New dm. Requires assitance [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

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LightSeeker

2017-01-30, 06:16 PM

Ive got this one character in my group thats stupidly overpowered. I need help to deal with him. He is a 15th level sorcerer and a power gamer. The one thing im really having issue with is his armor. He has adamatine full plate that protects him from ALL magic cast at him. Literally he can walk into an ancient great wyrms breath attack and just shrug it off. The campaign takes place in a dying world and magic is starting to slowly fade. Thing is his armor is making it so he doesnt so much play as just show up to the session. He practically insults me the entire time and dares me to throw stuff at him. I need assistance in taking him down a peg without slaughtering the rest of the group. Is there some d&d precedent for this?

Kelb_Panthera

2017-01-30, 06:19 PM

Ive got this one character in my group thats stupidly overpowered. I need help to deal with him.

Overpowered how, exactly?

OldTrees1

2017-01-30, 06:20 PM

What are the characters in the group including classes and how the player actually plays them? If you tell us there is a Wizard we might interpret that differently than there is a Wizard usually casts fireball.
What kind of campaign are you running?
In what way is this overpowered character being overwhelming?

Stryyke

2017-01-30, 06:20 PM

A little clarification if you don't mind. When you say OP, are you talking AC/BAB, Skills, feats, etc?

The general answer to any op player is to find something they are weak with, and make the next encounter or two about that. If the player is OP in melee damage, have flying creatures. If their AC is high because of armor, use touch attacks against them; or even better ranged touch attacks. There are very few builds that have no weaknesses. Just find this character's weakness and exploit it.

LightSeeker

2017-01-30, 06:24 PM

Woah! You guys showed up out of no where. Sorry was making some corrections.

John Longarrow

2017-01-30, 06:26 PM

Two things not touched on by others:
1) Is he casting in full plate? If so, what is he doing to overcome arcane spell failure?
2) How is he immune to magic?

OldTrees1

2017-01-30, 06:29 PM

He is a 15th level sorcerer and a power gamer. The one thing im really having issue with is his armor. He has adamatine full plate that protects him from ALL magic cast at him. Literally he can walk into an ancient great wyrms breath attack and just shrug it off.

Well, let's separate the in game issues from the out of game issues:
1) Could you detail what lets this adamatine full plate protect him from magic? Adamantine does not normally help against targeting spells(even touch spells) nor against saving throws(like from dragon breath of various colors).

2) Let's make sure to avoid vague hyperbole (if there was any) when discussing out of character issues. Is the player literally insulting you? Is it the character or the player that is challenging the DM in a "give me your best shot" kind of manner?

LightSeeker

2017-01-30, 06:29 PM

Stryyke

2017-01-30, 06:29 PM

In one game I'm playing in, we have a melee weapon that is so sharp it hits as a touch attack, rather than a standard attack. The weapon has the additional feature of sundering anything it cuts through. I would provide some kind of warning before breaking his favorite toy. Maybe he encounters a hobgoblin slicing pieces of metal with a dagger, then when your op player sees that, he knows he is vulnerable to certain weapons from then on.

LightSeeker

2017-01-30, 06:31 PM

He got it from another dm in a previous campaign. And the way the armor is crafted he has no spell failure chance. It was personally made by a dm for him. Homebrew.

LightSeeker

2017-01-30, 06:32 PM

OldTrees1

2017-01-30, 06:33 PM

He got it from another dm in a previous campaign. And the way the armor is crafted he has no spell failure chance. It was personally made by a dm for him. Homebrew.

Why is the armor in your campaign? Are you sharing worlds and just swapping out campaigns?

Since you recognize that the armor is a problem, and you are readily willing to admit you should not have allowed it into your game. Just talk to the player out of character and state that you recognize your mistake allowing that armor in the game and that it is going to be removed. Discuss a suitable & balanced replacement for the duration of the campaign.

John Longarrow

2017-01-30, 06:33 PM

If it is magic that lets him do that, let him encounter an antimagic field or a dead magic zone.

Player acting like that in my game would first be talked to out of character. If they continue acting up I normally boot them.

As to "Can cast in armor", "Doesn't need to track spells", and "Armor immune to magic", there are still dozens of things he'd have to worry about. Top of the list would be green slime. Sure, he's in his armor but if its not air tight he's in for a world of hurt.

Kelb_Panthera

2017-01-30, 06:35 PM

LightSeeker

2017-01-30, 06:36 PM

Well, let's separate the in game issues from the out of game issues:
1) Could you detail what lets this adamatine full plate protect him from magic? Adamantine does not normally help against targeting spells(even touch spells) nor against saving throws(like from dragon breath of various colors).

2) Let's make sure to avoid vague hyperbole (if there was any) when discussing out of character issues. Is the player literally insulting you? Is it the character or the player that is challenging the DM in a "give me your best shot" kind of manner?

1) The armor was hombrewed specifically for him he has no spelk failure chance and all the previous dm said to him was "all magic cast at you, including buffs, have no effect whatsoever."

2) Both in game and out of it he insults me. In game its the "hit me with your best shot." type stuff.

John Longarrow

2017-01-30, 06:36 PM

That armor doesn't sound kosher. I hate to be the one to go here but is it possible he's cheating?

I know of a number of things that can soak magic but most of them have sharp limits and I don't remember such an armor at all. Even the things I am aware of can't just absorb -all- incoming magic passively.

OP noted it was a "Homebrew" item created for the character by another DM. At least that's what's being reported.

Note: That would mean its still not good against conjurations.

MisterKaws

2017-01-30, 06:37 PM

Full Plate has a 35% spell failure chance, so this caster would be failing a lot of spells unless they're either a Geomancer, or spam Still Spell (which is not efficient at all).

I also don't recall any armors that give complete immunity to magic, especially ones that would also give immunity to supernatural effects (like a dragon's breath), so I think that either it's an artifact given by you (in which case you started the problem yourself), or the player is messing up with the rules in order to make it possible to move in an armor that works like an Antimagic Field, while ignoring both this supposed AMF's magic suppression and the armor's spell failure chance (the most probable alternative).

LightSeeker

2017-01-30, 06:39 PM

Why is the armor in your campaign? Are you sharing worlds and just swapping out campaigns?

