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NerdHut
2017-01-31, 05:33 AM
A few months back, I posted some houserules I was working on for a future campaign. Well, I'm still working on those rules, fine tuning them and whatnot. Before anyone complains about the caster level restriction, I asked my players, and they were okay with it back when I proposed a limit of 1/2 instead of the current 2/3.
I've made some tweaks based on the previous thread, but I've added/changed a lot since then, so I'd like some fresh perspective. I'm primarily asking for input on whether the rules I plan to put in place make sense as written, and to see if anyone has input on how to improve them. So without further ado, my rules (as of now) in the spoiler.
(The formatting suffers somewhat from the copy-paste into the forum, so it's been editted slightly for legibility)


Character Creation
Base Point-Buy – 25




LA +0 – 25


LA +1 – 15


LA +2 – 8
(EDIT: This has been bumped to 28, 18, 10, with the caveat that Ability Scores cannot be made higher than 17 via point-buy before applying Racial Modifiers)





```This point-buy is the only way I will provide to buy off Level Adjustment. Characters starting above Level 1 are not required to buy off their LA via point-buy, though they may choose to. Creatures with LA +3 or higher are not allowed for PCs.
```Some or all racial hit dice (RHD) may be waived. For some creatures, RHD are just no fun. This will be done on a case-by-case basis, though, so check with me first.
```Additionally, some races seem to have ridiculously high level adjustments. If you find a race you like that seems to fit that description, let me know and we'll discuss whether or not it should be modified.
Allowed Books




Player’s Handbook I


Dungeon Master’s Guide I


Monster Manual I


Arms and Equipment Guide


Magic Item Compendium



```Each player may choose one additional book from the approved list (other side of page) for their character’s creation and development. This does not unlock that book for other players. If that character dies or leaves the campaign, you may select a new book to replace your original choice. You may use d20srd.org as a guide, but it does not count as a source book. (EDIT: Increased to two books, instead of one)
```At the beginning of the campaign each Player Character will be level 1, with 400 gp. Characters starting after level 1 will use standard wealth by level.
```No Evil alignments. Unless you can make a truly compelling argument on why you should be allowed to be evil, this is a no-go. (EDIT: I've relaxed this to a soft-ban. Players will still need to make their case)
```Pick one Profession, Craft, or Perform skill. You begin play with 2 free ranks in it.
```No Psionics. This is a matter of keeping things simple. None of us have much experience with the psionics rules, so I’m leaving them out. Weapon and Armor enhancements based on psionics (like Collision) may still be allowed if they are simple. (EDIT: I'm not budging on this one. I want to know the mechanics of psionics before I add it in)
```You are limited to 3 classes in this campaign. Only one of your classes may be a prestige class. If your character retains RHD, they will not count against this limit.
```Everyone receives the effects of the Able Learner feat (cross-class skills cost one point per rank, except Speak Language; max ranks still apply). Rogues gain an additional 2 skill points per level to maintain their edge as skill monkeys.
```This is less a rule, more a reminder. Paladins don’t need to be ********s. They uphold an ideal, not inflict it (except upon their enemies, of course). When they’re not actively questing, they’re not forcing the townspeople to convert. Don’t think of the crazy preacher baptizing unwitting passersby, think of that born-again guy at the party who won’t shut up about how he spent his summer building huts in the 3rd world, and how it was so great, you guys.
```Feats and Ability Score increases will be gained based on Effective Character Level, not total Hit Dice.
```Clerics are proficient with their deity's favored weapon, but must still select the War domain to gain Weapon Focus as a bonus feat.
```In general, deities and their domains may be chosen from otherwise unallowed books. You could then be a cleric of Aym without choosing Races of Stone as your bonus book.

