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NRSASD
2017-01-29, 11:46 PM
So, we're playing a 5E D&D game with a DM who has a very tenuous grasp on CR levels. We're second level, and have already been thrown at rather sizeable orc patrols that nearly slaughtered us. We don't think he's trying to deliberately TPK us, but is just bad at gauging difficulty. Anyways, we've resorted to rather serious levels of shenanigans to not die at this point, so I'm looking for tips on how to better fortify our camp. Here's what we have so far:

We set up camp, make a campfire, lay out our bedrolls, and build scarecrows of our PCs (one on watch, the rest asleep). We tie our mules to a tree in our "camp", and deploy caltrops and hunting traps around them and throughout the camp. We then make our actual camp 60 ft away in the brush, no fire, two people on watch at all times, and we sleep in salt circles (just in case).

Any other tactics we can adopt to try to survive the night? We've got a monk, a rogue, a knowledge cleric, a barbarian, and a sorceror, all 2nd level, with about 50 gp each. No other real magic support. As always, any and all input is appreciated!

Chijinda
2017-01-30, 12:14 AM
What kind of gear do you have? Seems like the Sorcerer might (depending on his build) be able to put up a few alarms, and the Rogue could probably work out a trap or two (whether a concealed pitfall, or the Hollywood classic net-and-tree branch trap, just off the top of my head).

daniel_ream
2017-01-30, 01:33 AM
[...]I'm looking for tips on how to better fortify our camp.

Best go to the source (http://www.thelatinlibrary.com/hyginus/hyginus6.shtml).

I'm only being a little bit facetious. Six people, with a full day to prepare (I'm assuming the orcs only come out at night) can easily dig a ditch large enough to encompass the camp, raise a palisade, and spike it with stakes hewn from the surrounding forest. The Romans could erect a full marching camp in about four hours.

raspberrybadger
2017-01-30, 04:44 PM
Sounds ok against orcs, but it looks a little weak against large opponents like giants or something. Against nonflying opponents, even rocks or fallen logs or something, properly placed, can give them a serious disadvantage when the fight breaks out, especially if they are big. I agree with your idea of having defences that aren't obvious as such, which is why rocks, trees, and brush are your friends.

Lastly, lamp oil is cheap and other things which can be set on fire from there are free. As long as you've got a bait camp... under some circumstances, it's worth the risk of a fire that can be seen from some distance.

Stealth Marmot
2017-02-01, 09:50 AM
We set up camp, make a campfire, lay out our bedrolls, and build scarecrows of our PCs (one on watch, the rest asleep). We tie our mules to a tree in our "camp", and deploy caltrops and hunting traps around them and throughout the camp. We then make our actual camp 60 ft away in the brush, no fire, two people on watch at all times, and we sleep in salt circles (just in case).


Even Gygax would wonder what the HELL this DM is doing to make you like this!

Anyway, alarm spells should help. Also, just make sure you have people on watch at all times, and getting trained warhorses will actually help. Horses have their own spot and listen checks and they will wake up and cause alarms if they hear something.

Trained dogs are another possibility. Animals make some of the best sentries due to their awareness and training. There is a reason that a dog is considered one of the best home security systems you can get. Have the Barbarian take ranks in Handle Animal and train a few dogs to be sentries.

I realize you don't have much cash, but as adventurers you should be getting some cash soon. I mean, orc patrols have, if nothing else, a bunch of swords or bows to sell. Unless the DM is being particularly stingy.

Tanarii
2017-02-01, 01:36 PM
So, we're playing a 5E D&D game with a DM who has a very tenuous grasp on CR levels. We're second level, and have already been thrown at rather sizeable orc patrols that nearly slaughtered us. We don't think he's trying to deliberately TPK us, but is just bad at gauging difficulty. Anyways, we've resorted to rather serious levels of shenanigans to not die at this point, so I'm looking for tips on how to better fortify our camp. Here's what we have so far:

We set up camp, make a campfire, lay out our bedrolls, and build scarecrows of our PCs (one on watch, the rest asleep). We tie our mules to a tree in our "camp", and deploy caltrops and hunting traps around them and throughout the camp. We then make our actual camp 60 ft away in the brush, no fire, two people on watch at all times, and we sleep in salt circles (just in case).Can I hire you to come train new players at my table, on how to survive in a properly run Combat as War game? :smallbiggrin:

VoxRationis
2017-02-01, 03:41 PM
I thought the Romans carried the stakes, rather than spend time cutting them from local foliage.

