Project Unchained Witch

[Iwasforger03]

I'm always working on one thing or another out of boredom or interest. This time, my Project is the Unchained Witch. Specifically, the creation thereof. To that effect, I have deployed the following. I am taking comments and suggestions, focused at this time most on adding more spells to the Witch's spell list and improving her hex options. I am in the middle of compiling a list of and evaluating currently available hexes.

If this should be in homebrew, I'd appreciate either letting me know how to move it or tagging it to be moved, and I'll do what I can see it moved to the appropriate section.

Facebook Group Thread on this topic: (https://www.facebook.com/groups/fansofd20pfsrd/permalink/1379095438829920/)

The following is a link to a view only google document compiling and tracking suggestions made on this topic as part of Project Unchained Witch. I had to disable comments because suggestions were mucking things up, so post in this thread and I or my trusted ally will get to it.
Link (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ZW17GTVw48UFYl9XS9LUCPI2gS-6TjFYUN0cFxTOpH4/edit?usp=sharing)


Hey Giant I want to chat with ya'll about Witch.

Specifically: How to make Witch better.

Disclaimer/request: if you do not think witch is bad, flawed, or weak, please don't say so. this thread is not about whether or not witch IS or IS NOT bad. This thread continues on the presumption witch is definitely bad compared to the other full casters. If you have comments or suggestions regarding what can be fixed or improved, that's different. What i'm trying to avoid is comments stating "nothing needs fixing." Those are unhelpful. Inevitable, but unhelpful.

Witch is, conceptually, a fantastic idea. A magic user raised by hags maybe? someone who draws their arcane power from a strange and mysterious patron? has wicked hexes and the power to curse you into a frog? Sign me up!

Their execution.... sucks. It's bad. Witch is, mechanically, the worst executed and weakest full 9 class in the game. Every other full caster (casters who get access to 9th level spells) is superior to Witch. Both spell lists and secondary class abilities are just better, straight up.

This makes the Unlettered Arcanist a better witch than Witch, because they get arcanist exploits, which are just amazing. But They don't get patron (one of my favorite parts of witch) and they suffer from delayed spell access. Worth it mechanically compared to witch because of just how worthless most (not all, but most) hexes are.

Let’s examine the four major components of the Witch: Hexes, Spells, Familiar, Patrons

Hexes - Hexes are unlimited use abilities that can be selected ala cart for whatever purpose you have in mind… so long as that purpose is pure evil, debuffing your enemies instead of casting spells or anything else, and doesn’t mind failing and having no fallback. It takes until level four for the standard witch combo to come partially online, and until 8 for it to really be effective. That combo is Evil Eye and misfortune and Cackle, which allows the witch to maintain debuffs on a small number of enemies for an entire encounter… if those enemies don’t beat the save. Witch gets one shot at this because almost all hexes can be used, pass or fail, on a given enemy only once in a 24 hour period. This also reasonably makes the witch a major target and witch has almost no defense. Worse, this is one of the witch’s few good tactics using Hexes in combat. That shouldn’t be the case. The witch should have a number of effective combinations of hexes they can use, not just one set that actually works eventually, if the target fails their save.

Spells - Witch has the same number of spells per day as a Wizard, they are intelligence based, and they prepare spells. Except that they actually don’t match the wizard for spells. Witch doesn’t get the extra spell slot for specializing a wizard gets. They don’t get the Arcanist’s ability to switch out prepared spell slots at the equivalent cost of a level 1 spell slot if they really have to (something wizard can also get). They’re penalized when it comes to learning spells. Their familiars can’t learn spells as easily as wizards can copy spells from a spellbook (though I grant they have the singular advantage of costing no gold explicitely). They have to make the spellcraft check themselves, and thus do not benefit from the class skill bonus or their master’s superior intelligence score. If they want to learn from a scroll, they have to burn the scroll as part of trying to teach it to their familiar, so pass or fail the scroll is gone. For wizards, the scroll is only consumed if they use the scroll or succeed. Unlike a wizard, they cannot prepare a spell directly from a scroll nor teach a familiar spells they have already prepared.

In addition, the witch is a specialist in basically two schools of magic, enchantment and Transmutation, but doesn’t benefit from having the polymorph subschool. They don’t get strong Abjuration, but they have decent conjuration, especially the Cure series (a nearly unique advantage shared only with bard). They also miss out on many spells that would seem thematically appropriate (which seems to be what the whole class is built around), or gain spells at a later level than other classes (such as heal at 7th, Cure serious at 4th, etc). Their spell list is smaller than sorcere/wizard or cleric/oracle, they have no unique spells, and hold no advantages in casting spells, as none of their secondary class features grant them boosts to casting particular spells (as domains, mysteries, schools, bloodlines, and exploits do) on top of only ever gaining spells at the same or later spell level compared to another class, never sooner.

Familiars - Witch has a mandatory familiar. They can only get out of it with a couple archetypes, one of which is orc only (and no longer good thanks to errata). The familiar is… a weakness. If it dies, they can replace it expensively. It will not even know the full breadth of all spells the witch used to know, but instead know the bare minimum number of spells that witch could know. Despite their dependence on familiars, Witch does not possess Raise Animal companion, which restores animal companions, familiars, or bonded mounts for 1/5th the price of a raise dead spell. Familiars are better targets in combat that spell books, and while they have more hp, they still only have half the witch’s health. They are fragile, and as they contain the witch’s spellbook, it is unwise to risk them in combat by having them deliver hexes or touch spells, further decreasing their value for no real benefit.

Patrons - Patrons are the the class feature that, taken on its own, has no problems. It just gives you more spells known, for free, which is awesome. Pun not intended. It also expands the list of possible options a witch has, since in many cases Patron spells aren’t already on the witch’s spell list. That said, when taken together with the other features of the witch? Patron comes up short too. Precisely because it only grants spells, and nothing else. Most other class features of this type determine the progression of the entire class thematically, providing a number of powers superior to or equal to the best of hexes. Patron just… gives you more spells, which is nice, but not enough. Not when the witch is falling short in three other categories. Patron doesn’t even offer unique class skills like bloodlines or mysteries.


The Plan - How do we plan to solve this, now that we’ve received such excellent feedback from so many of you?

Our plan covers the four areas mentioned above, so I’ll go through them in order.
Step 1 - Hexes. We plan to improve or replace many of the currently available hexes so they have a little more kick or a little more utility. One of our big plans is making most hexes scale better with level. Some hexes will still require Major or Grand hexes to reach their full potential, but we’re going to raise their base potential as well. One example is the flight hex, which now requires a foci (a broom or staff), but will have a slightly increased flight time and from an earlier level. There will also be a Major and Grand hex version that are even better. Another example is the Healing hex, which now scales up to Cure critical wounds as a base hex (as opposed to having to take the Major hex version to get cure critical). The Major hex version unlocks the “Cure, Mass” series. They’ll also be useable on a single target more than once per day, but it will not be an unlimited number.

