Player Advice - SKT @ Triboar, party is stuck, and DM seems to lack hooks

[Trevethan Norn]

Hello,

First post on these boards, so please move it to a more appropriate area if needed:

I am new to DnD, though not to rpgs (playing and occasionally freelancing with catalyst for Shadowrun since 2e), and my AL party is currently running through Storm King's Thunder. So far, our party has struggled through the prologue and chapter one with many issues, including more than a few fatalities (the caverns with the goblins and ogres killed our first cleric and very nearly TPK'd). We are now in the town of Triboar, and have just managed to stave off an attack on the local inn. Our party is a mix of pickups from the FLGS, with a mix of experienced and new roleplayers, but besides myself, we lack IC or OC party leadership. Many of the party failures have come from player errors, but only a few have any sort of reason to chase after extremely dangerous encounters without any real legwork or research. The ones who are that impulsive are also usually horribly ineffective, as well.

Unfortunately, we have no real reason to be in this town, having been dropped off by the cloud giant after Nightstone was saved. All he told us was that he had scryed that a significant event was to take place here. We assume that the orcs attacking was the significant event, though I did discover (thanks to my familiar flying around) that 2 fire giants excavated some fields in the town. The problem here is twofold:

1. We have been watching the fire giants for some time, and they started to pull some sort of heavy object behind them. My player/gm mind KNOWS we are supposed to go interact with either the Macguffin, or the giants. Given our poor results against the previous conflicts, however, fighting two giants seems to be lowest on my list of tasks.

2. My character is a wizard, who tends to be something of an archivist (guild membership in the cartographers guild etc etc), has very little in the way of an inclination to risk his safety via decapitation or being squashed by boulders. One of the giants already somehow managed to splat my falcon flying high above the two, so hostile intentions are likely. While my character is very curious about the presence of the giants, I don't know that the party is likely to run head first into fighting or trying to converse with two beings who are astronomically more powerful than the stuff that has already killed us. I contrived the rp-reason that he needs to report significant dangers to the cartographers guild for mapping in order to help the gm wrangle the party in order to get the team over to Nightstone in the first place.

I usually eschew reaching out for help, and obviously I have googled things about the module just because we have not been given any sort of lead-in to go for any sort of plot movement (the party has been in progress for nearly 9-10 weeks, playing 1 time per week to get to this point). I hate meta-gaming, and we have used insight, investigation, history, etc checks all over the place to give us some sort of a hook, but we are still bereft of one. Does anyone have experience helping DM's and particularly pants-on-head special groups of players get somewhere in the story?

I may be having this difficulty coming from Shadowrun due to the inherent vitality of legwork and research being so core to how Shadowrun plays. Is dnd just more prone to the completionist dungeon A, rest, Dungeon B, rest, shop cycle without a coherent in-person set of reasons for parties to go up against such huge challenges?

Party Makeup:

- Wizard lvl 4(me, I specced for illusion, but so far it has had more limited effects than I figured it would based on reading the spell attributes)
- Cleric, Vengeance lvl 4 (Doesn't have bless for certain, has a fascination with finding animal companions. Only rarely uses any sort of healing, and seems incompetent at much else)
- Fighter, Archer (Level 1 add-in because our FLGS has been adding people to our tier 1 table. We have had issues maintaining regulars as the other tables are more consistent)
- Barbarian, Goliath level 3 (Only truly effective melee character we have had thus far)
- Bard level 3 (She is a celestial of some sort, and is actually really awesome. Good source of healing).
- Rogue lvl 1 (he died in the orc fighting, even after spending the whole session trying to loot the town watch while staying away from the fighting. He will probably be re-rolled for next session as a level 2 something.)
- Possibly another lvl 3 Wizard (shows up off and on)

[MasterMercury]

I've never played Shadowrun, so I don't really know how much work is involved.
However, you are right. D&D doesn't really need reasons, legwork, or roleplay reasons in order to kill things.
You can still have them, and that definitely makes the game better, but they are not required.

If the problem is leadership, then be a leader IC and OOC.
IC, gather your party in a tavern. Give them a speech, about how many of their friends have died. These deaths could have been avoided. If they can't work as a team, then they will fail, bla bla bla.
OOC, just ask them to play the game and be helpful. Ask the cleric to heal, the rogue to sneak.
You're cleric can definitely prepare bless. Ask him to try it.

This party can probably take 2 fire giants if you play it smart. If you can separate them somehow, it would be most helpful.
Have the rogue taunt a giant, or steal something, and then run like hell. Talk to the DM, and maybe only one giant goes after him. A rogue with cunning action can outrun a giant, or at least hide.

In all, D&D is a game where you go to a place, and work together to kill things. Get them on board with the teamwork, and everything will be fine.

