Tome of Battle IC Justifications

[Ignimortis]

I've been running a 3.5 campaign for a few months, and lately I've been getting into protracted arguments with one of my players concerning maneuvers.
At first it was about swordsages - how do they produce magical effects essentially non-stop, requiring only a round to recharge (and doing it better with Adaptive Style)?
After some consideration, I've allowed casters to use cantrips at-will and explained that swordsages manipulate little amounts of energy akin to a cantrip to produce their (Su) effects, being more efficient at it than standard arcane casters who either finish a long-prepared spell which can't be re-prepared on the fly, or burn through so much of their own magic energy just willing the reality to change that it can't recover naturally while they're active (thus necessitating resting at some point). It seemed to calm him down for a while.

After that came warblades - why do they have maneuvers, which are definitely not magic, and normal fighters/barbarians/rangers don't, when they're supposed to be (by having the same BAB growth) are apparently just as good as combat?
I tried to say that higher-level maneuvers (as high as level 2) require specialized training (Wall of Blades allows you to deflect spell rays, for instance - that's not a common technique at all), but he's adamant that since Fighters are implied by their fluff to be great warriors (while we all know that mechanically they're one or two trick ponies at best), they should have a maneuver progression - maybe a slower one, but if a fighter 6 is supposedly superhuman (which he kind of is), then why can't he do the tricks warblade 1 (who's a well-trained, but still very much mortal and vulnerable) can?

How do I handle it somewhat well? Currently I'm thinking that warblades fight in a certain battle trance which allows them to harness the natural rhythm of combat to defend themselves and attack better (INT to reflex, crits, flanking), while a fighter is a normal combatant that just perseveres in the chaos that is combat, and trying to use maneuvers while not being absolutely sure of their success would seem suicidal to them?

NB: no-one in the party is playing a Fighter or, in fact, anything lower than T3.

[Eldaran]

At first it was about swordsages - how do they produce magical effects essentially non-stop, requiring only a round to recharge (and doing it better with Adaptive Style)?


How do you explain warlocks? How do you explain creatures with at-will spell-like or supernatural abilities (of which there are many)? Different types of magic work in different ways.




After that came warblades - why do they have maneuvers, which are definitely not magic, and normal fighters/barbarians/rangers don't, when they're supposed to be (by having the same BAB growth) are apparently just as good as combat?
I tried to say that higher-level maneuvers (as high as level 2) require specialized training (Wall of Blades allows you to deflect spell rays, for instance - that's not a common technique at all), but he's adamant that since Fighters are implied by their fluff to be great warriors (while we all know that mechanically they're one or two trick ponies at best), they should have a maneuver progression - maybe a slower one, but if a fighter 6 is supposedly superhuman (which he kind of is), then why can't he do the tricks warblade 1 (who's a well-trained, but still very much mortal and vulnerable) can?

Why do barbarians have rage or rangers have an animal companion? They have different training, different training yields different results. Otherwise you have every class in the game being the same.

[EisenKreutzer]

Maybe it's time to separate the mechanics from the fluff and look at D&D as a game.

Barring that, it's easy to come up with an in-world explanation for this.
Initiators tap into a magical force when they initiate their maneuvers. It is essentially a kind of magic which, like psionics, draws upon an inner force to produce it's effects. Even a Warblade with only mundane maneuvers is actually performing a kind of magic.
The secrets to unlocking these magical powers are, much like Monk monasteries that teach supernatural techniques, closely guarded secrets. Which is why an ordinary Fighter cannot produce the same effects no matter how hard or long they have trained. A Fighter who wants to learn these techniques has to undergo special training to unlock his mystical potential.

[Hawkstar]

For warblades... Simple. They actually bothered to learn how to fight. Barbarians just smash things, Rangers are too busy frolicking in forests to learn how to fight properly, and Fighters are just a sorry excuse for half-trained warrior.

There's more to fighting than simply hitting one's enemy in the face over and over, as the Warblade demonstrates.


And the Swordsage? Their training involves tapping into supernatural power. It's explicitly stated. Sort of like how Monks gain supernatural abilities, except Swordsages actually learn how to fight with theirs.

That said - giving casters infinite cantrip use isn't a bad thing.

[EisenKreutzer]

Infinite cantrips for casters is a pretty good idea. I don't think there is a cantrip that can unbalance the game, and it gives casters something to do during the baby levels after they have blown their load.

[Tiri]

In the case of the Swordsages, certain maneuvers are explicitly called out as supernatural abilities, the same as many monsters have. You don't see a bodak having 'Death Gaze slots per day', do you? There are many different kinds of magic in D&D, and not all of them are the same as Wizards' magic.

As for non-magical maneuvers, they're just a different kind of combat training. You could ask why a paladin doesn't get Fighter bonus feats. The answer is the same.


an ordinary Fighter cannot produce the same effects no matter how hard or long they have trained. A Fighter who wants to learn these techniques has to multiclass.

Martial Study is a feat. It's even a Fighter bonus feat.

