"Mage Killer" build

[danielxcutter]

Anyone have ideas for a "mage killer" build that's good at shutting down casters or killing them? I think there were feats for that, and an Abjurant Champion gish build is surprisingly good at countering enemy casters as well... but I don't know much about the specifics or other ways to make such a build. Suggestions?

[Swaoeaeieu]

Anyone have ideas for a "mage killer" build that's good at shutting down casters or killing them? I think there were feats for that, and an Abjurant Champion gish build is surprisingly good at countering enemy casters as well... but I don't know much about the specifics or other ways to make such a build. Suggestions?

beside the obvious threads popping up all the time about sorcerers killing wizards? Sorry no clue :P

[ChaosStar]

Occult Slayer and the Mage Killer feats would be my suggestions. Just don't try to go full caster cause the feats retard your spellcasting abilities.

[Strigon]

beside the obvious threads popping up all the time about sorcerers killing wizards? Sorry no clue :P

I was going to say something about a sorcerer whose offence has no defense, but you ruined it :/

[A.A.King]

The feats you want on a dedicated Mage Killer are [Mage Slayer] which make it impossible for a spellcaster to cast defensively and it's two follow up feats: [Pierce Magical Concealment] which allows you to ignore miss chance granted by spells or spell-like abilities (including Mirror Image) and [Pierce Magical Protection] which allows you make a standard action attack that ignores Armor Class granted by spells and which, if it hits, dispels all spells granting such Armor Class.

The other thing you want is a Crusader dip or more to pick up the Thicket of Blades stance which means that even if your opponent makes a 5-ft step he still threatens an attack. As long as you threaten your opponent he can't cast a spell without provoking an Attack of Opportunity which will force him to make a concentration check but he also can't easily escape your threatend zone. Finally add either Evasive Reflexes or Stand Still to make sure that either you get to follow your opponent after he moved (to keep preventing him from making attacks of opportunity) or to prevent him from moving at all.

[ExLibrisMortis]

I would suggest a cleric with Divine Defiance and the Inquisition domain. After that, optimize as you would for any full caster.

[Swaoeaeieu]

I was going to say something about a sorcerer whose offence has no defense, but you ruined it :/

OP asked for a character specialized in killing spellcasters, not someone who steals magic. But thanks for going allong witht the joke :p

[Mr Adventurer]

I wonder if you could use Abjurant Champion etc caster level boosts to get away with Mage Slayer feats on a gish...

[Eldariel]

Honestly, the best way to kill a caster is to attack them without them knowing you're there, to plan around their contingencies and to kill them through it. Practically speaking, everything depends on the target at question. But the hardest part is to find them without them finding you. My first pick is a Dispel-focused Abjurer with various ways to counter and dispel as a free action and boost their dispel checks; Battlemagic Perception [Heroes of Battle], Duelward [Spell Compendium], Divine Defiance [Fiendish Codex II], etc. If you can qualify, Epic Counterspell [Player's Guide to Faerun] is awesome but obviously generally requires epic levels. Clerics, Archivists and Artificers are all reasonable options to this end. Please peruse the Dispelling & Counterspelling Compilation (http://web.archive.org/web/20130726022714/http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871214/Dispelling_38;_Counterspelling_Compilation) to this end and familiarize yourself with the various contingency-based shenanigans.

Far as strategic versatility goes, casting is next to none - Psionics are a good second choice. A Psionic Gish/Psion can be quite effective vs. spellcasters if not quite as strong. Synchronity, Linked Power, Anticipatory Strike, Temporal Acceleration, etc. allow them to play with casting a lot.


If you want a non-magical option, finding them is out of the question. You can at least plan around making it hard to find yourself though. I'll cover this in a bit more detail since it's a much more simple domain. These options can be used by casters too, but caster vs. caster combat is too complex to write a quick guide on.

Things that can help:

- Favoured Enemy: Arcanists [Complete Mage "Arcane Hunter"] + Nemesis [Book of Exalted Deeds]: 60' enemy radar for arcane magic users that essentially nothing blocks. Sadly no such thing exists for divine casters but many of the more advanced divine casters might also be able to cast arcane spells (through e.g. Anyspell) which might or might not count. Only works at short ranges, sadly. Still, one of the few ways to detect a target e.g. under Superior Invisibility incorporeally inside a solid object.

- Hide in Plain Sight (Reference this list (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1412.00)) + Darkstalker [Lords of Madness]: Makes you quite difficult to detect without making a Spot-check. Then it's just a matter of ramping your Hide skyhigh and making sure your form of HIPS applies in the terrain of choice (I recommend making sure it at least works in the sky). Note that Arcane Sight still detects your magic items and Mindsight still detects your mind (though it could reasonably be argued that Mind Blank protects against that).

- Mind Blank: You need some form of this to not fall prey to divination-based attacks such as standard Scry'n'Die. Occult Slayer [Complete Warrior], Legacy Weapon [Weapons of Legacy] or some of the hyperexpensive magic items (See here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?187851-3-5-Lists-of-Necessary-Magic-Items)). As a side-effect, also protects you against mind-affecting no-save lose effects like Irresistible Dance.

- Vecna-Blooded [MM4]: One of the few templates that are definitely worth it. You need to be evil and able to cast 2nd or higher level arcane spells, but you can fill that qualification with e.g. Dragonsblood Pool trick or some such. It makes you very difficult to divine. For optimal use, reapply it as often as possible to make all knowledge of you vanish.


Of course, magic items in general do a lot of work. It is, however, inconvenient that they do reveal you within 120' of the target. Notably this means that by the time you can Nemesis-detect the target, you'll be long detected. Magic Aura (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magicAura.htm) can mask your items but technically Magic Aura itself will probably be detected. You can discuss that little detail with your DM.

In general, most of the battle happens before the combat itself. While you can go through some measurements to improve your combat prowess, a spellcaster's available arsenal and angles of attack and defense positively dwarf those of a noncaster. Particularly the mobility difference between Teleport and anything but Teleport is ridiculous - and it's hard to match the amount of actions a caster is able to take.

Thus, the best tactic is to have as many angles of attack available to you as possible and hope you can use something the opponent is not prepared for. Also, as many generalist answers to hopefully make the opponent waste turns. Things of note:

- Iron Heart Surge: One of the few ways to end almost any spell effect in the game. Quite useful.

- Antimagic Field: Unless you can make your magic function inside it (the usual Selective Spell [Shining South], Initiate of Mystra [Player's Guide to Faerun], Shadow Weave Magic, etc.), don't make it constant. But having the option to activate it (e.g. Runescarred Berserker [Unapproachable East], Antimagic Torc [Underdark], Bulwark of Antimagic [Draconomicon]) can be convenient if you can get into a place where the target is unable to avoid you but need to cut past some defenses.

- Flight: This is obvious. You need flight, preferably nonmagical (convenient list (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?187851-3-5-Lists-of-Necessary-Magic-Items)). I prefer Feathered Wings Graft [Fiend Folio] plus Moment of Perfect Mind to enable me to pick my alignment. Solid flight for an affordable cost.

- Extra actions: Factotum [Dungeonscape], White Raven Tactics [Tome of Battle], Ruby Knight Vindicator [Tome of Battle], various Powers [Complete Psionics/Expanded Psionics Handbook] and spells that accomplish this. Being able to do stuff, see it fail and do more stuff before enemy gets to act is just awesome. Immediate Action acting in particular is supervaluable to be able to capitalize on momentary advantages on enemy's turn or to interrupt something dangerous (Eternal Blade [Tome of Battle], Celerity [Player's Handbook 2], Anticipatory Strike [Complete Psionics], Contingencies of any kind).

- Attack options. At the very least pack nonmetal weapons (Ironguard [Spell Compendium] makes iron weapons completely useless), ranged weapons (preferably something that ignores weather conditions; arguably Force [Magic Item Compendium] does this), reach melee weapons for threatening squares and some ways to bypass enemy defenses or reach high numbers, and move and do relevant melee attacks (Charge is okay but if you can ignore the movement limitations, all the better). And of course, ensure you do enough damage to actually kill the target if you get a shot edgewise. You can't afford to fail here.

One particularly valuable option is ranged attacks that penetrate terrain. These include Brilliant Energy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#brilliantEnergy) projectiles [DMG] (but mind that if the target is currently inhabiting a technically non-living body such as that of a Lich or a Construct, these are useless), Phasing Arrows [DR330] (only up to 5' barriers though), Blood Seeking [Complete Warrior] (but similar issues as with Brilliant Energy, and it can't even hit targets inside objects), etc. However, you need something like Nemesis, Mindsight or Arcane Sight to locate the target, or you can fire blindly (if you have a Seeking (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#seeking) weapon and guess the square right, you even avoid the miss chance).

Preferably defeat the target with a weapon that makes reviving difficult or impossible to deal with the various contingencies in place. Thinaun weapon [Complete Warrior] works but is limited to melee weapons and is metal so you have to work around Ironguard and ranged options if you use that. Other options tend to require spellcasting - and knocking the opponent out or binding them somehow can be made impossible with magic anyways.