As for the DM, he gave you a hook. There are two fire giants and a mcguffin in the woods. Go kill them. Good luck.

[Herobizkit]

Well, you can pull stakes, go back home, report that The Giants have a 'thing'. When asked, "What is it?" and you have no answer, go back and see what it is.

Or you can Be a Hero™ and go see what it is right now. :)

There is some amount of "buy-in" that D&D requires from players. If you're playing Storm King's Thunder, the assumption is that you're going to learn about and probably fight Giants. If fighting Giants isn't what your character wants to do, that's also cool, but if you're not also looking for help or doing whatever a magical cartographer would do to find out what that Thing might be, you haven't bought in. Go look. You might die, but good news - character generation is a lot faster in D&D than Shadowrun. ^_^

[nanoboy]

I'm currently running SKT, and my players went through Triboar pretty much unscathed (and I kept them at lower level than recommended.) Here's the thing: yes, giants will come, but without spoilers, so long as your DM runs it as written, the giants have an agenda that may hinder them in their ability to kill you. Also, the townsfolk are not interested in having their town razed to the ground, so you will be getting help.

You're adventurers! Be adventurous! (But play it smart.)

[Sigreid]

How can any scholarly wizard sleep at night without knowing what the hell they are up to?

[Trevethan Norn]

Well, you can pull stakes, go back home, report that The Giants have a 'thing'. When asked, "What is it?" and you have no answer, go back and see what it is.

Or you can Be a Hero™ and go see what it is right now. :)

There is some amount of "buy-in" that D&D requires from players. If you're playing Storm King's Thunder, the assumption is that you're going to learn about and probably fight Giants. If fighting Giants isn't what your character wants to do, that's also cool, but if you're not also looking for help or doing whatever a magical cartographer would do to find out what that Thing might be, you haven't bought in. Go look. You might die, but good news - character generation is a lot faster in D&D than Shadowrun. ^_^

Right, that would be my logical assumption, however previous attempts to use all of the myriad investigation, arcana, insight, history, etc. skills have been met with fairly blank, "you find nothing. You don't recall anything interesting about this area geographically other than it being a minor trade hub. The city watch knows nothing". I tried to find out rumors on the last 2 towns, and only 1 time in 9 weeks has there actually been stuff to know besides Zephyros and his interactions.

As far as not knowing what the thing is, my character would mostly just go back and report that, "Fire giants have been seen attacking towns, after the partial sack of Nightstone, please advise our friendly caravans". He likes to adventure and see new and unique things, but also has a very healthy regard for his life (as most rational types should, even those who choose to go on adventures). This regard for his own hide has only grown since almost every encounter has involved being sniped by bows, javelins, and other ranged projectiles with surprise rounds. I just learned invisibility, because holy crap I hate getting shot and almost down to 1 hp every time before anything happens.

I think I am just having trouble adjusting to the setting coming from a very Black Trenchcoat version of Shadowrun. The gm is really very good for new players, as he is very welcoming. He just doesn't seem to have even done a lot of prep except for: fight this, fight that. There is little to no development and information available from npcs which could even give basic motivations for anyone other than the one fighter (played by a new player who might not know to take the lead IC this time).


I think the other replies were pretty helpful in that I expected there to be a lot more behind the scenes/ motivation-related with the quests. I have been trying rather hard to throw a large number of opportunities for the dm to drop other pieces, but he seems to want to default towards hack n slash with no rhyme, nor reason. This is something of a predicament for an illusion-focused mage. I have had to start loading up on combat spells in order to have any output in the game, which is very disappointing, as I see illusions as potentially very effective, and love playing support characters.

Almost any rpg requires some suspension of disbelief, but I find it hard to believe that the development of characters is seemingly such an afterthought. I get loving the murderhobo stuff, but DnD on the surface seems to have a plethora of rich storytelling. I was just hoping it wasn't so linear coming from a Black trenchcoat experience.

I think I am going to have to take that tavern leadership page and just bluff the party into going after the Macguffin as suggested, but it rubs me a bit raw that there didn't seem to be much thought on the dm's part into addressing any of the parties motivations.

[nanoboy]

Right now, you guys are in the discovery stage, and if things are at all slowing down, then the DM should through the next event your way. (I'm surprised he hasn't already done so.) Stuff will happen soon, and you'll pick up some more clues and minor quests for fun and profit.

[Arial Black]

I've run SKT. I'm concerned about your DM.

'Not being bothered' with investigation is a problem. It could indicate that he doesn't want to gve the party any possible advantage.