Homebrewed Classes
```Some classes have been tweaked beyond what is mentioned on this sheet. I am also making available a homebrew class. Ask me for the full details if you are interested in playing the following classes: Barbarian, Fighter, Monk, Paladin, Rogue, Witch. (EDIT: I've included a little detail on this below the spoiler now)

General
```In general, the party will level up every few sessions. If you defeat a major boss, you might level up early. If you mess around too much, leveling up will take longer. With our long sessions, if we used standard XP, we’d end up leveling up almost every week. I don’t want that for this campaign.
```Some supplies are assumed as part of your gear. You need not purchase a bedroll, waterskin, rations, or backpack.
```The weight of coins won’t be tracked, but the quantity of coins will. If you’re at a toll bridge with a toll of 5 cp, and all you have is platinum, and there is no coin exchange nearby, you’ll be paying in platinum. When in town, you may exchange coins freely.
```Material component rules are in effect. Take this into consideration when choosing spells.
```Light, Medium, and Heavy loads will not be tracked individually. Only worry about maximum carry weight.
```Inappropriately sized weapons can be wielded without the -2 penalty, so long as the effort required to wield it is not outside of physical limits. As such, a large creature may use a small greatsword as a light weapon, and a small creature may use a medium dagger as a one-handed weapon. But a medium creature may not wield a large halberd, even at a penalty. The Monkey Grip feat will, however, allow you to wield weapons one size larger than normal, but will still incur the -2 penalty. (EDIT: Monkey Grip won't have the penalty)
```All mounts of any kind must have names before being allowed to enter any desert region.
```In the past, I have ruled that a charge will get past a creature with reach’s attack of opportunity. I’m no longer using that rule, as it negates a portion of the threat that a large creature should possess.
```Rolling a natural 20 on an attack roll is always a hit. Weapons with increased threat ranges do not automatically hit on a threat. Rolling a 19 with a longsword would still need to be a high enough roll to hit your opponent’s AC to be a hit. Your confirmation roll on a threat is automatically the same as your attack roll. (EDIT: More context below the spoiler)
```Standard Action attacks may be multiple attacks. You may perform one attack at your highest Base Attack Bonus OR you may perform as many attacks as you normally can during a Full Attack action, but all these attacks are at your lowest Base Attack Bonus. For example, a 16th level barbarian may make a standard action attack as a single attack at +16, or as four attacks at +1/+1/+1/+1. Attacks of Opportunity are not effected by this rule. (EDIT: Upon some helpful input, I've modified this to a -5 to hit penalty, resulting in +11/+6/+1/-4. The idea is to increase opportunity to hit, but at the cost of accuracy)
```Natural Ones will not result in a fumble roll. It fails to make combat more fun.
```When rolling hit points, re-roll any natural 1s. Keep rolling until you get a 2 or higher. If I see you roll a natural 1 on hit points three consecutive times, I’ll give you max hit points for the level, just to spite the gods of dice.
```Initiative Rolls may be made using DEX or WIS. DEX works fine as a reflexive reaction. But if you detect a danger sooner, you can act sooner. Hence, WIS (your sensory stat) on initiative.
```If the party’s full rest is interrupted by an encounter which lasts only a short period of time, it will still count as a full rest. Casters, don’t worry.

Full-casters
```Classes that grant full caster progression (they get 9th level spells by level 20) are required to multiclass in this campaign. Full casters are less common in this world than settings like Faerûn, and as such will only exist as occasional non-player characters. When leveling up or building a caster, to determine how many levels you may have in any given class, use the accompanying “Casting Class Level Cap Equation” section. Prestige classes that increase your spell progression in another class will count against this cap as if it were the same class it advances. As such, a Wizard 5/Red Wizard 5 build would violate this rule. However, a Cleric 5/Druid 5 build would not.

New/Changed Feats




Bardic Specialty: Gain +4 to Bardic Knowledge checks made in place of a specific Knowledge check (such as Geography)


Cleave gives the effect of Great Cleave. It also counts as such for prerequisites.


Combat Expertise is no longer a prerequisite for any other feat.


Dodge grants a flat +1 dodge bonus to AC, not just against one enemy, and grants the effect of Mobility. It also counts as such for prerequisites.


Each of the feats which grant +2 to 2 skills instead grant +3.


Far Shot and Precise Shot are combined into one feat: Incredible Aim, which counts as both for prerequisites.


Hair Trigger Reflexes: Requires Improved Initiative, DEX 15+. Once per day, you may skip rolling initiative, and instead get an initiative result of the current highest plus one. If two characters have this feat, they roll initiative against each other.


Item Creation Feats: XP isn't used in crafting. We're not using XP anyway, but even if we were to switch to it, XP still won't be used.


Leadership: Still requires level 6 or higher. Your Leadership Score is you ECL+CHA (this includes negative CHA). You can recruit a single cohort of a level up to ¾ your leadership score, capped at your ECL-1. You may pick what type of cohort you would like, but cohorts will be designed by the DM (which is me).


Multitalented: Pick two skills to always have as class skills.


Natural Spell is not allowed in this campaign. Druids already have so much going on without it, they don't need to be a Lightning-summoning Lion, too.


Skill Focus grants +4 to the chosen skill.


Toughness grants one hit point per Hit Die



Improved Toughness requires Toughness and instead grants +1 to natural armor (stacks with itself) (EDIT: Changed to +2 hp per HD, but can't be taken more than once)





Two-Handed Power Strike: Requires Power Attack and STR 15+. Add two and a half times your strength modifier to damage rolls made with two-handed weapons.


