Would it ruin the game if spontaneous casting was only for those with known spells

[djreynolds]

I know that we have a limit on spells per day and our ability score modifier gives us none extra.

But sorcerer has 15 spells known at 17th level
A ranger has 11
and a bard has 22

And these three classes get nothing from an ability modifier in terms of extra spells, at least prepared caster can add more.

I'm sure it probably would make a difference, and in the end wouldn't strengthen these class but really just weaken others and that is obviously no fix

[Millstone85]

What is spontaneous casting, again?

[Gawayne]

Back in 3.5, Wizards and other Prepared Casters had to prepare every single spell slot they had, as in if I believe I'll need two casts of Fireball in a day, I had to prepare two Fireball Spell, thus consuming two 3rd level Spell Slots. If you needed another cast of Fireball that day, too bad, you prepared only 2 and used your other 3rd Level Spell Slots for other spells. It's kind of an annoying system when you think about it, but you also had more slots to play with back then and your main Attribute even gave you some extra spell slots.

Anyway, Spontaneous Spellcasting refered to exactly how prepared classes work today. You choose the spells you have prepared for the day and casting one of them consume the Spell Slot of the proper level, but not the spell itself. So you don't need to prepare Fireball twice, you prepare it once and every time you cast it you consume a 3rd Level Spell Slot, you may cast it once, twice, or consume every single Spell Slot you have with Fireballs.

Now what I think OP means by Spontaneous Casting in 5E would be to consider that Sorcerers and the like simply have all their spell list as Known Spells, no limits. And that would make then pretty unbalanced, the Ranger not so much because his spell list is quite limited, but the Sorcerer and Bard would be OP. Not only compared to other spellcasters but to every other class, you're understimating how much power that kind of versatility would give to Sorcerers and Bards. They pretty much would always have the answer to everything you throw at them.

Having to choose wich spells they know, and the lack of versatility that comes with it, is exactly the weakness of the class, it's what makes it balanced compared to others. The same way the weakeness of a Wizard is having to find the spells he wants, relying on the most useless Attribute in the game, trying to predict ahead of time what they'll need that day and not having all the Sorcery Points fun to play with.

With that said, if you're the DM, it's your call, just be aware of the consequences. If there are no Wizard player characters in your table, I don't think it would hurt that much. I just wouldn't see any reason to play a Wizard aside from fluff. A Bard could also replace a Cleric, spellwise. So yeah, that would pretty much make two classes rather pointless.

One way to mitigate that would be turn Bards and Sorcerers into Prepared Casters akin to Divine Casters. They have access to all spells from his list from the get go, but gotta prepare them ahead of time. That would be a way to give them a bit more versatility without taking too much out of Wizards and Clerics. And keep the Sorcerer Known/Prepared spell limit to 15.

[Millstone85]

Anyway, Spontaneous Spellcasting refered to exactly how prepared classes work today. You choose the spells you have prepared for the day and casting one of them consume the Spell Slot of the proper level, but not the spell itself.Ah okay, thanks.


Now what I think OP means by Spontaneous Casting in 5E would be to consider that Sorcerers and the like simply have all their spell list as Known Spells, no limits.Or maybe OP means only sorcerers and the like should use the spell-slots-as-mana mechanic, while wizards should have to prepare three fireballs, one tiny hut and so on.

[Gawayne]

Ah okay, thanks.

Or maybe OP means only sorcerers and the like should use the spell-slots-as-mana mechanic, while wizards should have to prepare three fireballs, one tiny hut and so on.

Maybe. But considering he's complaining about the limited number of known spells Sorcerers get, I believe my take on it is what he meant.

And making Wizards and other Prepared Casters go back to 3.5 Era would be a huge debuff to them. A better change would be to allow Spontaneous Casters to use the Spell Point optional rule while Prepared Casters keep the Spell Slot mechanic. This way, instead of limiting some classes more, you allow others to be a bit more versatile.

[Parra]

My reading of the OP was that he was lamenting the fact that Sorc (and the like) get less spells than the Wiz (and the like). And that to 'fix' this aparent disparity that the spontaneous be removed from some classes, presumably to return them to a 3.x vancian style.

Which to me sounds terrible. Removing that aspect was one of the best improvements to 5E imo.

[Arkhios]

My reading of the OP was that he was lamenting the fact that Sorc (and the like) get less spells than the Wiz (and the like). And that to 'fix' this aparent disparity that the spontaneous be removed from some classes, presumably to return them to a 3.x vancian style.

Which to me sounds terrible. Removing that aspect was one of the best improvements to 5E imo.

