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Quertus
2017-01-31, 12:01 PM
So, I've got a problem, and I'm wondering if anyone has any advice for me.

I'm old-school. Usually, I just go with the flow of whatever the GM has prepared. But, sometimes, there's a particular itch I'd like to scratch. But every time I've ever tried to make a request of a GM regarding... story elements, how I'd like my character to contribute to the game, whatever... it has always gone badly. It doesn't matter the GM, it doesn't matter the system, it always results in Epic Fail.

Ask for exploration, getting a chance to explore the cool setting/world? Get stuck in one city, fighting bandits. For the entire campaign.

Ask to get to craft items? GM makes my crafting impossible, and just hands the party items better than I am trying to craft.

Ask to try to earn something the GM tries to just give me? Well, this particular scenario occurred under several GMs, but their responses included quitting the game, and conspiring with another character to kill my character off.

Ask to get to find missions for the party? Get handed missions the party would never accept.

Ask to secretly be the quest-giver, acting through proxies? Multiple GMs have just ignored that one.

Ask to get a chance to explore a particular type of leadership role? Not entirely the GM's fault on this one, as the party was rabid cats, but the GM did add plenty of elements to encourage backstabbing and party disloyalty instead of making my job easierpossible.

Ask to get a chance to explore a character? Get handed endless stream of combats, or only focus on my weaknesses, or get handed an endless stream of combats that only focus on my weaknesses.

Ask for a mindless dungeon crawl? Get handed months of complex discussion that makes my "wall of text" spells look like children's babble.

And never, NEVER ask for your character to get to "look competent". That never ends well.

Etc etc etc.

So, does anyone have any advice for me on how to get what I'm looking for out of a game?

MrNobody
2017-01-31, 12:22 PM
Usually as a player (and i kindly recommend this behaviour when i'm dming) i try to address special things i want to do 'out of game' without doing it in game before i am totally sure that the DM is ok with what i want to do and will play along.
Sometimes a DM doesn't want to leave room for original content, or knows that it's not the right time for that (if you want to craft a +10 godblasting warhammer but you are poor, and in prison) and if you take something to the table without warning he may have no time to adjust things to fit your needs.

Talking in advance (and maybe have a braindstorm together) could help setting short and long-term goals: you may not gain what you want immediately, but you have the chance to start a path that will lead you there.

NOhara24
2017-01-31, 12:51 PM
-Snip-

So, does anyone have any advice for me on how to get what I'm looking for out of a game?

Either have a discussion with the party and with the DM well before any sort of gaming occurs (what I refer to as Session Zero - everyone meets to roll characters, get familiar with eachother and talk to the DM about what they'd like.) or step behind the DM screen yourself.

By chance are you playing with the same group of people each campaign? That could be your problem.

Geddy2112
2017-01-31, 02:04 PM
First, know the game. Ideally, you can be there for session zero where the campaign layout is discussed, and make your input known then and there when it can influence the game. If you roll up halfway through murderhobo sim hack and slash dungeon crawl and ask for political intrigue, well...not much that can be done.

Second, know the GM. Some GM's might not be comfortable with item crafting, leadership, having you be the quest giver, freeform quest exploration, or who knows what. Normally a GM says no out of inexperience/fear, or experience having been burned by somebody abusing said power. If your dealing with a newbie, it is best not to push them out of their comfort level, and if you are dealing with a case of once bitten, twice shy, you are going to need to really make a case. Knowing the GM's particular style, personality, etc also helps. Some people just won't do certain things when they DM, for whatever reason. This is not wrong, but there is little you will be able to do to convince them.

So lets say what you want to do is something that fits the game(or could without any serious changes) and is not something the GM has a hard line againt. Now you need to present your case. Not just ask "can we have some political intrigue" but lay out exactly what you want to do, why, and most importantly, how it will help the game/GM and be good for everything. Present it as a win-win, that they are not losing any power and allowing this will make things better in every way. If they are new, take time to explain the rules and mechanics of whatever that is, being careful to work with them to help them understand and not overwhelm them. If they are gunshy from previous toxic players, ensure that you won't be doing any of this to hijack their game or cause disruptions.

Most importantly, bring pizza/snacks/soda/beer as applicable to butter them up.

Jay R
2017-01-31, 02:15 PM
For somebody who usually just goes with the flow, you have an extremely high number of issues of this sort. In 41 years of role-playing, I have two such situations, and in each case, the GM explained why it wouldn't work, and I came up with an alternate character idea that fit his campaign.

My first recommendation, in almost any situation, is to stop and reconsider whether your responses are as easy to get along with as you think. You have nine examples, one of which has occurred under several GMs. In the time in which those dozen or more problem games occurred, how many campaigns did you play in which you really did just go with the flow of the GM's game?