Since you recognize that the armor is a problem, and you are readily willing to admit you should not have allowed it into your game. Just talk to the player out of character and state that you recognize your mistake allowing that armor in the game and that it is going to be removed. Discuss a suitable & balanced replacement for the duration of the campaign.

Our group is typically the "Dm made a choice it stays, but if he changes his mind we have no respect for him." kind. If I could have settled it outside of the game I would have.

OldTrees1

2017-01-30, 06:40 PM

1) The armor was hombrewed specifically for him he has no spelk failure chance and all the previous dm said to him was "all magic cast at you, including buffs, have no effect whatsoever."

2) Both in game and out of it he insults me. In game its the "hit me with your best shot." type stuff.

1) Ah, since you currently & correctly view the armor as inappropriate for your campaign, have the armor be replaced for the duration of your campaign.

2) Talk to the player out of character as to your dislike of the insulting and that participation in the game is contingent on respecting the other players(including the DM).

Our group is typically the "Dm made a choice it stays, but if he changes his mind we have no respect for him." kind. If I could have settled it outside of the game I would have.

Perhaps detail why your group thinks this way?

LightSeeker

2017-01-30, 06:41 PM

John Longarrow

2017-01-30, 06:41 PM

Our group is typically the "Dm made a choice it stays, but if he changes his mind we have no respect for him." kind. If I could have settled it outside of the game I would have.

If you've tried OoC and for your group that won't work, you can always use PaO to turn a fly over his head into a whale. 1d6 damage per 100lbs should be enough. :smallbiggrin:

This is really an OoC problem. Your group should understand that if a mistake was made it needs to be fixed. Otherwise you get really silly contest that result in TPKs.

Deadline

2017-01-30, 06:41 PM

Important question that needs an answer:

1. Why did you allow him to play this character with this gear in your game?

John Longarrow

2017-01-30, 06:42 PM

Antimagic zones and dead zones have no effect on him. The sline sounds like a good Idea though.

What prevents them from working? And why can't you dump him in a plane where they don't exist?

EDIT: Silly idea. Let the party enter an area where that buffs everyone to have +100 to all stats. They also all get SR 100 while in the area. Let some orcs with sunder and power attack come to play. Since he can't be affected by buffs, he doesn't have all the goodies. Probably want to toss in a special effect where everyone gets 10 actions per round (him still with one) due to weird time field.

Hey, if you want broken you can make broken.. LOL

lylsyly

2017-01-30, 06:46 PM

Woah! You guys showed up out of no where. Sorry was making some corrections.

It don't take long :smallbiggrin:

He got it from another dm in a previous campaign. And the way the armor is crafted he has no spell failure chance. It was personally made by a dm for him. Homebrew.

And you let him keep it why?

1) The armor was hombrewed specifically for him he has no spelk failure chance and all the previous dm said to him was "all magic cast at you, including buffs, have no effect whatsoever."

And you let him keep it why?

2) Both in game and out of it he insults me. In game its the "hit me with your best shot." type stuff.

Out of Game he insults you? Can you say "get off my table?"

Okay, as the DM you can homebrew anything you want (see my sig), so homebrew yourself a monster that never misses on a ranged touch attack and a successful hit not only does some HP damage, but also simply turns any metal into vapor. Yes, its kinda a cheeky answer but ...

Out of Game he insults you? Can you say "get off my table?"

just my 2 coppers
YMMV

Kelb_Panthera

2017-01-30, 06:46 PM

Ok. His armor makes him completely immune to any spells cast at him. It does not effect the area around him, or the spells he casts at other targets (characters, creatures, etc.) he also has an amulet that keeps him from having to count his spells per day. He's powerful enough without the armor, but he shows up to the sessions and challenges my ability to dm everytime. I can admit to him outsmarting me and on the onset of the campaign I should have told him to lose it.

He got it from another dm in a previous campaign. And the way the armor is crafted he has no spell failure chance. It was personally made by a dm for him. Homebrew.

1) The armor was hombrewed specifically for him he has no spelk failure chance and all the previous dm said to him was "all magic cast at you, including buffs, have no effect whatsoever."

This is unacceptable nonsense. Lose it. Not in-game, just straight up "Letting you keep it was a mistake on my part. Sorry but it's gotta go." He's probably going to whine but stick to your guns.

2) Both in game and out of it he insults me. In game its the "hit me with your best shot." type stuff.

If it's just good-natured ribbing, ask him to knock it off. If it's not, tell him to knock it off or hit the bricks. If there's not -some- level of mutual respect between you, this can only go down hill.

LightSeeker

2017-01-30, 06:49 PM

John Longarrow

2017-01-30, 06:52 PM

You know... if you really really really want to be evil... just let them go some place that has water. His armor is not going to float. Let him fall in and see how long he can hold his breath?

LightSeeker

2017-01-30, 06:54 PM

All good ideas for me to use.

Answer to one question. The reason I let him keep it is because he is (was?) a good friend of mine all the players are. Im generally a nice guy so I let him keep his toy.

OldTrees1

2017-01-30, 06:56 PM

Its been a pickle for awhile now and Im pretty sure Ill just have to destroy his armor. Its how to justify it is the question. I cant just say "the barbarian uses sunder and your armor is destroyed." that isnt right. And it would send a bad message to the others. Im not a dictator. Im sorry for all the bad form on these posts its been a long time since I was on a forum and im using a weak phone.

So for some reason your playgroup does not accept DM's as capable of making mistakes so you "must" solve the armor in game.

In this new section of the adventure you will be going to a highly caustic place. Your employer is willing to enchant you with a long duration buff to reduce or eliminate the effect of the acid on yourself and your equipment. (Obvious consequence of the no buffs drawback)

All good ideas for me to use.

Answer to one question. The reason I let him keep it is because he is (was?) a good friend of mine all the players are. Im generally a nice guy so I let him keep his toy.

I understand the desire to let him keep his toy. That is why I suggested to remove it only for the duration of the campaign. The character still has the toy but does not disrupt the balance of your campaign.