[Flickerdart]

Anyone have ideas for a "mage killer" build that's good at shutting down casters or killing them? I think there were feats for that, and an Abjurant Champion gish build is surprisingly good at countering enemy casters as well... but I don't know much about the specifics or other ways to make such a build. Suggestions?

You'd be surprised how many characters don't take Silent Spell. A simple casting of silence can throw a wrench into the works of any low-op or even mid-op caster. Counterspelling using Divine Defiance or a similar route that doesn't use your own standard action is also effective. A psion using twinned/linked synchronicity can beat down a traditional spellcaster with readied actions to disrupt spellcasting.

At high-op, the best way to shut down a caster is to go first and do your 100% sure-kill trick before they do their 100% sure-kill trick.

[Gruftzwerg]

I would suggest to have a look on "Arcanopath Monk" (Dragon Compendium). Imho it's full of "Mage Killer" *fluff* & abilities.

- progresses monk abilities: AC, movement, unarmed dmg, Flurry of Blows (!)

- Clap of Deafness

- Chop of Silence

- Strike of Confusion

- Deflect Spell

- Slap of Forgetfulness : enemy loses some prepared spells / spell slots

- See Invisible permanent

- Ki Strike: cold iron and later can strike ethereal creatures

- Reflect Spell

- Sundering Strike of Oblivion : target loses knowledge of some spells permanent

As said, all abilities have "Mage Killer" written on it ;)

[LordOfCain]

I would suggest to have a look on "Arcanopath Monk" (Dragon Compendium). Imho it's full of "Mage Killer" *fluff* & abilities.

- progresses monk abilities: AC, movement, unarmed dmg, Flurry of Blows (!)

- Clap of Deafness

- Chop of Silence

- Strike of Confusion

- Deflect Spell

- Slap of Forgetfulness : enemy loses some prepared spells / spell slots

- See Invisible permanent

- Ki Strike: cold iron and later can strike ethereal creatures

- Reflect Spell

- Sundering Strike of Oblivion : target loses knowledge of some spells permanent

As said, all abilities have "Mage Killer" written on it ;)
It also is called arcanopath always horrid option monk....

[Doctor Despair]

At high OP, as Flickerdart said, the only way to kill a wizard is to be a wizard and to make sure the other wizard doesn't know you're coming via things like Xorvintaal dragons and God Blooded of Vecna template abuse.

At low OP (which I am using here to mean no Craft Contingent Spell or other TO options), there are some good suggestions here. I'd recommend the Witch Slayer class for a nice thematic foil to casters.

[gorfnab]

Here is a non-spellcaster based Mage Slayer build I came up with a while ago.

1. Ranger - B: Track, Weapon Focus: Guisarme, Arcane Hunter ACF (CM)
2. Barbarian - Spirit Totem: Lion ACF (CC), Whirling Frenzy ACF (UA), {Optional: City Brawler ACF (Drg#349)}
3. Barbarian - Nemisis: Arcanists, Wolf Totem ACF
4. Warblade
5. Warblade
6. Warblade - Mage Slayer
7. Warblade
8. Warblade - B: Improved Initiative
9. Crusader - Blindfight
10. Crusader
11. Occult Slayer
12. Occult Slayer - Combat Reflexes
13. Occult Slayer
14. Occult Slayer
15. Occult Slayer - Pierce Magical Concealment
16. Witch Slayer
17. Witch Slayer
18. Witch Slayer - Stand Still
19. Witch Slayer
20. Witch Slayer

Note: The levels of Occult Slayer and Witch Slayer can be switched around as needed.

Warblade nets you the maneuvers Iron Heart Surge, Moment of Perfect Mind, and Action Before Thought. You also get Uncanny Dodge

Crusader nets you the Thicket of Blade Stance (combos nicely with Stand Still, Combat Reflexes, and a reach weapon; wear spiked gauntlets or armor spikes to threaten nearby squares) and some healing maneuvers. it also nets you Indomitable Soul.

Witch Slayer nets you Mettle and Slippery Mind.

If playing human take EWP: Spiked Chain and WF: Spiked Chain instead of Guisarme.

Another option would be to look into importing the Witch Hunter (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/super-genius-games/witch-hunter) class from Pathfinder.

[Telonius]

It's really hard to figure out how to kill "a caster," since there are just so many ways for them to end you before you even think about threatening him. It's a lot easier to figure out how to kill "that caster," meaning the particular character that's being run by your player or DM.

[frost890]

I used a rogue/monk a while back that went after casters. He used thunder stones in his sling to deafen casters. Since most casters have crappy fort saves, stunning fist works well. He used stealth to sneak around behind them and hit them in the kidneys. With a few levels in rogue you get access to UMD and trap finding. UMD can be used for some defensive and offensive spells as well as some of the utility spells. Since a lot of the monk abilities are passive/defensive they make good assassins. Immune to poisons and they get abilities that protect them from most spells.

[LordOfCain]

I used a rogue/monk a while back that went after casters. He used thunder stones in his sling to deafen casters. Since most casters have crappy fort saves, stunning fist works well. He used stealth to sneak around behind them and hit them in the kidneys. With a few levels in rogue you get access to UMD and trap finding. UMD can be used for some defensive and offensive spells as well as some of the utility spells. Since a lot of the monk abilities are passive/defensive they make good assassins. Immune to poisons and they get abilities that protect them from most spells.

Ahhhhh!!! It's a monk supporter! To think I lived to see one... 😛 If properly optimized though, monks can be okay and can function against non optimized casters (due to high saves). But in general, MADness tends to stop them from being effective mage slayers. IMHO.

[Hurnn]

I hear monks with UMD and partially charged wands are good for this.

[Eldariel]

Ahhhhh!!! It's a monk supporter! To think I lived to see one... 😛 If properly optimized though, monks can be okay and can function against non optimized casters (due to high saves). But in general, MADness tends to stop them from being effective mage slayers. IMHO.

Well, Monks are so bad at fighting that even an average arcanist with all-day buffs and Polymorph (which can of course be shared with Familiar) stands a decent chance of beating a Monk in 1v1 melee, no spells (not to even talk about Clerics or Druids that actually do fighting for real). Not to even mention the caster's martial minions - Undead, Bound things, Constructs, what-have-you.

[Azoth]

Here is a low op "Mundane Mage Killer" build I did years ago.

https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=434572

Guy has evasion; mettle; mundane flight; doesn't give off magic/alignment Auras; is immune to Transmutation, Divination, most of Necromancy; can return 11 spells/day that don't hit him back to sender; can use spell turning 2/day; has a multitude of ways to get around common caster tricks; can deliver an Uber Charge Nova Strike that Dimension Anchors on contact...and I still don't favor him beating most casters.

*Just noticed that during auto-transfer Mythweavers screwed up his skill section.*

[Anthrowhale]

With respect to Eldariel's list

For your spells functioning in an AMF, Selective[you] AMF and Shadow Weave Magic don't work. Invoke Magic, Initiate of Mystra, and epic spells can all function inside an AMF.
For detection Mindsight has the nice advantage that range can be enormous if you can shift forms to a form with natural telepathy.
For avoiding detection, a high caster level + Insidious Magic can make your spells undetectable by Divinations.

Something like a Lawful Neutral Archivist 7/Hathran 5/Shadow Adept 1/?? 7 persistomancer with Initiate of Mystra, Mindsight, and Insidious Magic could cast a selective[you] AMF, then Shapechange[Formian Queen] then Draconic Poymorph[self], Cloak of Khyber, Ghostform, Friendly Fire, and Mystic Shield. They would look entirely normal, even to Truesight and divinations by anyone less than caster level 30 yet detect intelligence to a 50 mile range and be immune to most magical and mundane attacks.

[emeraldstreak]

For low levels, PvP arena champion builds are technically mage-killers (within each arena's rule limitations).

For high levels, what Flickerdart said.

[gorfnab]

You'd be surprised how many characters don't take Silent Spell. A simple casting of silence can throw a wrench into the works of any low-op or even mid-op caster.
Whisper Gnome Rogue with the feats Magic in the Blood and Silencing Strike

[Grod_The_Giant]

As you might have gathered, "how optimized is the mage?" is the important question. Are we talking "fireballs all day," "a few all-day buffs and good spell loadout," "some metamagic/persistent spell cheese," or "5-dimensional contingency chess?"

[danielxcutter]

As you might have gathered, "how optimized is the mage?" is the important question. Are we talking "fireballs all day," "a few all-day buffs and good spell loadout," "some metamagic/persistent spell cheese," or "5-dimensional contingency chess?"

Um... Second or third for the purposes of this thread, I guess?

[Grod_The_Giant]

Okay. Then we need someone with

The mobility to close with a flying/teleporting mage
The ability to dispel or otherwise bypass magical defenses that could otherwise render one invulnerable (Ironguard, Delay Death, etc)
Enough toughness to survive some nasty attack spells

[Eldariel]

For your spells functioning in an AMF, Selective[you] AMF and Shadow Weave Magic don't work. Invoke Magic, Initiate of Mystra, and epic spells can all function inside an AMF.