If a similar situation came up between you and GM 1, and between you and GM 2, and ... and between you and GM 9, then the problem may not be each specific GM. It might be you. It might be the way you're asking, or the timing, or it may sound like you don't want to fit in with the game. I have no idea, of course. I have no knowledge about any of the specific situations. But the first thing to look at is the one element common to each example.

Secondly, when are you asking? If you ask the GM for wilderness exploring after she's designed a city campaign, or to find the mission after he's already plotted one, or ask to be the quest-giver after she's created the quest-giver, then obviously those are impossible requests.

Thirdly, are you talking to the rest of the party about your ideas, and getting their buy-in in advance? You don't get to decide your "leadership role," or make the party's items, or get a mindless dungeon crawl or wilderness adventure, separate from the others agreeing to it.

[Also, if somebody asked me for a chance to explore his character, one of the first things I'd do to give him that is plan some adventures that focus on his weaknesses.]

Fourthly, I recommend going back to some of those GMs and asking them why your request wasn't acceptable. If there is good information that you need to know, then that's where it can be found.

Finally, special requests need to fit the GM's game ideas. My recommendation is that next time, don't just ask for a specific idea. Instead, ask the GM if this is a reasonable request for his campaign? If not, drop it. You have nine different approaches you've wanted to try. Maybe show him several of them and ask if any of them will work.

In any case, what did the GMs say to all these requests? If they all said "yes", and then refused, you may have a legitimate complaint. But if you just made a request without having a long discussion about the request and its possible effects, then you failed to do your part to make it work, or to know why it wouldn't work.

The answer is always to talk to the GM. But this isn't just making your request. It's making clear that you want to work within her game, trying to find out if the idea is feasible, adjusting it to fit the GM's requirements, etc.

An idea that the GM likes will work. An idea that the GM does not like will not work.

Stryyke
2017-01-31, 02:47 PM
My guess is that you just expected instant turnaround and didn't get it. Sometime last year, we were in a campaign that was taking place in a large city. I was starting to feel cramped in the city, and just explained my position to the DM. "I'm having a lot of fun, but feeling a little cramped in the city. Any chance we could venture outside the walls a little. Get some fresh air?" His response was "The campaign is a city campaign, but I'm not opposed to throwing in some generic adventures outside the walls" It took about 2-3 months, but he is now sprinkling in a few adventures outside the city. If you are asking a DM to change some significant aspect of his campaign, even if he's willing, it may take some time to rearrange things.

But if he isn't willing, there is probably a pretty good reason why. Perhaps what you are asking would create inconsistencies later in the campaign. Perhaps he isn't prepared to run a campaign with small armies running around. Perhaps he doesn't want magic items to be as common as they would be if you created them every session or two. Who knows.

In one campaign I'm running, I have pre-selected every magic item I want to be in the game. So if someone came to me and asked to start making magic items at level 5, I would just say no. In another campaign I ran the game revolved around the tribal nature of the area, so if someone asked to gather an army, I would say no.

Quertus
2017-01-31, 07:08 PM
So, to clarify, my requests were made...

1) at "session 0"*, often when the GM explicitly had asked what people want or of a game, but sometimes just as a, "could you run X" request.

2) of a diverse set of GMs, over many decades, and probably never the same GM twice (given how poorly it has always worked out).

3) after I've played under that GM before; and, in a few cases, I'm even asking for something they've pulled off before, or a variant thereof.

4) so, perhaps my question is, Why does session 0 always fail?

Hmmm... I seem to have lost one of the posts I was trying to respond to, so I'll add that, while I don't particularly enjoy being a GM, I have been in the GMs chair many, many times.

* technically, most of the "can my character earn this thing you're trying to just give me" events happened mid game.


Either have a discussion with the party and with the DM well before any sort of gaming occurs (what I refer to as Session Zero - everyone meets to roll characters, get familiar with eachother and talk to the DM about what they'd like.) or step behind the DM screen yourself.

By chance are you playing with the same group of people each campaign? That could be your problem.

Nope, generally different groups. Probably at most one or two groups that even had 2 such stories.


First, know the game. Ideally, you can be there for session zero where the campaign layout is discussed, and make your input known then and there when it can influence the game. If you roll up halfway through murderhobo sim hack and slash dungeon crawl and ask for political intrigue, well...not much that can be done.

Second, know the GM. Some GM's might not be comfortable with item crafting, leadership, having you be the quest giver, freeform quest exploration, or who knows what. Normally a GM says no out of inexperience/fear, or experience having been burned by somebody abusing said power. If your dealing with a newbie, it is best not to push them out of their comfort level, and if you are dealing with a case of once bitten, twice shy, you are going to need to really make a case. Knowing the GM's particular style, personality, etc also helps. Some people just won't do certain things when they DM, for whatever reason. This is not wrong, but there is little you will be able to do to convince them.

