Playing Star Wars Saga, anything that should be avoided?

[Ken Murikumo]

Just Played a session yesterday and it was thoroughly enjoyable (the past few months have been epic mediocrity so this was a fresh change of pace).

But it got me wondering. Wizards tends to add tons of useless feats and classes or some that require a very specific build to be effective. After looking through the core rulebook and a few splat books i realized that there are some classes, feats, and talents that are pretty underwhelming. Anyone with more experience with this system know of any holes or deceptively useless abilities to avoid?

I am specializing in ranged combat. I do have the lightsaber and a few force powers to surprise unsuspecting enemies with, but my main focus is to take things down at range.

[Tohsaka Rin]

Crank your Dex, take the lightsaber form that lets you use your Dex instead of Str for damage. Take weapon spec, and weapon focus. There isn't really any useless abilities, just ones that work better with certain builds more than others.

If you have Scum and Villainy, install an improved ion cell into your rifle (get one, if you don't have it) and put a retractable stock, scope, grenade launcher, and bayonet ring on it.

Mount your lightsaber as a bayonet. You now have what is basically the ultimate gun, until you can get access to the Tech Specialist feat, to add improved damage onto it.

I'd go into armor and other gear, but I don't know how deep you want the rabbit hole to go.

[Pleh]

It's really stinking hard to go wrong with Jedi. Just focus on using Use The Force to do as many checks as possible and make sure you have focus in Use The Force and just roll to win.

It sounds like you're going for weaponmaster type build. I'm not sure soldier can do that better than a pure lightsaber combat jedi. I mean, unless you want to use more than just lightsabers, but I'm not sure soldier really does that better.

[Ken Murikumo]

Crank your Dex, take the lightsaber form that lets you use your Dex instead of Str for damage. Take weapon spec, and weapon focus. There isn't really any useless abilities, just ones that work better with certain builds more than others.

If you have Scum and Villainy, install an improved ion cell into your rifle (get one, if you don't have it) and put a retractable stock, scope, grenade launcher, and bayonet ring on it.

Mount your lightsaber as a bayonet. You now have what is basically the ultimate gun, until you can get access to the Tech Specialist feat, to add improved damage onto it.

I'd go into armor and other gear, but I don't know how deep you want the rabbit hole to go.

Dex is my highest stat (at 16). My str is 14, but im using modded corellian power armor, so it's also 16. Also, funny that you should bring up a gun like that, because other than the ion cell, that is exactly my gun (heavy blaster rifle). I cand find the ion cell you mentioned, but there is the ion charger (dunno if that's what you were talking about, but im getting that when i can).

I dont/wont qualify for tech specialist, but the droid might (another player).

My armor is a Corellian Powersuit with armorplast, vacuum sealed, aquatic, ready harness, helm-package, & intergrated equipment (electro-binoculars)

But by all means, lets go down that rabbit-whole.


It's really stinking hard to go wrong with Jedi. Just focus on using Use The Force to do as many checks as possible and make sure you have focus in Use The Force and just roll to win.

It sounds like you're going for weaponmaster type build. I'm not sure soldier can do that better than a pure lightsaber combat jedi. I mean, unless you want to use more than just lightsabers, but I'm not sure soldier really does that better.

Im trying to do both ranged and melee, but mainly ranged. Im gonna stick with soldier until i prestege, then i'll jump back to jedi or a prestige jedi class.

Also, the game is run mostly by salvage, so shops and merchants will be VERY rare. I may not simply be able to buy stuff at will.

But thanks for the input!!

[Vizzerdrix]

If I remember, one of the books has a nice tazer-riot shield thingy in it, and another has rules on turning weapon power cells into IEDs. I dont remember what books though.

[Pleh]

Even still, remember that anyone with Force Sensitivity can take Force Talents any time in place of class talents.

Many of those talents can be massively helpful without giving away your Force connection, like Force Pilot or Damage Reduction.

[emeraldstreak]

There are three levels of consideration in SAGA.


a) on a basic level, it is a well-balanced d20 system; with plenty of choices that are decent by themselves or in combinations with others


b) on an intermediate level, as you go into mid/high levels, you will start noticing things about defense scaling - and the rising importance of the flat-footed effect. Obviously, avoid being flat-footed, and try to flat-foot the enemy.


c) on an advanced level, there are many powerful combinations on the party level (example in the spoiler). The key to winning them is to interrupt a link in the enemy chain whenever the opportunity arises - you might not get a second one.