Step Two - Spells. We’ll be expanding the witch’s spell list to an extent, but probably not by as drastic a degree as some of you will expect. This is because of what we plan to do with Patrons, which I’ll cover last. However, spells like the polymorph spells series (or parts of it), additional divination, and many non-animal related druid spells will make their way onto the list. Last we plan to move most or all curses onto the witch’s list.

Step 3 - Familiars are currently a three fold plan. First we plan to archetype witch familiars more easily, allowing them greater variety and resourcefulness. Second is a series of hexes that boost the familiar, along with a small scaling boon granted to the familiar that is dependent on which Patron the witch has. Third, we plan to add both the Raise Animal Companion spell to the witch’s spell list and grant her, as part of her familiar class feature, an ability to raise their familiar up to once a week. This ability will take an hour per witch level and requires a foci that scales with level. As it is a foci, it is not expended and can be reused, but counts against her wealth by level. We may do a bit more to make witch the true master of familiars, but this is the basic plan for now. There will also be an option to “transfer spells” to a replacement familiar if the witch wants to change her familiar by taking the improved Familiar feat.

Step 4 - Patrons - we plan to slightly expand how many spells each patron offers. We’re looking at two per spell level. Patrons will also add their spells to the Witch’s class spell list for that specific witch. Lastly, witch will receive a Patron Spell Slot, similar to Domains, where they can prepare one of their patron spells (even if they don’t actually know it otherwise) at each level. This will replace learning the patron spell automatically. They will not need their familiar to prepare Patron spells. We’re also considering (but haven’t reached a decision yet) having Patrons provide or restrict access to specific hexes or additional powers, and probably an extra class skill as well.

[Kurald Galain]

You should probably start by explaining why you think the witch sucks.

How can you claim there aren't enough decent hexes to fill the witch's 11 slots, and then proceed to list 35 hexes you consider good enough already?

Regarding familiars, have you read the Familiar Folio which substantially buffs them; and did you know the witch can "take 10" on the check to learn spells (meaning she won't ever fail this)?

[Psyren]

What Kurald said. Though you've pre-emptively banned (or at least, attempted to ban) all discussion on whether or not the Witch is bad and have just asked us to accept it as fact, it's still impossible to discuss whether your fixes solve a problem unless we agree on what exactly that problem is. Simply saying "hexes are bad" or "the familiar is bad" without more detail isn't sufficient.

[Geddy2112]

Second Kurald and Psyren.

In addition, you are arguing a LOT of things that the witch can already do. As pointed out in the familiar folio. You specifically mention potions, channel energy, survival as a class skill, aging enemies, age resistance, additional class skills, stealing skill bonuses, and adding patron spells to the spell list. A witch can do every single one of these things and then some through archetypes and spells witches already have access to.

I agree with you that patrons need to be reworked, and that the witch spell list is not great. However, I am really looking forward to your explanation on why familiars are subpar.

[Barstro]

Disclaimer/request: if you do not think witch is bad, flawed, or weak, please don't say so. this thread is not about whether or not witch IS or IS NOT bad. This thread continues on the presumption witch is definitely bad compared to the other full casters.

As others have said, stifling discussion on what specific issues (if any) exist completely forestalls any sort of consensus as to the solution.

Similarly, saying that Witches are bad when compared to other full casters does not, in itself, mean that witches are bad or flawed in general. It could just mean that those other classes are too overpowered and the Witch is perfect.

Frankly, from the original topic, I assumed you were looking for a way to nerf Witches so that they would have to do something other than Evil-Eye/Misfortune/Cackle for the first three rounds. That combination alone allows the Witch to save three rounds worth of casting over the Wizard. I suppose that if your campaigns result in the 15-minute-day, then Witches are not as useful. I, however, prefer a more realistic 16+ hour day. Unlimited hexes in that scenario far outweigh anything that I would want from a Wizard.

[awa]

Personally i would not remove the child aspect of the scent power, I'm against making classes more generic as a general rule, instead I would give them scent and let them detect children better to keep the flavor but give them some more general utility.

edit Wait shouldn’t this be in homebrew if it’s not a discussion on witches being bad or not?

[Serafina]

The only thing that really has to be buffed for the Witch is the Patron.
Here, I'd suggest broadening the spell list to two spells per level, and making each patron spell spontaneously castable once per day (in addition to being able to prepare them). This fits well with the Witch being less studied than the Wizard, and actually takes care of their spell slot problem too.
For actual reworked patron spell lists, I'd suggest trying to include at least one off-list spell each level, and ideally they get to have one utility out-of-combat spell and one more directly useful spell each level too.

Other than that, there's really only Hexes as a Witch class feature.
Here, some things could use buffing - but frankly, a lot of Hexes are obviously NPC-intended, which is fine. They're there for GMs to have as part of their plot, bad options are allowed to exist. It's not the most elegant design, but here they're clearly allusions to, well, being a witch.
Personally I'd just make the Healing-Hex unlimited uses per day, because sooner or later you get unlimited out of combat healing anyway via wands.
But we should also consider nerfing certain Hexes.
It'd be nice if Slumber turned into something other than a save-or-disable. It could turn into a non-lethal blast (since taking non-lethal damage also makes people fall unconcious), maybe with the option to still put people to sleep if your witch level is sufficiently over their HD.
Other than that, you'd have to consider whether you really want to keep the routine of "misfortune, then cackle every round" that's currently so much part of the Witch.


As a potential "unchained" thing, you could also have Patrons grant fixed hexes at certain levels. There's a lot of obvious candidates such as the Healing-Hex for the Healing-patron, or the Charm-hex for the Enchantment-patron. This is also a good place to put more unique hexes, and ideally would lead your main choices of Hexes being combat-relevant ones while your patron provides a bunch of weaker/non-combat hexes so that you ultimately have more hexes without being outright more powerful.

[Ilorin Lorati]

The only thing that really has to be buffed for the Witch is the Patron.
Here, I'd suggest broadening the spell list to two spells per level, and making each patron spell spontaneously castable once per day (in addition to being able to prepare them). This fits well with the Witch being less studied than the Wizard, and actually takes care of their spell slot problem too.