Fair enough about Selective Spell and Shadow Weave Magic. The former still allows you to cast though. The latter only works for Dead Magic Zones, something I'd forgotten.


Something like a Lawful Neutral Archivist 7/Hathran 5/Shadow Adept 1/?? 7 persistomancer with Initiate of Mystra, Mindsight, and Insidious Magic could cast a selective[you] AMF, then Shapechange[Formian Queen] then Draconic Poymorph[self], Cloak of Khyber, Ghostform, Friendly Fire, and Mystic Shield. They would look entirely normal, even to Truesight and divinations by anyone less than caster level 30 yet detect intelligence to a 50 mile range and be immune to most magical and mundane attacks.

Ultimately Elemental Weirds' infinite free action Divinations are the most powerful form of information gathering, but that's not terribly bad either. Spell Weaver has 1000 mile telepathy, though it whether it works for Mindsight is debatable. By RAW it works; the only prerequisite is having "Telepathy" and it only cares about the range of the Telepathy-ability, not any details. Much like Mindblank blocking Mindsight however, it seems reasonable to argue that by the logic of the ability it would only work on those it can perceive.

[Gruftzwerg]

Um... Second or third for the purposes of this thread, I guess?

Fighting "5-dimensional contingency chess" will be hard and is imho only possible with "6-dimensional contingency chess" ^^

So how would that look like?

I'll give it a try (! don't hurt me if it doesn't work^^) to start..

Warlock 12 / Blood Magus 4 / Effigy Master 1 / ??? 3

required/recommend feats: Obtain Familiar, Greater Fortitude, Toughness, Craft Wondrous Item, Craft Contingent Spell

Maybe add Chameleon 2 for the floating feat to have access to all craft feats.

-boost UMD

- cheat character wealth balance with Spells (inscribed in your skin) like a wizard

- craft your lil Effigy Army and equip em with crafted magical stuff

- Scribe 6 spell (of any lvl and class) on your Skin, that you might wanna use. This is more for the preparation part of the build, cause you could do the same stuff with craft contingent spell.

- Brew Potions and store up to (Blood Magus lvl + Con Score!) in your blood. You can share it with another creature if needed.

- craft Contingent Spells on everything (you, your familiar and effigies) for any Situation that might occur and back it up several times. Target even the enemy Contingent Spells and counter em & dispell em with several lavers. Counter the possible counters and so on.. And don't forget that you have access to "ALL SPELLS" (once UMD is high enough) while crafting, including (greater) Arcane Fusion for extra cheese.

-------------
another option could be an epic golem, since they have total "magic immunity" (even those that bypass Spell Resistance). But a clever Mage might even overcome the epic golem by just summoning other powerful stuff. The Epic Golem would need the surprise moment and a way to bypass the defenses of the mage.

-------------

a max bluff build could work to. You could try to convince the Mage, that the universe will collapse under "his" immense power if he doesn't immediately kills himself for the sake of the rest of the universe. good luck with the insane bluff DC that the DM will require for this.

-------------

End of story: If you wanna kill a Mage, be better prepared than him (if that if possible at all).

[Doctor Despair]

If you want to kill a mage... Be a mage. :/

This is the only way I've thought of without infinite loop abuse:

0. We assume this mage has not taken Vecna Blooded because otherwise we would not know about him to desire to kill him


1. Take God Blooded of Vecna and consort with Xorvintaal dragons to become completely unknown

2. Have a very high knowledge planes check to know where his private demiplane is that he astral projects from

3. Cast Legend Lore and then apply God Blooded of Vecna again; do this many times to learn about his defenses.

4. If we assume equal (arbitrarily high) resources, then we craft the same number or more contingent spells and make an equal or greater number of ice assassins of the mage; the ice assassins are needed to counteract the army of ice assassins the mage will inevitably surround himself with. The contingent spells go on a Simulacrum or other minion

5. We need the planar bubble and a demiplane that will permit us to ignore the negative traits of his plane

6. We use Wish to transport us all 45 feet away from the mage

7. Contingent magic fires off. The enemy mages triggers first, then ours, then his, then ours, etc. Because of how it layers, our last resolves first. Our last (or many) spells are/is a disjunction, which dispells all his other contingent magic. Then our other spells resolve -- this should be able to kill him since at least the first spell should be a response to someone teleporting in. If not, we know about it and can make a different plan. Let's assume we need another step though, to be conservative. The Simulacrum wearing the contingent spells is smites by a deity for destroying artifacts the wizard is wearing.

8. The ice assassins cancel each other out with spells and counterspells

9. The disjunction dispelled the mages foresight, leaving him flat-footed. It also dispelled his hide life, astral projection, etc. We take a surprise round and kill him.

10. In the time he is dead, before his distant mechanism revives him, his ice assassins take immediate actions and teleport away to plot his demise.

11. We take God Blooded of Vecna again to purge the memory of our deed

12. With NI copies of himself out there conspiring to kill him, the mage is in a bit of hot water :p

[Flickerdart]

2. Have a very high knowledge planes check to know where his private demiplane is that he astral projects from


Astral projection can actually only be used from the Material Plane. The spell has no provisions in its text for what would happen if it were used on another plane.



...
You project your astral self onto the Astral Plane, leaving your physical body behind on the Material Plane in a state of suspended animation.
...
If the second body or the astral form is slain, the cord simply returns to your body where it rests on the Material Plane, thereby reviving it from its state of suspended animation.
...
The spell lasts until you desire to end it, or until it is terminated by some outside means, such as dispel magic cast upon either the physical body or the astral form, the breaking of the silver cord, or the destruction of your body back on the Material Plane (which kills you).


While the body may be moved around as long as the spell is in effect, if your astral form is slain while your body is not on the Material Plane, the spell doesn't say that anything happens, so you never wake up.

[Stealth Marmot]

Monk with Improved Grapple and a decently high strength.

Have him run/sneak up to the wizard, and proceed to grapple him, beating him unconscious.

For extra mental damage, have the monk call him a nerd and give him wedgies and pink bellies for his unarmed damage to give the poor wizard flashbacks of high school.

[ryu]

Monk with Improved Grapple and a decently high strength.

Have him run/sneak up to the wizard, and proceed to grapple him, beating him unconscious.

For extra mental damage, have the monk call him a nerd and give him wedgies and pink bellies for his unarmed damage to give the poor wizard flashbacks of high school.

Freedom of movement/heart of water. Mage proceeds to laugh at you repeatedly while beating you into the ground with spells.

[Stealth Marmot]

Freedom of movement/heart of water. Mage proceeds to laugh at you repeatedly while beating you into the ground with spells.

Have a necklace of "antimagic field"

[Flickerdart]

Have a necklace of "antimagic field"

a) This is a custom item, not one that currently exists in the game.
b) This is a preposterously expensive item by the magic item creation guidelines.
c) You are not immune to its effects, meaning that you are denying yourself all magic and all magic items. If you don't understand why this is bad, try an easier challenge first.

And you still have no way to get around divinations, contingency, minions, senses superior to your stealth skills, AKA all the stuff we've been discussing in the thread so far.

[Gruftzwerg]

At the moment I am tinkering around the "Nameless" Dragon Psychosis (Dragon #313) since it has some nice gifts, for the lack of spellcasting and SLAs (of the base dragon). The question is, is there any Dragon that would still have other Abilities to be of a threat to the Mage when he lost his Spellcasting/SLAs ?

here just a quick overview of the "Nameless" dragon psychosis:

- lose base creatures spellcasting/SLA

- Absence (SU): permanent nondetection @ CLVL 20th

- Immune to Mindaffecting abilities

- Inviolate Name: know when someone speaks your name in 100mile radius (even on other planes)

- + 5 SR or 15 SR if base creature didn't have any SR

- Vanished History: The DC to get any info about the dragon is his Spell Resistance + 10



Dunno, but maybe we can find a fitting base Dragon (build?) for this. (still searching)

[Grod_The_Giant]

Monk with Improved Grapple and a decently high strength.

Have him run/sneak up to the wizard, and proceed to grapple him, beating him unconscious.

For extra mental damage, have the monk call him a nerd and give him wedgies and pink bellies for his unarmed damage to give the poor wizard flashbacks of high school.
Even if it wasn't for defenses, Monks are poor grapplers; they have medium BAB and difficulty managing a good Strength score. Barbarian would be better, and at that not great.

