar ranks(and if you have enough from vivisectionist) you can get an improved familiar, which is always good.

[Gruftzwerg]

"Humanoid (dragonblood, reptilian): Kobolds are human-
oids with the dragonblood and reptilian subtypes. For all
effects related to race, a kobold is considered a dragon."

Kobolds can be affected by Dragon Psychosis (Dragon #313)

Ravening:

+4 Str (!) -4 Wis

The special powers are related to the breath weapon. Unless you invest into Dragonspawn or Dragonfire Adept, they won't work for you. But the ability score changes are still worth it imho.

Further you get the "Eat or Die (Ex)"-Ability =)
You need to consume an amount of creatures equal to your size (small if you take the base Kobold, tiny if you take the web-enhancement Kobold). A nice role play hook to feed from your dead enemies^^ Imho it sounds hilarious to have Kobold with an unexpected high appetite.

[LordOfCain]

"Humanoid (dragonblood, reptilian): Kobolds are human-
oids with the dragonblood and reptilian subtypes. For all
effects related to race, a kobold is considered a dragon."

Kobolds can be affected by Dragon Psychosis (Dragon #313)

Ravening:

+4 Str (!) -4 Wis

The special powers are related to the breath weapon. Unless you invest into Dragonspawn or Dragonfire Adept, they won't work for you. But the ability score changes are still worth it imho.

Further you get the "Eat or Die (Ex)"-Ability =)
You need to consume an amount of creatures equal to your size (small if you take the base Kobold, tiny if you take the web-enhancement Kobold). A nice role play hook to feed from your dead enemies^^ Imho it sounds hilarious to have Kobold with an unexpected high appetite.
Huh... looks like someone didn't see the Pathfinder tag..

[Gruftzwerg]

Huh... looks like someone didn't see the Pathfinder tag..

I saw it, so what? It isn't further mentioned if it's a Pathfinder only table or one of the Pathfinder games who include 3.5 material to some point. There are many wrong taged PF/3.x threads here. And since I called it out to be Dragon matirial, it should be obvious for the one who asked the question if the info is of use for him or not.

The question that remains is, why are u pointing out something which is so obvious ? Do you think the one asking would be miss leaded?

[LordOfCain]

I saw it, so what? It isn't further mentioned if it's a Pathfinder only table or one of the Pathfinder games who include 3.5 material to some point. There are many wrong taged PF/3.x threads here. And since I called it out to be Dragon matirial, it should be obvious for the one who asked the question if the info is of use for him or not.

The question that remains is, why are u pointing out something which is so obvious ? Do you think the one asking would be miss leaded?

Sorry, I just tend to see people get annoyed when someone suggests 3.5e stuff for their Pathfinder thread or PF stuff for their 3.5e thread...

[grarrrg]

Unchained Rogue class to start with, and one of the talents will be the one that makes sneak attacks cause bleed damage.

Just making sure you are aware that Bleed damage doesn't stack*.
"Bleeding damage from this ability does not stack with itself."
If you have 3 Sneak Dice, then each target can only Bleed for 3.
Overall not the best ability (could do worse though).

*the one exception to this I've found does so little Bleed per hit that they'll be dead LONG before you get the Bleed amount to a decent level.

[Particle_Man]

Flensing strike's removal of natural AC seems to stack, though.

And while 3.5 ideas might work for those that are reading this thread and playing in 3.5 games, I am currently playing in a pathfinder game that doesn't allow 3.5 stuff (or for that matter, 3rd party stuff) so I personally will be watching this thread for pathfinder ideas.

[khaldorgas]

Kobold? Google "pun pun build" and have fun :smallcool: :smallcool:

[Psyren]

Kobold? Google "pun pun build" and have fun :smallcool: :smallcool:

Doesn't work in Pathfinder and isn't actually meant to be played in a real game even if it did.



Anyhow, what are your thoughts?

What's the White Haired Witch dip for?

[Particle_Man]

What's the White Haired Witch dip for?