A big part of the problem that I, personally, have with witches is that all Patron does is add them to your list of spells known... and then most Patrons give mostly spells they already have, which turns a core aspect of their class into a very small money saving feature.

Patron spell slots and/or the ability to spontaneously convert spell slots to patron spells would go a long way to fixing this, if not the entire way. I'm of the opinion that the other full casters should be more on par with Witch, not the other way around.



That said, why isn't this in the Homebrew forum?

[Wartex1]

Also, this goes against the design philosophy of Pathfinder Unchained, which wasn't to make classes stronger, but to make them more balanced and easier to play. That is why the Unchained Summoner is not as strong as the vanilla one. It's more balanced. Meanwhile, the vanilla Witch is already stronger than the vanilla Summoner.

Plus, I am going to dispute your claims that the Witch is the weakest full caster, as it is not only generally agreed to be Tier 1 versus the Sorcerer and Oracle being Tier 2, but it isn't restricted by Spells Known.

[Blyte]

I feel, like many classes, aspects of the witch class need some revision.

I disagree that the witch is weak, but it could use some serious errata (like nearly every class). I was in a long running campaign, playing a witch, and it felt like I was playing in a game with the title "super witch and the primates", because my witch outshined the other classes by leaps and bounds.

I feel the bonded witch, half-elf archetype, should be available to any race. I feel hexes like healing hex, should continue to scale with level, basically continuing to rank it up every 4 levels. My list goes on and on, but that goes for every class I study.

[Psyren]

"This class is stronger than other classes" is not reason for errata - especially when that is largely because of the additional words "played at my table" - and as noted above by others, other T1s (notably Wizard and Cleric) and even some T2s tend to be stronger anyway.

[Kurald Galain]

Frankly, from the original topic, I assumed you were looking for a way to nerf Witches so that they would have to do something other than Evil-Eye/Misfortune/Cackle for the first three rounds.

That's not a nerf. Witches would actually become stronger if they didn't open every combat with EE/MF.

Spells are more powerful than hexes (other than slumber). This is why you get limited spells and unlimited hexes. The main problem with the witch (and the kinny) is that Paizo overvalues at-will abilities.

[Psyren]

That's not a nerf. Witches would actually become stronger if they didn't open every combat with EE/MF.

Spells are more powerful than hexes (other than slumber). This is why you get limited spells and unlimited hexes. The main problem with the witch (and the kinny) is that Paizo overvalues at-will abilities.

Well, yes and no. Without meaningful hexes, they have the same number of spells as a generalist wizard, but from an overall inferior list.

They'd become stronger if you only have a small number of encounters per adventuring day, but if the GM has enough to put a strain on their spell allotment (which, in my opinion, the GM should) then relying on the hexes to stretch that as far as possible becomes more necessary.

[Secret Wizard]

#1 thing on my Witch rework list is removing the Cackle/Evil Eye/Sleep/Misfortune set of hexes and making hexes into something more interesting.

[Kurald Galain]

Well, yes and no. Without meaningful hexes, they have the same number of spells as a generalist wizard, but from an overall inferior list.
Yes, and that's a problem.

Witches are built on the assumption that wizards run out of spells (so the witch can keep going with hexes). However, this assumption is incorrect: wizards don't run out of spells. If you go either by the encounters-per-day guideline for GMs, or by most printed adventures, then a level 5 wizard (or cleric or druid) could cast a spell every round of combat and never run out.

What wizards do run out of is their top-level spells. So instead of making hexes (except slumber) the equivalent of first-level spells, they need to scale better.

They also need to provide more variety, because spamming either EE or Misf every round is really boring.

[Katrina]

IMHO, I do believe the Witch has a problem. When I read the flavor text for the witch and first heard about what they were trying to do, I thought; "Ooh, it's going to be like the 3.5 Warlock but more awesome in theme!". And it sort of is, but not really. As has been pointed out, Patron choices are mostly a minor thing, when that should be as important as a Cavelier's Order or a Wizard's School. I believe that putting Hexes and spell selections together under Patron Options would go a long way towards fixing that issue.

One thing to remember when trying to retool the Witch is that she is NOT a Wizard. If you want to play an Arcane Blaster, there's a class for that. (two or three, honestly.) Don't recreate something that already exists. The Witch should be something distinctly different, and that's what her current spell selection does. The removal of most damage spells makes her play like more of a Cursing debilitator or afflictor and less like the overwhelming magic cannon that is the Wizard.

[Barstro]

Witches are built on the assumption that wizards run out of spells (so the witch can keep going with hexes). However, this assumption is incorrect: wizards don't run out of spells. If you go either by the encounters-per-day guideline for GMs, or by most printed adventures, then a level 5 wizard (or cleric or druid) could cast a spell every round of combat and never run out.
Printed material, in my experience, is set up for a weak party. After level 7, my Witch never came close to running out of spells and she was the most powerful character in the party by far.
Similarly, guidelines rarely seem to result in a challenge to the party.



What wizards do run out of is their top-level spells. So instead of making hexes (except slumber) the equivalent of first-level spells, they need to scale better.
That's what Major Hex and Grand Hex are for.

Evil Eye starts at an amazing -2, even on a save. It gets to -4 at level 8. Split Hex Feat makes it a spammable -4 on two people, even if saved.

Ice Tomb (level 10) is a spammable save or "out of the fight"

That seems like fine scaling to me.


They also need to provide more variety, because spamming either EE or Misf every round is really boring.

Then don't do it. There are many options.

[Kurald Galain]

That's what Major Hex and Grand Hex are for.
Right, so no scaling whatsoever until level 8, at which point you get a minor boost and still have to wait until level 10 for something big. Most campaigns end around level 10.

So while the spells upgrade from 1st level to 4th level spells, the hexes remain stuck at their level-1 effect. That's an obvious lack of scaling, right there. If you call a -2 "amazing", which is weak even for a first-level spell, then I'm curious what superlatives you reserve for an area-effect save-or-lose (which are easily available among 4th-level spells).

[Psyren]

Thing is, they're not the equivalent of 1st-level spells. The closest analogue to Misfortune for instance is Pugwampi's Grace, a 3rd-level spell, and the hex version is spammable, Still (+1), Silent (+1), scales (+X Heighten), works on mindless creatures (+Coaxing/Threnodic/{?}) and even ignores SR/immunity (+?). Sure you have to cackle to keep it going, but that's a small price to pay for what would at minimum be 5th/6th level in spell form, and is usable on NI enemies per day.

Evil Eye is not as strong (mind-affecting) but many of the benefits above still apply, such as being still and silent, and with a longer duration you can even potentially use it socially. The fact that it is largely static is not a big deal - the enemies you're using it on may scale, but so do your allies. A static debuff can therefore still be helpful.