[EisenKreutzer]

Martial Study is a feat. It's even a Fighter bonus feat.

So it is. I hadn't thought of that. Mea culpa.

[OldTrees1]

Initiator vs Fighter:
Initiators are designed under a different battle paradigm. They are designed under the nitty gritty paradigm where your access to your techniques is inconsistent and context specific (although the mechanics abstract the context specificity into the arbitrary recharge mechanics).

As such a Fighter designed at the ToB tier level but under its own paradigm would be able to choose their action at will by combining a compatible set of action modifying techniques from a list of techniques. Staggering Strike + Knockback, Up the Walls + run as existing examples with Combat Reflexes & Whirlwind Attack being examples of non compatible modifiers.

So an IC explanation: Fighters spend more effort on the consistency of their techniques. By focusing on knowing how to alter their maneuver they are able to use it again immediately. Initiators on the other hand do not have the Fighter's patience and sacrifice consistency & mastery of their techniques in exchange for pushing themselves to learn harder techniques. The side effect is that while they might know those trickier techniques, they are subject to the random ebb and flow of combat to grant them the opportunity to use those techniques.



Initiator vs Magic:
Most maneuvers are "Extraordinary" rather than "Magic". This means they might break IRL physics but in game physics are more flexible. While Time Stands Still might reference the effect of Time Stop, that is purely for our benefit as readers. What really happens is the Warblade does an adrenaline fueled burst of rapid activity so fast it is at mythical rather than IRL levels. This is common for fantasy warriors throughout mythology. If calling it magical helps your suspension of disbelief, then just remember that what their world calls "magic" is a subset of what you call "magic". Thus the IC physics that mark that divide continue to work regardless of what we change the name to.

Some maneuvers are Supernatural. These ones literally are magical in the same sense the supernatural is magical. The IC reasoning is that training can unlock the potential for using supernatural powers.

[Deophaun]

What's there to explain? Some soldiers/knights/mercenaries/duelists are better at fighting than others. Assassins almost always use some magic, but they're a secretive bunch and tend to go their own ways. Some draw from their blood, others study, still others from the environment or dark gods. Whatever gets the job done is their motto.

As for these "warblades" and "fighters," never heard of 'em. Honestly, who would want to go by some ridiculous name like that? A barbarian? Yeah, I know one. Came from across the sea and lives in that strange tower. I hear he can enspell whatever you need, provided you can understand him.

[OldTrees1]

As for these "warblades" and "fighters," never heard of 'em. Honestly, who would want to go by some ridiculous name like that? A barbarian? Yeah, I know one. Came from across the sea and lives in that strange tower. I hear he can enspell whatever you need, provided you can understand him.

^This is just perfect.

[Ignimortis]

How do you explain warlocks? How do you explain creatures with at-will spell-like or supernatural abilities (of which there are many)? Different types of magic work in different ways.

Why do barbarians have rage or rangers have an animal companion? They have different training, different training yields different results. Otherwise you have every class in the game being the same.

That's basically what he was arguing at one point - that all the martial classes should be Fighter and all various classes should be feat chains - maneuver progression, rage, ranger-style abilities...


Maybe it's time to separate the mechanics from the fluff and look at D&D as a game.

Barring that, it's easy to come up with an in-world explanation for this.
Initiators tap into a magical force when they initiate their maneuvers. It is essentially a kind of magic which, like psionics, draws upon an inner force to produce it's effects. Even a Warblade with only mundane maneuvers is actually performing a kind of magic.
The secrets to unlocking these magical powers are, much like Monk monasteries that teach supernatural techniques, closely guarded secrets. Which is why an ordinary Fighter cannot produce the same effects no matter how hard or long they have trained. A Fighter who wants to learn these techniques has to multiclass.

He's the kind of guy who is absolutely sure that fluff determines the mechanics, and if it doesn't, then the mechanics are wrong and probably should be rewritten. We've had a debate on whether the warblade should actually be a class of it's own and if it should, why isn't it a prestige class rather than core, because in his eyes "warblades are either higher-level fighters or the next step after fighter, or just Mary Sues who are "just better" despite filling the same conceptual niche". We've argued about whether a shapeshifter's racial class should have access to Tiger Claw maneuvers and he argued that "they're in touch with their inner beast, and can manifest it physically, which is what Tiger Claw is all about" is insufficient basis for that, because barbarians are very similar and don't get maneuvers.
I'm probably on the other side of this, since I've played the same class before with wildly different justification for their abilities - like a barbarian who isn't a savage, just a perfectly civilized knight who's prone to outbursts of violence against his lord's enemies.

The issue with saying "it's just a different kind of magic" is that it's (Ex) and thus doesn't show up on his permanency'd detect magic radar (and he's very inquisitive both IC and OOC about every single magic effect that he finds, so far). There also aren't any Monks in the setting (nor psionics) - so basically supernatural boils down to "arcane/divine/pact (warlocks and binders)/innate monstrous magic". Swordsages are arcane, rather than chi-manipulating quasi-monks. I might've chased myself into a corner there. I mean, I did come up with a quasi-magical reason - there are basically three or four warblades in the whole world, one of them is another PC, who was trained by a scion of an ancient dynasty of supreme warriors who had a ritual to "unlock their true potential", but then that got bogged down in an argument of "then what's exactly different? why does our warblade have the same stats and point-buy as the rest of us, including a duskblade who doesn't know maneuvers?".