MarkVIIIMarc
2017-02-01, 04:44 PM
+1 to dogs. A highly trained pooch will cost a few bucks. Next time I DM I'll sell the party a partially defective one at a discount and have fun with it.

Really dogs are good at that type of thing.

Slayn82
2017-02-01, 05:06 PM
Funny, your ideas are about the same things i did a few months ago in the current D&D 5 campaign I'm playing. Here's my take:

The burlap scarecrows, made of horse feed, empty bags and cheap gear from defeated enemies, are a great idea, can be put as fake sentinels around the camp, and can be burned to provide ilumination around them. Put then in semi - hidden spots, so the enemy can't get a good look at them, and use minor illusion to create voices from their direction. It's a bluff, but can help you to intimidate the enemy, and soak a few arrows.

A single Mule is very cheap - 8 gp, and can carry a decent amount of gear. With passive perception 10, they can serve both as extra sentries and sacrifices to satisfy hunting predators. Trouble is, they make you easy to follow, but can also help you misdirect enemies by sending then on a direction and spliting off slowly. Plus all the stuff they can carry for you, like food, gear and treasure.

You can buy ropes and large stakes, and make a series of rope fences around your camp to slow enemy charges. A couple rounds enemies spend cutting the ropes is a couple rounds you can shoot at them. The mules can carry these ropes and stakes without trouble. When you have more money, chains are even better, because they make sound when someone mess with them, and are harder to break.

It's possible to sleep up in a tree, make sure to tie yourself firmly if you are doing it. Pass the rope under one leg and your waist, leave your hands free, keep a knife ready to cut the ropes.

When a hostile attacks your camp, it wants something: it may be motivated by easy food, it may be because of greed of treasures, or it may be intending to kill a intruder in their territory.

If your mules are in a darker side of the camp and the horses are in a place closer, the mules can be considered acceptable losses. This doesn't mean they should be left unprotected, just that they are bait, and in case something attacks them, you should have enough distance between the target and yourself to buy a round or two. Remember to not put all eggs on a single basket.

During march, each mule should carry some spare rations and water, and those, along with any cheap, disposable gear, should be left in a semi-visible, but reasonably guarded place. This place should have a clear line of sight and range for your Spellcasters to go wild with their strongest offensive spells.

Cover the direct aproach from the mules and the fake pile of loot with calltrops or hunting traps, so once you hit the enemy and he comes charging at you, he has to deal with them.

If you have a Wagon, having some large barrels and a large, heavy chest, isn't a bad idea.

Barrels can store supplies, can serve as cover, a place to hide, can be rolled for simplified transport or along the corridor of a dungeon to activate traps, can be used to reinforce a closed door, you can put a tied enemy inside, you can put a fake botton on it to hide things, can be used as firewood, can be used as a bad boat, as a place to sit or a step to reach a higher place. Barrels are good. Having one per party member isn't bad, and makes a cheap and reliable source of cover or terrain obstruction.

The large chest is a place for larger valuables. You want it hard to break, heavy to carry, difficult to open. Lock it, then chain it to something, or bury it and make your camp fire over it. You may have another chest, visible, acessible, (not very) well guarded, and trapped.

You may also be patient, you can hunt for Poisonous snakes, and collect a swarm of them inside a barrel, catching them one by one. They don't eat much, and sleep spell works wonders. It makes for a fun surprise for your enemies. Do you know the spell Shatter? It doesn't need to fully break the barrel, but 3d8 should break it enough for the unharmed (total cover) but annoyed swarm to escape. Or pull the barrel with a rope, so it falls and open.