LightSeeker

2017-01-30, 06:57 PM

Kelb_Panthera

2017-01-30, 06:59 PM

John Longarrow

2017-01-30, 07:00 PM

There are several things you will need to learn to be a good DM though.
1) Out of character problems need to be solved out of character. Most of the suggestions I'm betting were given tongue in cheek because it never works out if you try to solve an out of character problem in game.
2) DM needs to make sure everyone is having fun. If one player is being a problem, they need to be fixed.
3) DM needs to have fun. If your not, don't do it.
4) People need to be respectful to each other. DM does and should have the ability to boot a player who is disrupting the game.
5) Players have character in the DMs world. They can't dictate what is or is not available. They can't tell the DM how to run the game either.
6) Good DMs ask the player what they like and enjoy. They then tailor the game to the players preferences while still keeping the game fun for themselves.

If that player was at my table and they insulted me they'd be asked to stop it. If they didn't, they'd be asked to leave. Breaking or taking away his toys won't change the base problem.

If, for what ever reason, you are not able to solve this out of character and you cannot remove the player, then you are stuck with either making the game un-fun for every one else OR for this player. In your shoes I'm be inclined to let him attack the wrong being and be struck by a divine curse that prevents him from casting spells until he atones.

Stryyke

2017-01-30, 07:06 PM

Pleh

2017-01-30, 07:07 PM

I would suggest the armor becomes intelligent and realizes it doesn't need this puny sorcerer. It shakes him out and walks off to have its own adventures.

LightSeeker

2017-01-30, 07:08 PM

I think thats what I'll do then. Ill correct my mistake. I appriciate all the help guys, and gals of course, This all started out as a nonsense session cause three of us (6 now) were bored and it turned into something else. I think the matter is dealt with now. Thank you.

lylsyly

2017-01-30, 07:09 PM

I would suggest the armor becomes intelligent and realizes it doesn't need this puny sorcerer. It shakes him out and walks off to have its own adventures.

Oh god, I love it, and I needed a good laugh anyway (sorry, I gotta get a towel to dry off my keyboard).

LightSeeker

2017-01-30, 07:11 PM

It sounds to me that this is only tangentially an OOC problem. You and he are good friends normally, you said. Is he the kind of guy who would hold a grudge if he wasn't op anymore? Will he understand if you just tell him to lose it? Will he understand if it get's broken by a legitimate IC threat? Has this problem arisen only since this armor was permitted? Or does he have a history of serious power gaming?

He keeps grudges. He would probably understand but at the same time the last time I messed with his stuff in game (we ocasionally switch around the dm.) he hazed my character and me for 7 hours straight. And he does indeed have a history of powergaming, a mile wide.

Wartex1

2017-01-30, 07:18 PM

He sounds like an utterly toxic player. Talk with some of the other members of the group and ask what they think about it, and come to an agreement with them. Once you all have agreed on a course of action, execute it, such as request that he tone it down, give up the armor for the campaign, and stop being a jerk. If he doesn't comply with what you've reached with the rest of the group, you have full power to kick him out until he improves his behavior.

Stryyke

2017-01-30, 07:18 PM

The only other way to handle it is to make everyone else as op as him. Then just adjust the CR level to account for their increased effectiveness. If you can deal with more advanced encounters that take advantage of specific weaknesses, this might be the best way to do it. Everyone else would have fun with OP gear, and wouldn't feel overshadowed. And you wouldn't actually take anything from the player.

vasilidor

2017-01-30, 10:09 PM

one in game solution to jerk moves like this is to have a god show up and take the armor. seen similar done before.

but seriously, talk to him, tell him that the armor has no place in your game. or you can try the following to attempt balance.

ways to balance this armor include making it so that no other magic item can give him benefits while he wears it, also no healing. you could also have an enemy wait for him to take the armor off so he can be healed and then ambush him. other things to do in game to make it more trouble than its worth is his own spells have no effect on him. he cannot teleport, fly, go invisible, transform etc.

he can still be hurt in melee right? not immune to swords? throw a tarasque at him. or a pack(swarm) of rust monsters. while everyone else can potentially use magic to get away from the monster he is screwed unless he gives up the armor. also consider the applications of poison and disease. as long as he is in the armor he cannot get magically cured. and as soon as he does, ambush him with an angry wizard.

Yahzi

2017-01-31, 04:09 AM

dares me to throw stuff at him
So throw away. He's immune... but the people around him aren't.

Once every person in the world runs from in fear from being collateral damage, he might come to think of the armor as more of a curse than a blessing. Something to be taken out and worn only when necessary, rather than as a constant challenge to Fate.

Calthropstu

2017-01-31, 04:48 AM

Two words: Rust Monster.

Edit: Make it another 2 words.

Improved invisibility.

Edit 2: With silence. And flying.

He's asking for this. He's literally begging for it.

EisenKreutzer

2017-01-31, 05:02 AM

How about just starting a new campaign, new characters, new setting?

Pitch a new campaign world to your players and start fresh!

But seriously, talk to them about being douches. It's not cool.

eggynack

2017-01-31, 06:10 AM

Calthropstu

2017-01-31, 06:18 AM

Is there any particular reason a barbarian can't stab his character to death normal-style? Typically buffs would stop such a plan, but it looks like the armor makes his character buffless. To the extent items would stop the plan, they must be fairly predictable. Bigger and more complicated strategies could get used, but a simple stabbing seems sufficient.

Oh, my plan is so much more awesome... A wizard buffs a rust beast, destroys his precious armor and mops the floor with a buffless sorcerer in a single round. His character dies, he loses his favorite item, and there's nothing he can do about it.

It seems the problem is the fact he allowed this armor in the first place. It's a standard newbie mistake... in the future, don't allow stuff like that.

eggynack

2017-01-31, 06:29 AM

Oh, my plan is so much more awesome... A wizard buffs a rust beast, destroys his precious armor and mops the floor with a buffless sorcerer in a single round. His character dies, he loses his favorite item, and there's nothing he can do about it.

It seems the problem is the fact he allowed this armor in the first place. It's a standard newbie mistake... in the future, don't allow stuff like that.
I dunno. I'm kinda a fan of the simple approach. A buffed rust beast tells the player that you made this really specific anti-armor plan, one particularly designed to destroy not only them but all that they once loved. A more or less bog standard mid-op barbarian tells the player that, for all their claims of superiority, all it takes is a crappy barbarian to destroy them utterly. You didn't even really need to make a plan to kill them. Any old thing would do it. A wizard buffed rust beast says that the character was strong enough to require particular attention, which in itself is something of a compliment. A barbarian says the character was weak enough to get killed by any old thing, and that you didn't really care about them or their stupid armor all that much, even backed up by taunts, which in itself is something of an insult.