Two-Weapon Fighting tree is consolidated. Taking the feat "Two-Weapon Fighting" automatically grants these abilities when the prerequisites are met:



Reduce penalties to attacks upon taking feat


Your off-hand weapon grants +1 Shield AC


With 15 DEX, you may use an off-hand attack on attacks of opportunity.


With +6 BAB and 15 DEX, you gain a second off-hand attack on a full attack.


With +11 BAB and 17 DEX, you gain a third off-hand attack on a full attack.




Weapon Focus now applies to weapons with a certain damage type (e.g., Slashing), rather that one weapon. This change applies to the rest of the feats in this tree.



```Power Attack, Simple Weapon Proficiency, and Weapon Finesse need not be selected. Their effects are granted to all characters who meet their prerequisites.

Approved Book Choices



Complete Adventurer


Complete Arcane


Complete Champion


Complete Divine


Complete Mage


Complete Scoundrel


Complete Warrior


Frostburn


Heroes of Battle


Masters of the Wild


Miniatures Handbook


Monster Manual II


Monster Manual III


Monster Manual IV


Monster Manual V


Oriental Adventures


Players Handbook II


Races of Destiny


Races of Eberron


Races of Stone


Races of the Dragon


Races of the Wild


Sandstorm


Savage Species


Spell Compendium (EDIT: Removed, at least for the moment, as it favors all casters more than any other book favors other classes)



Stormwrack


Stronghold Builder’s Guidebook


Unearthed Arcana




```I will allow for some flexibility in source books. If, as a druid, you would like an animal companion from another source book, that may be approved, so long as it isn’t game-breaking or ridiculous. Just check.

```If you would instead like to use a homebrewed class or race, let me know and we may be able to work something out. Especially if it’s just a variation on something well established.

Casting Class Level Cap Equation
```The maximum caster level you may have in any given full-casting class (before applying bonuses from feats and abilities) is capped based upon your level. You are allowed to be at a caster level (C) equal to two-thirds your level (L), plus one, rounded down. You may have two casting classes, but neither one may exceed this limit.

C ≤ (L*2/3)+1, round down




Character
Level



Max Caster
Level






Character Level



Max Caster Level





1


1






11


8




2


2






12


9




3


3






13


9




4


3






14


10




5


4






15


11




6


5






16


11




7


5






17


12




8


6






18


13




9


7






19


13




10


7






20


14








A few things to clarify for future posts:

-The classes listed in the homebrewed section have been modified and are still subject to slight changes. Long story short: Barbarian, Monk, and Rogue have been tweaked to hold up a little better compared to other classes. Paladin has had Detect Evil and Smite Evil slightly tweaked, based on things that are specific to my group's play-style. Fighters have been overhauled, inspired partly by Pathfinder's version. Witch is based on the example homebrew class found in the DMG.

-The group I play with formed before I started playing. So far, if you rolled an attack roll anywhere in your threat range, it was an auto-crit. I didn't realize that wasn't how RAW made it work until after the first game I DM'd. The houserule for Crits may seem overpowered, but it's a downgrade from what we've been doing.

-The No-Evil rule is based on how my players play evil characters, not how I play them.

-The total class limit is in place to keep certain styles of builds from emerging. I'm trying to balance min-max players with RP players here, and if the min-max players can get two prestige classes, they're going to destroy competition while the RP players have to sit on the sidelines.

(Edited to further add: Thank you for the slightly-short-of-brutal critiquing I've received so far. I typically don't take criticism well, which I hope hasn't shown through to much in my replies, but I need it in order to get things nailed down correctly. I can't improve without constructive criticism.)

eggynack
2017-01-31, 07:01 AM
The Monkey Grip feat will, however, allow you to wield weapons one size larger than normal, but will still incur the -2 penalty.
Should probably just ditch the penalty full on. Monkey grip kinda sucks. A lot.


Rolling a natural 20 on an attack roll is always a hit. Weapons with increased threat ranges do not automatically hit on a threat. Rolling a 19 with a longsword would still need to be a high enough roll to hit your opponent’s AC to be a hit. Your confirmation roll on a threat is automatically the same as your attack roll.
Pretty sure all of this is just normal rules, not house rules.