[Iwasforger03]

I greatly appreciate the feedback all of you have provided alongside the facebook group thread. We've been cataloging and contemplating and laying out plans since this was posted sunday on the facebook group, and the plan is coming together. We aren't quite ready for an official update (we could still change the plan) but I hope sometime today to post an update to the project with an actual plan of action going forward. We'll still be accepting feedback, ideas, suggestions, and critiques.

If somebody could explain how I can get this moved to homebrew (since it seems like that's where it should be) I'd appreciate it, and I'll see it done.

[Grand Arbiter]

If you PM a moderator, they can move it for you.

[Barstro]

Right, so no scaling whatsoever until level 8, at which point you get a minor boost and still have to wait until level 10 for something big. Most campaigns end around level 10.

So while the spells upgrade from 1st level to 4th level spells, the hexes remain stuck at their level-1 effect. That's an obvious lack of scaling, right there. If you call a -2 "amazing", which is weak even for a first-level spell, then I'm curious what superlatives you reserve for an area-effect save-or-lose (which are easily available among 4th-level spells).

Witches get pretty much the same number and level spells as Wizards, and they also get spammable hexes. My personal experience found those hexes to be extremely useful and the spell selection to be adequate.

I'd understand your point if Witches were a six-spell-level class, or if their casting were delayed a level or two. However, I honestly cannot figure out what your specific issue is, so I cannot really state why I feel differently.

To answer the question posed;
0) A shift of 2 at low levels can completely change a fight. The fact that the effect happens even if a save was made makes the saving throw moot. Follow it up with a now even harder to resist Misfortune and an enemy has almost no chance of landing a hit (crits are almost impossible).
1) I'm not a fan of area-effect save-or-lose. If they succeed, the fight is over and was boring. If they fail, then a turn was essentially lost. So, I have that bias
2) My superlatives hardly matter. (great word, btw.). I feel the same about a Wizard's Confusion as I do about the Witch's. They can be cast the same number of times per day. The Witch, however, can freely use hexes if the party does not run into the mass of enemies that the Wizard prepared for.

Again, I have trouble coming up with some common issue that a Witch is not just as adequately able to handle.

EDIT: In reading from the beginning, I think your point is not that Witches are per se worse than Wizards, it's that hexes are not as powerful as spells at any given character level. To that, I disagree so slightly as to hardly matter. It's comparing French Vanilla to Vanilla-Bean. My apologies for arguing against a stance you never took.

[Zanos]

Second Kurald and Psyren.
Third. Or fourth. Or whatever we're at now.

The witch is not bad. There OP, I'm being unhelpful.

The witch has the same number of spells per day as a wizard with a moderately worse spell list than can be augmented by good patron selection, and then a decent-to-excellent selection of spammable abilities for when they don't want to burn a spell slot but firing a crossbow doesn't really help. And that list of at will abilities contain things like "roll twice take better" for your allies and "roll twice take worse" for your enemies plus a bunch of at will Save or Dies(Slumber, Ice Prison.)

[Knight Magenta]

I think that the problem with the witch is not her strength, but her build diversity. You could build a witch that does not take slumber, or misfortune but by doing so you would be making intentionally sub-optimal choices or going for a niche build. (Mis)fortune, slumber and to a lesser extent evil eye are so much better then things like child scent or scar that it makes it hard to justify taking the other hexes. The result is that the hex selection of all level 6-10 witches look pretty similar; and if hexes are an important part of the witch's play-style, then those witches play similarly.

You could unchain the witch by making the lame hexes less lame.

The patron is pretty vestigial, I think that there is a familiar archetype that care about the witch's patron... You could solve both of your problems by making some patron specific hexes. Say 1-2 regular and 1 major hex each should be doable.

A thought on hex design: EE, slumber and misfortune are really powerful, but short range. Having every hex compete directly will lead to power creep. Consider making weaker hexes more versatile.

Rando-examples
Beast of ill-omen: debuffs enemies in an aura around your familiar. Save negates. Progression is 1/2 evil eye. Combos with Mauler familiar. Once per day Lets the familiar become incorporeal for a minute as an immediate action to protect your "spell-book".

Claws/hair: no reason for these to be secondary attacks. Get a scaling bonus to hit and damage to match 3/4 bab for the witch->eldritch knight build

Ward: Make this hex's defensive power more noticeable so people care, limit it to only one active at a time. Say +4 luck to AC and CL*2 temporary hp. Lasts for 1-3 rounds ( depending on level) and activates the first time the target is attacked.

Healing: This is currently worse then a wand. Make it heal an amount relevant enough to use in combat but single target to leave the cleric alone. Say 1d8 / level

Swamp Hag: let her spam areas of difficult terrain as well. lasts 1-3 rounds, sustainable by cackle

Scar: the new scar's effectiveness scales directly in relation to the number of good touch range hexes that target allies. Make more of those.

edit: proofreading

[Zanos]

That's a problem systematic to a lot of the pathfinder classes, though. Sure, you could make an arcanist with energy current and have the ability to blast extremely poorly based on your secondary stat, or you could take an immediate action counterspell or the ability to prepare any spell as a full round action. Same goes for core stuff like Barbarian rage powers, although the sheer volume of the core class options means there's at least more than one set of choices that's good.

Also the Scar hex is actually fairly decent, as I recall the normal range of beneficial hexes is quite small.

Although I admit a good portion of the witch hexes are way out there for most players.

[Morphic tide]

Well, my perspective on this is that Witches need less FOO in them. Like, they have a tiny number of obvious, nasty combos without spells that carry them through combat, leaving them to have their actual spells setup for non-combat.

So, step one is to look at Hexes. Some are far too powerful for an at-will, like the save-or-lose effects that never stop being relevant. Those need moved to the Witch spell list, gives Witches more incentive to use their spell slots. Would need a bit of rewording to keep Cackle effectiveness, but it would allow for Witch spells that only work for Witches.

One could generally make Hexes be in line with spells a level or two lower than the current ones, or make them badly need Cackle to be worth using, followed by making Hex-focused play cause your action economy weep. Something like useful Swift Action Hexes that require constant Cackling as a standard action to keep active.

In regards to the familiar choice, I'd like to see a bit of versatility there. Something like having Wizard's choice between a Familiar and an item they get for free and need no feats to enhance. Like, Familiar, item, Animal Companion and self-bound instead of just choosing a familiar.