Natural attack: Hair (it is even a primary natural attack!). So that I can do primary bite/claw/claw/hair and secondary tail, all with some sneak attack.

I know that tail is a bludgeoning attack and I assume that Hair would be.

[Gruftzwerg]

Natural attack: Hair (it is even a primary natural attack!). So that I can do primary bite/claw/claw/hair and secondary tail, all with some sneak attack.

I know that tail is a bludgeoning attack and I assume that Hair would be.

not sure about PF, but in 3.5 imho you get to choose only 1 primary attack (claw/claw is an exception that counts as one primary) and everything else becomes secondary.

Since claws give you 2 attacks at primary BaB, it's the recommend choice as primary. Using either bite or hair as primary would be suboptimal.

as said, not sure how it really works in PF, but I guess like in 3.5

[grarrrg]

not sure about PF, but in 3.5...

Pathfinder most definitely did change things (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/universal-monster-rules#TOC-Natural-Attacks).
If it's a Primary it is ALWAYS a Primary, unless you are also using a Manufactured weapon.

[Gruftzwerg]

Pathfinder most definitely did change things (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/universal-monster-rules#TOC-Natural-Attacks).
If it's a Primary it is ALWAYS a Primary, unless you are also using a Manufactured weapon.

ah ty for the info =) learned something about PF^^

[Particle_Man]

Just found out about a "powerful wings" feat (has a prereq. of skill focus (fly) and str. 13 (hard to do for a kobold!)). That would give me two more secondary attacks if I get the draconic paragon feat to get wings. Then multiattack would be worth a feat.

This would leave me, at level 19, with bite/hair/claw/claw as primary and wing/wing/tail as secondary, all with sneak attack. Not too shabby!

The vivisectionist alchemist might give a tentacle attack, except that it specifically says that it does not add to the number of attacks per round. Ah well.

So a ranger 2/rogue5/witch1/rogue 12 build could work, I think.

[Molosse]

Just found out about a "powerful wings" feat (has a prereq. of skill focus (fly) and str. 13 (hard to do for a kobold!)). That would give me two more secondary attacks if I get the draconic paragon feat to get wings. Then multiattack would be worth a feat.

This would leave me, at level 19, with bite/hair/claw/claw as primary and wing/wing/tail as secondary, all with sneak attack. Not too shabby!

The vivisectionist alchemist might give a tentacle attack, except that it specifically says that it does not add to the number of attacks per round. Ah well.

So a ranger 2/rogue5/witch1/rogue 12 build could work, I think.

For something a bit simpler why not go full Natural Attack Ranger for access to Aspect of the Beast, Eldritch Claws and Multiattack (To go with the three secondary attacks you'll be rocking). Sure you lose access to the hair attack but with the higher BaB and Favored Enemy from going full martial you'll be doing consistent damage better than the Rogue/Witch/Ranger malarky and you'll end up with a (Noxious) Bite/Claw/Claw at full BaB and Wing/Wing at BaB-2 all by level 13.

The amount of feats somewhat makes it difficult to grab Tail Terror on top of everything else, however if you wanted to throw yourself into Slayer you could do the above (Noxious) Bite/Claw/Claw at full BaB and Wing/Wing at BaB-2 all by level 10 and grab Draconic Paragon/Tail Terror at levels 11/13 while keeping Sneak Attack progression and a good set of bonus' with Studied Target. Though that route costs you useful spells like Strong Wings (+10 Fly Speed and moves your Manoeuvrability from average to good).

[Particle_Man]

I guess I just like the 63d6 (or 70d6) sneak attack damage I could be getting. :smallsmile: And while sneak attack doesn't always work, neither does favoured enemy.

[Molosse]

I guess I just like the 63d6 (or 70d6) sneak attack damage I could be getting. :smallsmile: And while sneak attack doesn't always work, neither does favoured enemy.

Studied Target, however, always does. But whatever rocks your boat mate, I feel like you'd need to start pretty late in the game to really make the builds work however in any case. :).