Standard Action attacks may be multiple attacks. You may perform one attack at your highest Base Attack Bonus OR you may perform as many attacks as you normally can during a Full Attack action, but all these attacks are at your lowest Base Attack Bonus. For example, a 16th level barbarian may make a standard action attack as a single attack at +16, or as four attacks at +1/+1/+1/+1. Attacks of Opportunity are not effected by this rule.
I really dislike the construction of this. You've set it up so that transitioning from +15 to +16 BAB moves you from +5/+5/+5 to your +1/+1/+1/+1. Not in the mood to do the math, but that looks a whole lot weaker. Moreover, this capacity is strictly bounded upwards at +5, which has to struggle to hit at higher levels, which means it's generally getting weaker and weaker as you progress. And, on top of that, it could probably stand to get an upgrade in a more general sense. Shouldn't be the only option, but you're presumably trying to make pounce a solid but not needed choice, and this doesn't seem good enough to do that. I'd advise, say, a flat -4 to all attacks, bounded below by the weakest iterative you have. So, +6 would become +2/+1, and +16 would become +12/+7/+2/+1. Maybe it's too clearly better than a normal standard attack, but that's honestly part of the point. Normal standard attacks suck way too much.


Improved Toughness requires Toughness and instead grants +1 to natural armor (stacks with itself)
This could stand to be quite a bit stronger.

Shadowquad
2017-01-31, 07:04 AM
Hello,

Your authorized rulebooks suggest that you play 3.5, but you talk about Witch as a base class, which I think is Pathfinder only, would you mind to enlighten us ?

Otherwise, there are a few points that I may disagree with:

- No evil characters: It is reasonable if your campaign is exalted, but I personally think that a flat ban on evil characters is a loss for the PC group dynamic. Paladins should not play scry-and-die, and CE sorcerers are not compelled to burn every village in their path. Depending on your players, characters of opposite alignment should be able to cooperate toward a common goal. However, I insist that it is merely a personal opinion.

- Critical confirmation roll equal to original roll: This is mostly automatic confirmation for martial classes. Expect lots of crits, especially with your buff on two-weapon fighting. Scimitars dual wielders will dish out tons of damage.

- Caster level cap: While your system seems to correctly nerf the power of base spellcasting classes, it still allows prestige classes to reach 9th level spells. I am thinking about Sublime Chord and Ur Priest among the authorized books, but there may be others. Also, it technically nerfs warlocks, who eventually get to cast 9th level equivalent invocations, and it seems unfair to nerf them.

Zombimode
2017-01-31, 07:11 AM
Points that I don't care about or like I have left uncommented.



[/FONT][SPOILER=Rules Sheet Text]
Character Creation
Base Point-Buy – 25




LA +0 – 25


LA +1 – 15


LA +2 – 8


That's quite a stingy PointBuy. Personally, I would no bother to create a warrior type character or other character that depend on more then 2 stats (including con).
Which would be a shame since I enjoy playing warrior-types.
In my experience, stingy Point buys will increase the drive to min-max. Is that the intended effect? What is the reasoning behind the low pointbuy?
I would also not bother with LA races, but I probably wouldn't anyway. Your rules would make me even less inclined to choose a LA race.



Allowed Books
[/LEFT]

[LIST]

Player’s Handbook I


Dungeon Master’s Guide I


Monster Manual I


Arms and Equipment Guide


Magic Item Compendium


[LEFT] ```Each player may choose one additional book from the approved list (other side of page) for their character’s creation and development. This does not unlock that book for other players. If that character dies or leaves the campaign, you may select a new book to replace your original choice. You may use d20srd.org as a guide, but it does not count as a source book.

Ok, lets recap: what classes are the least affected by low point buy? Wizard, Druid, Sorcerer.
What classes are (by far) the least affected by being restricted to core + one book? Wizard, Cleric, Druid, Sorcerer.
What classes are the least affected by reduced caster levels? Druid.
What classes can easily gain something useful by multiclassing? Of the above? Druid.

I'm playing a Druid then.
Are thought trains like this what you had intended by your houserules?

There is also the slight difference in access to resources for casters compared to non-casters if one of the allowed books in the SpellCompendium.
I mean, PHB + SC is almost the same for a wizard as All Books Open would be.
While PHB + say Complete Warrior is nothing like All Books Open for a Fighter.


```No Psionics. This is a matter of keeping things simple. None of us have much experience with the psionics rules, so I’m leaving them out. Weapon and Armor enhancements based on psionics (like Collision) may still be allowed if they are simple.
Psionics are not any more complicated then normal arcane or divine magic. Powers and spells are almost identical anyway.
You, the DM, doesn't have to use psionic material if you don't want to.
Prohibiting a player to do so on the grounds of Psionics being "too complex" is condescending. Just trust me that I, as a player, will know about the rules concering the abilities of my character.


```You are limited to 3 classes in this campaign. Only one of your classes may be a prestige class. If your character retains RHD, they will not count against this limit.
Reason?
It would rarely effect my character buils, but if it would, the limit would feel completely arbitrary.