The plan's lack of awesome is what makes it awesome. If the player is sufficiently community savvy, I'd advise replacing the barbarian with a monk. That'd show 'em.

Alent

2017-01-31, 06:47 AM

If you just want to throttle him back some, send the party into a dungeon based on the Magnes Cave from Final Fantasy 4. You know, the one where magnetic armor becomes too heavy to move in... and his armor develops an id score and walks off while they're inside on the quest.

JonathanPDX

2017-01-31, 07:02 AM

I would never recommend that an inexperienced DM take over a preexisting campaign or try to learn the ropes with a powerful high-level party. Not only are you forced to step into someone else's shoes, you aren't being allowed to set your own tone as DM. If the players don't respect you and believe in your ability to run the campaign then you're doomed to fail from the start. The previous DM has stepped outside the rules and put you in a really tough place where you have to get very creative within the rules or step out of them yourself to solve the problem.

Solving the issue within the rules and in game is going to require you to play dirty, which the players may take personally. If they won't accept an out-of-game fix they probably won't accept it when a rust monster melts the armor, or an invisible thief steals it while the character is sleeping. Instead of the DM narrating a story that the players write you're going to be fighting against them and their goal will be to beat you, not to explore the world you create for them. If they want an "us vs the DM" campaign you have to either cook up something they can't handle or throw in the towel and tell them you aren't comfortable running such an adversarial gaming group.

My advice is to start fresh with a level 1 campaign, have everyone create new characters to allow you to find your voice and set the rules for your world. For example, follow the guidelines within the core rulebooks for magic items and wealth by character level. If the players are really attached to their old characters either allow them to revisit that world again in the future or make those characters NPC's in your new world. Perhaps the guy with super armor is a king or legend they will hear tales of. Or maybe he vanished mysteriously and one day you can build an adventure around the story of whatever it was that finally stopped the unkillable sorcerer.

You set the tone and are in control of the world. Magic could be rare, or illegal, or all the enchanters could be locked up which makes even mundane magic items very hard to come by. Or so common that any idiot at the local tavern can cast Time Stop and wipe the floor with your experienced decked-out party. In the end, you set the rules and the players agree to abide by them when they come to your session. If they can't do that then all the rust monsters and anti-magic fields in the world aren't going to fix things.

-JonathanPDX

Calthropstu

2017-01-31, 07:07 AM

I dunno. I'm kinda a fan of the simple approach. A buffed rust beast tells the player that you made this really specific anti-armor plan, one particularly designed to destroy not only them but all that they once loved. A more or less bog standard mid-op barbarian tells the player that, for all their claims of superiority, all it takes is a crappy barbarian to destroy them utterly. You didn't even really need to make a plan to kill them. Any old thing would do it. A wizard buffed rust beast says that the character was strong enough to require particular attention, which in itself is something of a compliment. A barbarian says the character was weak enough to get killed by any old thing, and that you didn't really care about them or their stupid armor all that much, even backed up by taunts, which in itself is something of an insult.

The plan's lack of awesome is what makes it awesome. If the player is sufficiently community savvy, I'd advise replacing the barbarian with a monk. That'd show 'em.

Maybe, but you have to take into account the other players. A rampaging barbarian could be intercepted by the party fighter. Meanwhile, the rust monster would go straight for this armor and stopping it would be impossible.

I would never recommend that an inexperienced DM take over a preexisting campaign or try to learn the ropes with a powerful high-level party. Not only are you forced to step into someone else's shoes, you aren't being allowed to set your own tone as DM. If the players don't respect you and believe in your ability to run the campaign then you're doomed to fail from the start. The previous DM has stepped outside the rules and put you in a really tough place where you have to get very creative within the rules or step out of them yourself to solve the problem.

Solving the issue within the rules and in game is going to require you to play dirty, which the players may take personally. If they won't accept an out-of-game fix they probably won't accept it when a rust monster melts the armor, or an invisible thief steals it while the character is sleeping. Instead of the DM narrating a story that the players write you're going to be fighting against them and their goal will be to beat you, not to explore the world you create for them. If they want an "us vs the DM" campaign you have to either cook up something they can't handle or throw in the towel and tell them you aren't comfortable running such an adversarial gaming group.

My advice is to start fresh with a level 1 campaign, have everyone create new characters to allow you to find your voice and set the rules for your world. For example, follow the guidelines within the core rulebooks for magic items and wealth by character level. If the players are really attached to their old characters either allow them to revisit that world again in the future or make those characters NPC's in your new world. Perhaps the guy with super armor is a king or legend they will hear tales of. Or maybe he vanished mysteriously and one day you can build an adventure around the story of whatever it was that finally stopped the unkillable sorcerer.

You set the tone and are in control of the world. Magic could be rare, or illegal, or all the enchanters could be locked up which makes even mundane magic items very hard to come by. Or so common that any idiot at the local tavern can cast Time Stop and wipe the floor with your experienced decked-out party. In the end, you set the rules and the players agree to abide by them when they come to your session. If they can't do that then all the rust monsters and anti-magic fields in the world aren't going to fix things.

-JonathanPDX

Kinda sounds to me like these players WANT to finish this campaign. I understand the sentiment honestly, they have a lot invested in these characters and it's hard to let go.

Your suggestion is probably the wisest one, but I think it may be difficult for him to approach it like that. Meanwhile, this problem player has said "give me your best shot." He has invited any number of scenarios upon himself. When I had a player do this, I killed him with 50 1st level archers equipped with potions of true strike.

Tohsaka Rin

2017-01-31, 07:16 AM

Maybe, but you have to take into account the other players. A rampaging barbarian could be intercepted by the party fighter. Meanwhile, the rust monster would go straight for this armor and stopping it would be impossible.

Which just sends the message 'I'm specifically targeting you, and this isn't an act of the dice, but a vindictive DM'.

I fail to see how actively punishing a player for something that can, and should be approached OOC first, is anything resembling 'awesome'.

Punishing a player isn't awesome. It's essentially actively trying to anger the player enough to make then quit playing with you, potentially forever, and at the very least, more than enough to make a less restrained player actively sink the campaign. Not only that, but you run the risk of the rest of the table getting mad at you for pulling such a low blow, and now potentially have multiple problems with players at the table, not just the one.