Agreed. Instead, if you really, honestly, want something extra in terms of spellcasting for the "known spells instead of prepared spells" classes, maybe give them additional spell slots, depending on their casting ability score. (like this: 12-13 = +1 first level slot, 14-15 = +1 second level slot, 16-17 = +1 third level slot, 18-19 = +1 fourth level slot, 20-21 = +1 fifth level slot, etc. if it ever goes higher than 20, that is)

[Grod_The_Giant]

Anyway, Spontaneous Spellcasting refered to exactly how prepared classes work today. You choose the spells you have prepared for the day and casting one of them consume the Spell Slot of the proper level, but not the spell itself. So you don't need to prepare Fireball twice, you prepare it once and every time you cast it you consume a 3rd Level Spell Slot, you may cast it once, twice, or consume every single Spell Slot you have with Fireballs.
Er, only one class in 3.5 worked like that (Spirit Shaman). Spontaneous casters in 3.x worked like the Bard or Sorcerer in 5e: you had a list of spells known and casting them consumed a spell slot, but you could mix-and-match any combination of 3rd level spells known in 3rd level slots. The biggest difference is that 3.x casters had specific numbers of spells known/spell level; if you wanted another 3rd level spell known instead of a 4th your were out of luck.

[Joe the Rat]

To the title point - no. I'm quite happy moving past Vancian casting. Even if I have to explain it to my players once a month.
(my preferred term for the open cast-by-slot-level is Valence casting)

Adding slots gets weird with multiclassing. Since you no longer have separate spell slots per class, the bonus slots apply to your pool. Do you add once per class? Once per applicable attribute? Pick your best? Does it apply equally to half casters (rangers) and 1/3 casters (EK & AT)? Is a two level investment in ranger worth the extra Wisdom-based slots for a cleric or druid? Based on other spell slot features, any bonuses should cap at 5th level slots.

Rangers, as half casters, having half the known spells of the bard? I'd be okay with that, if Paladins weren't sitting at 20+ spells prepped, thanks to oath spells. Personally I'd have made them both prepared, or both known. The only other explanation is that Paladins have the opposite situation - they know more spells, but practically will have half the spell slots to cast with, on the assumption that half of them are spent smiting.

Sorcerers are the ones who are comparatively really getting the shaft on known spells (and Warlocks to an extent, but let's focus on spell slot classes). I think WotC was reacting to this response from players based on the origin spells they were adding on the early sorcerer UAs. But in order for that to work, they would have either had to seriously downgrade the origin features, or errata in some additional spells for the PHB origins.

But... let's look at this another way. Bards get 22 (or 24) known spells - which is way more than the dedicated known spells classes (including Warlock). But their entire shtick is knowing stuff. If there is a class that really needs to have a bunch of weird utility spells on hand, it's going to be the bard. The extra known should encourage players to pick a few lesser-used spells for the odd chance they'd need it. The other class you expect this from? Wizard. But he can take his weird tools as rituals and leave them in the spell book.

[NNescio]

To the title point - no. I'm quite happy moving past Vancian casting. Even if I have to explain it to my players once a month.
(my preferred term for the open cast-by-slot-level is Valence casting)

Adding slots gets weird with multiclassing. Since you no longer have separate spell slots per class, the bonus slots apply to your pool. Do you add once per class? Once per applicable attribute? Pick your best? Does it apply equally to half casters (rangers) and 1/3 casters (EK & AT)? Is a two level investment in ranger worth the extra Wisdom-based slots for a cleric or druid? Based on other spell slot features, any bonuses should cap at 5th level slots.

Rangers, as half casters, having half the known spells of the bard? I'd be okay with that, if Paladins weren't sitting at 20+ spells prepped, thanks to oath spells. Personally I'd have made them both prepared, or both known. The only other explanation is that Paladins have the opposite situation - they know more spells, but practically will have half the spell slots to cast with, on the assumption that half of them are spent smiting.

Sorcerers are the ones who are comparatively really getting the shaft on known spells (and Warlocks to an extent, but let's focus on spell slot classes). I think WotC was reacting to this response from players based on the origin spells they were adding on the early sorcerer UAs. But in order for that to work, they would have either had to seriously downgrade the origin features, or errata in some additional spells for the PHB origins.

But... let's look at this another way. Bards get 22 (or 24) known spells - which is way more than the dedicated known spells classes (including Warlock). But their entire shtick is knowing stuff. If there is a class that really needs to have a bunch of weird utility spells on hand, it's going to be the bard. The extra known should encourage players to pick a few lesser-used spells for the odd chance they'd need it. The other class you expect this from? Wizard. But he can take his weird tools as rituals and leave them in the spell book.