Homebrewed Classes
```Some classes have been tweaked beyond what is mentioned on this sheet. I am also making available a homebrew class. Ask me for the full details if you are interested in playing the following classes: Barbarian, Fighter, Monk, Paladin, Rogue, Witch.

Well, my evaluation off your houserules are of course based on the base versions of these classes since this is all what I have at my disposal.


```Light, Medium, and Heavy loads will not be tracked individually. Only worry about maximum carry weight.
I prefer tracked encumbrance, even only loosely, but whatever.


```All mounts of any kind must have names before being allowed to enter any desert region.
That's... an odly specific rule.


```Rolling a natural 20 on an attack roll is always a hit. Weapons with increased threat ranges do not automatically hit on a threat. Rolling a 19 with a longsword would still need to be a high enough roll to hit your opponent’s AC to be a hit. Your confirmation roll on a threat is automatically the same as your attack roll.
Soo... you're effectively removing confirming rolls, right? I have some trouble understanding this rule.


```Standard Action attacks may be multiple attacks. You may perform one attack at your highest Base Attack Bonus OR you may perform as many attacks as you normally can during a Full Attack action, but all these attacks are at your lowest Base Attack Bonus. For example, a 16th level barbarian may make a standard action attack as a single attack at +16, or as four attacks at +1/+1/+1/+1. Attacks of Opportunity are not effected by this rule.
It ads an option that is not clearly better than the other available options. Thats makes it good in my book.

```Natural Ones will not result in a fumble roll. It fails to make combat more fun.
Not a houserule.

```When rolling hit points, re-roll any natural 1s. Keep rolling until you get a 2 or higher. If I see you roll a natural 1 on hit points three consecutive times, I’ll give you max hit points for the level, just to spite the gods of dice.
Whats the reason for rolling for HP in the first place?
It is quite a terrible practice in my view since hit points persist over the course of one characters life. That makes them a very bad place for randomness.


Full-casters
```Classes that grant full caster progression (they get 9th level spells by level 20) are required to multiclass in this campaign. Full casters are less common in this world than settings like Faerûn, and as such will only exist as occasional non-player characters. When leveling up or building a caster, to determine how many levels you may have in any given class, use the accompanying “Casting Class Level Cap Equation” section. Prestige classes that increase your spell progression in another class will count against this cap as if it were the same class it advances. As such, a Wizard 5/Red Wizard 5 build would violate this rule. However, a Cleric 5/Druid 5 build would not.
This is something I would be interessted in trying. It is another aspect of your houserules that favor Druids as they are not quite as reliant on their spellcasting as other full casters.


All in all, why the overly restrictive nature?
This only fosters min-maxing and a pushes players to classes like druid.

And somehow I get the impression this is the opposite of what you are trying to accomplish with your houserules.

NerdHut
2017-01-31, 07:12 AM
Should probably just ditch the penalty full on. Monkey grip kinda sucks. A lot.
Sounds reasonable enough. I'll probably modify that.


Pretty sure all of this is just normal rules, not house rules.
It's very close to RAW, except for the automatic result on the confirmation roll. We've been playing that if you roll in the threat range, it's automatically a critical hit, which is a bit messed up. I included the full clarification so I don't have to dig out the right page in the PHB every time it comes up.


I really dislike the construction of this. You've set it up so that transitioning from +15 to +16 BAB moves you from +5/+5/+5 to your +1/+1/+1/+1. Not in the mood to do the math, but that looks a whole lot weaker. Moreover, this capacity is strictly bounded upwards at +5, which has to struggle to hit at higher levels, which means it's generally getting weaker and weaker as you progress. And, on top of that, it could probably stand to get an upgrade in a more general sense. Shouldn't be the only option, but you're presumably trying to make pounce a solid but not needed choice, and this doesn't seem good enough to do that. I'd advise, say, a flat -4 to all attacks, bounded below by the weakest iterative you have. So, +6 would become +2/+1, and +16 would become +12/+7/+2/+1. Maybe it's too clearly better than a normal standard attack, but that's honestly part of the point. Normal standard attacks suck way too much.
This is one of the ones I was worried about. I'll try running some calculations to see how things balance out. The idea is to leave Pounce as the superior option without leaving other martial characters with terrible combat options.


This could stand to be quite a bit stronger.
I can't say I disagree. Would you recommend increasing the bonus, or making it another hit point-based feat?

eggynack
2017-01-31, 07:20 AM
I can't say I disagree. Would you recommend increasing the bonus, or making it another hit point-based feat?
I would tend towards HP, as the AC space seems largely filled by dodge.