Always, always, always talk to your players, if you're having a problem. It is easily, by far, the fastest and least frustrating, way to resolve issues and conflicts.

eggynack

2017-01-31, 07:24 AM

Maybe, but you have to take into account the other players. A rampaging barbarian could be intercepted by the party fighter. Meanwhile, the rust monster would go straight for this armor and stopping it would be impossible.

If it fails it fails. A cool thing about a low key approach is that you can use something similar to it a few times without raising any eyebrows. I also wouldn't be too scared about an intercepting fighter specifically. The fighter's not likely going to cover all directions of attack at once, and a barbarian can charge in with death from any of those directions, through surprise and such. A plan with a 100% chance of success is no better than just dropping rocks.

Wartex1

2017-01-31, 07:41 AM

To make the Rust Monster idea less vindictive, have a recurring spellcaster enemy who randomly summons monsters to their side, and put weird non-standard attack monsters like Rust Monsters or Intellect Devourers on the percentile list.

Pleh

2017-01-31, 08:38 AM

Let me explain the logic behind my suggestion a bit more, in light of the other posts since then.

In a video game magazine article (I forget the name) I read about the behind the scenes work TellTale was doing in some of their upcoming (at the time) games.

At that time, their game series, The Walking Dead (TWD) was a smash hit and they were explaining what they were doing in making Tales of the Borderlands (TotB). In TWD, the point was to create a bleak atmosphere where the player didn't like any of their choices (and often the result was tragic either way). In TotB, they recoginzed that Borderlands was a set of games about disregarding realism and indulging in power fantasy and greed. So, they made TotB a game where all the options were so good you wanted all of them, but could only pick one.

I had this latter philosophy in mind with my suggestion. The previous DM has been grossly generous with this player. How do you correct it without becoming the bad guy who won't let his friends have nice things because he isn't clever enough to play smart?

My answer: pile more power onto it so it no longer functions on the same level as your game. Make the armor Intelligent (there is no way the player has any power to prevent this with a roll or spell). It then becomes an NPC and you determine ALL its actions.

A suit of armor completely immune to magic likely would not be tremendously susceptible to UMD (just laugh and say, "it's immune") or diplomancy (it can't hear or understand you).

Having it dismount the sorcerer and leave is the nice thing to do. If the armor just wants to walk off and take the sorcerer with him, there's not a lot the sorcerer can do to get away. He can't teleport out of a suit of armor that makes him immune to targeting himself with spells and he can't overpower the armor that has him pinned automatically.

But the whole suggestion is this: go the other way. Don't try to cut him or his toy down to a playable level. Exaggerate the fact that it's too nice to play with until he gets to the point that he thought it was his own idea to get rid of that stupid thing.

Segev

2017-01-31, 08:42 AM

Okay. If he's saying "hit me with your best shot," and then whining when "his stuff" is messed with, then you can just ask him, "Didn't you want my best shot? I thought you could take it."

Of course, that's being a jerk right back, so while it's my first suggestion chronologically, it really isn't my best. Better is to talk to him out of game. If he won't tone down the insults to you, he should be removed from the game.

The others are right: you have no obligation to let him keep armor and an amulet that are, by any rules, not merely epic, but epic artifacts. His character isn't powerful; he just has two toys that make him overpowered.

Even with that, I wonder how smart he plays. Could he handle being caught in the center of the AoE of a rock to mud? What about that same muddy area when it's hit with mud to rock? This combo allows a reflex save, but the character isn't the target of the magic and, if he fails, is entombed in the stone. With no ability to move, he can only cast verbal-only spells. No material components (he can't reach them) nor somatic (he can't move). Letting him speak is generously assuming the armor is keeping him able to expand his lungs and the stone off his mouth.

There are absolutely ways a sorcerer of his level should be able to deal with it, but I wonder if he knows them, or if he's reliant on that armor.

If he's allowed to bring that amulet and armor into your game, you should absolutely be allowed to mess with them. Have a rogue/sorcerer who has armor made by the same master craftsman just for him hear of his amulet and hunt him down. Equally immune to magic, this rogue uses wraith strike to make touch attacks (so the armor's AC doesn't apply) and is really after the amulet...which he can steal with a DC 20 pickpocket check. (The opposed portion of pickpocket just lets the sorcerer know it's been taken, if he beats it. The rogue probably has more sleight of hand than the sorcerer does perception, though.)

All that said, the real problem is the out of game behavior. You should never be forced to allow another DM's broken gift to a PC into your game, and abuse and bullying from this guy is unacceptable. If he is hazing you for messing with his stuff when you DM...call him out on it. He's NOT being your friend. He's being a bully. If you still want to hang out with him, call him out on it each time, and have your characters respond appropriately in-game. I don't generally recommend this kind of hostility, but sometimes pushback is enough after they've been told to quit it.

Stealth Marmot

2017-01-31, 08:49 AM

This is unacceptable nonsense. Lose it. Not in-game, just straight up "Letting you keep it was a mistake on my part. Sorry but it's gotta go." He's probably going to whine but stick to your guns.

If it's just good-natured ribbing, ask him to knock it off. If it's not, tell him to knock it off or hit the bricks. If there's not -some- level of mutual respect between you, this can only go down hill.

Kelb needs to stop being so right about everything.

Anyway, I echo the sentiment of drawing the line. Normally I have the attitude of the improvisation that is "Yes, but..." rather than "No." but this was a decision and creation made by a different DM without your input.

You not only should say No, but you NEED to say No. If you don't, this guy WILL walk all over you and I don't just mean in game.

And you need to deal with it out of game because this is not something that is truly a problem IN game.

If he decides to get angry, inform him that he has 2 options, either he loses the armor here and now, and he has options to instead reapply his magic spells to include mage armor or bracers of armor, or a deity throws his ass into a deep ocean with an antimagic field around his neck and he can either ditch the armor or drown. (I don't imagine a sorcerer has very many ranks in swim, and not enough to counter a -12 to his checks.)

One option is you admitting you made a mistake that affects game balance severely, and you want to make it right, the other is you reminding him that you are DM and decide his character's fate.

JyP

2017-01-31, 08:54 AM

as other said before, one solution is to have the armor being intelligent with its own purpose - I am thinking about Cancer Cloth (http://saintseiya.wikia.com/wiki/Cancer_Cloth) in Saint Seiya, which stopped to protect Deathmask as he was too evil.