I'm starting to think he has an issue with either the system itself or ToB in particular, which is strange, since he's played PF a lot and praised Path of War, which is pretty much the same AFAIK.

[EisenKreutzer]

What's there to explain? Some soldiers/knights/mercenaries/duelists are better at fighting than others. Assassins almost always use some magic, but they're a secretive bunch and tend to go their own ways. Some draw from their blood, others study, still others from the environment or dark gods. Whatever gets the job done is their motto.

As for these "warblades" and "fighters," never heard of 'em. Honestly, who would want to go by some ridiculous name like that? A barbarian? Yeah, I know one. Came from across the sea and lives in that strange tower. I hear he can enspell whatever you need, provided you can understand him.

As far as in-universe explanations go, this is the best answer.

The characters do not know what class they are, or indeed what classes are at all.

[EisenKreutzer]

That's basically what he was arguing at one point - that all the martial classes should be Fighter and all various classes should be feat chains - maneuver progression, rage, ranger-style abilities...



He's the kind of guy who is absolutely sure that fluff determines the mechanics, and if it doesn't, then the mechanics are wrong and probably should be rewritten. We've had a debate on whether the warblade should actually be a class of it's own and if it should, why isn't it a prestige class rather than core, because in his eyes "warblades are either higher-level fighters or the next step after fighter, or just Mary Sues who are "just better" despite filling the same conceptual niche". We've argued about whether a shapeshifter's racial class should have access to Tiger Claw maneuvers and he argued that "they're in touch with their inner beast, and can manifest it physically, which is what Tiger Claw is all about" is insufficient basis for that, because barbarians are very similar and don't get maneuvers.
I'm probably on the other side of this, since I've played the same class before with wildly different justification for their abilities - like a barbarian who isn't a savage, just a perfectly civilized knight who's prone to outbursts of violence against his lord's enemies.

The issue with saying "it's just a different kind of magic" is that it's (Ex) and thus doesn't show up on his permanency'd detect magic radar (and he's very inquisitive both IC and OOC about every single magic effect that he finds, so far). There also aren't any Monks in the setting (nor psionics) - so basically supernatural boils down to "arcane/divine/pact (warlocks and binders)/innate monstrous magic". Swordsages are arcane, rather than chi-manipulating quasi-monks. I might've chased myself into a corner there. I mean, I did come up with a quasi-magical reason - there are basically three or four warblades in the whole world, one of them is another PC, who was trained by a scion of an ancient dynasty of supreme warriors who had a ritual to "unlock their true potential", but then that got bogged down in an argument of "then what's exactly different? why does our warblade have the same stats and point-buy as the rest of us, including a duskblade who doesn't know maneuvers?".

I'm starting to think he has an issue with either the system itself or ToB in particular, which is strange, since he's played PF a lot and praised Path of War, which is pretty much the same AFAIK.

Sounds like what your guy really wants is this. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?511086-Drop-Dead-Studios-Spheres-of-Combat-Kickstarter!)

[MesiDoomstalker]

I think he lacks the ability to see the forest for the trees. Tell him if he has a problem with how Tomb of Battle is fluffed compared to PHB classes, ask him to compare the writers of the two books. Make note of who worked on both. Then ask him how does he expect consistent fluff when the two books were written at different times by different authors? Either ToB conforms to PHB fluff (and defeats its own purpose) or it diverges.

[Ignimortis]

For warblades... Simple. They actually bothered to learn how to fight. Barbarians just smash things, Rangers are too busy frolicking in forests to learn how to fight properly, and Fighters are just a sorry excuse for half-trained warrior.

There's more to fighting than simply hitting one's enemy in the face over and over, as the Warblade demonstrates.


And the Swordsage? Their training involves tapping into supernatural power. It's explicitly stated. Sort of like how Monks gain supernatural abilities, except Swordsages actually learn how to fight with theirs.

That said - giving casters infinite cantrip use isn't a bad thing.

Fighters are officially an NPC class in my campaign, for bandit leaders/lieutenants or whatever. Anyone with a proper name and backstory is at least a fighter//something gestalt (a general is a fighter//marshal, for instance).


Infinite cantrips for casters is a pretty good idea. I don't think there is a cantrip that can unbalance the game, and it gives casters something to do during the baby levels after they have blown their load.

That's what I thought as well. Cure Minor Wounds, Create Water and Guidance are slightly unbalanced, but that's about it, yes. CMW is now an auto-stabilize, CWat is banned, and Guidance is a 1st-level spell with greater effect.


What's there to explain? Some soldiers/knights/mercenaries/duelists are better at fighting than others. Assassins almost always use some magic, but they're a secretive bunch and tend to go their own ways. Some draw from their blood, others study, still others from the environment or dark gods. Whatever gets the job done is their motto.