This is a single turn from a pbp game.
Setup: 3 NPC soldier/scouts lvl 4-5 v Jedi PCs of similar lvl
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20001021&postcount=729
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20004320&postcount=736
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20004343&postcount=737
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20004367&postcount=738
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20004399&postcount=739
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20004430&postcount=740

[Doctor Awkward]

Strictly speaking, the "best" you can do in ranged combat in SWSE is a Scoundrel/Bounter Hunter/Gunslinger ranged specialist. With the right talents and feats, a solid rifle with a double-trigger and a targeting scope, and Hunter's Mark ability, you can knock a target all the way down the entire condition track to unconsciousness with a single shot. Given the distances involved you will almost always deny your target their Dex to AC. But those generally aren't fun, and tend to prompt a nuclear response from GM's in game.

Some of the most fun I had in Star Wars Saga Edition was playing a crotchety, middle-aged, totally mundane non-Force Ranged focused tinkerer named Miles Corbin Grainer. The party called him "Smiley", partly because they knew it annoyed him to no end and partly because they couldn't too outright mean to him because he enhanced all of their gear. And flew the ship.

My old build stub was

Human
Soldier 1- class feats, Gearhead, Tech Specialist (Armored Defense), Trained skills: Climb, Endurance, Initiative, Jump, Mechanics, Perception, Treat Injury, Use Computer
Soldier 2- Armor Proficiency (heavy)
Soldier 3- Starship Designer, (Improved Armor Defense)
Scout 1- Shake It Off, Evasion
Scoundrel 1- Point Blank Shot, Gimmick
Soldier 4- Skill Focus (Mechanic), Weapon Proficiency (heavy)

During the game I took 1 level in Ace Pilot, because no one else wanted to fly the ship... which became my ship after I added the upgrades from Starship Designer. I then took a few levels in Gunslinger, and finished with Saboteur from the Force Unleashed book. God I loved that class. One of their talent trees is Turrets, which lets you construct small portable disposable automated turrets...
"Hey look buddy, I'm an engineer..." (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNgNBsCI4EA) Ayup.

But that brings me to the best part about playing mundane characters: The TOYS!

First up was my custom suit of Medium Battle Armor, with Helmet Package (+2 Perception checks, low-light vision, and integrated hands-free commlink), Vacuum seals (negates the effects of the environment with a 10 hour oxygen supply), integrated Electrobinoculars, Heat Sensor, a Mesh Underlay (KotOR, p 76), and the Agile Armor Tech Specialist mod (increased Dex bonus to AC). With that beauty I used to march into combat freely tossing gas grenades at enemies without a care in the world. Oh too much cover from the thick smoke, you say? Heat Sensor. Ah ha, there he is. Bang.

That leads me to my next pride and joy. A double-barrel carbine (Legacy Era p 63) with a Pulse Charger out of Scum and Villainy and the Improved Accuracy Tech Specialist mod, as well as an underslung Grenade Launcher. This sucker had two separete fire modes: single shot, standard for a carbine rifle, or a double-shot mode where it attacked everything in a 2x2 square area. If I miss, they still take half damage. Worked great with the Targeted Area feat from Unknown Regions, which did 5 extra damage to any one target in the area that I hit. Oh and Sith couldn't block it because it was an area attack. :smallbiggrin: My supply of grenades, in addition to Stun, Smoke, and Gas, also contained an Electronet (Scum and Villainy), which attacked a 2x2 area, grappled and dealt stun damage every single round until the victim escaped.

There was also the Deck Sweeper blaster from Scum and Villainy, which was sort of the double-barrel on steroids. It only fired in an area, but it could cover a six-square cone. Only got about 5 shots though. I didn't use it nearly as much. He also carried a custom prototype Verpine heavy blaster with an improved power cell as a backup weapon.

The rest of his equipment was pretty standard: A mastercraft stormtrooper utility belt (a med kit, tool kit, 3 days rations, liquid cable dispenser with grappling hook, glow rod, 1 power pack, 1 spare energy cell, spare comlink), a security kit for breaking into electronic locks and systems, a bandolier with 10 spare power packs, a wrist-mounted bracer computer, and two rolls of mesh tape (duct tape).