However, danielxcutter did say

Um... Second or third for the purposes of this thread, I guess?
Meaning that we don't have to worry about insane TO builds with Vecna-blooded wizards hiding in impenetrable demiplanes. To keep things from getting too Schrodinger in here, actually, let's propose a basic loadout-- danielxcutter, let me know how you'd like this altered, but let's figure that our hypothetical mage has defenses granting them

Flight
Freedom of Movement
True Seeing
Miss Chance and/or Invisibility
Mind Blank
High-enough-to-be-difficult spell resistance, Spell Turning, excellent Counterspelling, or some such nonsense
Delay Death, Greater Ironguard, Hide Life, or some other similar "just say no to damage" effect
A Contingent Heal, and a Contingent Teleport

And has a set of available spells including

A tactical teleport spell
A strategic teleport spell
Some BFC
A level-appropriate Summon Monster
Some metamagic'd-up blasts
Save-or-lose spells targetting all three saves


Do those seem like reasonable conditions for the challenge?

[danielxcutter]

Even if it wasn't for defenses, Monks are poor grapplers; they have medium BAB and difficulty managing a good Strength score. Barbarian would be better, and at that not great.

However, danielxcutter did say

Meaning that we don't have to worry about insane TO builds with Vecna-blooded wizards hiding in impenetrable demiplanes. To keep things from getting too Schrodinger in here, actually, let's propose a basic loadout-- danielxcutter, let me know how you'd like this altered, but let's figure that our hypothetical mage has defenses granting them

Flight
Freedom of Movement
True Seeing
Miss Chance and/or Invisibility
Mind Blank
High-enough-to-be-difficult spell resistance, Spell Turning, excellent Counterspelling, or some such nonsense
Delay Death, Greater Ironguard, Hide Life, or some other similar "just say no to damage" effect
A Contingent Heal, and a Contingent Teleport

And has a set of available spells including

A tactical teleport spell
A strategic teleport spell
Some BFC
A level-appropriate Summon Monster
Some metamagic'd-up blasts
Save-or-lose spells targetting all three saves


Do those seem like reasonable conditions for the challenge?

Yeeeaaah, sounds right.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Yeeeaaah, sounds right.
Thus, any build challenging said mage will need, in rough order:

A way to spot the Wizard
A way to prevent them from teleporting away
A way to survive instant-loss counterattacks
A way to bring down "just say no" defenses
A way to reach a flying Wizard

The easiest way to do all that is probably as a full caster of your own, sadly.


(You might want to adapt those terms and put them in the OP, to hopefully head off more TO-based answers)

[Anthrowhale]

The former still allows you to cast though.

I agree---Selective[You] AMF allows you to cast spells. It just that the effect of the spells are suppressed if/where they overlap with the AMF.



The latter only works for Dead Magic Zones, something I'd forgotten.


Perhaps there is a workaround here. If you use Genesis to create a Dead Magic demiplane, then make yourself native, then use Planar Bubble as a Shadow Weave user? The effect should be something like a modestly weaker form of Initiate of Mystra in an AMF.



Ultimately Elemental Weirds' infinite free action Divinations ...


Why is it free action? The description as 'at will' so I was assuming a default standard action.


...Spell Weaver has 1000 mile telepathy...

1000 is certainly greater than 50 if it works. My expectation though is that the difference between 50 mile and 1000 mile mindsight is not that great in practice. In both cases you have more than adequate warning and oversight on creatures moving at ordinary scales. The only spell I know of which 1000 mile mindsight defeats but 50 mile mindsight does not is a caster level 9 teleport with a 900 mile range.

[Jack_Simth]

Perhaps there is a workaround here. If you use Genesis to create a Dead Magic demiplane, then make yourself native, then use Planar Bubble as a Shadow Weave user? The effect should be something like a modestly weaker form of Initiate of Mystra in an AMF.The Planar Bubble just has to be on a native. You don't necessarily need to be the native. If you, say, craft a construct while on the plane, out of materials from that plane, then it's a native under your control. You may also want to make it timeless with respect to magic, so that the planar bubble doesn't expire.

[One Step Two]

No.

Please keep your build to your own threads.

Oooh!

I've been unable to post to the forum for a while, was there another poorly built sorcerer who challenged the forum with tons of edits and poor grammar? Those are always an amusing train wreck to witness!

[AvatarVecna]

Oooh!

I've been unable to post to the forum for a while, was there another poorly built sorcerer who challenged the forum with tons of edits and poor grammar? Those are always an amusing train wreck to witness!

Depends on how you define "another". :smallwink:

[Anthrowhale]

The Planar Bubble just has to be on a native. You don't necessarily need to be the native. If you, say, craft a construct while on the plane, out of materials from that plane, then it's a native under your control. You may also want to make it timeless with respect to magic, so that the planar bubble doesn't expire.

The minor advantage of being the native rather than using a native is that you can't lose yourself. A shadowcast Contingent Last Breath should work.

This brings up a question though: what happens if a disjunction burst hits a planar bubble from a dead magic plane? Dead Magic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/planes.htm#deadMagic)
functions in all respects like an antimagic field spell except w.r.t. shadowcasting. Since effects generally overlap without interference and AMF specifically protects other spells against Disjunction this seems to mean that Disjunction has no effect except a caster level % fraction of the time.

[Jack_Simth]

I just read Native MM pg 313.That one explicitly only applies to outsiders. Not actually where you want to be looking. If that was the requirement, then Planar Bubble is a rather useless spell in general.


The minor advantage of being the native rather than using a native is that you can't lose yourself.
How does that compare to being able to Planar Bubble minions from several different planes with different properties as you need them?

[Anthrowhale]

How does that compare to being able to Planar Bubble minions from several different planes with different properties as you need them?

It's not exclusive---if you are native to a demiplane then you can still do this, right?

[Jack_Simth]

It's not exclusive---if you are native to a demiplane then you can still do this, right?
Yes and no. What happens when Planar Bubbles for different planes overlap?

So yes, with enough work you can probably make yourself native to a particular demiplane, and cast Planar Bubble on minions from others... but if you can only effectively use one at a time anyway, what's the point?

Plus, of course, if you need to escape with Invoke Magic + Dismissal for one reason or another... it's better if it's really hard to pin down where, exactly, you'll end up (demiplanes are small).

[Anthrowhale]

What happens when Planar Bubbles for different planes overlap?

Nonconflicting effects should both apply. When things conflict it's less clear and may depend on the nature of the conflict.


So yes, with enough work you can probably make yourself native to a particular demiplane, and cast Planar Bubble on minions from others... but if you can only effectively use one at a time anyway, what's the point?

Why do we want multiple planar effects? What is an example of two desirable things that conflict? The only thing I'm aware of is (a) using a nonstatic planar bubble on a static plane to allow affecting the plane and (b) playing with time traits.



Plus, of course, if you need to escape with Invoke Magic + Dismissal for one reason or another... it's better if it's really hard to pin down where, exactly, you'll end up (demiplanes are small).

I'm skeptical this works. Nothing in Invoke Magic says that Invoke Magic itself works on a Dead Magic plane.

[Eldariel]

Perhaps there is a workaround here. If you use Genesis to create a Dead Magic demiplane, then make yourself native, then use Planar Bubble as a Shadow Weave user? The effect should be something like a modestly weaker form of Initiate of Mystra in an AMF.

Indeed, that would work.


Why is it free action? The description as 'at will' so I was assuming a default standard action.

It says so:
"Prescience (Su): At will and as a free action, a weird can duplicate the
effect of any of the following divination spells..."


1000 is certainly greater than 50 if it works. My expectation though is that the difference between 50 mile and 1000 mile mindsight is not that great in practice. In both cases you have more than adequate warning and oversight on creatures moving at ordinary scales. The only spell I know of which 1000 mile mindsight defeats but 50 mile mindsight does not is a caster level 9 teleport with a 900 mile range.

This is true if using extremes. But practically speaking if e.g. Teleporting away, you'd rather Teleport to a location you know - if you don't expect your opponent to have a 1000 mile radar, well, it might very well be closer than that. In general, it'd be one of the better ways to hunt a target down; you need just a couple of strategically placed teleports to cover even 10000 square miles (since you get to cover 1000 mile radius circles each time).

[Jack_Simth]

Nonconflicting effects should both apply. When things conflict it's less clear and may depend on the nature of the conflict.Here's the thing, though: Planar Bubble doesn't apply a list of traits. It causes the area to emulate the target's native environment (at least, the version I'm looking at in Spell Compendium, page 158, lists it that way). Overlapping areas would be akin to casting Polymorph on a creature twice, once to turn it into a lion, once to turn it into an eagle. You don't get a winged lion. You're looking at Same Effect with Different Results (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/castingSpells.htm#sameEffectwithDifferingResults) from the combining magical effects section of the magic overview. "Usually the last spell in the series trumps the others."


Why do we want multiple planar effects? What is an example of two desirable things that conflict? The only thing I'm aware of is (a) using a nonstatic planar bubble on a static plane to allow affecting the plane and (b) playing with time traits. Lots of reasons. We may want to trap someone else by way of putting just them in a slow time plane. Doing that means casting Planar Bubble on a creature native to one that happens to be adjacent to the real target (from outside range, of course). You may find that someone else is pulling a related trick, and want to swap out effects to counter their planar bubble. You may find that you want enhanced shadow spells for a while because they're useful to you right now. You may find that you want enhanced Fire spells for a while for the same reason. Or you may want to impede Shadow or Fire effects if your opponent likes to use them.