As for these "warblades" and "fighters," never heard of 'em. Honestly, who would want to go by some ridiculous name like that? A barbarian? Yeah, I know one. Came from across the sea and lives in that strange tower. I hear he can enspell whatever you need, provided you can understand him.

Dunno how I hadn't thought of that while actually describing how a duskblade would be referred to as a "battlemage", and so would be someone who was a wizard/fighter. Thanks, that should probably work. I guess that's the /thread, thanks to everyone who replied!

[Lord Haart]

Bob the street fighter used to have a glorious, if not well-paying, career as a boxer. Bob's father used to say: "If you want to live a long life, practice your right hook", and so Bob did. He knows how to throw it, he knows how to throw it really hard, and he knows how to throw it aplenty. His training regime is simple: swing a bag full of sand and rocks on a rope and punch it as it comes at you, so that your right hook stays mighty and practiced. Bob trusts his well-practiced right hook to be better and quicker than everyone else's — a perfect response to every conundrum — and if Devil himself will come tempt him in the middle of the night, he'll throw a fist first and wake up later. Bob's not all about simply being strong and tough, though — he's developed a secret technique as well; you haven't heard it from me, but Bob's secret battle technique is to sew lead weights into his boxing glove.

Clyde the street fighter, on the other hand, is well-versed in the rock-paper-scissorsy ways of the world; he knows you can be a one-trick pony or you can be a winning horse, but unless you're phenomenally good at your one trick — and Clyde knows he couldn't be that good — you have no business trying to be both. Clyde knows that some street fighters are just better, stronger, better prepared to fight him than he is — so he needs to adapt, he needs to be on a lookout for opportunities, and he needs to recognise their own weak point and use what they are least prepared to counter. They expect you to punch, you kick. They expect you to kick, you headbutt. They take a stable footing — you recognise that their footing is only as stable as the wooden floor they stand on, and you stomp really hard so it vibrates and you can catch them momentarily off-guard. Sand to the eyes and elbows to the back of the neck — sure, you can't just keep doing the same thing over and over again without working on creating a new opportunity for it, but even if you've only got to used it once, what really matters is that it worked. Clyde spends half his training time on practicing his basics and general fitness, because most of his exploits are combined out of several basic, versatile and reliable motions, and the other half on inventing new ways to outfox his enemies and rehearsing them until he can count on pulling them off without making a fool out of himself.

Dawson is one scary ex-convict of a street fighter. They say his tattoos were carved by his own hand. He never finishes a bottle without crushing it in hand into tiny, muscle-cutting glass slivers, and he makes it a point to always smile while doing so. He trains by simply pushing weights and pulling trucks, and he fights by getting real drunk first and then just kind of ignoring hits and being too strong to stop while he's mashing his fists into his opponent's face. Bob fought him once, and Bob's punches were faster and more accurate, sure, but Dawson didn't really seem to notice them — while Dawson's punches, primitive and slow as they were, mashed everything they hit like rotten apples. Poor Bob, it was really humiliating for him. That smartass Eric says Dawson hits so hard precisely 'cause he's not feeling pain — that a man's body is not supposed to exert too much strenght, lest it hurts itself, and Dawson's psyching himself up to do exactly that; Eric says he can beat Dawson by dodging long enough that his own pain and exhaustion catches up with him. I'd like to watch him try, but i know whom to bet on here.

Oh, Eric the street fighter? Honestly, the guy's not really the type for the job. It's the Internet, see? The guy's always reading, reading and reading, human body this and chinese martial techniques that, and then it all just gets to his head. He's a real sage on a lot of stuff nobody here cares about, but i believe he'd profit greatly from just learning how to throw a goddamn right hook for once, not just his flashy palm-strikes. Still, he's actually pretty good at using that head of his: he always spends his prep time analysing his opponent and the environment, like he's picking his moves in advance, then when it begins, he executes a premeditated plan, losing no time reacting to his opponent's moves because he already knows what he's gonna do next. You never know what to expect of him, with his weird-ass japanese sommersaults, yet when it's all over you realise it looked kinda like a dance, smooth transitions from stance to stance and all. One day, i saw him fight Bob and Clyde in a row; the way he fought Clyde was nothing like the way he fought Bob — different style, different moves, he clearly took his time to remember how to counter each of them properly. Aikido-style "using his own strenght against him" when he fought Bob, then when he was up against Clyde, he just went all-out hitting him with everything he had so quick that Clyde didn't have time to properly respond. I know Eric, though — he could only go this fast 'cause he already had a picture in his head of what goes after what. And there were times when i saw him at loss; when his plan goes wrong or he gets thrown off his rhythm, and he has to start anew, he tries to disengage and take some time to just stand here, not attacking, thinking over how to adjust his fighting style. Bloody versatile, his Internet-fed encyclopedic repertoire… Or was it "eclectic"? I always seem to confuse these two.