Another way is to say that this armor is not unique : here comes a barbarian with the same armor - he cannot be harmed by magic also, but he can hit the sorcerer fine...

John Longarrow

2017-01-31, 10:38 AM

Note: Incorporeal Undead that drain strength could have a massive impact on his character and be part of an adventure you are in. Shadows, like other incorporeal undead, like hiding under ground and popping out just long enough to get their attack. Being unable to self buff, he's going to have a nasty surprise when he gets dropped by something that is CR 3.

I'm guessing most of the players in your game are highschool or younger? This type of behavior can persist in an older crowd but is seldom encountered. This is because older groups normally won't tolerate it and will kick out the offending person(s).

EisenKreutzer

2017-01-31, 10:41 AM

An incredibly magnetic meteorite could more or less incapacitate him and force him to remove his armor.

LightSeeker

2017-02-10, 09:18 AM

Wow! I apologize to everyone I had no idea this was still going. The armor has yet to be dealt with but it will be this saturday. Last week a friend of mine dmed and his solution is...well..cruel. That being said its out of my immediate hands for the moment. My group consistes of five 25+ years d&d vets. Im the youngest at 22. They're good people (if a tad crazy) and they've been helpful in my development as a player, a DM and even an individual.
Back on track, I've decided to take a step back and see if it really is just him kidding around. Im terrible at telling the difference anyway.
You guys are awesome and have contributed to alot of ideas all of which I plan on using in the future. Thank you.

Lormador

2017-02-10, 10:40 AM

I remember being in my early 20s and playing with all sorts of people I didn't like all that much. Mostly we got along, occasionally there were problems. Not quite with this level of insanity, but problems.

At some point as I got older, I realized that this is a game that we're all supposed to enjoy. Why should I even be dealing with silly problems like this during my precious game time? I deal with numerous problems elsewhere in my life, can we just keep game time fun?

Keep the bar for participating in the game a bit high. Memorable campaigns are the ones where the players put in almost as much work as the DM.

But lesson learned: importing characters/campaigns is difficult and dangerous. When you review all characters, down to the items, alternative class features, traits, and especially gear, you'll find some things you'll want to adjust. Players generally don't like this. And why turn up the opportunity to start a new campaign?

Jay R

2017-02-10, 12:40 PM

A. Rust monsters.

B. Area effects. No armor prevents him from having to breathe.

C. Night attacks. He can't wear it to sleep.

D. And the classic defense for any over-powered PC -- a Mirror of Opposition. Even if he defeats his mirror-image, you now know how he can be beaten.

E. Ablative armor. He notices a small crack in the armor. Each time he is attacked, there is a 1% chance the attack isn't stopped, and a 1% chance of spell failure. Next session, the crack is larger, and it's 3%, then 6%, 10%, etc., until the.

Nobody in this world knows how to repair such an incredibly powerful magic armor.

This lets him know that the end is coming, and gives him time to get used to playing the same game the other players are playing.

But all of these are just trying to avoid doing the DM's job, which is to disallow unfair situations.

Mordaedil

2017-02-14, 08:52 AM

Is there anything stopping him from just losing the armor to a Dispel/Shatter spell?

BearonVonMu

2017-02-14, 03:11 PM

If this set of unique armor is wandering around being utterly invincible, then tales of its/his might would spread.
That sounds like the sort of situation that a would-be renowned combatant/hero/monster slayer would want to cut their teeth on. The sort of power that they would kill to obtain.
So let headhunters start showing up.
Let the character find a sealed envelope addressed to them, filled with an offer of a large (large) amount of gold to purchase the armor, with the antidote to the GM level poison that covered this note as part of the price. The magic immune poison that has a save DC of "one higher than what you saved with" and recurring ability damage as its payload.
Let groups of mercenaries start showing up looking for the similar amount of gold bounty that the buyer set.
"I will offer one million gold to the one who brings me this armor, and have extended the courtesy of offering you, armor wearer, first."

flappeercraft

2017-02-14, 03:23 PM

Solution, use Instantaneous conjurations such as Orb of Fire, they are created by magic but that is all the magic does, it is nonmagical after that meaning that it should affect him normally.

jdizzlean

2017-02-14, 11:29 PM

A little late to the party, but:

Open a pit beneath him, sure he can probably cast fly, but he’ll be doing full defensive moves and won’t be able to attack.

Cast an orb of water, or a high lvl create water spell on him, and have it held in place by a wall if need be, now he’s drowning.

Have a thief steal his armor in the night, does he sleep w/ it on?

Create an item that specifically negates save vs all magic, and give it to a bad guy to whack him w/. maybe something mundane like a club in the hands of a giant…

Have a demon simply possess him, and then take the armor off, allowing it’s minions to then whoop him

Stone shape, wood shape. Create a cage he can't get out of, or a trap that seals him inside. If he tries blasting his way out of a hole in the mountain, the mountain comes down on him.

Acid.

AoE stone rain and just bury his ass.

have his armor be the target of a wish spell, the armor protects him, not itself.

create a swarm of adamantine eating ants, and have them descend upon him in the night. the spot check to even detect that would be impossible to roll. Even if they don't destroy it, now his spell saves, and spell checks are back to having %'s applied to them instead of it being an i win button.

there are 1000 ways to get around spell immunity, the easiest way is to simply do it w/o spells, or do it w/ spells that aren't neccessarily targeting him, but the area around him.

ShaneMRoth

2017-02-18, 08:40 AM

So many strong recommendations on this thread.

My two copper pieces...

This is a tough way to learn a lesson, but hopefully you learned it. Never trust this player again. And learn to say NO to him. It's the only way.

The important thing is... you know now.

If I weren't going to take the excellent advice already posted, I might do one other thing.

Make his character a god.

Use whatever rules you have available to cause his apotheosis and make him the God of [Whatever From High Atop The Thing.]

Add his character to whatever pantheon of gods are already in your milieu, but make it clear that until the other players also have god player-characters, his sorcerer-god is going to have to retire for now.

Put the character on whatever outer plane is keyed to his alignment and tell him this is his new home now.

It will take a while to get his character set up as a god, to assign portfolios and sort out his new home on [NOT the Prime Material Plane], and it wouldn't be fair to make the other players do nothing while you work out his new status as a GOD.