Man he was a blast to play. One of my finest moments was leading the Big Bad Evil Sith into the cargo hold of the ship by taunting him with a holocron we stole from the Sith temple. The party was beat to hell, and were cowering behind me as I stood there with a spent blaster in one hand and a live thermal detonator armed with a dead man's switch in the other. I told him if he did tried any of his "fancy mystical whatsit nonsense", I'd drop the detonator and we'd all go bye-bye. And if he wanted his "little glowing doohicky", he could darn well step on over and take it. So he ignited his lightsaber and charged. When he got halfway across the room he tripped a trap I had built into one 5-foot square that created an enormous gravity well that pancaked him into the floor. For the life of me, I cannot remember the book it came from any more, but I remember it cost a freaking fortune. In the round it took the party to say, "Holy crap! Let's kill him while he's helpless!" I replied, "What? No way. Think of the bounty!" and fired the net at him. Boy was the DM ticked, and admitted after the fact that he'd forgotten all about that trap.

[kuhaica]

Suit up to kill Sith and Jedi alike. This means AOE weapons and things used to stun or daze opponents. Since you are also going down that route. I'd say take a look at some of the Light Saber stances if you want to be safer in a melee fight and take a look at the force healing, Teleport and invisibleity.

As well. Get a Medium Cargo Ship ASAP. It costs a lot but you can upgrade it to be quite nasty in fights and quick enough to escape most vessels. Plus has enough room for NPC followers which make life so much easier.


Now besides those very vauge peices of advice. If you want to be a great range combat guy. Go down Elite trooper and get one of the greater "x" talents from the Unleashed book. Those are amazing. Being able to ignore DR or Knock down someone's threshold. Wonderful.

As well, point blank shot + far shot = amazing. Plus the Tri Something Targeting scope from Galaxy at war or some other book is basically far shot for free and stacks. So that means point blank, Short and Medium range intervals take no penalties. And Ling range is only a -2. Pretty amazing. Next getting a flame thrower. Preferably wrest mounted. This comes in handy more then you think and is easy to hide. A Feat which you should also consider is sniper. It lets you ignore light cover meaning you can shoot through it and do full damage and not take penalties.

In my last game I played a powerful character who I accidentally made into a character that far our shined the rest of the part just by stacking the Point Blank feats. So, do be careful the Saga System is fun but some things are much stronger then others. I was playing Mando and I felt no shame. However we started to break the game because my DM was being quite rude to us in game. Mainly creating enemies specific to ruin us and make it no fun. And one thing I found was there's a method to resort yourself to full health and take half damage on an attack using second wind and something else. If I find my character sheet I'll be able to reference the thing. However I wouldn't advice using it. It's scummy as sin and I felt dirty for months.

[Tohsaka Rin]

Dex is my highest stat (at 16). My str is 14, but im using modded corellian power armor, so it's also 16. Also, funny that you should bring up a gun like that, because other than the ion cell, that is exactly my gun (heavy blaster rifle). I cand find the ion cell you mentioned, but there is the ion charger (dunno if that's what you were talking about, but im getting that when i can).

I dont/wont qualify for tech specialist, but the droid might (another player).

My armor is a Corellian Powersuit with armorplast, vacuum sealed, aquatic, ready harness, helm-package, & intergrated equipment (electro-binoculars)

But by all means, lets go down that rabbit-whole.


I goofed, I always call it the wrong thing. It's 'Improved Energy Cell, KotOR handbook, page 75'. Errata also changed the slot cost from 2, down to 1. Very very useful.


Strip out the vacuum seals on the armor, and get a thinsuit (Clone Wars campaign guide, pg 64) instead, since it can be worn under your armor. Strip out the heating/cooling units, upgrade to dedicated ones. Strip out the basic vacuum seals on the thinsuit, upgrade to the heavier ones. Now you're protected from hot/cold environments, have 10 hours of air, and can hide the suit under regular clothes if you need to.

Get that droid tech specialist as soon as you can, it'll benefit everyone. Especially you, upgrading your power suit to have a boost to strength, over what you're already getting.

For your integrated equipment? Anytime you find a piece of gear that gives you a boost to skill checks, grab it. The dual gear upgrade is your friend. Combine those things, and cram them into your armor.

Add in a glow rod, too. A hands-free light source is never a bad thing to have. A heat sensor (Threats to the Galaxy, pg 37) will help you sniff out anyone hiding, or find heat sources. Useful in the desert at night, and basically anywhere cold, too.

Slap an upgraded video recorder in there, because 'he said/she said/the traitor confessed right before he tried to kill me' situations are dumb.