I'm skeptical this works. Nothing in Invoke Magic says that Invoke Magic itself works on a Dead Magic plane.If you don't count the "You cause a flicker of magic to momentarily exist in a place where magic cannot normally function, such as within the area of an antimagic field, a dead magic area, or a null-magic plane" (emphasis added) in the opening sentence of the spell as permitting the spell itself to exist, then Invoke Magic is a completely useless spell, as it doesn't operate in an antimagic field or dead magic area either. The intent seems exceedingly obvious.

[Anthrowhale]

It says so:
"Prescience (Su): At will and as a free action, a weird can duplicate the
effect of any of the following divination spells..."


You're right. Vision and Contact Other Plane in particular seem potentially overwhelming when used as a free action. Reading through, it seems like the elemental pool baggage might be rough to deal with on a persistent basis, but it seems hard to argue with using the Elemental Weird periodically. It seems like the choices are:

Spellweaver Telepathy + Mindsight: 1000 mile range, but Spellweaver-only might plausibly limit use as a houserule. (RAW seems to be unambiguously overwhelming mindsight.)
Formian Queen Telepathy + Mindsight: 50 mile range, although you really need to layer on another form for mobility.
Elemental Weird's Prescience: Free action legend lore + Contact Other Plane which seems(?) to require a 20'x40' elemental pool.



This is true if using extremes. But practically speaking if e.g. Teleporting away, you'd rather Teleport to a location you know - if you don't expect your opponent to have a 1000 mile radar, well, it might very well be closer than that. In general, it'd be one of the better ways to hunt a target down; you need just a couple of strategically placed teleports to cover even 10000 square miles (since you get to cover 1000 mile radius circles each time).

The ability to check every continent in a day does seem fairly impressive.


Here's the thing, though: Planar Bubble doesn't apply a list of traits. It causes the area to emulate the target's native environment (at least, the version I'm looking at in Spell Compendium, page 158, lists it that way). Overlapping areas would be akin to casting Polymorph on a creature twice, once to turn it into a lion, once to turn it into an eagle. You don't get a winged lion. You're looking at Same Effect with Different Results (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/castingSpells.htm#sameEffectwithDifferingResults) from the combining magical effects section of the magic overview. "Usually the last spell in the series trumps the others."


This seems correct.



Lots of reasons. We may want to trap someone else by way of putting just them in a slow time plane. Doing that means casting Planar Bubble on a creature native to one that happens to be adjacent to the real target (from outside range, of course). You may find that someone else is pulling a related trick, and want to swap out effects to counter their planar bubble. You may find that you want enhanced shadow spells for a while because they're useful to you right now. You may find that you want enhanced Fire spells for a while for the same reason. Or you may want to impede Shadow or Fire effects if your opponent likes to use them.


I agree these make sense, but I'm not yet seeing why a caster making themselves native is a disadvantage. The plane of citizenship seems like a resource and it's not obvious that the material plane should be favored.



If you don't count the "You cause a flicker of magic to momentarily exist in a place where magic cannot normally function, such as within the area of an antimagic field, a dead magic area, or a null-magic plane" (emphasis added) in the opening sentence of the spell as permitting the spell itself to exist, then Invoke Magic is a completely useless spell, as it doesn't operate in an antimagic field or dead magic area either. The intent seems exceedingly obvious.

I disagree there. The following line "This allows..." clarifies what exactly the flicker of magic does: it allows the casting of a single 4th level spell. There are significant potential uses of Invoke Magic which involve a wizard standing outside of an AMF or Dead Magic area and casting spells on something within so this remains a powerful near-unique effect. For example, Invoke Magic[Sudden Maximize Enervation] is potentially very powerful in some situations. Even Invoke Magic[Phantasmal Killer] could be pretty overwhelming when an enemy has voluntarily stripped themselves of all magical defense.

[Jack_Simth]

I agree these make sense, but I'm not yet seeing why a caster making themselves native is a disadvantage. The plane of citizenship seems like a resource and it's not obvious that the material plane should be favored.
You're facing off against an enemy that is at least your equal in power, preparation, and sneakiness. Something comes up, and for one reason or another you retreat by dismissing yourself. Your enemy knows that this method of retreat is a possibility, knows you pretty well, and attempted to take measures against the possibility before you tried it.

Which would you prefer:
That they have an entire material plane to hunt you down on and/or cover for preparing their nasty surprise for when you Dismiss yourself?
That they have a tiny little plane to hunt you down on and/or cover for preparing their nasty surprise for when you Dismiss yourself?

Yes, it's a resource, and yes, you can do some interesting things that way... but it also has drawbacks, and they're worth weighing. Your private demiplane is probably safe enough normally... but it can potentially be attacked and subverted while you're away. If it's small-ish, then you can put up defenses to hope to counter such, but offense is usually easier than defense, and if your defenses there are overcome then your sanctuary becomes a deathtrap. If you are native to a literally infinite plane, on the other hand, they're going to have some problems ID'ing where you'll land. Yeah, it's harder to make a safe arrival point, but it's MUCH harder to turn into a trap for you.

I disagree there. The following line "This allows..." clarifies what exactly the flicker of magic does: it allows the casting of a single 4th level spell. There are significant potential uses of Invoke Magic which involve a wizard standing outside of an AMF or Dead Magic area and casting spells on something within so this remains a powerful near-unique effect. For example, Invoke Magic[Sudden Maximize Enervation] is potentially very powerful in some situations. Even Invoke Magic[Phantasmal Killer] could be pretty overwhelming when an enemy has voluntarily stripped themselves of all magical defense.Significant potential uses? Ok, yes, not 100% useless. Sure. Still, it's way too niche for a 9th level spell with an expensive component. Seriously: In your gaming career, how many times have you needed to deal with something sitting in an AMF that didn't include you? Enough to be worth preparing a 9th level spell for the possibility? Nah. Most the time, you'll just use a few Orb of Fires and call it a day.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Oooh!

I've been unable to post to the forum for a while, was there another poorly built sorcerer who challenged the forum with tons of edits and poor grammar? Those are always an amusing train wreck to witness!
They've been popping up every few days and getting deleted within a few hours.

[Anthrowhale]

Which would you prefer:
That they have an entire material plane to hunt you down on and/or cover for preparing their nasty surprise for when you Dismiss yourself?
That they have a tiny little plane to hunt you down on and/or cover for preparing their nasty surprise for when you Dismiss yourself?


I can see your point, but the answer is not clear to me. If your demiplane is static dead magic the abilities of all visitors to the plane are severely crimped without preparation and a rather specific build making this a powerfully advantageous setting within which to fight off an attack. And hiding seems flawed: even if you randomize your location within the entire multiverse, Metafaculty can track you down.


Still, it's way too niche for a 9th level spell with an expensive component.

It's a fair point that other approaches exist to dismantle opponents inside an AMF. Maybe when using Invoke Magic defensively it becomes more convincing? Consider casting AMF on a Warblade followed by Friendly Fire, Sheltered Vitality, Favor of the Martyr, Freedom of Movement, Beastland Ferocity, and Delay Death with all of these extended persistent and all spells after the AMF cast via Invoke Magic (lets not worry about how precisely). You've spent 6K gp and created a formidable damage machine for the next 48 hours that could power through most epic level combats. I could imagine situations where this is a pretty good move.

I agree that Invoke Magic is a niche spell, but a no save "I have magic and you don't" is a remarkably powerful effect when used wisely. Balancewise, if it was a 7th level slot and had no material cost it would be a dominating tactic. At 9th level with 1K gp, it's a powerful high level option. There are a half dozen 9th level wizard spells which seem generally more useful (Timestop, Shapechange, Gate, Disjunction, Foresight, Absorption) and easily a half dozen which are less impressive (Freedom, Imprisonment, Summon Monster IX, Refuge, Meteor Swarm, Weird, Energy Drain, Soul Bind,...).

[Jack_Simth]

I can see your point, but the answer is not clear to me. If your demiplane is static dead magic the abilities of all visitors to the plane are severely crimped without preparation and a rather specific build making this a powerfully advantageous setting within which to fight off an attack. And hiding seems flawed: even if you randomize your location within the entire multiverse, Metafaculty can track you down.
Oh yes, there's ways to track you down. No disagreement there. It does, however, take a bit, which means you can begin moving and preparing, having seen at least some of your opponent's methods, while your opponent is spending the time and actions to do so.

Plus... rather specific build? The aspect in question is to use the shadow weave rather than the weave so that you can work on a dead magic plane without issues. It's basically one feat for an arcanist. Limited Wish for Psychic Reformation (under the "Produce any other effect whose power level is in line with the above effects" clause, seeing as how a 4th level power is, use-wise, supposed to be in line with a 4th level spell, which Limited Wish can most assuredly do), and maybe one wis-boosting item (which is good for the save anyway), and you're good to go.