Tohsaka Rin
2017-01-31, 07:30 AM
That's... an odly specific rule.


It's to stop any 'horse with no name' jokes/singing.

Seconding the questioning of 'why no psionics?' here. Psionics is essentially magic, but choosing how much gas to burn. On average (roughly, rule of thumb) you get about as many dice of damage, as you put points into the power you're casting.

A psion is more efficient than other casters, in the long run, but more limited when it comes to meta-psionics, since you normally have to expend your psionic focus to activate a meta feat (and spend extra power points, too), and it's costly to be able to get a second focus (two or three feats), and still costs actions to do so.

The 'one extra book per player, tied to the player' is... Kind of unfair. If someone wants to play a melee class, they're kind of hosed, compared to the stuff CoD can do out of core. Melee doesn't get a lot of nice things as it is, and they really need all the books they can in order to pull their weight, or let the players have fun. Meanwhile, Wizards, Clerics, and Druics (all core, go figure) can pick basically any spell in the game, functionally at-will. The fighter? Sorry, you're stuck with feats that you can't change, without time-consuming retraining, that you won't have access to, unless you pick the book that has that variant rule in it. Good luck, chump/fighter!

NerdHut
2017-01-31, 07:30 AM
All in all, why the overly restrictive nature?
This only fosters min-maxing and a pushes players to classes like druid.

And somehow I get the impression this is the opposite of what you are trying to accomplish with your houserules.

To clarify, some of the rules included in the list are reverting from previous house rules (such as the confirmation rolls. We previously had too many auto-crits).

I considered instead of taking out Natural Spell, making a druid use either spellcasting OR wildshape. Serious question, not being facetious: do you think that would be a good option?

The point-buy isn't set in stone, but the drastic drop in points based on LA is deliberate. It's to reduce the overuse of monster PCs. I'm not saying they're bad, but it doesn't suit my DM style. I included a clause of reducing LA by DM discretion so a player can more easily play certain races depending on their build.
You're correct in guessing this is meant to limit min-maxing, but I haven't found anything that would solve that issue that I find satisfactory. I have considered the possibility of raising the point-buy a little, but placing limits on how high each ability score can be before racial modifiers.

The class number restriction is due to my "Cheese Aficianado" players. Both of them tend to stack prestige classes whenever possible. That leads to high-powered campaigns, while I prefer low-powered ones.


Hello,

Your authorized rulebooks suggest that you play 3.5, but you talk about Witch as a base class, which I think is Pathfinder only, would you mind to enlighten us ?

Otherwise, there are a few points that I may disagree with:

- No evil characters: It is reasonable if your campaign is exalted, but I personally think that a flat ban on evil characters is a loss for the PC group dynamic. Paladins should not play scry-and-die, and CE sorcerers are not compelled to burn every village in their path. Depending on your players, characters of opposite alignment should be able to cooperate toward a common goal. However, I insist that it is merely a personal opinion.

- Critical confirmation roll equal to original roll: This is mostly automatic confirmation for martial classes. Expect lots of crits, especially with your buff on two-weapon fighting. Scimitars dual wielders will dish out tons of damage.

The no evil characters ruling is a soft ban. I have enough inter-party conflict with chaotic and lawful characters. Add in Evil (which a few of my players seem to think means SLAUGHTER EVERYTHING) and I've got nothing but headaches.

The critical confirmation change is actually a downgrade from what we've been playing. The group has been doing "roll in your threat range and it's automatically a crit" since before I joined. I figured I'd ease them into the standard rule slowly.

Tohsaka Rin
2017-01-31, 07:43 AM
Honestly, if you're having problems with players not being able to tone it down, and you want to run a lower-powered game, you should run a lower-powered game.

Don't stack on a hundred houserules, just reduce all exp to 10%, or play E6, or kill exp entirely, and just level the players characters ever few sessions.

Barring all of that? Just ask your players to submit their builds ahead of time, for you to okay first.

*Cough cough, look at my other post, cough.*

NerdHut
2017-01-31, 07:51 AM
Honestly, if you're having problems with players not being able to tone it down, and you want to run a lower-powered game, you should run a lower-powered game.

Don't stack on a hundred houserules, just reduce all exp to 10%, or play E6, or kill exp entirely, and just level the players characters ever few sessions.

Barring all of that? Just ask your players to submit their builds ahead of time, for you to okay first.