And when it's time for him to take over as DM, and get his payback... what is he going to do in retaliation? Make one of your characters into a god?

He'll look like a complete ****-gibbon if he craps on you for granting his character god-hood.

Don't worry, he will find a way to justify some sort of ****-move in response, but that is going to happen no matter what you do.

Again, don't trust this guy further that you could throw the Tarrasque.

Calthropstu

2017-02-18, 09:15 AM

Again, don't trust this guy further that you could throw the Tarrasque.
With some of these throwing builds working on throwing at interplanetary levels, you could probably build something that could throw the Tarrasque into the stratosphere.

Jay R

2017-02-18, 09:28 AM

He got it from another dm in a previous campaign. And the way the armor is crafted he has no spell failure chance. It was personally made by a dm for him. Homebrew.

Have you spoken to that DM? If not, tell the player that you need to speak to him to find out from the DM what its exact characteristics are, including the ones the player and character don't know about.

Frankly, I'm not convinced any DM gave it to him.

Calthropstu

2017-02-18, 09:31 AM

Have you spoken to that DM? If not, tell the player that you need to speak to him to find out from the DM what its exact characteristics are, including the ones the player and character don't know about.

Frankly, I'm not convinced any DM gave it to him.

Heh.

"Yeah, my previous GM totally gave me this ring of god slaying with +24 to all my stats."

Blu

2017-02-18, 10:24 AM

The campaign takes place in a dying world and magic is starting to slowly fade.

I see your solution here... I mean, you can go the easy route and say: "Your armor stops working, you now have arcane spell failure."
Or just go with something more mature and profound... like make his armor part of the various causes that make the magic fade. Like his armor is not only immune to magic, it constantly drains the magic around him. Make im have a little(like 5%,10%) spell failure, representing his armor draining him. And you can even put a very deep cutscene where the characters find some fey(or other magical creatures of some sort) and describe has they slowly die away, being drain of their life force, in a very emotional cutscene.

Edit: Also, Orb of X are a line of spells that ignore SR(because you create an orb of some element, instead of magic), target touch AC(no full plate here) and do some serious damage. They can also be a solution.

Edit 2: Normally at a table, a lvl 15 character(especially one with a all powerfull armor) is someone that is known at least in an entire country. So people would just show up to see/challenge/rob/kill his character, because he has notoriety

LightSeeker

2017-02-23, 09:18 PM

We came to an understanding. And now he knows that he's character isnt invincible. He encountered an ancient race of elves (my creation) that made his fancy armor look like tinfoil. Him knowing that I can get around it (thanks to all your input) mitigated alot of the problems. All is well. As for his OP gear, in about three more sessions it wont matter. Again thank you all for your sage advice im a better DM because of it.

Xanyo

2017-02-23, 09:23 PM

Two words. Rust monster.
Their rust is an extraordinary ability. One touch, and hey presto - the armor's gone. That amulet also sounds like a problem, giving him unlimited spells/day. Enter a rogue to steal it.

John Longarrow

2017-02-23, 10:33 PM

As for his OP gear, in about three more sessions it wont matter. Again thank you all for your sage advice im a better DM because of it.

Changing DMs again?

denthor

2017-02-23, 10:58 PM

simple enemy is in a volcano armor can make you
be cooked .

once played a corridor that had copper plates lining each side first 10 feet hot. every 10 feet after that metal armor heated up 1d4 then 2d4 3d4 4d4 5d4 6d4 last 10 feet 7d4 one way you of course could walk down the corridor other ways progress damage both ways.

Ways around it endure elements no armor stops this. take armor off take damage . Wrap in a wet blanket reduce by 1d4 per ten feet if no armor.

Fouredged Sword

2017-02-24, 09:54 AM

Here is my two cents. Have an encounter go off as normal with some orcs or some such. Let combat unfold and let an orc get close to your problem sorcerer. A quick sunder attempt should deal some HP damage to the armor itself.

Now, here is the beautiful part. It can't be repaired with magic due to being immune to magic. That means he needs to crack open the mundane crafting rules and pay a mundane crafter to repair the dang thing. It's adimantium plate mail. It will take MONTHS of in game time to fix it. Keep the damn thing sitting in a blacksmith's shop until you pass the DM seat and let the next DM decide if they want that silliness in their game.

Ualaa

2017-02-25, 01:19 AM

Take your pick...

The armor is massively strong...
And that likely makes this player much tougher than the others in the group.

A:
You can remove the armor.
Talk with the player, and say that the armor is not working for you as a DM.
See if he'll be amenable to changing the armor out.

B:
Give everyone else similarly powerful items.
And now that everyone else in the group is up to his level, throw much harder creatures at the group.
If you need to throw monsters which are 5 levels higher than normal, to have a normal challenge, then the group is effectively +5 levels in power so calculate experience as if the monsters were five levels lower.
Or alternatively, give the group appropriate experience for mobs which are 5 (or 15... whatever you need to do) levels higher, and very quickly the armor isn't anything special for your group of level 35 characters... who will naturally run into opponents who are Gestalt (just the bad guys) level 35-40 guys too.

C:
A dwarven thief/armor smith had stolen the plans from one of the gods... and had been crafting armor like crazy ever since. Your sorcerer player came into contact with such a suit. His armor was not unique, even if at the time he thought it was.
A group of adversaries each has a suit... so his spells are useless, but everyone else in the party gets to shine through martial prowess.
Soon, almost every group of humanoid opponents be they orcs, goblins, trolls, humans whatever, each have one of these...
The dwarf shares his secrets, in exchange for untold wealth, and soon there are hundreds of these suits everywhere.
The god of magic or the god of the forge realizes his stuff has been stolen, he sends a proxy (read extremely powerful character... that likely kills the entire group, after a massive and long fought battle, should they choose to fight) to recover the suits of armor.
The group can surrender the armor, or fight but even if they win they become cursed by the god of magic, and both spells and items cease to function for them, but not for their adversaries.
If the group wants to fight, the proxy as a free action - triggered by rolling initiative - summons a clone of himself for each of the PCs; any PC that helps the Sorcerer gets his own add to the fight, but those who watch without interference are just supervised...