Look, it's getting late. Better continue tomorrow, or Ann will come and ask uncomfortable questions. Whaddya mean, who is Ann? Everyone knows Ann the street fighter. She's, like, the queen of the streets. There's no more dangerous street fighter in this city. She doesn't even work out, ever; she just comes to the church a lot. Then when she has to fight, she prays and makes offerings to her deity, and it blesses her with strenght of a thousand angels and ferocity of a thousand lions, or something like that; so then she grows twice in size, grows muscles like Dawson's and some shiny divine halo that makes her harder to hit than a broad side of a barn, conjures a bloody spiked chain — she says it's not bringing weapons to the fight 'cause she's not bringing it, her god is, and nobody's gonna tell a god what not to do — and goes to town. Sure, we'd disqualify her long ago, but we're afraid to make her angry. So just roll with it, okay? You won't like her when she's buffed.

[Swaoeaeieu]

Bob the street fighter used to have a glorious, if not well-paying, career as a boxer. Bob's father used to say: "If you want to live a long life, practice your right hook", and so Bob did. He knows how to throw it, he knows how to throw it really hard, and he knows how to throw it aplenty. His training regime is simple: swing a bag full of sand and rocks on a rope and punch it as it comes at you, so that your right hook stays mighty and practiced. Bob trusts his well-practiced right hook to be better and quicker than everyone else's — a perfect response to every conundrum — and if Devil himself will come tempt him in the middle of the night, he'll throw a fist first and wake up later. Bob's not all about simply being strong and tough, though — he's developed a secret technique as well; you haven't heard it from me, but Bob's secret battle technique is to sew lead weights into his boxing glove.

Clyde the street fighter, on the other hand, is well-versed in the rock-paper-scissorsy ways of the world; he knows you can be a one-trick pony or you can be a winning horse, but unless you're phenomenally good at your one trick — and Clyde knows he couldn't be that good — you have no business trying to be both. Clyde knows that some street fighters are just better, stronger, better prepared to fight him than he is — so he needs to adapt, he needs to be on a lookout for opportunities, and he needs to recognise their own weak point and use what they are least prepared to counter. They expect you to punch, you kick. They expect you to kick, you headbutt. They take a stable footing — you recognise that their footing is only as stable as the wooden floor they stand on, and you stomp really hard so it vibrates and you can catch them momentarily off-guard. Sand to the eyes and elbows to the back of the neck — sure, you can't just keep doing the same thing over and over again without working on creating a new opportunity for it, but even if you've only got to used it once, what really matters is that it worked. Clyde spends half his training time on practicing his basics and general fitness, because most of his exploits are combined out of several basic, versatile and reliable motions, and the other half on inventing new ways to outfox his enemies and rehearsing them until he can count on pulling them off without making a fool out of himself.

Dawson is one scary ex-convict of a street fighter. They say his tattoos were carved by his own hand. He never finishes a bottle without crushing it in hand into tiny, muscle-cutting glass slivers, and he makes it a point to always smile while doing so. He trains by simply pushing weights and pulling trucks, and he fights by getting real drunk first and then just kind of ignoring hits and being too strong to stop while he's mashing his fists into his opponent's face. Bob fought him once, and Bob's punches were faster and more accurate, sure, but Dawson didn't really seem to notice them — while Dawson's punches, primitive and slow as they were, mashed everything they hit like rotten apples. Poor Bob, it was really humiliating for him. That smartass Eric says Dawson hits so hard precisely 'cause he's not feeling pain — that a man's body is not supposed to exert too much strenght, lest it hurts itself, and Dawson's psyching himself up to do exactly that; Eric says he can beat Dawson by dodging long enough that his own pain and exhaustion catches up with him. I'd like to watch him try, but i know whom to bet on here.

Oh, Eric the street fighter? Honestly, the guy's not really the type for the job. It's the Internet, see? The guy's always reading, reading and reading, human body this and chinese martial techniques that, and then it all just gets to his head. He's a real sage on a lot of stuff nobody here cares about, but i believe he'd profit greatly from just learning how to throw a goddamn right hook for once, not just his flashy palm-strikes. Still, he's actually pretty good at using that head of his: he always spends his prep time analysing his opponent and the environment, like he's picking his moves in advance, then when it begins, he executes a premeditated plan, losing no time reacting to his opponent's moves because he already knows what he's gonna do next. You never know what to expect of him, with his weird-ass japanese sommersaults, yet when it's all over you realise it looked kinda like a dance, smooth transitions from stance to stance and all. One day, i saw him fight Bob and Clyde in a row; the way he fought Clyde was nothing like the way he fought Bob — different style, different moves, he clearly took his time to remember how to counter each of them properly. Aikido-style "using his own strenght against him" when he fought Bob, then when he was up against Clyde, he just went all-out hitting him with everything he had so quick that Clyde didn't have time to properly respond. I know Eric, though — he could only go this fast 'cause he already had a picture in his head of what goes after what. And there were times when i saw him at loss; when his plan goes wrong or he gets thrown off his rhythm, and he has to start anew, he tries to disengage and take some time to just stand here, not attacking, thinking over how to adjust his fighting style. Bloody versatile, his Internet-fed encyclopedic repertoire… Or was it "eclectic"? I always seem to confuse these two.