EDIT: at night, fighting enemies that want to beat a intruder,like the orc groups you mentioned, visibility is very important. Most enemies that will attack you have night vision, and if they are attacking at range, they will try to use your lights to see you, and impose disadvantage to your attacks due to darkness. Cover and places to hide are necessary to force the enemy to bring the fight to you. Fire spells or arrows may burn prepared burlap sacks with wood spread near your camps to help expand your vision.

You may also prepare a few javelins with a flammable torch at the other end, so you can throw them around. Javelins are reutilizable, almost every class can use them, and can serve as ranged weapons in the opening phase of the conflict for your melee focused characters.

daniel_ream
2017-02-01, 05:34 PM
I thought the Romans carried the stakes, rather than spend time cutting them from local foliage.

Yes, but that's because there was no guarantee there'd be a handy forest where they were going. The OP specified they were already in a forest. And it doesn't take long to turn a decent young tree into a stake.

raspberrybadger
2017-02-01, 08:05 PM
Plus, the wagon can be used to haul away the weapons and armour of a whole swarm of foes, letting you make a profit on the investments made to take them out. A mule is a good start on that though if you're just starting out.

WbtE
2017-02-01, 11:53 PM
The advice on how to survive this treatment is fairly good so far, but maybe you're being prompted to seek shelter at pre-existing fortifications?

raspberrybadger
2017-02-02, 11:52 AM
Just remember to check if a cave is occupied (or connected to something that is) before you use it. That goes double for more serious fortifications.

NRSASD
2017-02-02, 11:53 AM
Barrels, alarms, rope barricades, and dogs all sound like great investments. I can't believe I forgot about lamp oil though, we use it all the time as an offensive weapon.

I should mention that our very first adventure was to escort a merchant on a three day trip (a 3 hour tour) to the neighboring city through the domesticated woodland. We got attacked by lizardfolk heavy cavalry and their swarm of carnivorous flying geckos, demon rats and their mutant, toxic, exploding rat servants, and a straight up military patrol of Orc veterans. That last fight got us to second level. We've had 10 knockouts so far, and earned 18 gp for our troubles.

@Tanarii
This experience can't be bought, only EARNED. please send help :smallbiggrin:

@StealthMarmot
Our DM seems to be combining with a love of XCOM with a staggering lack of comprehension about the importance of CR and stats. Our PCs have rapidly developed the same level of PTSD and fatalistic resignation one normally finds in Forlorn Hope regiments.

Thanks for all the ideas so far and keep them coming! We might just survive our next two day trip into the forest to find out what killed one of the King's knights. Help : (

Hawkstar
2017-02-02, 12:28 PM
How many characters have died?

And it's obvious that the king"s knight was killed by that bloody wilderness.

Telok
2017-02-02, 05:04 PM
Man, if that's what a short bit of domesticated woodland is like then I'd hate to see what a full on wilderness like a jungle has in store for you.

I'd start considering how to build some sort of armored wagon covered in traps to sleep in. Perhaps see about replacing the horses with giant wolves or bears.

It also occurs to me that large, reinforced, treasure chests might make good "sleeping bags".

Quertus
2017-02-02, 07:54 PM
Barrels, alarms, rope barricades, and dogs all sound like great investments. I can't believe I forgot about lamp oil though, we use it all the time as an offensive weapon.

I should mention that our very first adventure was to escort a merchant on a three day trip (a 3 hour tour) to the neighboring city through the domesticated woodland. We got attacked by lizardfolk heavy cavalry and their swarm of carnivorous flying geckos, demon rats and their mutant, toxic, exploding rat servants, and a straight up military patrol of Orc veterans. That last fight got us to second level. We've had 10 knockouts so far, and earned 18 gp for our troubles.

@Tanarii
This experience can't be bought, only EARNED. please send help :smallbiggrin:

@StealthMarmot
Our DM seems to be combining with a love of XCOM with a staggering lack of comprehension about the importance of CR and stats. Our PCs have rapidly developed the same level of PTSD and fatalistic resignation one normally finds in Forlorn Hope regiments.