So lets say what you want to do is something that fits the game(or could without any serious changes) and is not something the GM has a hard line againt. Now you need to present your case. Not just ask "can we have some political intrigue" but lay out exactly what you want to do, why, and most importantly, how it will help the game/GM and be good for everything. Present it as a win-win, that they are not losing any power and allowing this will make things better in every way. If they are new, take time to explain the rules and mechanics of whatever that is, being careful to work with them to help them understand and not overwhelm them. If they are gunshy from previous toxic players, ensure that you won't be doing any of this to hijack their game or cause disruptions.

Most importantly, bring pizza/snacks/soda/beer as applicable to butter them up.

I never asked anything of a GM I didn't know, and I was often asking for things seemingly demonstrably within their proven capabilities and predilections.

I find your advise to provide details... curious. With a few notable exceptions, I have generally found that getting gamers to be willing to have a conversation is like pulling teeth. They generally want to just get on with the game, and expect the GM to magically manufacture "fun". Still, it's something I haven't tried before, so I suppose it's worth a try.


For somebody who usually just goes with the flow, you have an extremely high number of issues of this sort. In 41 years of role-playing, I have two such situations, and in each case, the GM explained why it wouldn't work, and I came up with an alternate character idea that fit his campaign.

I game a lot. As much as I can. And have been doing so for a long time. My record was 6 IRL seasons per week. I honestly can't count the number of games I've played, or the number of groups I've gamed with.

And, every single time I've made any kind of request in session 0 in those decades, it has turned out like I described. Have I made an unusually high number of requests for someone who has been gaming for decades?

To be fair, when I've made a request - or held the GMs game / family / reputation hostage - in the middle of a game, I've had much better luck. "Could you send some living foes against us? The rogue hasn't gotten to sneak attack anything in 5 levels?" "Any chance we can hear rumors of a wizard's tower? I'm casting Resurrection, and the poor wizard is still stuck with Magic Missile." "Here's the rules for how XP works in this system. Use them. Or I'll calculate XP for us, if it's too much trouble for you." "Here, I edited your 50 pages of house rules for clarity and consistency. See if my edits are true to your intent." "Stop being a **** to player by action."

All that had worked just fine. But try to treat a GM like a reasonable, sentient being, and talk to them ahead if time about what you'd like to get out of a game, and, for some reason, all I get back is Epic Failure. :smallconfused:


My first recommendation, in almost any situation, is to stop and reconsider whether your responses are as easy to get along with as you think. You have nine examples, one of which has occurred under several GMs. In the time in which those dozen or more problem games occurred, how many campaigns did you play in which you really did just go with the flow of the GM's game?

More than I can count. Let's see... Depending on how you count "groups", for the most recent two examples, I'd played... Hmmm... Somewhere in the teens to low twenties number of different games total with those two groups, and quite a few more with most of the individual players, who were also in other groups.

So I'm looking at a recent average of about 9/10 times just going along with the flow, and only about 1/10 times making any kind of request. I'm guessing that, if my memory were better, and I could remember and count all my old games, those numbers would much more strongly lean towards going with the flow.


If a similar situation came up between you and GM 1, and between you and GM 2, and ... and between you and GM 9, then the problem may not be each specific GM. It might be you. It might be the way you're asking, or the timing, or it may sound like you don't want to fit in with the game. I have no idea, of course. I have no knowledge about any of the specific situations. But the first thing to look at is the one element common to each example.

I can't deny that logic. That's why I'm asking for help.

Decades of evidence suggests that, while I am highly skilled and highly successful at being a ****, and calling a GM out for being a ****, I lack some fundamental capacity for making reasonable requests.


Secondly, when are you asking? If you ask the GM for wilderness exploring after she's designed a city campaign, or to find the mission after he's already plotted one, or ask to be the quest-giver after she's created the quest-giver, then obviously those are impossible requests.

Before the game starts, often when the GM is asking people what they want, with the obvious exception of "can I earn this thing you're trying to just give me", which usually took place in the middle of the game.


Thirdly, are you talking to the rest of the party about your ideas, and getting their buy-in in advance? You don't get to decide your "leadership role," or make the party's items, or get a mindless dungeon crawl or wilderness adventure, separate from the others agreeing to it.

Point. For at least three examples, yes, the whole group was involved in / there for the conversation (calling some of the players "involved" would be too much of a stretch). In one example, true, the players were actively detrimental to my desires.


[Also, if somebody asked me for a chance to explore his character, one of the first things I'd do to give him that is plan some adventures that focus on his weaknesses.]

So that one's reasonable? Not "open-ended" adventures, designed to bring out the character of the character, but one's that specifically designed to repeatedly target one small aspect of the character? :smallconfused:


Fourthly, I recommend going back to some of those GMs and asking them why your request wasn't acceptable. If there is good information that you need to know, then that's where it can be found.