Warlocks get 20 spells anyway (15 + 5 Mystic Arcana), and that's not counting taking Invocations that let you cast spells at-will or once-per-long-rest by using a normal slot. Tack on Book of Shadows rituals, and this becomes downright insulting for the Sorcerer, who's supposed to be the innate master of magic.

Yeah, Sorcs get the shaft completely. I would personally either houserule additional spells known (like those given by Sorcs' UA articles) or let them use the spell point mechanic. I won't allow the spell point mechanic for other 'spontaneous' casters though, as I personally think they (especially the Bard) are already good enough.

[Joe the Rat]

Warlocks get 20 spells anyway (15 + 5 Mystic Arcana), and that's not counting taking Invocations that let you cast spells at-will or once-per-long-rest by using a normal slot. Tack on Book of Shadows rituals, and this becomes downright insulting for the Sorcerer, who's supposed to be the innate master of magic.

Yeah, Sorcs get the shaft completely. I would personally either houserule additional spells known (like those given by Sorcs' UA articles) or let them use the spell point mechanic. I won't allow the spell point mechanic for other 'spontaneous' casters though, as I personally think they (especially the Bard) are already good enough.

Man did I brainfart on warlock spells, and that's supposed to be my thing! Thanks for the catch on that. So Sorcerers are seriously and solidly short-sheeted for spells.
What it comes down to is "Is metamagic enough of a game-changer to make up for the very limited bag of tricks?"
Yes? Ride on. No? Fix it.

Putting sorcerers only on the spell point variant would be a big uptick on flexibility. IIRC, the spell point cost per slot and sorcery point cost per slot are on the same pay scale. If that's correct, hang the conversion step and just make it all spell/sorcery points.

[Dalebert]

Can someone link me to a write-up of a spell point system they would prefer for sorcerers? My guess might be very inaccurate but I take that to mean they have a pool of points that they use to cast their spells from at a cost of 1 pt / lvl of the spell and that the point pool would not add up to the number of spells they can cast using the current slot system. If so, I would feel nerfed by such a system. I suspect most sorcerers burn some of their slots for more sorcery points and thus it's already fairly flexible via that class feature. Both of mine do that. Adding what seems like more flexibility at the cost of spells per day and overall sorcery points would feel like a big nerf to me. In a certain sense, that class feature already makes sorcerers a sort of spell point caster.

I love my sorcerers but I admit feeling a little shafted on spells known for a class that is more pure caster than a bard who has other features completely outside of casting spells or a warlock who has more spells known as well as invocations. My fix is adding 5 spells known via origins. This is the first I've heard of them being play-tested with origin spells. In homebrews, I've gone with there being 2 spells for each spell level one through five associated with a certain origin and letting the sorcerer pick one of each in addition to their spells known. These spells may or may not be on the sorcerer list already. For instance, Bane and Tasha's Hideous Laughter might be on the wild mage list for first level spells.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Can someone link me to a write-up of a spell point system they would prefer for sorcerers? My guess might be very inaccurate but I take that to mean they have a pool of points that they use to cast their spells from at a cost of 1 pt / lvl of the spell and that the point pool would not add up to the number of spells they can cast using the current slot system. If so, I would feel nerfed by such a system. I suspect most sorcerers burn some of their slots for more sorcery points and thus it's already fairly flexible via that class feature. Both of mine do that. Adding what seems like more flexibility at the cost of spells per day and overall sorcery points would feel like a big nerf to me. In a certain sense, that class feature already makes sorcerers a sort of spell point caster.

I love my sorcerers but I admit feeling a little shafted on spells known for a class that is more pure caster than a bard who has other features completely outside of casting spells or a warlock who has more spells known as well as invocations. My fix is adding 5 spells known via origins. This is the first I've heard of them being play-tested with origin spells. In homebrews, I've gone with there being 2 spells for each spell level one through five associated with a certain origin and letting the sorcerer pick one of each in addition to their spells known. These spells may or may not be on the sorcerer list already. For instance, Bane and Tasha's Hideous Laughter might be on the wild mage list for first level spells.
There's an official Spell Points Variant in the DMG.

The earlier UA Sorcerer archetypes have tended to have bonus spells known. Look at the Favored Soul (https://dnd.wizards.com/articles/unearthed-arcana/modifying-classes)(one cleric Domain) or the original Storm Sorcerer (https://media.wizards.com/2015/downloads/dnd/UA_Waterborne_v3.pdf)(nine spells from 1st to 5th level, such as Thunderwave and Call Lightning).