It's a fair point that other approaches exist to dismantle opponents inside an AMF. Maybe when using Invoke Magic defensively it becomes more convincing? Consider casting AMF on a Warblade followed by Friendly Fire, Sheltered Vitality, Favor of the Martyr, Freedom of Movement, Beastland Ferocity, and Delay Death with all of these extended persistent and all spells after the AMF cast via Invoke Magic (lets not worry about how precisely). You've spent 6K gp and created a formidable damage machine for the next 48 hours that could power through most epic level combats. I could imagine situations where this is a pretty good move.

I agree that Invoke Magic is a niche spell, but a no save "I have magic and you don't" is a remarkably powerful effect when used wisely. Balancewise, if it was a 7th level slot and had no material cost it would be a dominating tactic. At 9th level with 1K gp, it's a powerful high level option. There are a half dozen 9th level wizard spells which seem generally more useful (Timestop, Shapechange, Gate, Disjunction, Foresight, Absorption) and easily a half dozen which are less impressive (Freedom, Imprisonment, Summon Monster IX, Refuge, Meteor Swarm, Weird, Energy Drain, Soul Bind,...).
And with your interpretation... it ONLY does things of use in extremely rare circumstance (your opponent casts AMF) or in deliberate combination with several other effects and a lot of tricks.

Freedom, on the other hand, undoes a lot of different spells with a particular theme.
Imprisonment puts an opponent away in a manner that requires 9ths and some knowledge to undo.
Summon Monster IX gives you a disposable meatshield (or some healing).
et cetera.

Everything you listed under the "less impressive" list does something useful on it's own, and doesn't require extremely rare circumstances or a lot of setup and tricks to use effectively. Under your chosen interpretation, Invoke Magic is almost never useful without a build designed to carefully exploit it or under very rare circumstances. It doesn't belong in the same category with your chosen interpretation.

[danielxcutter]

Duuuuudes. I appreciate the effort, but I think this is kinda off topic.

[Gruftzwerg]

k, lets get back to topic.

I am still searching for the best base dragon for the "nameless" psychosis.

But while searching, I stepped upon a nice template for dragons that could be of further help.

"Lawful Archdragon" Template:
(a few mentionable goodies)

- immune to disease, fear, and polymorph effects

- Telepathy 100ft.

- True Seeing

- Antimagic Breath - damaged targets are 1d4 rounds effected as is in an AMF

- Aura of Imposing Order (+20ft / age category): Non-lawful creatures are affected by "Doom" (like the spell). Further any energy attack (including spells like fireball / lightning bolt), that is not cast by the Archdragon, deals minimum damage.
(edit: note, that only the target of the spell/effect needs to be in the aura, not the caster/source of the attack).

- cold, electricity, and fire resistance 10

- +4 Level adjustment

---
Nameless Lawful Steel-Archdragon (?)

At the moment my best result for the base dragon would be a Steel Dragon. They are lawful, and add acid immunity (to the "cold, electricity, and fire resistance 10" of Archdragon). Further they get a +10 bonus SR on Spell up to 4th lvl and already have good SR values (and +5 from nameless not to forget). And if we add the "Aura of Imposing Order" (from Archdragon), most magical energy attacks, shouldn't be a threat anymore.

I'll continue my search, but maybe someone else has a better suggestion for the base dragon?

And on a last note: Do we count DWK as "true dragons" for this topic? (!NOTE! I didn't said/asked if they are or are not TD. We had this debate a few weeks ago with no clear end of the story after about 15 pages and I don't intend to start a new discussion here. I just wanna know if we count em in or not for this thread). Cause if we count em in, we could start thinking about "Nameless Lawful DWK Archdragon" - builds :smallwink:

[danielxcutter]

For a monster to be used by a DM, that's actually a good choice.

For DWKs: not a chance due to the controversy about it.

[Gruftzwerg]

On a further note: Why should the "Nameless Lawful Steel-Dragon" hold a grudge against "the Mage"?

Quite simple..
The nameless dragon knows how all these lowlife arcane insects are. When they get a tiny bit of power, they desire more than they can handle. And sooner or later they will step upon dragon magic. And it won't end there. They want to know everything about dragon magic and this is where the problem starts. The nameless dragon is part of this arcane history that "the mage" is dipping into. And any thread to revealing his name should be get rid of ASAP ;)

PS: Sry for going a bit offtopic. Somehow, today I feel like I need to tell some tales.. and where should I tell em in not on a RPG board xD

edit: to complete the post^^
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0627.html

[Jack_Simth]

Duuuuudes. I appreciate the effort, but I think this is kinda off topic.

Quite right. As you wish.

[Anthrowhale]

For the OP, a modified form of Exfighter might be adequate for a non-spellcasting solution (which is super hard).

For a spellcasting solution, here's an approach (build discussion below).

Cast Selective[You] AMF. You now suppress magic in a 10' radius. Repeat a few times for proof against a lucky Disjunction.
Cast Ghostform. You are now incorporeal.
Cast Superior Invisibility. You are now invisible to all senses except touch (negated by ghostform) and taste.
Cast Planar Bubble. You now override planar traits in a 10' radius defeating things like the static trait.
Cast Mystic Shield. You are now immune to L6- spells (i.e. Invoke Magic).
Cast Friendly Fire. You are now immune to ranged attack (i.e. Heightened Orbs)
Cast Favor of the Martyr. You are now immune to daze (i.e. Celerity drawback)
Cast Twin Greater Arcane Fusion[Twin Arcane Fusion [ Celerity, ??], Celerity]. You now have 6 standard actions.

Cast Metafaculty (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/metafaculty.htm) to learn about the target. If it did not work or something is off, restart.
Wishport next to the target
Cast Silent Twin Greater Arcane Fusion[Twin Arcane Fusion[Twin Maximized Empowered Transdimensional Hail of Stone, Twin Maximized Empowered Transdimensional Hail of Stone], Twin Maximized Empowered Transdimensional Hail of Stone] on the target's space doing an expected 525 damage.
Cast Silent Twin Greater Arcane Fusion[Twin Arcane Fusion[Twin Maximized Empowered Transdimensional Hail of Stone, Twin Maximized Empowered Transdimensional Hail of Stone], Twin Maximized Empowered Transdimensional Hail of Stone] on the target's space doing an expected 525 damage.
Cast Silent Rapid Barghest's feast on the corpse. There is now a 50% chance that no mortal magic can return the target to life.
Silent Wishport away.



The only defense I know of against this is [Ex] immunity to damage, [Ex] immediate actions, absurdly many hp, allies nearby, Lichdom, or Initiate of Mystra. Allies & lichdom are the most relevant. Allies must have immediate actions, true seeing, and either Disjunctions to plow through the AMF or some method to protect the mage from an AoE spell inside an AMF. Lichdom requires more preparation to additionally track down a phylactery.

Doing this requires something like Initiate of Mystra, spell access, and an ability/willingness to cast expensive spells (i.e. desperation or Dweomerkeeper). All metamagic can be provided by a chosen demiplane with enhanced magic for the relevant spells & metamagic.

Something like an Archivist 3/Church Inquisitor 2/Dweomerkeeper 10/Hathran 5 would be able to get everything except Metafaculty, which could be accessed by UPD. The obvious way to handle this with AMF is to Shapechange into a form larger than the AMF effect, do UPD for Metafaculty, and then Shapechange/polymorph to normal size. Dweomerkeeper is qualified for using Substitute Domain[Spell] for access to arcane spells and then Substitute Domain[Magic] for DK qualification. Initiate of Mystra is qualified using Hathran L3 advancing Archivist which indirectly uses the cleric list as per Dragon Magic (page 15?). Archivist access for arcane spells is most straightforwardly provided by scribing a scroll with an ally providing the relevant spell component although it can be done in a self-contained fashion using Customize Domain[Magic] (Dragon #325).

It's much harder to get Initiate of Mystra on a Wizard or Sorcerer. The approaches I know are Cleric 3/Wizard 17 (ew) or Wizard 5/Rainbow Servant 10/Hathran 5 which has no room for Dweomerkeeper.

[Jack_Simth]

For the OP, a modified form of Exfighter might be adequate for a non-spellcasting solution (which is super hard).

For a spellcasting solution, here's an approach (build discussion below).

Cast Selective[You] AMF. You now suppress magic in a 10' radius. Repeat a few times for proof against a lucky Disjunction.
Cast Ghostform. You are now incorporeal.
Cast Superior Invisibility. You are now invisible to all senses except touch (negated by ghostform) and taste.
Cast Planar Bubble. You now override planar traits in a 10' radius defeating things like the static trait.
Cast Mystic Shield. You are now immune to L6- spells (i.e. Invoke Magic).
Cast Friendly Fire. You are now immune to ranged attack (i.e. Heightened Orbs)
Cast Favor of the Martyr. You are now immune to daze (i.e. Celerity drawback)
Cast Twin Greater Arcane Fusion[Twin Arcane Fusion [ Celerity, ??], Celerity]. You now have 6 standard actions.

