Simple Gestalt Ideas

[razorback]

In our IRL game, one of our players boyfriend wants to sit in and play. Its currently a 3 man (well, 2 man and a woman) party. I'm Zen Archer Monk//Healbot+ Cleric, we have a Blackblade Magus//Arcanist, and a Warblade//Wizard. We are all 9th level. Only the Magus//Arcanist is really optimized, as we have been a 3 party group and gestalt was to shore up weaknesses.
I've been tasked with creating an easy for beginners 9th level 'something like Conan' Barbarian/X. Even though we do have one person playing a Warblade, I bought the DM some DSP books and she will probably transition into one of the PoW classes after next game.

What I need is help with an easy for beginners, 9th level, preferably single class on each side, non-caster build.
I'm thinking of making the other side rogue to give him more of a Conan-eque feel.

Any ideas or suggestions would be appreciated. Only Paizo as he technically has given permission for PoW... yet.

Thanks.

[Long_shanks]

Fighter (have your pick of archetype, Sensate/Lore Warden maybe)//Monk (again, any archetype)
Loads of feats to give options, great saves, loads of attacks, pretty easy to play.

Swashbuckler//Ninja
Full BAB, full sneak, you can go with fencing/slashing grace and TWF for massive damage output, class features are all keyed of charisma (ki pool, charmed life, ninja tricks).

Fighter (any archetype)//Rogue (any archetype)
Again, full BAB, full sneak, loads of feats. Lacks a bit of flavor compared to the first two options, but solid and easy to play.

Ranger//Paladin
Tracker and destroyer of evil. Between favored enemy and smite, evil creatures are going to get pummeled. This combination does get a bit of casting, but it could be an easy way to famaliarize a new player with the casting mechanics.

[magwaaf]

so we tried out a factotum/warblade one time... it was too good lol

[Jack_Simth]

What I need is help with an easy for beginners, 9th level, preferably single class on each side, non-caster build. At ninth, there's good odds that the player you end up building this for will feel gypped with a noncaster given the number of full casters in the party. The reason is power curves:

A melee-based character shines pretty well at low levels, but by mid levels is falling behind without a lot of player skill.
A skill-based character is about mid-range at pretty much all levels.
A full caster is fairly week early on without a lot of player skill, but climbs well and pretty much outshines everyone by mid levels.
Might I suggest a good melee build mixed with one of the "easy" casters with a good pre-built spell list? A Sorcerer, Oracle, or Psion (if permitted) is fairly easy to play (although picking spells/powers can be tricky) and gets around that particular problem. Combine with a melee or skill-based class that plays to the same stats and doesn't interfere too much (e.g., you don't mix a heavy-armor Paladin with a Sorcerer, but you do an Oracle), and it should be OK.

Paladin//Oracle is actually a particularly handy combination.

[razorback]

At ninth, there's good odds that the player you end up building this for will feel gypped with a noncaster given the number of full casters in the party. The reason is power curves:

A melee-based character shines pretty well at low levels, but by mid levels is falling behind without a lot of player skill.
A skill-based character is about mid-range at pretty much all levels.
A full caster is fairly week early on without a lot of player skill, but climbs well and pretty much outshines everyone by mid levels.
Might I suggest a good melee build mixed with one of the "easy" casters with a good pre-built spell list? A Sorcerer, Oracle, or Psion (if permitted) is fairly easy to play (although picking spells/powers can be tricky) and gets around that particular problem. Combine with a melee or skill-based class that plays to the same stats and doesn't interfere too much (e.g., you don't mix a heavy-armor Paladin with a Sorcerer, but you do an Oracle), and it should be OK.

Paladin//Oracle is actually a particularly handy combination.

I tried to explain this to him to but he watched us play a couple of times and, while interested, seemed intimidated at the prospect of being a caster.
I don't remember the numbers and I'm at work, but I suggested (since he was adamant about barbarian... 'cause, you know, Conan rocks) Barbarian/Inquisitor, going Infiltrator with Conversion domain along with whatever the Rage Power that gives a bonus to intimidate. He liked the idea until he read that Inquisitors cast spells. I might still take this route and tell him they are an option he may not ever exercise.

TBH, even though the rest of the group are full casters, we are mostly buffers/enhancers, so we would be able to buff him. No Batmen or Mailmen.

[lylsyly]

You mentioned Barbarian In the OP. a simple combination would be straight up Barbarian/Ranger (non casting variant).
Should be easy and fun to play. Or let him keep the spells, he don't have to use them, but maybe you can walk him through simple ones to let him try it out.

[JHShadon]

Going to second adding Monk into the mix if he wants to be Conan since the class would help him get away with fighting in just a loincloth, and the Martial Artist Archetype lets one become immune to fatigue which would help a Barbarian. Hell you could even give him a grappling focus just so he can put this rage power (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/barbarian/rage-powers/paizo---rage-powers/body-bludgeon-ex) to good use.