Look, it's getting late. Better continue tomorrow, or Ann will come and ask uncomfortable questions. Whaddya mean, who is Ann? Everyone knows Ann the street fighter. She's, like, the queen of the streets. There's no more dangerous street fighter in this city. She doesn't even work out, ever; she just comes to the church a lot. Then when she has to fight, she prays and makes offerings to her deity, and it blesses her with strenght of a thousand angels and ferocity of a thousand lions, or something like that; so then she grows twice in size, grows muscles like Dawson's and some shiny divine halo that makes her harder to hit than a broad side of a barn, conjures a bloody spiked chain — she says it's not bringing weapons to the fight 'cause she's not bringing it, her god is, and nobody's gonna tell a god what not to do — and goes to town. Sure, we'd disqualify her long ago, but we're afraid to make her angry. So just roll with it, okay? You won't like her when she's buffed.

and this is why fluff is fluff and crunch is the crunch. You can turn the fluff in a way that fits any rules. thank you for this perfect analogy, you have done well. Show this to your problem player, or just tell him fighters suck, it's what we do at our table.

[shuyung]

Classes are not equal, nor should they be. Some are easier, some are harder. Some are more powerful, some are less powerful. Along with this, is that not all classes should exist at the same time in the same space. When you look at the classes provided in the PHB, what you're seeing is, not a historically accurate picture, but a notionally faithful one, let's call it. When you imagine an adventuring environment based on myth, and legend, and folklore, what sort of things do you come up with? When you imagine an adventuring environment based on anime and manga, what do you come up with? These things are very different, and what overlap there may be tends to be minimal. As a DM, it's your responsibility (because it's your world) to make the decisions on what's there. Some games want fighters, some games want warblades, and a game that wants one shouldn't even be able to conceive of the existence of the other. D&D has tried to support however you may want to play. Unfortunately, people take this to mean that it does so simultaneously, when it doesn't.

As to how you explain to your player in character, that's fairly simple. You just say "What's a what?"

[Kelb_Panthera]

For swordsage, a bit of background info is needed.

The D&D worlds described by the books are absolutely -drowning- in magical power. It's to the point that simply being awesome enough can, rarely, cause a piece of non-magical or minimally magical but essential gear that you use to spontaneously convert into one of the more powerful and resilient forms of high-end magical gear (weapons of legacy) and, more often, into more standard magical gear (DMG2 bonded items). Two kinds of living dead (undead and deathless) walk the land, more often spontaneously than not. The souls-stuff of those yet unborn and those that have already passed can be harnessed and shaped into pseudo-magic items. There's a language of reality that allows someone with a skilled tongue to literally tell reality what to do. A musician that rocks hard enough can enthrall or empower those who hear his performance (bardic music and its variants) and there is, in fact, a magical music of such sublime nature as to have characters dedicate themselves wholly to simply seeking it out (seeker of the song). And all of this without ever taking the magic directly into yourself as do spellcasters (note that bardic casting isn't tied -directly- to bardic music).

A swordsage has simply learned the trick to prodding the ambient magical energies of the world with his weapons rather than his mind or his voice. Since the magic around him doesn't run out, he can poke it as often as his martial prowess allows. This is distinct from sorcerers or wizards that draw the magic into themselves, either by tapping the talent in their blood or by trapping it in their mind with complex arcane formulae, and form it into complex spells or a warlock who simply manipulates the magical energies flowing through him, thanks to his patrons' influence, into simple invocations.

Which brings us to the dichotomy of marital adepts vs standard martials. This is simply a matter of priority and differences in training.

A barbarian relies on his raw, natural instincts, conditioning, and some relatively simple weapons training. A ranger is a little more refined in his techniques but his training is divided between weapons, other mundane skills (the skill system), and his devotions to nature and the manipulation of divine magic. A fighter is wholly dedicated to his martial prowess but prioritizes absolutely mastering his techniques such that he can use them, practically without thought, at any time in any fight. Similar explanations account for the other dedicated martial classes.

A martial adept's dedication to his martial prowess is one of learning ever more complex but somewhat less reliable techniques. When they work, they really work but they require more particular footing, more precise timing, and are nearly impossible to perform multiple times in rapid succession. They're not something that requires -much- specialized training to simply perform (martial study/stance feats) but being able to use them repeatedly in the same engagement and learning large swathes of them does require more dedication to the sublime way.

That about cover it?

[Tohsaka Rin]

Yeah! Justification! Why do those dumb Monks get all those special powers, and slow falling, and-

Wait, this thread is about what?

[John Longarrow]

How do I handle it somewhat well? Currently I'm thinking that warblades fight in a certain battle trance which allows them to harness the natural rhythm of combat to defend themselves and attack better (INT to reflex, crits, flanking), while a fighter is a normal combatant that just perseveres in the chaos that is combat, and trying to use maneuvers while not being absolutely sure of their success would seem suicidal to them?