For the Familiar option, I'd prefer to get an extra slot each level to cast Patron spells from, much like Cleric domains. The item option could be setting off a Hex on a trigger based on chosen item. Animal companion could possibly use some of your spells, or carry Concentration for you. Self-bound could just be "you can't lose your casting."

For the raw casting, there's not much to do beyond change the list. Add some other semi-fitting debuffs, maybe some buffs, perhaps healing of some kind, but the Witch shouldn't be beholden to casting actual spells all the time. Because they have Hexes and should have Familiar options.

Like, making the Witch's casting let you ignore Hexes entirely is the worst thing to do here. I can't stand Alchemist because they have multiple almost mutually exclusive ability sets. Don't give Witches the same thing. You can enforce the mixing of Hex and Spell by having Cackle do stuff for spells, or have Hexes that aid spells, or Hex-boosting spells.

Patrons can have some fun options. Given the themes of the Witch class, Cleric spells from quite a few domains and large chunks of the Druid list can be made part of the Witch's list this way. Wizard transmutation spells also have some use to the themes, and there's probably a psychic spell or two to consider for non-psychic Patrons.

As for things outside of spells, I think having Witch Patrons act like 5e subclasses, having levels that abilities based on the Patron come in at that are fixed. Like, a Dryad or other plant-based one might give you plant-related Druid spells and abilities that aid plants, like forceful growth or pacifying plant creatures.

Archetypes are something to think about. Very few archetypes are marked as compatible with one version of a class but not the other. The Summoner has most of these version-locked archetypes. So, when making this "Unchained Witch," try to make sure all the same class abilities are present, although altered yet cross-compatible.

As for the ones relying on the changes, try to link them to other Witch-appropriate things from other classes. Perhaps one that trades Hexes for Witch-thematic Alchemist stuff, or one that trades the Familiar-choice replacement for Wildshape. Think of things from witches in fiction, then look for existing Pathfinder stuff that fits to trade in for. Heck, Warlock-themed stuff fits too, given the Patron.

[Kurald Galain]

The result is that the hex selection of all level 6-10 witches look pretty similar; and if hexes are an important part of the witch's play-style, then those witches play similarly.

You could unchain the witch by making the lame hexes less lame.
That is precisely the point, yes.


Witches get pretty much the same number and level spells as Wizards,
And the flipside is that witches get only one spell per level less than wizards. So mid-level witches don't run out of spells either. Since most hexes (except slumber) are the equivalent of cantrips or weak first-level spells, an effectively played witch is the one who uses hexes as little as possible.

So the hexes fail to increase the witch's (1) diversity and (2) power level, which makes the witch effectively a wizard with less spells off a weaker list. It should be no surprise, then, that it's not a popular class. My usage stats confirm that in my area, almost nobody plays a witch for more than a couple sessions (whereas other arcane casters are pretty popular).

[Psyren]

I'm of the personal opinion that resource management / potentially running out of spells should be a caster consideration. The fact that many premade modules fail to do so is to the detriment of the overall experience. If multi-session adventuring days are too much bookkeeping, I'd start with Unchained's Simplified Spellcasting (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/variant-magic-rules/simplified-spellcasting) rules and consider shaving off the allotment from there.

[Knight Magenta]

That's a problem systematic to a lot of the pathfinder classes, though. Sure, you could make an arcanist with energy current and have the ability to blast extremely poorly based on your secondary stat, or you could take an immediate action counterspell or the ability to prepare any spell as a full round action. Same goes for core stuff like Barbarian rage powers, although the sheer volume of the core class options means there's at least more than one set of choices that's good.

Also the Scar hex is actually fairly decent, as I recall the normal range of beneficial hexes is quite small.

Although I admit a good portion of the witch hexes are way out there for most players.

Scar is decent, if there were more buffing hexes. Most buffing hexes limit you to 1/day/person. Right now, I think scar is only good with fortune. If you buff ward and heal, scar becomes a useful component in a buffing witch. Not sure if cackle works through scars, if it does that's pretty neat.

I hate the "make lots of bad options" design philosophy. Every option you print should be useful to someone. One of the things that I love about Path of War is that when I was making my first character I realized that I could select my maneuvers at random at each level, and my character would still be capable of doing cool things.

[Kurald Galain]

I'm of the personal opinion that resource management / potentially running out of spells should be a caster consideration. The fact that many premade modules fail to do so is to the detriment of the overall experience.
completely agree. Caster slots increase way too fast with level. For a full caster, you basically get three additional slots per levelup (two for a partial caster), in addition to these slots increasing in spell level AND scaling with caster level.


I hate the "make lots of bad options" design philosophy.
And that as well. The witch is a particularly bad case of this: although they also have their duds, the power level is much more consistent among Magus arcana or slayer talents or rage powers.

[Psyren]

I think it's less intentionally bad options and more highly situational ones. That child scent one for instance is... well it's pretty terrible, but it's also always on, so it might come into play in a creative way when you (or the GM) leasts expects it. That sort of thing.

[Gnaeus]

Thing is, they're not the equivalent of 1st-level spells. The closest analogue to Misfortune for instance is Pugwampi's Grace, a 3rd-level spell, and the hex version is spammable, Still (+1), Silent (+1), scales (+X Heighten), works on mindless creatures (+Coaxing/Threnodic/{?}) and even ignores SR/immunity (+?). Sure you have to cackle to keep it going, but that's a small price to pay for what would at minimum be 5th/6th level in spell form, and is usable on NI enemies per day.

Evil Eye is not as strong (mind-affecting) but many of the benefits above still apply, such as being still and silent, and with a longer duration you can even potentially use it socially. The fact that it is largely static is not a big deal - the enemies you're using it on may scale, but so do your allies. A static debuff can therefore still be helpful.

I agree. And don't forget that you can use it while threatened or grappled or taking damage over time. And after level 10 you can split it. Misfortune disables a lot of enemies, and it sets up the rest for a devastating save or lose from another caster. Witches are a fantastic second arcanist. I love using hexes on golems or high SR enemies and watching DMs jaw drop.

And this is why at will abilities are good. A witch can fill his spell list with situational spells. Take Undeath Ward or Spellcrash. If it's handy, it will be really handy. If it isn't, Misfortune isn't always great, but it's rarely bad.

Honestly, I wish there was a lower tier hex user (other than hexbound magus, which isn't really a good hex user).

[Psyren]

Note also that for the situational hexes, you can use Ritual Hex or Spirit Talker to pick up a floating hex each day.



Honestly, I wish there was a lower tier hex user (other than hexbound magus, which isn't really a good hex user).

The Spirit Summoner (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/summoner/archetypes/paizo---summoner-archetypes/spirit-summoner) archetype is a 6th-level caster that gets Shaman Hexes if that helps.