That's another area where I've never been successful. I suppose I could consider posting email fragments for evaluation, but, the short of it is, I have never gotten a valid response to any such inquiries.


Finally, special requests need to fit the GM's game ideas. My recommendation is that next time, don't just ask for a specific idea. Instead, ask the GM if this is a reasonable request for his campaign? If not, drop it. You have nine different approaches you've wanted to try. Maybe show him several of them and ask if any of them will work.

In any case, what did the GMs say to all these requests? If they all said "yes", and then refused, you may have a legitimate complaint. But if you just made a request without having a long discussion about the request and its possible effects, then you failed to do your part to make it work, or to know why it wouldn't work.

I feel like I need a familiar saying how often they are amazed by how often (people could believe that) I run into trouble by not using enough words. I've generally used... fewer words than I'd cared to, but more words than they'd have preferred me to use. Most people I've games with aren't big on talking.

I've never been told "no" in so many words (although the GM quiting the game when I asked for the opportunity to earn something he wanted to just give me probably qualifies as an indirect NJNHN), and usually came away with at least a belief that their words meant "yes", if not an actual binding contractual agreement to make the game contain certain elements*.

* with, again, an obvious exception: any time I've asked to secretly be the quest giver.


The answer is always to talk to the GM. But this isn't just making your request. It's making clear that you want to work within her game, trying to find out if the idea is feasible, adjusting it to fit the GM's requirements, etc.

An idea that the GM likes will work. An idea that the GM does not like will not work.

So, to get what I want, I need to work on my sleaze skills, selling ideas to people? Because I've gotten to do pretty much all these things, just not when I have the itch and am requesting the opportunity to scratch it.

Stryyke
2017-01-31, 08:38 PM
Well, what I've gotten from your long post is that you didn't really come for advice, rather you came hoping a lot of people would sympathize and tell you what a jerk the GM was being, and make you feel better. You do sound like a pretty high-maintenance player, which isn't really a problem. I've been playing for 25+ years, and that request I mentioned in my last post was the only time I've made such a request to a GM. So the fact that you have a list, and that you've been keeping track for years apparently, is indicative of some of your tendency. There's nothing inherently wrong with being a high-maintenance player, as long as you are aware of it. Just understand that if you hold minor grudges for years and years, there's nothing anyone here can do to help you. If you are going to get defensive when someone doesn't agree with what you think, people aren't likely to want to respond.

I think you should start with a little introspection. Why do these things bother you for years and years? Is it just the one GM that you have trouble with? Perhaps your personalities just grate a little. Does the GM give other players everything they ask for? If you've played as much as you say, it's perfectly reasonable to have a number of situations not sit right with you. I think the best thing would simply be for you to understand that the GM cannot bend entire campaigns, he's spent hundreds of hours preparing, to your every whim. I strongly suspect there is a serious case of selective memory going on, too. How many times that you've asked a GM to change their campaign to suit you has the GM made a significant effort to do so?

Just relax. Apparently gaming is huge in your area. If it bothers you so much, just go find a different game. That's my advice. But then again, I only know what you told me. There could be more going on. I don't know.

Darth Ultron
2017-02-01, 01:40 AM
Originally Posted by Quertus

-Snip-

So, does anyone have any advice for me on how to get what I'm looking for out of a game?

My first thought might be it is your social skills. Maybe your not asking the GM in the right way or are somehow rubbing them the wrong way. Maybe you ask to arrogantly, maybe you ask to lightly, maybe you ask to vaguely or something like that. It could also be your timing. You might ask at the wrong times. You might also be making unreasonable requests, at least to the GMs.

You might also be very will ''stuck in a rut'' that you always and only game with one ''type'' of gamer, and that type just ''happens'' to have a large about of jerk GMs. Of course as you are that ''type'' of gamer, you will never even consider other types of games. Kinda like your a die hard football fan and when you go tailgating your sad as everyone only has chips and beer and you really want some kale and green tea.

Of course a lot of GM are just jerks too.

tensai_oni
2017-02-01, 02:26 AM
EDIT:
Okay, before I run with a huge tl;dr tangent I'll give advice to the OP.
It's possible your GM is set in stone in an old paradigm, where it's their story the game is running and players will experience it and will like it. Any requests like that just rub the GM the wrong way and as a result you get the opposite of what you wanted.

Did other players make requests too? If so, were they met? If that's the case then it sounds like it's a personal issue instead. Maybe you phrased your requests in a matter that made them sound more like demands, like someone else in the thread suggested. Or maybe it's personal dislike. Either way sounds like a good OOC talk is in order. Ask the GM why do they never listen to your suggestions - not in an accusatory manner, you just want to know if there is a reason, for example because the whole plot is already planned and your ideas do not mesh with it, or is there something else.