D:
The suit has a side effect over time, it seeps away at the lifeforce of the wearer. Or hit him where it hurts, and it drains his magical power over time.
Sure he can continue to wear the suit, but beginning next session the draining commences.
Every game day, or maybe every time it breaks the rules by absorbing something it should not or allowing him to cast without arcane failure, it drains a hit point.
This hit point cannot be recovered by any means, except at the rate of one hit point per week of not wearing the armor at all.
The armor will literally kill him, if he continues to wear it.

E:
An emperor from a far away land hears of the armor, and decides he must have it. He sends a proxy, who offers a vast sum, and transportation to and from the empire, in exchange for the armor.
You can offer ten million gold pieces if you want, it is meaningless the number since you control where it can be spent... if the largest city that the group knows has a 100% chance of having items up to 25k value, a 50% chance of having an item from 25,001-50,000gp value, and a 10% chance of having an item from 50,001-80,000gp with no chance of having anything more valuable than that... adjust your numbers to taste, then having 1,000,000,000,000,000 gold is meaningless.
So the emperor will buy the armor for ten million in gold, with the catch that the player has to take his troublesome youngest daughter as his wife.
Develop that a bit, take it somewhere interesting.

So the player may figure, there's nothing he can buy with 500,000 gold (or whatever is offered) that will compare with his armor, so he turns the deal down.
Maybe the emperor is honorable and sends a champion, or series of champions, to challenge for the armor in honorable combat... they arrive buffed and ready for the fight, maybe with a retinue to ensure the other players do not assist... and they offer the sorcerer five rounds to buff up, or something equally useless since he's immune to his own buffs.
Maybe the emperor is not honorable and hires a small army or sends one of his numerous legions to acquire it.
Perhaps the princess is now scorned by the player, and she secretly sends assassins whose only goal is to kill the player off.

F:
The armor is actually a lesser artifact. In ancient times, whoever wore the armor was the tyrant king. But after eons of unfair ruling, a hero emerged and through prayer and a series of trials, was rewarded with the spear/bow of something, which has the purpose of destroying the tyrant (or whoever now wears his dread armor).
So we have a hero, who basically cannot miss the wearer of the armor, and is immune to anything the armor wearer can throw at him, with the exception of say punching damage...

Quertus

2017-02-25, 03:30 PM

I somehow missed this thread, but here's my advice: learn to automatically produce varied encounters, such that, even if you pre-wrote the entire campaign, someone with an item with this many obvious holes in its defenses wouldn't just cake walk thorough the whole thing. There's your end goal.

Mind you, these items do little for, say, environmental hazards, diplomatic encounters, or, heck, keeping the poor squishy unbuffed sorcerer alive in combat. One attack from an equal-level rogue would probably one-shot him.

In the short term, to borrow a phrase, learn to say, "yes, but". Yes, you can have this armor, but we'll need to go on quests to get everyone else some cool toys, too (assuming your group, you know, cares at all about game balance). Yes, you can bring this armor, but my world actually responds intelligently, and it's going to attract some rather dangerous foes - are you sure you want to risk losing it? Yes, you can bring this armor, but I'm not sure how it will work in my dying magic setting - do you have the underlying details of how it works, or your old DMs number?

ATHATH

2017-02-25, 07:20 PM

It's too bad that this is 3.5.

Because if it wasn't...

http://spoonyexperiment.com/counter-monkey/counter-monkey-the-apocalypse-stone-part-1/
http://spoonyexperiment.com/counter-monkey/counter-monkey-the-apocalypse-stone-part-2/

ATHATH

2017-02-25, 07:21 PM

It's too bad that this game isn't AD&D.

Because if it was...

http://spoonyexperiment.com/counter-monkey/counter-monkey-the-apocalypse-stone-part-1/
http://spoonyexperiment.com/counter-monkey/counter-monkey-the-apocalypse-stone-part-2/

LightSeeker

2017-03-02, 06:06 PM

I finally introduced an area that completely nerfed his armor. (keep in mind that at that point we were cool and the armor was no longer a problem.) he walked into this place I called the dead lands. Theres a 10 foot wide 3 week long trail from the edge of the desert to the old capitol of this place. That path is the only safe place, stepping anywhere else causes the character to lose 6 points from all his ability scores..permanently. Well, he took a step not knowing this. (there was a guide who knew the way and was happily ready to get them all across safely.) he figured his armor would protect him and his character is..well...useless. Its trapped right in the middle of the dead lands and he cant get to it. He cant cast spells there either. Yup armors gone. He was furious.

Pakis54

2017-04-11, 01:42 AM

what the heck am i reading??!!!

Darrin

2017-04-11, 08:00 AM

what the heck am i reading??!!!

Mostly Calvinball (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Calvinball) (warning: TVTropes link).

NOhara24

2017-04-11, 02:39 PM

Mostly Calvinball (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Calvinball) (warning: TVTropes link).

It's amazing the situation this guy got himself into because he didn't understand that the DM has final say in everything.

Side note: What kind of DM would grant this sort of armor in the first place? It's like letting people stay on your properties for free in Monopoly.

Dagroth

2017-04-11, 02:57 PM

A little late to the party, but:

Open a pit beneath him, sure he can probably cast fly, but he’ll be doing full defensive moves and won’t be able to attack.

Fly is (arguably) a buff spell. The Armor prevents him from being affected by buff spells. Featherfall won't work either.

A Ring of Featherfalling won't work, because it activates like the spell... which can't affect him.

Levitation? Sorry, the spell can't affect you... Boots of Levitation? Again, the spell can't affect you.

Wings of Flying? Sorry, the spell can't affect you.

Fiendish Wings Graft? Okay, now you can fly. And are Evil. :smallbiggrin:

Eleriel

2017-04-11, 03:16 PM

OP noted it was a "Homebrew" item created for the character by another DM. At least that's what's being reported.

Note: That would mean its still not good against conjurations.

Totally agree with Longarrow, conjuration would be a great way to show him that nothing is completely immune to spells.

Other than that, force dragons... sunder... some high level castar would shape a Mage Disjuction on him, i know this is a drastic measure, but you mentioned lack of respect and breaking the game...

If i can add some adventures tip, i have played one adventure where we entered an ancient ruin of a underground city, and there was one hall we needed to cross where we faced a copy of our own characters. This could be useful against his arrogance.

Cheers!

Gildedragon

2017-04-11, 03:20 PM

Super late:
But daily fort or will saves to avoid being slowly NPCed and turned into an adamantine golem
A rod of golem controlling dominates the armor, no save...