*Cough cough, look at my other post, cough.*

The 'one extra book per player, tied to the player' is... Kind of unfair. If someone wants to play a melee class, they're kind of hosed, compared to the stuff CoD can do out of core. Melee doesn't get a lot of nice things as it is, and they really need all the books they can in order to pull their weight, or let the players have fun. Meanwhile, Wizards, Clerics, and Druics (all core, go figure) can pick basically any spell in the game, functionally at-will. The fighter? Sorry, you're stuck with feats that you can't change, without time-consuming retraining, that you won't have access to, unless you pick the book that has that variant rule in it. Good luck, chump/fighter!

We've been doing E6. My min-maxers found a way to pummel "level-appropriate" encounters anyway.

Short of completely banning the casters (which 1, I don't want to do, and 2, would throw many other things out of whack), I'm not entirely sure how else I'm supposed to keep casters from owning the game automatically, while leaving them playable. My players optimize casters by pulling from all sorts of obscure sources, but seem to play less magic characters straight. Don't ask me why, but that's what they do.

Zombimode
2017-01-31, 08:09 AM
I considered instead of taking out Natural Spell, making a druid use either spellcasting OR wildshape. Serious question, not being facetious: do you think that would be a good option?

Not really. The wildshape side leaves the class with huge gaps of dead Levels.
Druid without wildshape on the other Hand would be ok.


The point-buy isn't set in stone, but the drastic drop in points based on LA is deliberate.
I'm more concerned about the General low Point buy.
I made fine experiences with 28 PB, but really wouldn't go lower. Nowadays I always run with 32 PB which is usually enough to make any character.
Remember: there are diminishing Returns for SAD classes for higher PB values. For the 7 additional Points from 25 PB to 32 PB a SAD character can increase the main stat by 2 (like from 18 to 20) and has 1 Point to spare. A MAD character on the other Hand can increase one stat from total nothingness (8) to someting reasonable (14) which can be the deciding difference if the character is actually playable or not.


The class number restriction is due to my "Cheese Aficianado" players. Both of them tend to stack prestige classes whenever possible. That leads to high-powered campaigns, while I prefer low-powered ones.


While I can understand your concern, the houserules you have Chosen are ill-suited for this intent.

The most important Thing to note is that Players inclined to min-max will do so regardless or even more so. They will pick their spells even more carefully as to migitate the loss in power due to reduced caster Levels. They will construct their characters with even more care to Offset the loss in power.
Other Players like me for instance who normally Play characters like Hexblades or Knights and try to create reasonbly useful and fun to Play characters out of These less then ideal bases drawing on he full wealth of Options for D&D 3.5 will be pushed form such ideas and more towards classes like wizard and druid.
And players who do not optimize will continue not optimizing and thus suck even more.

If you don't like high-power, Play E6.

If you have a Problem with some Players optimizing too much, try to fix those Problems without touching the game rules. Because the actual Problems do not lie within the rules but between the participants of the game.

The best houserules I have seen for D&D 3.5 either do not contain "Balance" fixes at all, or contain only enhancements to "weaker" classes.
Nerfs, in my experience, rarely if ever achieve what their intended effect.

Zombimode
2017-01-31, 08:17 AM
Short of completely banning the casters (which 1, I don't want to do, and 2, would throw many other things out of whack), I'm not entirely sure how else I'm supposed to keep casters from owning the game automatically, while leaving them playable.

But here is the issue: casters do not actually "own" the game automactically.
They do so if the players only if the Players actively intend to "own".

Like I said, this is a problem not to be solved within the rules.

If anything, the experience that your Players where able to "break" even E6 should be telling you that putting on restrictions is not doing anything.

NerdHut
2017-01-31, 08:30 AM
If anything, the experience that your Players where able to "break" even E6 should be telling you that putting on restrictions is not doing anything.

Good point. I've been tweaking my copy of the rule set as the thread evolves. I've mostly eased restrictions so far. Some of the restrictions are based on the style of game I prefer to play, though. I don't like the infinite splatbook approach, for instance.

I think I'll have a chat with the min-maxers about not deliberately outshining the others. Controlling that has been one of my shortcomings as a DM (But hey, I'm still kinda new). Since everyone seems to agree that 25 is too low (the Elite Array fits in a 25 point allotment), I've bumped it up to 28 with the caveat that no ability score can exceed 17 via point buy before racial modifiers. I know I can alleviate that through conversation, but having it hard-wired into the rules I think works to the same end.

noce
2017-01-31, 09:04 AM
I like how you tried to put back to relevance mundane classes wrt caster classes.
I especially like consolidating feat chains like TWF, well done.