Thanks for all the ideas so far and keep them coming! We might just survive our next two day trip into the forest to find out what killed one of the King's knights. Help : (

It sounds like you've got good ideas on how to survive; what you really need is help with making $$$$$.

Did the lizardfolk use saddles? Saddle bags? Weapons?

Surely the patrol of orc veterans had weapons, if not armor, or even cash.

Even If you can't sell the orcs & lizard folk into slavery, the heavy cavalry trained mounts should be worth a pretty penny. And, even if you kill them, your foes so far sound like they're made of meat. And you're only a few days from town. Triple that money with craft: food. Fresh(ish) meat pies, anyone?


How many characters have died?

And it's obvious that the king"s knight was killed by that bloody wilderness.

That one got me. Thanks for the laugh!

daniel_ream
2017-02-02, 08:12 PM
I can't believe I forgot about lamp oil though, we use it all the time as an offensive weapon.

"Lamp oil" has verisimilitude problems. If it's treated like gasoline or highly refined kerosene, as it so often is, then you have to explain why it hasn't revolutionized warfare by now, especially siege warfare. Never mind that the energy density is so high that you jump right over coal-fired steam engines and go straight to fuel oil powered burners.

Historically, pre-industrial lamp oil (variously whale oil, olive oil, or other vegetable oils or animal fats) isn't very flammable, burns slowly and smokes and stinks a lot. You're not going to make effective molotov cocktails out of it.

Slayn82
2017-02-02, 09:20 PM
@StealthMarmot
Our DM seems to be combining with a love of XCOM with a staggering lack of comprehension about the importance of CR and stats. Our PCs have rapidly developed the same level of PTSD and fatalistic resignation one normally finds in Forlorn Hope regiments.

Thanks for all the ideas so far and keep them coming! We might just survive our next two day trip into the forest to find out what killed one of the King's knights. Help : (

As long as you guys are having fun, there's nothing wrong with playing a good Iron man campaign.

The classic solution for preventing ambushes is having a few scouts ahead or around the group. Sending two between the Monk, the Rogue and the barbarian ahead, so in case they notice something one sneaks back while the other Overwatches, or if they are attacked can raise alarm and use their speed to retreat, luring the enemy to the rest of the team, who has time to find cover, hide or prepare actions. A 50 to 90 feet ahead of others should be enough - a message cantrip has 120 meter reach, a light crossbow has 80/320. Let the enemy come to you, then retreat while allies shoot at them.

raspberrybadger
2017-02-03, 12:34 AM
I think a campaign like this is awesome. I imagine it isn't the sort of thing every player would enjoy, but it seems to be working out all right. And hey - if you go down fighting duergar cavalry mounted on dire bats or something, at least it will be epic.

As for lamp oil not being greek fire, yeah, IRL you'd need gasoline or napalm or something. But, regular vegetable oil will totally start other stuff on fire, though not necessarily immediately. Also, don't forget that it can be used to make existing smooth surfaces slippery, forcing balance checks, charges straight into a pit or off a cliff, that kind of thing.

daniel_ream
2017-02-03, 01:07 AM
As for lamp oil not being greek fire, yeah, IRL you'd need gasoline or napalm or something. But, regular vegetable oil will totally start other stuff on fire, though not necessarily immediately.

I don't want to get into a lot of fire chemistry here, but it's actually quite hard to set things on fire with most vegetable oils. Olive oil and sesame oil actually have the lowest smoke points of the various vegetable oils, and are the easiest to get out of the vegetable - and we still don't have much in the way of historical records of either being used reliably for arson.


Also, don't forget that it can be used to make existing smooth surfaces slippery, forcing balance checks, charges straight into a pit or off a cliff, that kind of thing.

Now we're getting into issues of cost and practicability. Olive oil is heavy, and you need a lot of it to cover a surface, and on anything short of bare, finely chased marble it's not going to do anything.