NB: no-one in the party is playing a Fighter or, in fact, anything lower than T3.

Out of character? Tell him "These are the rules of the game. If you don't like them or don't agree with them,. you don't have to play in our game which is being run by them"

In character? What has he done to figure it out? If his character really wants to learn, he's going to have to learn by taking martial lore.

From what you have described you have a toxic player. If you give him an option of playing by the rules or not playing, you should have a solution pretty quickly. If he's not willing to change his behavior to make the game fun for everyone then don't play with him.

[bean illus]

Out of character? Tell him "These are the rules of the game. If you don't like them or don't agree with them,. you don't have to play in our game which is being run by them"

In character? What has he done to figure it out? If his character really wants to learn, he's going to have to learn by taking martial lore.

From what you have described you have a toxic player. If you give him an option of playing by the rules or not playing, you should have a solution pretty quickly. If he's not willing to change his behavior to make the game fun for everyone then don't play with him.

Or just tell him that you're not smart enough, and don't have enough time to re-write 3.5, and that if he is you support him and would love to see his work when he is done. Until then maybe we could just play a game with these 50+ books here and use the rules that are written in them.

[OldTrees1]

Or just tell him that you're not smart enough, and don't have enough time to re-write 3.5, and that if he is you support him and would love to see his work when he is done. Until then maybe we could just play a game with these 50+ books here and use the rules that are written in them.

That is a better response. However it has the danger that they might return with a 3.5 rewrite.

[Particle_Man]

If you allow continuous use of cantrips you might want to look at the pathfinder srd to see how they adjust their lists (since pathfinder already allows continuous use of cantrips).

One notable change is that the 0-level spell "cure minor wounds" does not exist in Pathfinder (and I think continuous use of that would change the game, especially at low levels). Instead there is an "auto stabilize" cantrip.

[mabriss lethe]

Here's how I've dealt with that problem in my games.

"Magic is a powerful and mysterious force. Its deeper workings are shrouded in layers of secrecy and mystery. Though I hear from a reliable source that up in the mountains there's an old man who's spent his entire life studying just what you seek. Take care, though. Trappers have been seeing more goblin signs than usual for this time of year."

Translation:

"That's a good question, If you're really curious, here's a side quest you can go on that will tell you an in-game explanation for why we're doing things this way, but I'm not interrupting the game or further altering the design balance to suit you. Take it or leave it."

[Ignimortis]

Or just tell him that you're not smart enough, and don't have enough time to re-write 3.5, and that if he is you support him and would love to see his work when he is done. Until then maybe we could just play a game with these 50+ books here and use the rules that are written in them.

That's about what I tried to say initially. His first argument is that "that doesn't explain the facts in character", and recently he's tried to actually run some drafts by me, but I'm not sure if that's a whole rewrite or just throwing ideas at the wall and hoping some of them stick or even "well here's how I would do it but I won't really bother".


If you allow continuous use of cantrips you might want to look at the pathfinder srd to see how they adjust their lists (since pathfinder already allows continuous use of cantrips).

One notable change is that the 0-level spell "cure minor wounds" does not exist in Pathfinder (and I think continuous use of that would change the game, especially at low levels). Instead there is an "auto stabilize" cantrip.

CMW is an auto-stabilize (seems like I and the PF designers think somewhat alike), and I've gone through all the cantrips in the books I have and did ban or rewrite some (Create Water, Daze, Guidance). About 80% are left unchanged since they're either very simplistic or aren't changing much with multiple castings. The only thing that's changed is that the sorcerer can hold a torch aloft with Mage Hand and shoot a crossbow properly at the same time.


Classes are not equal, nor should they be. Some are easier, some are harder. Some are more powerful, some are less powerful. Along with this, is that not all classes should exist at the same time in the same space. When you look at the classes provided in the PHB, what you're seeing is, not a historically accurate picture, but a notionally faithful one, let's call it. When you imagine an adventuring environment based on myth, and legend, and folklore, what sort of things do you come up with? When you imagine an adventuring environment based on anime and manga, what do you come up with? These things are very different, and what overlap there may be tends to be minimal. As a DM, it's your responsibility (because it's your world) to make the decisions on what's there. Some games want fighters, some games want warblades, and a game that wants one shouldn't even be able to conceive of the existence of the other. D&D has tried to support however you may want to play. Unfortunately, people take this to mean that it does so simultaneously, when it doesn't.

As to how you explain to your player in character, that's fairly simple. You just say "What's a what?"

Well, the fact is that the world I'm running does have a place for a few warblades amongst its' fighters (who are an NPC class now) - there's no IC dichotomy, as I've been advised, though.
For instance, Royal Armsmaster is a warblade. He could probably take on ten royal guards alone and win. Yes, I could probably make him a fighter in his tens, but there's no reason to, if warblade 7-8 does it better, doesn't overinflate the HD nearly as much, and probably provides a much more interesting encounter if the party actually tries to fight him at one point. No one can actually say IC he's a warblade - he's just the Royal Armsmaster, who's rumored to have an affair with one of the high-standing noble's fencer daughter (the court probably couldn't resist all the swordplay puns) and is usually seen hacking practice targets apart or roaring drunk.