[Iwasforger03]

That update I was promising has arrived under the wire. The plan of action going forward is in place, and while it can still change, it provides us a structure to work from and schedule around.

Than you again for your assistance!

[Kurald Galain]

Thing is, they're not the equivalent of 1st-level spells. The closest analogue to Misfortune for instance is Pugwampi's Grace, a 3rd-level spell,
The closest equivalent is either Ill Omen (a 1st-level spell) or Touch of Chaos (a 1st-level domain ability). Pugwampi's Grace is laughably weak for a 3rd level spell, so not a good example here.

Look at overall power level here. Good first-level spells give a big penalty to a single target (e.g. Snowball, Lock Gaze). Good second-level spells either prevent a single target from acting (e.g. Hideous Laughter, Hold Person) or give a big penalty to a group of enemies (e.g. Web, Burst of Radiance). Compared to that, Slumber is the equivalent of a good second-level spell. Misfortune is the equivalent of first-level. Evil Eye is, as you say, weaker than Misf. Yes, I get that they're spammable, but to a mid-level wizard, first-level spells are also spammable.

[Gnaeus]

The closest equivalent is either Ill Omen (a 1st-level spell) or Touch of Chaos (a 1st-level domain ability). Pugwampi's Grace is laughably weak for a 3rd level spell, so not a good example here.

Look at overall power level here. Good first-level spells give a big penalty to a single target (e.g. Snowball, Lock Gaze). Good second-level spells either prevent a single target from acting (e.g. Hideous Laughter, Hold Person) or give a big penalty to a group of enemies (e.g. Web, Burst of Radiance). Compared to that, Slumber is the equivalent of a good second-level spell. Misfortune is the equivalent of first-level. Evil Eye is, as you say, weaker than Misf. Yes, I get that they're spammable, but to a mid-level wizard, first-level spells are also spammable.

No.
Pugwampis grace is a fine level 3 spell.

Good second level spells prevent a narrow class of creatures from acting, like humanoids. Slumber is more like Deep Slumber or Hold Monster than it is like hideous laughter (will save every round at +4 if a different type) or Hold person (persons).

Ill omen doesn't hold a patch on misfortune. Ill omen will give a bruiser with multiattack or several iteratives a bad round. Misfortune functionally removes them as a threat from the fight.

A few sessions ago, our 13th level party was facing an over CRed, buffed dragon. Early in, it swoops in and bite/snatches our Spirit Shaman. So he's suddenly grappled, about to be carried off, facing something with solid saves and high SR. Misfortune.
Dragon fails his pumped up DC. Wanting to capitalize on his success, I follow up with a low level will disabler, Confusion. Dragon fails his save on his reroll. Fighter attacks Dragon and wiffs. So for the rest of the fight, Dragon beats on fighter, but being misfortuned, can't actually do any real damage. Misfortune saved the SS's life and allowed us to roll an encounter that would otherwise have been very challenging with an at will resource and a underleveled spell.

Oh, and Spirit Summoner only gets a few hexes also. I'd like to play a class that used hexes as their primary mechanic. Not a fallback behind 9th level casting or 6th level casting +pet.

[Kurald Galain]

Pugwampis grace is a fine level 3 spell.
:smallbiggrin: :smallbiggrin:

Seriously now. For starters PG is strictly inferior to the second-level Blindness spell. Unsurprisingly there's a whole host of 3rd level spells that are vastly better than PG. Please find a better example to compare hexes against.

[Morphic tide]

Oh, and Spirit Summoner only gets a few hexes also. I'd like to play a class that used hexes as their primary mechanic. Not a fallback behind 9th level casting or 6th level casting +pet.

I'd prefer a class that uses Hexes and spells at the same time, with incentive to do so. Like, Hex-supporting abilities that come in the form of spells and spells that improve Hex effects, as well as features that support both at the same time. Maybe have Cackle be able to extend duration of Witch spells, if you want to roll it into the Witch rewrite.

[Gnaeus]

:smallbiggrin: :smallbiggrin:

Seriously now. For starters PG is strictly inferior to the second-level Blindness spell. Unsurprisingly there's a whole host of 3rd level spells that are vastly better than PG. Please find a better example to compare hexes against.

It is NOT strictly inferior. It is rather different. More creatures have good fort than will saves, especially among the kinds of bruisers that are optimal targets for these spells. Whether 50% Miss > reroll depends on what the target to hit number is. Blindness helps with followup attacks from your party's muggles. PG helps with followup spells from party casters. PG stacks with other common low level Miss sources, like fog, darkness, blur, or mirror image.

The biggest advantage blindness has over PG is that living things with eyes is a better category than things hit by mind affecting. But misfortune doesn't have that problem, it hits undead, golems, vermin, things with blindsight, almost anything.

[Psyren]

The closest equivalent is either Ill Omen (a 1st-level spell) or Touch of Chaos (a 1st-level domain ability). Pugwampi's Grace is laughably weak for a 3rd level spell, so not a good example here.

Ill Omen is the laughably weak one here. Mind-affecting, SR:Yes, has components, duration measured in rolls rather than rounds (Can't stop anyone with more attacks than a NPC Warrior, which is basically every martial - heck, I can get rid of it just by having someone in the party ask me random questions, or rapidly handling my animal as a druid/ranger/equivalent for example), and the target can even choose to ignore it completely by taking a round of stagger, which is handy for anyone that doesn't need a full round worth of actions that round.

No-save is nice, but that's not enough to make up for the other deficiencies. Witch already has plenty of mind-affecting/SR:Yes ways to debuff things, it's the ones that aren't that tend to be in short supply.



Oh, and Spirit Summoner only gets a few hexes also. I'd like to play a class that used hexes as their primary mechanic. Not a fallback behind 9th level casting or 6th level casting +pet.

You said you wanted lower tier + hexes and that's what I provided. Nothing else to do then but wait or homebrew.

[Gnaeus]

You said you wanted lower tier + hexes and that's what I provided. Nothing else to do then but wait or homebrew.
Fair, but I also counted out hexcrafter magus on the grounds that it gets hexes worse than a witch, and spirit summoner gets less hexes than the magus.

[kabreras]

To be honest, after playing a witch, the only problem they have is the lack of defense.

When the wizard just vanish away / blink / get in a force bubble, the witch if the enemy get close (and 30 ft is not far) is toast.

And if the DM play his minions half as good some should come to the girl in robes that make sparkles from har fingertips.

This lack of defence and the poor design of patrons is the main witch problem.