Giants have a limited number of rocks to throw. Why would they waste them on killing random birds who have done nothing to them? It's almost as if the giant somehow knew that this falcon was someone's familiar, and that someone might be an enemy. It reminds me of a cartoon (it might be OotS) where the wizard's raven familiar was flying in a flock of a thousand other ravens, but as soon as the familiar raven appeared then it got hit by twenty arrows because the town guards somehow knew that this raven was a familiar!

Next, SKT doesn't use XPs, it uses milestones. The party should be 5th level for this encounter. Perhaps an experienced and competent group of lower level PCs have a chance, if the DM isn't trying to kill them, but that doesn't sound like your group or your DM.

Illusions are famously variable in how effective they are, simply because different DMs view illusions in various ways. Killer DMs feel free to basically ignore them. True story: I played the 2nd ed boxed set, Dragon Mountain with a guy who was evolving into a killer DM. Because invisibility was in the Illusion school, he had his NPCs simply disbelieve it! He ruled that we couldn't see through an invisible wall on the grounds that we only thought it was invisible (the spell clearly states that it makes objects perfectly transparent). In one encounter we all had improved invisibility and attacked a hobgoblin barracks, setting a few fires along the way. He ruled that the hobgoblins could see us. But we're invisible! Ah, but the hobbos know that the fires must have been set by someone, they couldn't see anyone, therefore there must be some invisible people around, therefore they disbelieved the illusion of our invisibility and could see us clearly!

I don't think your DM will let your illusions bother his NPCs in the slightest, and he'll come up with some bull 'explanation' on the fly.

If you fight these giants, you're all toast.

Good luck! :smallsmile:

[Motorskills]

I am DMing SKT, with a large and above-level party.


SKT is not perfect in this regard. But your DM should not be struggling. Nonetheless I firmly recommend Guide to Triboar and the Guide to SKT, available from DMsGuild for just a few bucks, different authors. These help focus on the strengths and weaknesses of SKT.

I used the "heroes of Triboar" missions in SKT as linear objectives for the party, I relocated a couple mission so it would fit the line. (Darz = Sundabar, Urgala's father-son locations are reversed).



My party has left Triboar and is currently in Yartar. They are heading towards Citadel Felbar for one main, and one sub-mission. They are following the minor mission from Ghelryn Foehammer, and the major mission which is to ask the King and the Queen wtf is going on, since they would surely know.

I will then have the party do Chapter 8 before Chapter 3. (This is not for the faint-hearted DM!).


In Yartar, my party has just completed Kraken's Gamble* in Yartar. I liked it a lot, but pretty hardcore, be warned!

*also DMsGuild



Now, people familiar with SKT will realise that
a) I have chopped SKT around pretty hard
b) the new layout works really well
c) none of it is necessary, SKT is fine as it is.


Your DM is welcome to drop me a PM if he would like some pointers.

[nanoboy]

Your DM is welcome to drop me a PM if he would like some pointers.

Same here. This part of the campaign is pretty scripted and easy to DM. I'm further along, as my players are about to attack a giant stronghold. Seriously, the DM shouldn't be struggling at this point, and the encounter that the book includes is not that hard, so long as you use half-way decent tactics.

[Herobizkit]

Right, that would be my logical assumption, however previous attempts to use all of the myriad investigation, arcana, insight, history, etc. skills have been met with fairly blank, "you find nothing. You don't recall anything interesting about this area geographically other than it being a minor trade hub. The city watch knows nothing". I tried to find out rumors on the last 2 towns, and only 1 time in 9 weeks has there actually been stuff to know besides Zephyros and his interactions.

[... le snip ...]

I think I am just having trouble adjusting to the setting coming from a very Black Trenchcoat version of Shadowrun. The gm is really very good for new players, as he is very welcoming. He just doesn't seem to have even done a lot of prep except for: fight this, fight that. There is little to no development and information available from npcs which could even give basic motivations for anyone other than the one fighter (played by a new player who might not know to take the lead IC this time).It is difficult to say for sure where we only have your observations of the game, but it could very well be that the DM is focused on running the adventures "as is" and only offering future plot hooks as you "earn" them (by following what the adventure expects you to do - go fight them giants).

Put differently, D&D is far more "pink Mohawk" as a base assumption. It's the quintessential game of "kill things and take their stuff". Running for Adventure League means that the DM is encouraged to follow the books/adventures to the letter to accommodate the lowest common denominator of player base... who generally want to kill things and take their stuff, as combat (for most) is the easiest part of the game to learn.

Being a story-focused player in a room full of meatheads/newbs can be infuriating. But you also have the advantage of showing them different ways to play, even if they don't grok it immediately.