Tool kit? Of course. You should be spending your hard-earned credits putting the miniaturizing upgrade on everything you can, to keep all this ridiculous weight down.

Speaking of which, get a power generator, tech spec it to have an additional free slot (remember Scum and Villainy says everything has 1 free slot now), and double-miniaturize it, then slap it into your armor. Virtually infinite power for your exoskeleton, your integrated gear, and if you're feeling cheeky, infinite ammo for any weapon slots you may add.

If you're feeling very, very cheeky, you can make what I like to call the 'I'm not staying here' tool. You make this device by starting with a small lightsaber. You then miniaturize it, then strip its damage, then miniaturize it, strip its damage, miniaturize it, then tech spec a slot in, and put the cloaked upgrade on it, and disguise it as a ring, or a chunky earring, or a thick hair clasp. Whatever. You now have a 2d3 tiny adamantine cutting tool. Virtually no lock will ever bar your way again.



Phew... Also, never forget to always have a camouflage poncho, and netting. Both are found in Galaxy at War, pg 46, and are invaluable for hiding both yourself, and any friends/vehicles/camps you use.

A player with tech specialist opens the door to getting more upgrade slots on everyone's gear, and that's never a bad thing.

Lastly (because I'm running out of breath saying all this, and getting light-headed :smalleek: ) carry lots of grenades, of different types. You never know what you'll need, and you're spoiled for choice.

...Ok, that's it for now... More in the future, if you want it... I think I need to have a lay down... :smallsigh:

[Ken Murikumo]

Even still, remember that anyone with Force Sensitivity can take Force Talents any time in place of class talents.

i have force focus right now, so i can recover force powers during battle. Are there any that are ABSOLUTELY necessary?


Snip

That's a pretty mean build. I think that might be too much for the Dm, but my main concern would be him making things harder to challenge me and as a result the rest of the party just becoming like krillin from DBZ. or worse... yamcha


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I have a few thermal detonators, and a butt load of grenades (with a grenade launcher). One of which was used on a robot with a lightsaber and the deflect ability. (he got shreked)

Also, we pooled some money into a ship we'll get as part of the story. It's the same class as the ebon hawk/millennium falcon (dunno what class that is off hand)


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I have an All temperature cloak, which does the same as the both environmental systems without taking up a slot. It was cheaper and i imagine they looked like Darth Revan with the armor cloak combo.

The dual equipment for skill boost is solid though. The power generator would be iffy because the Dm said they will die and need repairing, sticking with the salvage game theme. I don't think i need an integrated glow-rod because i have those elctro-binoculars already integrated and they give darkvision. Video camera and mini tool kits are a good idea.

And that tiny lightsaber... Oh, boy is my Dm gonna hate me for that! Pure Brilliance!

But the Tech Specialist thing. I'm not seeing anything anywhere that give items more upgrade slots.

[Pleh]

Necessary? Dunno. Force powers can pretty much do whatever you want them to.

As a GM, I had the most trouble controlling players that made clever use of Mind Trick, Surge, and Fold Space.

Since most all force powers are rolled against a static number, whether defense or just a DC, it's not hard to make sure your powers are always just winning every roll.

[Tohsaka Rin]

I have an All temperature cloak, which does the same as the both environmental systems without taking up a slot. It was cheaper and i imagine they looked like Darth Revan with the armor cloak combo.

The dual equipment for skill boost is solid though. The power generator would be iffy because the Dm said they will die and need repairing, sticking with the salvage game theme. I don't think i need an integrated glow-rod because i have those elctro-binoculars already integrated and they give darkvision. Video camera and mini tool kits are a good idea.

And that tiny lightsaber... Oh, boy is my Dm gonna hate me for that! Pure Brilliance!

But the Tech Specialist thing. I'm not seeing anything anywhere that give items more upgrade slots.

An all-temperature cloak gives you bonuses for hot and cold environments. Installing both environmental systems makes you immune to hot and cold environments. See the difference? One gives you a little boost, the other lets you take naps on Tatooine/Hoth without worry. In the open. Without shelter.

Electro-binoculars are great, if you're not moving, and don't have friends that you need to point something out to, and they don't have darkvision as well. Ever tried walking while using binoculars, even at the minimum setting? That's begging for the GM to give you perception penalties for an ambush, because you've just killed your situational awareness by narrowing your field of view so much.

Scum and Villainy, pg 48, the little colored sidebar entry on Tech Specialist. It's not where you'd expect an entry on a feat from Starships of the Galaxy, I know, so it's easy to forget it's there.