Now, from my experience difficulties in this area come from one thing:

The GM already knows what type of a story they want to run. Players may want to make requests asking for something else, but if that works poorly with what the GM has in mind, the request will either be ignored, or will appear in the game not immediately but rather in a longer while, when the immediate plot runs its course. This may take months, or more.

I personally had a lot of issues GMing for other people, in that they wrote hooks in their character backstories with expectations that these hooks would be used, but I never did. I either missed them due to being focused on my own plot too much, or I was afraid to "mess up" with the characters too much.

The solution to that was simple but also very much not like a classic tabletop setup:

I've started to run games where, before the game even begins, I work closely with each player to know what the players expect and want. What themes they want to explore, what plots they want to see, even what specific events they want their characters to be involved in, what NPCs they want to see in those events and how they expect the events to play out. This isn't about looking badass and getting fat loot (if this is what the player wanted, their request would be rejected), this is about creating a personal storyline for the character.

And it worked great. Like I just said, this type of collaborative roleplaying when it's not just the GM who comes to the table with a prepared plot, but the players contribute to it too: it stands anathema to the usual playing style of "I'm GM the host, you players are my guests, you play my story and like it". But in the end, it created games where everyone was very involved in what happens, not just their own character's doings but also the other PCs'.

Quertus
2017-02-01, 04:29 AM
Well, what I've gotten from your long post is that you didn't really come for advice, rather you came hoping a lot of people would sympathize and tell you what a jerk the GM was being, and make you feel better.

Hmmm... Nah, most of the times I've brought up my horrible experiences, sympathy would be one valid response. This time it would be... well, I guess I'll have to call it "the least valid response". The length of my previous reply a) was to help provide details of my PoV, what I've tried, etc; b) likely obfuscated the part where I admitted that, by virtue of myself being the only common factor in the equation, it makes it... highly suspicious, and therefore worthy of inspection.


You do sound like a pretty high-maintenance player, which isn't really a problem. I've been playing for 25+ years, and that request I mentioned in my last post was the only time I've made such a request to a GM. So the fact that you have a list, and that you've been keeping track for years apparently, is indicative of some of your tendency. There's nothing inherently wrong with being a high-maintenance player, as long as you are aware of it. Just understand that if you hold minor grudges for years and years, there's nothing anyone here can do to help you. If you are going to get defensive when someone doesn't agree with what you think, people aren't likely to want to respond.

Hmmm... Interesting. I only just compiled the list as I was writing the post. My... unusual memory... where I can pull all these events, but might not remember my own name (slight exaggeration, but hopefully you get the idea) is just something I'm used to, and sometimes I forget that other people will be confused by it.

Making maybe low teens requests for hundreds of characters spanning decades of play is high maintenance? Hmmm... Actually, I think you're probably right, given the statistics I'm pulling from my time in the GM seat. Huh. Surprising.

For my internal state, it's less about holding grudges, and more about WTF moments. For most of the GMs, at least. I'll admit, I'm still sore about a couple of those events.

And I certainly don't feel defensive. I'm just... selectively precise? Hmmm... that is, it doesn't do me any good for the playground to solve a problem similar to mine, it only helps me if I can figure out my specific problem. Or, at the very least, ideas that I haven't tried (or, possibly, that I have tried the wrong way).

I hate to be so... needy... but can you make any suggestions on how not to sound defensive and off-putting while trying to get at the root of the problem?


I think you should start with a little introspection. Why do these things bother you for years and years? Is it just the one GM that you have trouble with? Perhaps your personalities just grate a little. Does the GM give other players everything they ask for? If you've played as much as you say, it's perfectly reasonable to have a number of situations not sit right with you. I think the best thing would simply be for you to understand that the GM cannot bend entire campaigns, he's spent hundreds of hours preparing, to your every whim. I strongly suspect there is a serious case of selective memory going on, too. How many times that you've asked a GM to change their campaign to suit you has the GM made a significant effort to do so?

Introspection? I bloody can't stop. I'm constantly regurgitating random events from my entire life, looking at patterns / trends / whatnot. But, I may be looking at things from the wrong point of view.

As I said (poorly), I'm good at being a **** in the middle of a campaign, and changing people's play styles. But, things of this "class" - polite requests made in a timely manner (generally, that means at session 0, with the exception of most instances of asking for the opportunity to earn something the GM was trying to just give me, undeserved) regarding the play style / game content? Not just 0% success rate, but constant epic failure. That's what's bugging me.


Just relax. Apparently gaming is huge in your area. If it bothers you so much, just go find a different game. That's my advice. But then again, I only know what you told me. There could be more going on. I don't know.

I've... gamed with many of these people since. This one event didn't always just kill gaming for me with that group.