<snip>
That about cover it?


Yeah, it does. I've tried to express the same sentiment, but it seems I'm not that good with words to nail it exactly. Thank you.



<snip>

That was both hilarious and helpful. Thank you.


Here's how I've dealt with that problem in my games.

"Magic is a powerful and mysterious force. Its deeper workings are shrouded in layers of secrecy and mystery. Though I hear from a reliable source that up in the mountains there's an old man who's spent his entire life studying just what you seek. Take care, though. Trappers have been seeing more goblin signs than usual for this time of year."

Translation:

"That's a good question, If you're really curious, here's a side quest you can go on that will tell you an in-game explanation for why we're doing things this way, but I'm not interrupting the game or further altering the design balance to suit you. Take it or leave it."

That is part of what I'm going to do, yeah. Thanks.

[Lucas Yew]

The player in question played with Path of War just fine yet ranted on Tome of Battle? Thats... strange... :smallconfused:

[Dragonexx]

That's what I thought as well. Cure Minor Wounds, Create Water and Guidance are slightly unbalanced, but that's about it, yes. CMW is now an auto-stabilize, CWat is banned, and Guidance is a 1st-level spell with greater effect.

Honestly, I don't see the problem with at will healing. It's actually easier for me as a DM because now I can design adventures and encounters with the assumption that the PC's will be always at full health. I'd actually push for more at will abilities.

[Gruftzwerg]

At first, fighters can take up to 3 maneuvers via martial study and stances via Martial Stance.

It's not that they are denied to have maneuvers, it's just that they are not specialized in them. But he can get em with some of his dozen of fighter feats. So the fighter class gives some minor access to maneuvers.

If you want an interpretation of the situation:

The fighter is the more military soldier type, specializing in common warfare. And only grabbing a few secret techniques here and there.

The martial adept classes are more like a ninja, specialized in secret special attacks, defenses, blocks, magic & illusions produced by abusing enemy vision with movement and minor alchemy. Things like fire breathing techniques where a real deal in the past times.

How many regular fighters do you think did picked up such maneuvers? Only a few of them and even they aren't specialized. They just had luck to pick the secrets up somewhere somehow. Or a fighter could spent time to create/learn such maneuvers by himself, but he would still be limited (max 3 Martial Study) compared to some dedicated persons who completely abounds regular concepts of warfare and entirely specialize in such maneuvers (Swordsage, Warblade, Crusader).

[Dagroth]

In the real world, when Westerners encountered Eastern Martial Arts, many people considered them "Extra-ordinary" (breaking boards), "Supernatural" (walking on rice paper without leaving a mark), "Magical" (walking on hot coals without getting even minor burns), even "Impossible" (breaking multiple bricks or breaking a specific brick in a stack with one's bare hand).

And yet, it was all about the training.


On the other hand, tell the player that Tome of Battle was written precisely because the Fighter class just didn't work out well beyond a 1-2 level dip. Because the Paladin class needed a total re-write. Because Barbarians were just so one-dimensional.

One fix I would propose would be that Fighter should be an Initiator Class (full Initiator level) if you spend feats on Martial Study & Martial Stance. Give them a specific recovery mechanic somewhere between what Swordsages & Warblades get (and they can still get Adaptive Style).

Then, if you want, port some of the stuff Fighters get from Pathfinder back to 3.5 for the levels they don't get Feats.

[Metahuman1]

Ask him why Ju-jitsu practitioners spend so much time learning holds when Boxers, Wing Chun practitioners and Kempo practitioners spend it learning to punch.

Ask him why Savat practitioners spend so much time kicking when Southern Preying Mantis, Ju-jitsu and Judo practitioners spend so much time learning holds.

Ask him why Boxers spend so much time learning to punch when Tae-Kwon-Do, Savat and Cappowerha practitioner's spend so much time learning to kick.

Ask him why Escrema practitioners spend so much time learning to use weapons right to start when Kempo, Boxing, Judo and Wing Chun Practitioners usually take years to advance to learning weapons if they ever advance to it at all.




Because they fight differently.


If he still has a problem, tell him to go play 4th edition with another group since he obviously wants everyone to be the exact same all the time.

If he doesn't want that, ask why he's so invested in preserving caster supremacy that he's repeatedly derailing the game over a perceived threat to it that doesn't even stay in competition with it past level 7 or so at most.

[Sayt]

The way I figured that spells work IC is rhat in the case of a wizard, they memorize a specifc algorithm, which they activate by singing a song flapping their hands and doing some math pronouncing specific syllables, and gesturing just so, and in doing so, hacks reality

A sword sage or warblade is doing the same thin through a different, wholly somatic method. They step through a series of acts which has a (possibly) supernatural outcome.

That, or they achieve Royalty Through Division By The Blade of Want.