[Psyren]

Nah - between the likes of Web, Glitterdust, Stinking Cloud, Solid Fog, Sleet Storm, Black Tentacles, teleportation, summons and flight, you have all the main tools you need to keep things away from you. You can also just climb into a melee bruiser's body and use that instead.

[thecrimsondawn]

Ok I am going to give a little breakdown of my own as I have just finished doing a whole lot of research on witch for a complex build I made for my current game.

1) Witch seems to imply a female only class by stereotype. Adding in an addendum that a male witch is called something (such as perhaps a Warlock, since there powers are often dark and mysterious?) would help boost the classes popularity a bit in name.

2) If wizard is utility, and summoner is buffing, then Witch is for sure, designed to be the king caster of debuffs. This should not be deviated away from for any reason.

3) Hexes - The first thing people see with many hexes is the 24 hour limit. This pushes people away unless they do some digging and find the feat that allows you to try again. The problem is this feat is almost mandatory for any hex using witch. First things first, hexes are by far, not weak by any means. In fact, they have a 2 turn death effect at level 1 if you look closely enough for it. As much as I enjoy the hex system, I feel it is flawed too.
The good ) No limit on use per day, only limited on use per target, or in some rare cases, a time frame based on level.
The bad ) If the target passes their save, the hex cant be used on them again. If you have the feat for it, you get 1 additional try, and thats it. Also, many hexes are good for RP, but are practically useless outside of that (or at least very situational)
If you are doing an unchained witch, you cant rewrite the whole hex system. What you can do is offer the unchained witch a system that costs a resource or an action and a save to target a foe with a hex again, however, this would require much thought and balance testing to even be close to balanced.

4) Unchained - Unchained is both about keeping things simple for the players, as well as giving more power to the players to pick and choose exactly what type of (insert class here) they want to play. Unchained monk for example, breaks down the many class features into options. allowing for several monks in a party to be potentially completely different from one another. Changing the hex system to fit this design may work, but it would take a lot of work and thought to keep things fair.

5) Patron - I have mixed feelings about this one. I love the dark and mysterious forces aspect, and the options, but many of the options are very lack luster, as well as repetitive. This needs to be a focus of change, but I am not really sure what. Perhaps if each patron was more like a sorc bloodline, giving various bonuses and/or hexes, or improving various spells or hexes instead of just giving you one more spell to cast, that would be good.

6) familiar - Very few good builds are around that use a Familiar. There is a reason for this. If your familiar dies, one way or another, you suffer a penalty, sometimes a harsh one at that, and you need to spend time to find, make, or otherwise acquire a new one. communing with your familiar feels silly to me since you are getting your powers from a patron, your familiar should/could be a force related to said patron, and perhaps the patron itself would effect your Familiar's abilities. One way or another, having a pet is fun for RP, but a liability in combat on so many levels.

7) Final Thoughts - Every class has a cool thing, or a series of cool things that set them apart from everyone else. Witch feels.....sort of empty in that regard, so an unchained rework of witch is a good idea, I am for it. I will say this tho, if you enter into making this with the thoughts that Witch sucks, or is a tier 3 or lower class, you will end up with a vastly over powered result. Levels 1-9 are rather hard for a witch, but as soon as you hit 10, they get a power boost that is out of this world. anyone that can spam death effects all day long, debuff with harsh penalties, and use hexes that imitate powerful spells other classes get is a real danger. My final thoughts? Early game witch needs a buff, while late game witch needs a re-balance.

[Kurald Galain]

2) If wizard is utility, and summoner is buffing,

Wait, what? No, they're not. Neither of them.

[Florian]

Ok I am going to give a little breakdown of my own as I have just finished doing a whole lot of research on witch for a complex build I made for my current game.

1) Witch seems to imply a female only class by stereotype. Adding in an addendum that a male witch is called something (such as perhaps a Warlock, since there powers are often dark and mysterious?) would help boost the classes popularity a bit in name.

2) If wizard is utility, and summoner is buffing, then Witch is for sure, designed to be the king caster of debuffs. This should not be deviated away from for any reason.

1 - That´s cultural bias and also language dependent. As an example, we´re always had this issue with the german translation, as "sorcerer" and "witch" are the male and female names of the same thing in our language, with "sorcercer" being synonymous with "warlock". Most other class names don´t even have an equivalent, so the "summoner" is "pact wizard" for us ;)

2 - Agreed with Wizards as Blasters/Utility, while Clerics are Buffing/Combat casters and Witches Debuff/Controll. But how do summoners fit in?

[Kurald Galain]

2 - Agreed with Wizards as Blasters/Utility, while Clerics are Buffing/Combat casters and Witches Debuff/Controll. But how do summoners fit in?

This distinction as you see it just isn't there. Any blasting spells the wizard has, the witch can also take. Conversely, any debuff/control spells the witch has, the wizard can duplicate. Both witches and wizards are very good at buffing, arguably better than the cleric. And I'm not sure what "combat caster" is supposed to mean, other than the feat that anyone can take.

You might argue that that's how it should be, but then you have to make a lot of changes to the wizard and cleric to make that happen. Until then, wizard and witch are basically tied in both blasting and debuffing. If you want a class intentionally designed for debuffing, check the mesmerist instead.

[Florian]

I´m talking about the basic class framework and accompanying spell list as presented, before any other material comes into it.

Edit: That´s basically the GOD Wizard, Reach Cleric, Debuff Witch.

[Malroth]

How about a Greater Hex that mimics Lesser planar Ally that scales up to normal planar ally at 15 with the stipulation that the called creature works for the benefit of the witch's Patron and never agrees to serve for free?

[Florian]

How about a Greater Hex that mimics Lesser planar Ally that scales up to normal planar ally at 15 with the stipulation that the called creature works for the benefit of the witch's Patron and never agrees to serve for free?

You already have the Dimension patron and Dimensional Occultist archetype to get those spells. Keep in mind that you also would need a slew of accompanying spells and feats to make the Witch good at calling. (Dipping Blackfire Adept and countering the spellcasting loss with Prestigious Spellcaster works fine here)

[Kurald Galain]

Edit: That´s basically the GOD Wizard, Reach Cleric, Debuff Witch.

Then maybe you should consider that the GOD Wizard is written to be the best controller and debuffer in the game, and that it considers blasting a waste of time :smallamused:

So since control/debuff is taken, maybe the witch should focus on buffing instead. Looking at numerous hexes and spells on the witch list, the class was clearly written with buffing in mind.