My first thought might be it is your social skills. Maybe your not asking the GM in the right way or are somehow rubbing them the wrong way. Maybe you ask to arrogantly, maybe you ask to lightly, maybe you ask to vaguely or something like that. It could also be your timing. You might ask at the wrong times. You might also be making unreasonable requests, at least to the GMs.

You might also be very will ''stuck in a rut'' that you always and only game with one ''type'' of gamer, and that type just ''happens'' to have a large about of jerk GMs. Of course as you are that ''type'' of gamer, you will never even consider other types of games. Kinda like your a die hard football fan and when you go tailgating your sad as everyone only has chips and beer and you really want some kale and green tea.

Of course a lot of GM are just jerks too.

Me? Arrogant? I'm too perfect to be arrogant. :smallwink:

Most people seem to agree that "Session 0" seems to be the right time for most of these requests. So I guess that leaves trying different styles of asking. That, and hoping it's not a "beer and chips" problem.


EDIT:
Okay, before I run with a huge tl;dr tangent I'll give advice to the OP.
It's possible your GM is set in stone in an old paradigm, where it's their story the game is running and players will experience it and will like it. Any requests like that just rub the GM the wrong way and as a result you get the opposite of what you wanted.

Did other players make requests too? If so, were they met?

The conclusions I draw from your post are too ****ing depressing for me to accept without mulling them over first. I'll get back with you.

Jay R
2017-02-01, 11:16 AM
Making maybe low teens requests for hundreds of characters spanning decades of play is high maintenance? Hmmm... Actually, I think you're probably right, given the statistics I'm pulling from my time in the GM seat. Huh. Surprising.

Let me try to focus that a little bit. A request that doesn't match the GM's plans is high maintenance. I virtually always make requests. The ideal character generation involves a week of back-and-forth discussion between the player and the GM, with occasional emails to the rest of the party, for any aspect for which I need their buy-in. Most GMs seem to enjoy this - and my "special-request" character often winds up very different from the original concept, with aspects that excite me but modified to match the GM's ideas.

There is a legal maxim: "Any lawyer knows the law. A good lawyer knows the exceptions. A great lawyer knows the judge." Similarly, to make a special request work well, you need to know the GM - her general approach to gaming, her approach to this game system, and her plan for the current campaign. The special request character I played under Dirk would not have worked under Michael, and vice versa. Similarly, Hyperion fit Nolen's ideas of Champions, Ultra and Leprechaun fit Lloyd's, and Dr. MacAbre fit Rob's. All four had some GM-approved exceptions they might not have gotten under another GM.


I hate to be so... needy... but can you make any suggestions on how not to sound defensive and off-putting while trying to get at the root of the problem?

From my point of view, that's not a problem. I was pretty hard on you in my first response, in order to convince you to seriously consider yourself as a possible source. Your response was equally strong, but quite polite.


As I said (poorly), I'm good at being a **** in the middle of a campaign, and changing people's play styles.

Is it possible that you are better with this because what you're suggesting fits in with the campaign?


But, things of this "class" - polite requests made in a timely manner (generally, that means at session 0, with the exception of most instances of asking for the opportunity to earn something the GM was trying to just give me, undeserved) regarding the play style / game content? Not just 0% success rate, but constant epic failure. That's what's bugging me.

One suggestion is to ask if it will work, and if she says no, drop it. If the GM doesn't think it works, then it will fail.


Most people seem to agree that "Session 0" seems to be the right time for most of these requests. So I guess that leaves trying different styles of asking. That, and hoping it's not a "beer and chips" problem.

"... the right time for most of these requests." I note that this phrase has no verb, and I think it needs one. It's not just that session 0 is the right time to make these requests. Session 0 is the right time to decide what request you want to make.

My strongest recommendation, based on everything I've read so far, is to stop coming up with ideas until session 0. Listen to the GM's pitch for the game, and then try to figure out what would be fun to play in that context.

Then don't ask him if you can do X. Ask him if your character doing X would fit in with the game he has in mind. If he doesn't seem intrigued, drop it. If he has to think awhile with a nervous or neutral look on his face, drop it. Come up with another idea, and see if that one makes him grin.

Your idea from inside the GM's introduction is far likelier to work than your idea before hearing about the world.

In a game of original D&D, in the days when character generation was 3d6 in order, I rolled STR 4, DEX 16, CHA high, WIS low, and the rest low-to-average. I was considering dumping him, when the DM said, "That's a nine-year-old kid." Since the DM lovd telling stories about what he got away with as a kid, I jumped on it. He became David, a nine-year-old street kid who was a 1st level Thief. (There was more background than that, of course.)

He once took down a sentry by walking up sniffling and crying, and saying, "Where's my daddy? I can't find him. I'm cold, and I'm tired, and I'm hungry, and I'm thirsty, and I want my daddy!" As the sentry turned to get some food, the kid sneak attacked.