[metaridley18]

I like the idea of sorcs on spell point system to differentiate and vary them, but I haven't really played a sorc to know if it's a problem, per se. I'm rectifying that in my current campaign, and while choosing spells was incredibly painful, I ultimately don't feel like my spell choice has limited me too much in the one session we've played. I certainly don't feel less useful/powerful/flexible than the rest of my party, though admittedly we don't have another full caster, just a warlock.

However, I've played an enchanter and a diviner wizard in the past. I definitely felt more useful in more diverse situations as the wizard, but that's their schtick. Overall, I'm getting the feeling that the sorcerer is meant to be the sledgehammer to the wizard's toolkit. You have one tool and you apply it with great force, but it DOES get through. Metamagic is incredibly potent. Also having a billion cantrips is great fun. As an aside, wild magic is actually pretty awesome if you can work out the timing on surges with your DM to both your satisfaction. Advantage any time you NEED it is great (obviously), and surging to recover it is a fair balancing mechanic. Bend luck is obviously great.

Also, Int is so incredibly devalued in 5E that there is something to be said for having an 18-20 Cha as your spellcasting ability. It means I feel MUCH more useful in social situations than I ever did as a wizard, even the enchanter wizard. Obviously it's a bit different than being a bard, but the bard's spell list is not nearly as powerful as the sorc/wiz one, magical secrets notwithstanding (Magical Secrets is great, but you're ironically limited in your breadth of selection...you have to choose from every spell list, and it's a hard choice).

So in general I think the sorcerer is a little on the weak side compared to a wizard, but metamagic, cantrips, and Cha based casting makes up for it to bring them almost in line with the overall fun/usefulness/versatility of a wizard. Compared to a bard it looks like they get the shaft, but I tend to think white room theorycrafting overvalues magical secrets and spells known. Thus, while I'd be interested in using spell points to give sorcs a little bit of a boost, I don't think they really need it as they are.

[Dalebert]

Look at the Favored Soul (https://dnd.wizards.com/articles/unearthed-arcana/modifying-classes)(one cleric Domain) or the original Storm Sorcerer (https://media.wizards.com/2015/downloads/dnd/UA_Waterborne_v3.pdf)(nine spells from 1st to 5th level, such as Thunderwave and Call Lightning).

I'm familiar with Favored Soul but not the original Storm Sorcerer. The bonus spells for Favored Soul were too much and it seems very broken to me. Now if all sorcerers got 5 bonus spells, I think that would be just about right. I also think there are a few more spells on the wizard list but not the sorcerer list that should be added. They were overly restrictive in that respect. It's important to think about how any spells will interact with metamagic to create a possible brokenness but it seems like some spells they just said "no" for seemingly arbitrary reasons when sorcerers are already limited enough based on their limited spells known. Wizards should be more versatile but keeping basically harmless spells completely out of the reach of sorcerers just limits the variety of flavors available and I don't see how that affects balance.


As an aside, wild magic is actually pretty awesome if you can work out the timing on surges with your DM to both your satisfaction.

My preference is for surges to always be triggered by Tides of Chaos. So far, almost every DM I've played with has been completely on board. Of course they should have veto power if it's going to disrupt the game too much but that's pretty rare. I tend to check with DMs before the game and if they seem at all reticent about surges, I don't play my wild mage. They feel very subpar if the DM is stingy with surges.


Also, Int is so incredibly devalued in 5E that there is something to be said for having an 18-20 Cha as your spellcasting ability.

Mostly because they made it a dump stat for most classes. It's actually really useful. THe knowledge skills are very useful if you want to play your character smartly without meta-gaming. For instance, I, the player, know the weaknesses of a fiend, but I won't metagame and assume my character knows those things unless I can run a knowledge check past the DM and roll decently. "22. Does my character know they're resistant to fire, cold, and lightning?"

[RickAllison]

I'm familiar with Favored Soul but not the original Storm Sorcerer. The bonus spells for Favored Soul were too much and it seems very broken to me. Now if all sorcerers got 5 bonus spells, I think that would be just about right. I also think there are a few more spells on the wizard list but not the sorcerer list that should be added. They were overly restrictive in that respect. It's important to think about how any spells will interact with metamagic to create a possible brokenness but it seems like some spells they just said "no" for seemingly arbitrary reasons when sorcerers are already limited enough based on their limited spells known. Wizards should be more versatile but keeping basically harmless spells completely out of the reach of sorcerers just limits the variety of flavors available and I don't see how that affects balance.