Cast Metafaculty (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/metafaculty.htm) to learn about the target. If it did not work or something is off, restart.
Wishport next to the target
Cast Silent Twin Greater Arcane Fusion[Twin Arcane Fusion[Twin Maximized Empowered Transdimensional Hail of Stone, Twin Maximized Empowered Transdimensional Hail of Stone], Twin Maximized Empowered Transdimensional Hail of Stone] on the target's space doing an expected 525 damage.
Cast Silent Twin Greater Arcane Fusion[Twin Arcane Fusion[Twin Maximized Empowered Transdimensional Hail of Stone, Twin Maximized Empowered Transdimensional Hail of Stone], Twin Maximized Empowered Transdimensional Hail of Stone] on the target's space doing an expected 525 damage.
Cast Silent Rapid Barghest's feast on the corpse. There is now a 50% chance that no mortal magic can return the target to life.
Silent Wishport away.



The only defense I know of against this is [Ex] immunity to damage, [Ex] immediate actions, absurdly many hp, allies nearby, Lichdom, or Initiate of Mystra. Allies & lichdom are the most relevant. Allies must have immediate actions, true seeing, and either Disjunctions to plow through the AMF or some method to protect the mage from an AoE spell inside an AMF. Lichdom requires more preparation to additionally track down a phylactery.

Doing this requires something like Initiate of Mystra, spell access, and an ability/willingness to cast expensive spells (i.e. desperation or Dweomerkeeper). All metamagic can be provided by a chosen demiplane with enhanced magic for the relevant spells & metamagic.

Something like an Archivist 3/Church Inquisitor 2/Dweomerkeeper 10/Hathran 5 would be able to get everything except Metafaculty, which could be accessed by UPD. The obvious way to handle this with AMF is to Shapechange into a form larger than the AMF effect, do UPD for Metafaculty, and then Shapechange/polymorph to normal size. Dweomerkeeper is qualified for using Substitute Domain[Spell] for access to arcane spells and then Substitute Domain[Magic] for DK qualification. Initiate of Mystra is qualified using Hathran L3 advancing Archivist which indirectly uses the cleric list as per Dragon Magic (page 15?). Archivist access for arcane spells is most straightforwardly provided by scribing a scroll with an ally providing the relevant spell component although it can be done in a self-contained fashion using Customize Domain[Magic] (Dragon #325).

It's much harder to get Initiate of Mystra on a Wizard or Sorcerer. The approaches I know are Cleric 3/Wizard 17 (ew) or Wizard 5/Rainbow Servant 10/Hathran 5 which has no room for Dweomerkeeper.

There's actually a number of places this can break.

Mindsight (Lords of Madness) or Arcane Sight (Core) or Lifesense (Libris Mortis) are all character options that can see you.
Initiate of Mystra is tricky to get, granted... however: There's clarification elsewhere that any caster that uses the Cleric list meets the critera needed for "Cleric Level" in the associated Initiate feats. This includes the Archivist, which can become Wizard+ in many circumstances.
Incorporeality does not ignore force effects. A variation on the tinfoil hat trick, using Riverine for the Shrink Item target, leaves your target outside your AMF with a Wall of Force between the two of you. If he's got a suitable Craft Contingent Spell for when the Riverine hat goes off like that, you've now wasted a Wish and alerted your mark that someone's out to get him.

There's probably others.

Edit: Like Troll Blooded! Ex regeneration (Fire/Acid) which causes the damage from Hail of Stone to become nonlethal - so the target isn't dead. ... and even at that, it's assuming favorable interpretations towards your build. For instance: Selective spell only protects you. That doesn't necessarily protect various spells you cast on your target (Barghest's Feast being of note).

[Anthrowhale]

There's actually a number of places this can break.

I agree.



Mindsight (Lords of Madness) or Arcane Sight (Core) or Lifesense (Libris Mortis) are all character options that can see you.


Yep.

As per the discussion with Eldariel, Arcane Sight could be negated by high level shadow casting. (A drawback of shadow casting is the 'Rend Shadow Weave' spell, but an Initiate of Mystra can overcome that.)

Lifesense could be overcome by shapechanging into an undead.

I don't see any RAW for overcoming Mindsight, but there are many ways to give a DM an excuse to houserule that it doesn't work since telepathy does not (you are in an AMF), telepathy by the wizard is suppressed (they are in the AMF), Superior Invisibility says only "touch or taste" senses work, and of course we could layer on mindblank if that was relevant.



Initiate of Mystra is tricky to get, granted... however: There's clarification elsewhere that any caster that uses the Cleric list meets the critera needed for "Cleric Level" in the associated Initiate feats. This includes the Archivist, which can become Wizard+ in many circumstances.


The test is slightly more complex: it's "use cleric spell list" and "patron deity required" so it's really Hathran 3 which qualifies. See here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20971938).



Incorporeality does not ignore force effects. A variation on the tinfoil hat trick, using Riverine for the Shrink Item target, leaves your target outside your AMF with a Wall of Force between the two of you.


More generally, it's difficult to exclude all possible custom items. In the case of Riverine it's not entirely clear that it blocks AMF since it isn't actually a wall of force. More generally, for this style of custom item you could wishport beneath the target (you are incorporeal) or wait until the target is nonvertical.



Edit: Like Troll Blooded! Ex regeneration (Fire/Acid) which causes the damage from Hail of Stone to become nonlethal - so the target isn't dead.


Right. This particular issue could be dealt with by using an alternate attack routine: Maximized Empowered Greater Harm with Poison Spell[Trollbane] using a Surge of Fortune immediate action to guarantee a hit. That does an expected 305 damage that penetrates regeneration and threatens a critical for double damage. Potentially, this could be paired with Spellflower and Girallon's blessing to land some additional attacks if that is not enough damage.



... and even at that, it's assuming favorable interpretations towards your build. For instance: Selective spell only protects you. That doesn't necessarily protect various spells you cast on your target (Barghest's Feast being of note).

Selective Spell does just two things: it protect you from winking out due to being incorporeal as per the Rules Compendium AMF rule changes (dropping "undead" from "incorporeal undead") and it plausibly allows you to use innate supernatural abilities (although they cannot manifest within the AMF). For Barghest's feast selective spell is irrelevant---only Initiate of Mystra matters.

Counting the changes above, 7 feats are specified (Ethran, Leadership, Initiate of Mystra, Shadow Weave Magic, Poison Spell, any metamagic, Scribe Scroll[Archivist]) so we haven't used two (with the Human bonus). Race is locked to a human. A fraction of spell slots are specified, and almost no wealth is used. Overall, there is a fair amount of room to address additional challenges although I expect not every possible mage can be handled.

[Jack_Simth]

More generally, it's difficult to exclude all possible custom items. In the case of Riverine it's not entirely clear that it blocks AMF since it isn't actually a wall of force. More generally, for this style of custom item you could wishport beneath the target (you are incorporeal) or wait until the target is nonvertical.
That aspect doesn't matter - it's a solid object of a material, so it blocks AMF by blocking line-of-effect. You are, however, going to have problems getting rid of it.

And it's not actually a custom item! Well, no more so than a stone, iron, or wood version would be. The entry for Riverene comes with an "other objects" pricing based on weight. And if you don't like Riverene, there's actually a way to get nonmagical stone that'll block incorporeals and line-of-effect with a feat and a few spells (Transdimensional Spell Wall of Stone + Stone Shape + Shrink Item will do you for this). Riverine you can buy, and money is usually less valuable than feats for most builds. You only need an instant for a good Contingency / Craft Contingent Spell, so the fact that you can demolish the wall isn't relevant, because it permits the contingency to take effect even if the DM rules that Contingency / Craft Contingent Spell can't directly deal with an AMF or future events.

Ooh, there's another potential break point: Technically, you're required to roll initiative on joining the encounter. Which means despite the issue that you've got spell effects in progress that are what's giving you actions, it's possible that your opponent has time to move out of range of your AMF, if he wins initiative.


Right. This particular issue could be dealt with by using an alternate attack routine: Maximized Empowered Greater Harm with Poison Spell[Trollbane] using a Surge of Fortune immediate action to guarantee a hit. That does an expected 305 damage that penetrates regeneration and threatens a critical for double damage. Potentially, this could be paired with Spellflower and Girallon's blessing to land some additional attacks if that is not enough damage.
Doesn't guarantee a failed save, though, and there's ways to fully negate damage on a successful one (Mettle comes to mind, and is usually Ex). Plus... Shadow Weave Magic and Initiate of Mystra on the same build? Doesn't that have some pretty significant fluff consequences?

Selective Spell does just two things: it protect you from winking out due to being incorporeal as per the Rules Compendium AMF rule changes (dropping "undead" from "incorporeal undead") and it plausibly allows you to use innate supernatural abilities (although they cannot manifest within the AMF). For Barghest's feast selective spell is irrelevant---only Initiate of Mystra matters.