Last year, I was trying to come up with something unique and fun for the gnome illusionist I was designing. I'd run a couple of ideas by the DM, and he seemed bored with them. The day Alan Rickman died, I was reminded of his line from GalaxyQuest ("By Grabthar's hammer, by the suns of Warvan, you shall be avenged"). So I came up with the idea of an Ancestral Relic, which would be the hooked hammer of his ancestor Grabthar. The DM loved the idea, and even invented a major battle hundreds of years ago, in which Grabthar earned his fame fighting alongside the Sons of Warvan.

The best ideas are the ones that sing to the GM. Do what you can to come up with a special request that fits the GM's ideas of fun, and fits into this specific world, and I think you'll have better luck.

JAL_1138
2017-02-01, 04:16 PM
So, I've got a problem, and I'm wondering if anyone has any advice for me.

I'm old-school. Usually, I just go with the flow of whatever the GM has prepared. But, sometimes, there's a particular itch I'd like to scratch. But every time I've ever tried to make a request of a GM regarding... story elements, how I'd like my character to contribute to the game, whatever... it has always gone badly. It doesn't matter the GM, it doesn't matter the system, it always results in Epic Fail.

Ask for exploration, getting a chance to explore the cool setting/world? Get stuck in one city, fighting bandits. For the entire campaign.

I can sort of see the reasoning here for a DM--city games are hard to prep for homebrew. There's so much detail. Because players can pretty well go anywhere within the city at any time, you either have to be an expert improviser or do a boatload of work detailing the various areas. If you've already gone to all that work, it's a bit hard to let the players out to go muck about in the woods or travel halfway across the continent. Running out of a city module is a bit easier, but still tough. Generally safest to assume city games will stay there.


Ask to get to craft items? GM makes my crafting impossible, and just hands the party items better than I am trying to craft.

I can sort of see this one too--not as much, but some. Item crafting in 3.5 could get really insane really quickly, for example. Even purely crafting mundane items--not even magical--can result in some serious shenanigans in any edition, with enough MacGuyvering. I've done a few things back in AD&D (where magic item crafting wasn't much of an option) that went sideways pretty quick once I started building contraptions. The green-slime-launching trebuchet and the source of its ammo was probably the crowner for me in D&D, but by no means the only one. Agnyway, after egnough such shegnagnigagns, I'm gnow forbiddegn from playigng tignker gnomes.

The DM might have given out "better" items, but presumably they know exactly what those do and how they can be used, so that you don't end up finding a way to blow up the earth with a pair of paper clips and a rubber band. (Incidentally, I've done nearly that in WEG D6. Disable the safety cutoffs on the hyperdrive with some basic tools, aim at a planet at relativistic or superluminal speed, and *kaboom*--a blast more potent than the Death Star's superlaser, achievable by anyone with a starship. GM shut it down so the game could actually continue without Armageddon occurring. I should probably be kept away from engineering/crafting skills...) So I can see being suspicious of allowing character item crafting...but maybe not to the extent of your DM.

Another thing to consider--it might not be you. The DM might have another player at the table who can't be trusted with crafting, because they'll figure out how to build a green-slime trebuchet, or invent a piston engine with brown mold and cantrips, or build a pulse-jet if you give them smith's tools, dwarven liquor, and a bit of sheet metal. If they allow reasonable crafting for you, they might have a harder time keeping the other player from commencing shenanigans--"Hey, you let Quertus craft things, why not me?"


Ask to try to earn something the GM tries to just give me? Well, this particular scenario occurred under several GMs, but their responses included quitting the game, and conspiring with another character to kill my character off.

This one I don't get--not in the reactions, anyway.

Part of it would depend I suppose on how the player asked me, in what tone and phrasing, and on what was being given out, but I'd probably do one of a couple-three things in response. 1) I might say "you feel unworthy of your fortunes and your gifts from the divine? RP that up. "Impostor syndrome" and/or other feelings of unworthiness is great fodder for character development." Or 2) tell you "This is a freebie at char-gen to put you at the appropriate power level with the group. Since everyone else has this, and I don't want everyone else to have to earn it (because I'd have to start lower-powered than I want to and do some more prepwork), I'm not going to create a special questline here. You might put something in backstory. There'll be the opportunities to earn cool stuff the hard way later on." 3) I might just ask "how? What would make you feel you've earned it? Why do you feel you haven't earned it?" and consider coming up with something. Quitting the game or conspiring to kill your character seems extreme to the point of being ludicrous.

Either you consistently find really bad thin-skinned DMs--which is absolutely possible; you may very well be entirely without fault if that's the case (and would be very LIKELY to be the case with the one conspiring with another player to kill your PC)--or you're asking it in a way that multiple people have found objectionable. How exactly have you asked, and regarding what items/abilities, and in what circumstances? I can't really comment more than generally unless I know specifics.