[nanoboy]

There is the apocryphal but true story of the party of adventurers that split up. One group follows the clues plainly left by the DM and battles undead in a crypt. The other group goes to the tavern, because they want to find more clues, despite there being no indication that there could be clues at the tavern. That group ends up drinking a little and finding nothing. When they ask the DM why they didn't get any action like the group that went to the crypt, the DM answers that it was because the crypt was where the action was. If you are playing adventurers (as D&D is designed for you to do) then you must go to the adventure. If you want to do something else, then you might be playing the wrong game. There are games out there for players who want romance, intrigue, and the like, but while you can find those things in a D&D game, the system does not support that kind of thing, as it supports swashbuckling, dungeon delving, and action-adventure.

[Malifice]

There's always good old faithful. The Mexican stand-off.

Sit around and do nothing. Eventually the DM will break and the hook will come your way.

[Trevethan Norn]

There's always good old faithful. The Mexican stand-off.

Sit around and do nothing. Eventually the DM will break and the hook will come your way.

Welp, update time. I tried to give a rousing speech to the inhabitants of the town, the town watch, and was met with a resounding blank stare. We then tried to track the giants but somehow lost their trail despite them having dragged the thing, even using survival, tracking roles, using my flying owl familiar to try and spot tracks etc. Those giants are apparently incredibly good at hiding their footprints in open terrain...

The party is now on its way north because we had no real direction. We do now have a bounty quest for the Weevil (wanted poster found in a tavern some leagues north of Triboar). We were heading to Mirabar, but found the Weevil in a heavily fortified town before reaching our destination. Our bard bargained for shelter in the inn and had the whole town entertained, but the goliath felt things were too boring and so followed the Weevil up to the second story. After losing sight of the dwarf, he promptly decided to play wack-a-mole by kicking in a door and uncovering a half-dressed she-dwarf. He has now been arrested by the town soldiers (who were loving the show). I believe our party is under the old Chinese curse: "May you live in interesting times".

At least it was funny to watch the player make so many interesting decisions :P.

[bokodasu]

That's really weird. Not to spoiler too much, but you weren't given NPCs to play in Triboar? Or the DM didn't introduce you to some special NPCs, specifically mentioning that if they survive you get quests? Because that's kind of an essential part of that chapter and if you don't do that, then yeah, the characters don't have anything to do/anywhere to go next.

Sounds like someone didn't read the whole chapter. Or any of the bits that explain how to run it. On the plus side, SKT can be really sandboxy (if you have a DM who doesn't answer everything with a blank stare), so just about anywhere you go there should be something that will lead you somewhere.

edit: Sorry, the more I think about this the more annoyed I get. SKT is completely location based - going to places triggers things happening. If you fight the giants, one thing happens and if you don't, something else does. EITHER WAY THINGS HAPPEN. There are so many hooks you specifically have to hold some back from players - I know of groups who've gotten to level 15 or 16 because they are insisting on doing every side-quest. It's super easy to run as-is or mashup to your taste - there are things that link to other books, and things that say hey, if you want, this is a nice place to drop in a quest for your players, there's no time pressure and you can do things in any order. It is as if the writers sat down and said, "how can we make it impossible to get stuck and have no reason to continue?" and then wrote that thing. (Except for one really bad place near the end. Which I guess becomes the end if you trigger that.) I am irritated on your behalf.

[Trevethan Norn]

That's really weird. Not to spoiler too much, but you weren't given NPCs to play in Triboar? Or the DM didn't introduce you to some special NPCs, specifically mentioning that if they survive you get quests? Because that's kind of an essential part of that chapter and if you don't do that, then yeah, the characters don't have anything to do/anywhere to go next.

Sounds like someone didn't read the whole chapter. Or any of the bits that explain how to run it. On the plus side, SKT can be really sandboxy (if you have a DM who doesn't answer everything with a blank stare), so just about anywhere you go there should be something that will lead you somewhere.

edit: Sorry, the more I think about this the more annoyed I get. SKT is completely location based - going to places triggers things happening. If you fight the giants, one thing happens and if you don't, something else does. EITHER WAY THINGS HAPPEN. There are so many hooks you specifically have to hold some back from players - I know of groups who've gotten to level 15 or 16 because they are insisting on doing every side-quest. It's super easy to run as-is or mashup to your taste - there are things that link to other books, and things that say hey, if you want, this is a nice place to drop in a quest for your players, there's no time pressure and you can do things in any order. It is as if the writers sat down and said, "how can we make it impossible to get stuck and have no reason to continue?" and then wrote that thing. (Except for one really bad place near the end. Which I guess becomes the end if you trigger that.) I am irritated on your behalf.


Lol, nothing of the sort. I tried rallying the guard to support us in going after the giants in revenge for the dead. I tried rallying the townsfolk who had their town pillaged. I asked if any of them had any way to support us, with items or donations etc. Nada.