Counting the changes above, 7 feats are specified (Ethran, Leadership, Initiate of Mystra, Shadow Weave Magic, Poison Spell, any metamagic, Scribe Scroll[Archivist]) so we haven't used two (with the Human bonus). Race is locked to a human. A fraction of spell slots are specified, and almost no wealth is used. Overall, there is a fair amount of room to address additional challenges although I expect not every possible mage can be handled.
Oh yes, everything has a counter, including the counters. You can go round & round & round with these. A Troll-blooded Bone Knight, for instance, would end up with Ex immunity to poison and nonlethal, and all damage dealt would be nonlethal. You'd need to stack up enough fire or acid damage to do the job. But then there are ways to be immune to Fire or Acid damage that could ignore an AMF, so Searing Spell becomes needed.... and round and round it goes.

[Doctor Despair]

Iirc the level 6 or 7 ability of Slayer blocks mindsight from detecting you

In general, the only problems I've found with stealth that can't be resolved are Dweomervision and Sense Magic

[Anthrowhale]

That aspect doesn't matter - it's a solid object of a material, so it blocks AMF by blocking line-of-effect.

Right.



You are, however, going to have problems getting rid of it.


If we wishport beneath the target or on top of the target, I believe there is no problem, correct?



And it's not actually a custom item!


I just meant 'custom item' in the sense that it is an item never discussed in any book.



Ooh, there's another potential break point: Technically, you're required to roll initiative on joining the encounter. Which means despite the issue that you've got spell effects in progress that are what's giving you actions, it's possible that your opponent has time to move out of range of your AMF, if he wins initiative.


If you cast Sign (+4), Nerveskitter (+5), Divine Agility (+5 enhance), Aura of Vitality (+2 morale), Inner Beauty (+2 sacred), Minute Form (+4 size) you get +22 to initiative in a manner which can not be countered by someone without Initiate of Mystra. Minute form also has the advantage that you could wishport _inside_ the target. Unless the target is Fine or smaller, you have total concealment making surprise very plausible. There might be a way to really crank up the mage's dexterity so that initiative should be a worry, but I'd need to see it spelled out.



Doesn't guarantee a failed save, though, and there's ways to fully negate damage on a successful one (Mettle comes to mind, and is usually Ex).


But, how do you get Ex mettle on a mage? Kinslayer 1 costs 4 feats and a level of casting. Hexblade 3 costs 3 levels of casting. It looks like Master Specialist(Abjuration) 7 is the only clean approach? Anyways, the orbs of searing fire approach below addresses that case.



Plus... Shadow Weave Magic and Initiate of Mystra on the same build? Doesn't that have some pretty significant fluff consequences?


Maybe... Mystra seems plausibly uncaring, but Shar might care, particularly if you use the Shadow Weave to snuff out Shadow Weave casters.



Oh yes, everything has a counter, including the counters. You can go round & round & round with these. A Troll-blooded Bone Knight, for instance, would end up with Ex immunity to poison and nonlethal, and all damage dealt would be nonlethal. You'd need to stack up enough fire or acid damage to do the job. But then there are ways to be immune to Fire or Acid damage that could ignore an AMF, so Searing Spell becomes needed.... and round and round it goes.

Since Bone Knight only advances divine casting... well, i guess you could call a Sha'ir a mage. Let's throw in Searing Spell and an alternate attack routine of Twin GAF[Twin AF[Twin Searing Empowered Maximized Admixed[Fire] Transdimensional Orb of Fire, Twin Searing Empowered Maximized Admixed[Fire] Transdimensional Lesser orb of fire], Twin Searing Empowered Maximized Admixed[Fired] Transdimensional Orb of Fire] which does >2K points of damage. This costs nothing resource-wise because it's just a different use of GAF.

Other counters to the attack routine?

[Anthrowhale]

Iirc the level 6 or 7 ability of Slayer blocks mindsight from detecting you

I'm skeptical about this, because Mindsight is not a "device, power, or spell". (Well, it could be a power, but in context this is referring to psionic powers.)

[Jack_Simth]

If we wishport beneath the target or on top of the target, I believe there is no problem, correct?
Depends on the specific form of 'hat'. If I have a traditional hat, a few 'body panels', and maybe some shoes, the same method works just fine.
I just meant 'custom item' in the sense that it is an item never discussed in any book.
Combinations of spells seldom are either. But it's really just a simple mostly-mundane, easily-shapeable thing.

If you cast Sign (+4), Nerveskitter (+5), Divine Agility (+5 enhance), Aura of Vitality (+2 morale), Inner Beauty (+2 sacred), Minute Form (+4 size) you get +22 to initiative in a manner which can not be countered by someone without Initiate of Mystra. Minute form also has the advantage that you could wishport _inside_ the target. Unless the target is Fine or smaller, you have total concealment making surprise very plausible. There might be a way to really crank up the mage's dexterity so that initiative should be a worry, but I'd need to see it spelled out.
You've introduced a problem in your build - you're now creating light (side effect of Divine Agility). Not that it matters... as I said: This sort of thing goes round & round. Gets boring after a while. And... I've about hit that point, so take care.

[Doctor Despair]

I'm skeptical about this, because Mindsight is not a "device, power, or spell". (Well, it could be a power, but in context this is referring to psionic powers.)

It's the only thing that even vaguely can block mindsight, and while "powers" is probably intended to refer to psionic powers, it did not say so specifically.

[Anthrowhale]

Depends on the specific form of 'hat'. If I have a traditional hat, a few 'body panels', and maybe some shoes, the same method works just fine.

Sorry, I used the wrong description. By "on top of" I meant "inside". No amount of body panels, shoes, hats, etc.. protect against a wishport inside the target. Also, apparently the result is total cover not merely total concealment.



You've introduced a problem in your build - you're now creating light (side effect of Divine Agility).


It's a reasonable thing to avoid but not ironclad when using the wishport-inside approach.


I've about hit that point, so take care.

Ok, thanks.

[emeraldstreak]

Other counters to the attack routine?

A cleverly worded Ready Action by a Bloodhound.

[Anthrowhale]

A cleverly worded Ready Action by a Bloodhound.

I'd need more details to understand.

[emeraldstreak]

I'd need more details to understand.

Bloodhound PrC (CAdventurer version, not FR) can ready an action against you outside initiative. It would require studying an image of you for 10 minutes once. If you trigger the wording bad things may happen before you ever get a chance to do something about it.

[Anthrowhale]

Bloodhound PrC (CAdventurer version, not FR) can ready an action against you outside initiative. It would require studying an image of you for 10 minutes once. If you trigger the wording bad things may happen before you ever get a chance to do something about it.

I see. Ready and Waiting is a pretty cool ability. It looks like a Contingent Celerity set to go off just before anyone uses a readied action is a hard counter.

[Gusmo]

I see. Ready and Waiting is a pretty cool ability. It looks like a Contingent Celerity set to go off just before anyone uses a readied action is a hard counter.

I'm not sure I would allow that wording as a celerity trigger. It feels very metagamey.

[ryu]

I'm not sure I would allow that wording as a celerity trigger. It feels very metagamey.

I mean the rules of the game are actually the rules of the world. Spells mention the levels of other spells in as a matter of determining effect. Spells directly state what types of actions they take to cast, and if applicable what kinds of actions they deny the target. There are literally references of gods referring to weapons with their number of pluses and everything.

[SirNibbles]

As others have mentioned, Divine Defiance (Fiendish Codex II page 83) will allow you to use Turn attempts as an immediate action to counterspell/Dispel.

Divine Denial (Exemplars of Evil page 24) will help you save vs divine casters by giving you +2 to saves vs divine spells and adding a Will save to any divine spell that doesn't allow a save normally.

A good amount of reach and lots of AoOs also helps casters from hitting you.

Bestow Curse, Greater (75% chance that the cursed victim can't take any actions on their turn) is also great if you can get it to land.

There's also the 8th level Sorcerer/Wizard spell Blackstaff (Magic of Faerun page 81) which causes your staff (which you can pass to someone else) to do a targeted Dispel on every hit, as well as eat up one of your target's spell slots/prepared spells on a successful hit (Will save negates). If you can pump up your DC high enough, you can be eating up several spell slots/prepared spells with a single full attack while, at the same time, stripping them of their magical protection.
_____

About your signature and getting Paladin as your result:

There are no divine or arcane casters in that game. There are simply Life (Green and White), Death (Black and Red), and Psych (Blue and Grey) magics. Any class can use all types of magic, but Paladins have a large bonus to beneficial aura effects regardless of the type/colour of magic. This leads them to be good as support builds who use magic auras to buff themselves and the entire party (since many beneficial auras affect the entire party).

[danielxcutter]

About your signature and getting Paladin as your result:

There are no divine or arcane casters in that game. There are simply Life (Green and White), Death (Black and Red), and Psych (Blue and Grey) magics. Any class can use all types of magic, but Paladins have a large bonus to beneficial aura effects regardless of the type/colour of magic. This leads them to be good as support builds who use magic auras to buff themselves and the entire party (since many beneficial auras affect the entire party).

Huh. That... Actually sounds a lot like me; I dislike leading but really love helping.