My preference is for surges to always be triggered by Tides of Chaos. So far, almost every DM I've played with has been completely on board. Of course they should have veto power if it's going to disrupt the game too much but that's pretty rare. I tend to check with DMs before the game and if they seem at all reticent about surges, I don't play my wild mage. They feel very subpar if the DM is stingy with surges.



Mostly because they made it a dump stat for most classes. It's actually really useful. THe knowledge skills are very useful if you want to play your character smartly without meta-gaming. For instance, I, the player, know the weaknesses of a fiend, but I won't metagame and assume my character knows those things unless I can run a knowledge check past the DM and roll decently. "22. Does my character know they're resistant to fire, cold, and lightning?"

The Favored Soul was too much compared to other sorcerers because of its increased spell list combined with making the huge leap from being unarmored/Mage Armored (and thus being dependent on higher Dexterity to increase AC) to medium armor+shield with a variety of other useful abilities. The Storm Sorcerer also included essentially a domain spell-list, but with abilities much more in line with standard sorcerer power.

I think the original Storm Sorcerer had power balanced with the rest of the classes, gaining spells known comparable to the Warlock and Bard but with less versatility, but just seemed overpowered when compared to other sorcerers as they are below the norm. Not to say that the class isn't useful (I could talk for a long time about the uses of Subtle Metamagic), but that they are lagging compared to other full-casters. Favored Souls are rather OP by class comparisons because they give a huge boost in capabilities compared to other traditions, but without the comparatively weaker abilities as is normal for such archetypes.

[metaridley18]

My preference is for surges to always be triggered by Tides of Chaos. So far, almost every DM I've played with has been completely on board. Of course they should have veto power if it's going to disrupt the game too much but that's pretty rare. I tend to check with DMs before the game and if they seem at all reticent about surges, I don't play my wild mage. They feel very subpar if the DM is stingy with surges.

That's what we went with and it feels fine so far. You went with Wild Mage, you want to always surge. Having advantage 4-8 times a day when you really really need it is awesome, and the auto-surge makes you conserve it if you don't want to risk drawbacks or allows you to have a measure of control over chaos when you don't mind as much. Obviously if the DM isn't on board Wild Mage would be considerably weaker.




Mostly because they made it a dump stat for most classes. It's actually really useful. THe knowledge skills are very useful if you want to play your character smartly without meta-gaming. For instance, I, the player, know the weaknesses of a fiend, but I won't metagame and assume my character knows those things unless I can run a knowledge check past the DM and roll decently. "22. Does my character know they're resistant to fire, cold, and lightning?"

Eh, proficiency in some knowledges plus a >10 Int (which I take on casters most of the time for RP reasons) covers that pretty well. Failing that, a good DM should portray that the creature is resisting, so you'll try damage types. I actually know very little of the MM in 5E so I can avoid metagaming very easily!

[djreynolds]

I apologize for my confusing intro.

I understand that taking anything from other classes, like spontaneous casting... that's what I call it... detracts from all classes... bad idea.

And ritual stuff is there.

I feel bad for sorcerers, they even get less spells to choose from. It's not 15 known off the wizard list, the sorcerer's list is smaller. Granted they get con saves, but anyone can.

I like favored soul, but I don't want cleric stuff.

I almost feel the sorcerer should get wizard archetypes and the wizard get the sorcerers... silly.

Just some extra known spells... as it is I let my sorcerers use whatever metamagic they want. They can switch them on a short rest.

3.5 sorcerers seemed to have more freedom. 5e are very specific

[metaridley18]

I apologize for my confusing intro.
I feel bad for sorcerers, they even get less spells to choose from. It's not 15 known off the wizard list, the sorcerer's list is smaller. Granted they get con saves, but anyone can.
Like I said, spell points for sorcerers only is a neat idea, but I really don't think sorcs need a buff. If you feel they do, spell points is a nice variation that gives them uniqueness and flexibility without making them too strong.


Just some extra known spells... as it is I let my sorcerers use whatever metamagic they want. They can switch them on a short rest.
3.5 sorcerers seemed to have more freedom. 5e are very specific

That's a really nice feature. With that I definitely don't think they need too much more. You aren't gonna break it giving them a few more known spells, though.

[Typhon]

This may not sound popular, but you could always cut the Bard back on spell availability. Before this edition they never had spells above 6 or seventh.

This doesn't hamper the game much as they are still a crazy mage/cleric/rogue mash up.