There's a thing I would change, however.
You're limited to three classes total, only one of them can be a PrC. Among the core books only DMG has PrCs, and they're quite few. Moreover, if you're a caster, you've to multiclass somehow.
Let's see how your rules affect different classes:

If I want to play a Beguiler, my book of choice has to be PHB II, which does not contain PrCs.
I will have to multiclass with another core class and, if I want to take a prestige class, I'm stuck with DMG. In addition, I can only play as a core race.

I could play a Cleric/Wizard/Mystic Theurge, getting 14/20 on both sides of casting, and still be able to take Spell Compendium, or another book for a particular race.

I see the book limitation being heavier on non-core classes, in other words. It could be intended, though.

EDIT: you edited your rules, I see.

johnbragg
2017-01-31, 09:19 AM
It probably should have been mentioned a lot sooner that you're running E6. Combined with the full-caster-multiclassing mandate, you're limiting the players to second-level spells.

Or are these rules designed for the next, non-E6 campaign? It takes a significant amount of cheese to break E6. If players are taking "too many" prestige classes in E6, that requires DM fiat to ignore some prestige class entry requirements. If players are splatbook diving to find the optimal monster of ECL 5 to slap a class level on--you allowed that.

Bigger issue: You and your players are trying to play different games.


My players optimize casters by pulling from all sorts of obscure sources, but seem to play less magic characters straight. Don't ask me why, but that's what they do.

So tell them that cheese is allowed for martials, but not for casters. And/or decide on one caster-nerfing mechanic. Maybe Tier One casters drop to the Bard spells/day table. Maybe Tier One casters have 2E style limits on their spellbooks (maybe one spell/level per point of INT/WIS/CHA)--that would limit the number of spells you need to adjudicate, study the details of, and maybe ban.

Oh, and I admire the work you put into having a specified rule to prevent Horse With No Name jokes. However, the existence of such a rule practically guarantees those jokes during Session Zero as you review the rules.

NerdHut
2017-01-31, 09:32 AM
It probably should have been mentioned a lot sooner that you're running E6. Combined with the full-caster-multiclassing mandate, you're limiting the players to second-level spells.

Or are these rules designed for the next, non-E6 campaign? It takes a significant amount of cheese to break E6. If players are taking "too many" prestige classes in E6, that requires DM fiat to ignore some prestige class entry requirements. If players are splatbook diving to find the optimal monster of ECL 5 to slap a class level on--you allowed that.

Bigger issue: You and your players are trying to play different games.



So tell them that cheese is allowed for martials, but not for casters. And/or decide on one caster-nerfing mechanic. Maybe Tier One casters drop to the Bard spells/day table. Maybe Tier One casters have 2E style limits on their spellbooks (maybe one spell/level per point of INT/WIS/CHA)--that would limit the number of spells you need to adjudicate, study the details of, and maybe ban.

Oh, and I admire the work you put into having a specified rule to prevent Horse With No Name jokes. However, the existence of such a rule practically guarantees those jokes during Session Zero as you review the rules.

E6 is what I'm currently running. The next campaign won't be E6.

I'm aware that they're trying to play differently, hence the problem. But I like hanging out with them, so I'm trying to find a way to remedy the problem.

Come session 0, I'll basically be going eagle-eye looking for what level of cheese content each build has. I'll look into the 2E casting mechanic, but since my players are okay with the caster level limitation, I think I'll be sticking with it.

The Horse With No Name rule is there because I like the joke. It flew over some of the players' head so fast I think it might have given them bald spots, but it amuses me so I'm keeping it.

lord_khaine
2017-01-31, 09:52 AM
I considered instead of taking out Natural Spell, making a druid use either spellcasting OR wildshape. Serious question, not being facetious: do you think that would be a good option?

Im not certain thats really needed. Your already more or less screwing wildshape over by only allowing ½ Druid level. Thats going to put a serious limit on the HD cap.


The Horse With No Name rule is there because I like the joke. It flew over some of the players' head so fast I think it might have given them bald spots, but it amuses me so I'm keeping it.

I would have named my horse/camel "No Name"... :smallamused:

Else, generally it looks like reasonable rules.
I understand the desire for wanting to know the rules of psionics personally. But would second the suggestion that its so close to normal magic it might very well just be a seperate spell list.

And can also see that Tome of Battle is not on the allowed list?

NerdHut
2017-01-31, 10:02 AM
I would have named my horse/camel "No Name"... :smallamused:

I'd be tempted to awaken the dang thing and have it name a city after itself out on the western coast during a gold rush (Paint Your Wagon references, anyone?)


And can also see that Tome of Battle is not on the allowed list?

The majority of the table aren't fans of Tome of Battle (myself included), and the rest doesn't care one way or another. It's another personal choice rather than a strict mechanical one.