Ask to get to find missions for the party? Get handed missions the party would never accept.

This one doesn't make much sense either--depending on how you're asking and whether there's already a quest in place and a few other factors, anyhow. It could be that the missions they had were the planned quest hooks and they're hoping the party will bite them, or it could be that they're trying to railroad you toward specific quests (although in that case, why not just have you ask around the tavern and hear the rumor that leads you to the quest they want?) I dunno. I generally like players to go look for hooks in-game. If you're asking at Session 0, however...definitely depends on how you ask and what the game style is. If you want to be the group's fixer in a Shadowrun-esque game, maybe. If you're asking in a way that makes it seem (inadvertently, in your case--but maybe not in others the DM has encountered) like something to grab the spotlight, or be more important than another player, though, then I'd be leery.



Ask to secretly be the quest-giver, acting through proxies? Multiple GMs have just ignored that one.

That one I can see. I typically don't like to start with any one player's character being significantly more important to the game than any other, although it might develop in-game, and having you secretly be a quest-giver makes you more important to "the story" than, for instance, Swordguy McFighter the Mercenary. It also means you'd know major parts of the quest in advance, and actively be keeping that from the other players. Why do it at all, other than "because twist!"? Secrets from the group of that type and on that scale tend not to go over well when the reveal comes--players could well feel annoyed that you were adventuring with them and possibly keeping mum about dangerous things, or were working alongside them without trusting them enough to reveal your motives or identity. It could feel like a betrayal or that you have ulterior motives. Nobody likes being played like a fiddle by an "ally."

The DM might also perceive it as you trying to shoehorn yourself into more story importance than the party (not saying that's true, just they might see it that way). The DM might also be leery of seeming to display favoritism in terms of story importance. Also, what happens to the quest if you get one-shotted by a lucky monster critting the bejeezus out of you at level 1? And, too, if you're working with proxies, that gives you a wider network of influence than the others might have.

I'd rather have it out in the open or not do it at all. At least OOC, if not IC. Prevents some of the issues around player perceptions. I'd also want to structure the quest such that you were less the focus and more of the pitch-man, so that if you dropped the game or your character died the quest doesn't go kaput. Having you be the one who heard about the rumor about some Tomb somewhere, allegedly Of Horrors, and trying to put together a group to split the profits equally might not be too much of a stretch, but I still might rather keep everyone on equal footing and just say "you've all heard rumors of the Tomb of Horrors..."


Ask to get a chance to explore a particular type of leadership role? Not entirely the GM's fault on this one, as the party was rabid cats, but the GM did add plenty of elements to encourage backstabbing and party disloyalty instead of making my job easierpossible.

Two parts here. One, encouraging backstabbing is a particular type of game (one I don't personally favor--I try not to touch PVP with a 10-foot pole myself), but if it's that kind of game, herding cats and trying to prevent backstabbing is what a leader does. The DM may have been trying (and failing) to give you some appropriate leadership challenges. Or might be a jerk. Hard to tell with the information being sparse.

Two, DMs might not like saying to one player at campaign start "ok, you're the leader of the team." The party leader should typically be something the party decides on, not the DM. If you want to lead, discuss it with them rather than asking the DM to impose it on them by fiat. Or display leadership qualities such that the group decides to follow your lead.


Ask to get a chance to explore a character? Get handed endless stream of combats, or only focus on my weaknesses, or get handed an endless stream of combats that only focus on my weaknesses.

If the DM wants to run a combat game, they're not likely to change for one player. It does seem like the DM should talk that over, though, and say something like "I'm planning to run more of a combat-focused game, so you may not really get a chance to do that. If a combat game isn't what you're looking for, this may not be the table for you, sorry to say" rather than not cluing you in.


Ask for a mindless dungeon crawl? Get handed months of complex discussion that makes my "wall of text" spells look like children's babble.

As above, if the DM isn't planning to run a dungeon crawl, they're not likely to do so because one player asked. They've likely already prepped the social game--even at Session 0. Although again, as above, that's something the DM should also tell you up front. "I'm running an intrigue-focused, social-fu kind of game with heavy philosophical elements, with very little dungeon-crawling," or some such. Then again, it could also be something that develops naturally, if players bite on social quest hooks and avoid the dungeons.


And never, NEVER ask for your character to get to "look competent". That never ends well.

If you want to look competent, have the build for it , use good tactics/strategy/skills, and/or roll well. Trying to get into the heads of your DMs, it could seem like you're asking to be superawesome at the start regardless of whether it's earned, depending on how you're asking it--not likely, but I can't tell without more detail. It generally shouldn't merit a poor response, though, so I dunno.

If you know the DM hates letting characters seem competent, might be a table to steer clear of.