[Florian]

Then maybe you should consider that the GOD Wizard is written to be the best controller and debuffer in the game, and that it considers blasting a waste of time :smallamused:

So since control/debuff is taken, maybe the witch should focus on buffing instead. Looking at numerous hexes and spells on the witch list, the class was clearly written with buffing in mind.

I´m not against blasting with a Wizard. Dead enemies don´t deal damage.

Ok, please give examples. Fortune and Cackle come to mind as a good and stable option, but what spells?

[Psyren]

Ok I am going to give a little breakdown of my own as I have just finished doing a whole lot of research on witch for a complex build I made for my current game.

1) Witch seems to imply a female only class by stereotype. Adding in an addendum that a male witch is called something (such as perhaps a Warlock, since there powers are often dark and mysterious?) would help boost the classes popularity a bit in name.

A male witch is a witch, there's no reason to call it anything else. People with hangups about that are just being silly.



2) If wizard is utility, and summoner is buffing, then Witch is for sure, designed to be the king caster of debuffs. This should not be deviated away from for any reason.

I'm not sure where any of these classifications are coming from :smallconfused: All three of these classes can do all three of these things.

[Morphic tide]

1) Witch seems to imply a female only class by stereotype. Adding in an addendum that a male witch is called something (such as perhaps a Warlock, since there powers are often dark and mysterious?) would help boost the classes popularity a bit in name.

No need, as a lot of things like that actually don't translate well. And how often does the name of something make you consider not using it at all?


2) If wizard is utility, and summoner is buffing, then Witch is for sure, designed to be the king caster of debuffs. This should not be deviated away from for any reason.

Wrong, wrong, wrong. I've dug into the Witch spell list and found it to support multiclass gishing better than debuffs, because it has a pile of available gish stuff at low levels(granted, this is going by the copy on the SRD, so it includes the splatbook overload. But for debuffs at first level, they are far outnumbered by the Gish support of Cure Light Wounds and the ability to make a +1 dagger whenever you need to, on top of adding enhancement bonuses to weapons). Deviating from the apparent role is a good thing, because having classes in D&D, let alone casters, pigeon-holed into one playstyle is utterly toxic. Seriously, there are archetypes devoted to violating the typical role of a class.


3) Hexes - The first thing people see with many hexes is the 24 hour limit. This pushes people away unless they do some digging and find the feat that allows you to try again. The problem is this feat is almost mandatory for any hex using witch. First things first, hexes are by far, not weak by any means. In fact, they have a 2 turn death effect at level 1 if you look closely enough for it. As much as I enjoy the hex system, I feel it is flawed too.
The good ) No limit on use per day, only limited on use per target, or in some rare cases, a time frame based on level.
The bad ) If the target passes their save, the hex cant be used on them again. If you have the feat for it, you get 1 additional try, and thats it. Also, many hexes are good for RP, but are practically useless outside of that (or at least very situational)
If you are doing an unchained witch, you cant rewrite the whole hex system. What you can do is offer the unchained witch a system that costs a resource or an action and a save to target a foe with a hex again, however, this would require much thought and balance testing to even be close to balanced.

Actually, you can rewrite most of the system. Look at how Unchained Summoner screwed with the way Eidolons work, or how Unchained Monk . Having Hexes have additional specifications isn't that hard, and changing what a feature does matters a lot less than changing the name of a feature or removing it.


4) Unchained - Unchained is both about keeping things simple for the players, as well as giving more power to the players to pick and choose exactly what type of (insert class here) they want to play. Unchained monk for example, breaks down the many class features into options. allowing for several monks in a party to be potentially completely different from one another. Changing the hex system to fit this design may work, but it would take a lot of work and thought to keep things fair.

Remember, Unchained classes usually have compatibility with most of the archetypes of the original class. So the changes can't remove features often used for archetypes. This means that the changes have to leave most of your stuff intact, but you can work around it by looking at often altered things. You can also do stuff like certain high-impact Sorcerer bloodlines with Patrons that are actually categorized as Archetypes which do far more than a Patron normally does. Or just make Patrons in general into a pseudo-archetype system that doesn't invalidate other archetypes altering an ability already altered by the Patron.


5) Patron - I have mixed feelings about this one. I love the dark and mysterious forces aspect, and the options, but many of the options are very lack luster, as well as repetitive. This needs to be a focus of change, but I am not really sure what. Perhaps if each patron was more like a sorc bloodline, giving various bonuses and/or hexes, or improving various spells or hexes instead of just giving you one more spell to cast, that would be good.

Well, you can take ideas from two classes with similar options: Cleric and Summoner. Domains and Eidolons. In both cases, they can add class skills, which can massively alter how a class plays. They also offer powers that the class normally wouldn't have. The Patron grants the Familiar, so each Patron could have it's own list of available Familiar options or a bonus given to the Familiar to support it's use. Or both. In addition to automatic spells and hexes "known" and class skills granted to the character. You could even have "sub-patrons," representing more specific things, like having a general Fiend Patron, then having a sub-Patron for each category of Fiend you feel like using for a Patron.


6) familiar - Very few good builds are around that use a Familiar. There is a reason for this. If your familiar dies, one way or another, you suffer a penalty, sometimes a harsh one at that, and you need to spend time to find, make, or otherwise acquire a new one. communing with your familiar feels silly to me since you are getting your powers from a patron, your familiar should/could be a force related to said patron, and perhaps the patron itself would effect your Familiar's abilities. One way or another, having a pet is fun for RP, but a liability in combat on so many levels.

Item Familiar option, possibly as an archetype or Patron-linked option. Sure, it has different problems, but it's harder for the DM to get away with sniping an item you've dumped a third of your money into than it is for them to get away with sniping a normal familiar. Because breaking a major item your character relies on to function properly is typically seen as a **** move. Much like having a Paladin fall for killing a framed guy that the party got zero evidence of them being framed.


7) Final Thoughts - Every class has a cool thing, or a series of cool things that set them apart from everyone else. Witch feels.....sort of empty in that regard, so an unchained rework of witch is a good idea, I am for it. I will say this tho, if you enter into making this with the thoughts that Witch sucks, or is a tier 3 or lower class, you will end up with a vastly over powered result. Levels 1-9 are rather hard for a witch, but as soon as you hit 10, they get a power boost that is out of this world. anyone that can spam death effects all day long, debuff with harsh penalties, and use hexes that imitate powerful spells other classes get is a real danger. My final thoughts? Early game witch needs a buff, while late game witch needs a re-balance.

Agreed with that. Lower-level need to be stronger, while higher-level needs to be weaker. Possibly by changing how Greater Hexes work to make them less overwhelming. Maybe have them be uses per day limited in some way, possibly by having them gated behind spell slot spending.