Aside from that stuff, the best part about the tiny, disguised lightsabers is that you can give them out to the rest of the party, later down the line. Not only are they great for getting out of prisons, or breaking into places, they make fantastic assassination tools.

In the future, whoever takes the tech specialist feat should think about getting the superior tech feat, too. If you're in a game where you have to salvage and craft all your gear, being able to customize it (particularly during hyperspace travel, where you have nothing but lots of downtime to work) it's going to be invaluable.

Also, if the generators need maintenance, well, that's reasonable and realistic. Hyperspace travel does lend itself to downtime repairs. If that's not working for you, modify your gear with the extra capacity upgrade. Reloading half as often is almost as good, and it synergizes well with the improved energy cell upgrade for your blaster.

Remember, you live and die by your gear. The more kit you have, the more things you can react to. It also weighs you down, so for gear that doesn't need a lot of upgrades, like those visors, spend the time/money to add an extra slot, so you can dual-gear and miniaturize them. Save space, save weight.

If you really like your toys, upgrading to a wrist, long-range, encrypted, video-capable comlink is eventually a must. Thanks to your helmet package, it'll be hands-free, too. You'll be able to see the video feed in your helmet, and talk to anyone in high orbit. Dual-gear your video recorder into your comlink, and you should be able to send video feeds from your PoV thanks to that handy helmet package. (It's useful for a LOT of things, always abuse it.)

Since we're talking utility, never forget to carry a bandolier, since you can put so many different things into them. Carry two, if you're always in trouble. Four power packs in each, and then fill the rest of the slots with grenades. You've got a launcher, might as well be ready to lob a stun grenade, or a goo grenade, or an ion grenade, or.... Well, you get the point.

...Ok, I made myself light-headed again... I need to stop doing these things in such bursts... :smallsigh: Maybe next time, I'll talk about hiding a heavy-repeating blaster or missile launcher inside your armor.

[kuhaica]

Get some Stun and Eltroshock Grenades. The Stun may not be a good damage dealer but it's easier to bring someone's threshold down to zero then to kill them hp wise. And with Jedi or Sith. Even better. The Eltroshock one however deals both damage and threshold damage can can be upgraded to do insane amounts of damage. Plus. It's basically Lightning bolts. So get someone wet then chuck that. And you have something fried.

Another wonderful grenade is the radiation grenade. It deals a huge amount of damage and can knock people right down there condition track because of radiation (can be found on pg39 in Galaxy at War). The next grenade is the gas/smoke grenade. Its provides some wonderful mechanics to the game and can be filled with poison (found in Rebellion Era pg 49). Technically. Just ask your DM about that one. The last fun grenade i have for you is the Cyrbane grenade or 'Freeze Bomb' which deals both damage and debuffs enemies (found pg 69 in KotoR) Then you have your more mundane grenades.

Now, this is a suggestion for whoever becomes the techy of the group. They should ask if they can turn the energy packs into volatile explosives. If you can do this, and your ever going into a pinch make the Holy Plasma Grenade using only a remote detonator and bunch of energy packs. Its possible given star wars lore and fluff. But make sure its OK with your DM first, same with making custom weapons and custom ships if you ever get that far. It can be a lot of fun, I know i greatly enjoyed it, but you can spiral out of control quickly if your DM loses track on what your doing. And other players may feel underwhelmed by it as well.


Finally, the Reddit Resource which I use that has all the PDF's, Link (https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0B2CcDynJv7swYWRHNkRlZTZHV1E)

[Ken Murikumo]

Snip

I see what you mean about the cloak vs the upgrade. For whatever reason, i thought the armor mod did the same thing as the cloak.

As for the Binoculars, i choose them because i only had a few hours to learn the system, make a character, and go through 14 books. They do have a nightvision mode (darkvision) and it states, "out to the users normal range of sight," so i figured it wasnt magnified, just infrared. They were the closest thing to nightvision goggles i found.

I totally missed that sidebar, thanks!

I'm the guy with the gear, so any new toys i find, i will probably keep. The Dm gave us 70k to start the game and said anything we didn't spend we lose. i was left less than 3k and only because i was at 63.7kg out of my 64kg carry capacity. I do, indeed, have 2 bandoliers and a holster with a miniaturized missile launcher (just for fun)

thanks for all the help!


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I'll have to look into those grenades, thanks.

Also, you should remove that link. Linking to unofficial licensed content will get you in trouble.