[Pex]

For the fun of the roleplay if not mechanically optimal: barbarian/druid. He wild shapes into an animal with rabies.

[razorback]

Going to second adding Monk into the mix if he wants to be Conan since the class would help him get away with fighting in just a loincloth, and the Martial Artist Archetype lets one become immune to fatigue which would help a Barbarian. Hell you could even give him a grappling focus just so he can put this rage power (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/barbarian/rage-powers/paizo---rage-powers/body-bludgeon-ex) to good use.

Not so sure about monk but I forgot about body bludgeon. Need to figure that out into the build. Thanks for the reminder.

[Peat]

Barbarian//Rogue sounds like it meets your needs pretty well. Ton of combat utility, plenty of skills, incredibly hard to kill providing no one targets Will Saves, and the ability to sneak anywhere and murderise people (well by mundane standards) will feel very Conan. Just remember to trade away the Trap/Danger Sense and Uncanny Dodge using archetypes on one side of the gestalt - probably Invulnerable Rager on the Barbarian side if we're shooting for Conan.

[Dekion]

I'm going to second (perhaps third or fourth, actually) Barbarian X//Monk X, but am going to suggest 1 level of Cleric on the Monk side, even if he doesn't use the abilities. With the Martial Artist archetype giving high saves across the board, immunity to fatigue and no alignment restrictions and Cleric opening the character to Crusader's flurry (pick a war god with a big nasty weapon and grab power attack) even if he's only getting 1x his Str bonus to damage, with the power attack bonus the player will feel pretty effective in combat. It's not optimized vs. a caster's abilities, but he should have a few skills, do decent damage in a fight, and have some minor healing for in between fights. Invulnerable Rager is an excellent archetype for the Barbarian as well, although I'm not a big fan of giving up the uncanny dodge chain, despite its situational use.

[Shinn]

I'll suggest Fighter X//Rogue X, as it fits more Conan's model in the novels. Here are the two reasons of why I suggest this one over Barbarian//Rogue :

- It's more simple to play a Fighter than a Barbarian, as you don't have to count Rage and fatigue ;
- You can have much more versatility with the feats, even compared to Barbarian's Rage Powers
- With that much feats, you can even afford the UA's alternate Multiclass rules to gain Inquisitor's Judgement.

Besides, remember him that a Rogue sneak attack isn't always a dagger's backstab, and that you can Sneak Attack without being the traditionnal sneaky coward Rogue : he can still do huge amounts of damage by only flanking.

Otherwise, I support Barbarian X//Rogue X, Rogue X//Monk X, Fighter X//Monk X and Fighter X//Barbarian X.

[Deaxsa]

Why not something ranged? That way he almost always has a way to contribute, even if he has less damage than, say, a charger. Also, do you want to give him something with special resources so that he can begin to understand it, or no?

[Ualaa]

In very general terms, from Gestalt you want full BAB, three good saves, enough skill points, and one active side vs one passive side.

You mentioned not wanting a caster, presumably for the difficulty of spells.

You could go with a build like Druid || Rogue.
And focus mostly on the wildshape aspect of the druid.
If the wisdom bonus is not there, or not there high enough for the highest of spells, that makes the build a bit simpler.
If the druid is happy with Lawful Neutral, you might consider Druid || Monk 01 / Rogue xx, as that will add WIS modifier to AC, and a lot of AC boosters are lost from Wildshape.
That will all depend on the relative level of optimization of the rest of the group.

For wildshape, stick with animal forms predominantly.
Skip most of the 3.broken feats that get you forms which are far stronger than a non-optimized party.
With animal, plant, and elemental forms, that is a ton of flexibility already.
Use knowledge to determine what the character is familiar with, and start him off with maxed ranks in Knowledge Nature, but probably not much if anything in other knowledges.

Sneak attack, but on a lower BAB class (but more attacks) should still result in a lot of damage.
The sheer joy of rolling a pile of extra d6s on attacks can be rather fun.
Lower level spells can be buffs, both for the druid and the party, without being too complicated for a newer player.

Druid || Rogue has maximum skill ranks (from class), has 3/4 BAB (not ideal, but not horrible) and three good saves.
So you have most of the stuff that you want from an ideal Gestalt build.
The druid is the active side, for the spells and wildshape; everything from the Rogue is passive and always on effects like sneak, skills, evasion etc.
That adds a trap/skill monkey to your team too.

[Lormador]

You could houserule in a 3.5 Gestalt classic strategy: put templates on one side and class levels on the other.

Like Barbarian X // Templates Y, Z, Q

It might be overpowered, but it'll sure be simple.

[razorback]

Thanks guys, I appreciate the advice but please read the original post.

New player, intimated by the magic system.
Wants to play Conan or as close to Conan as possible. The rest of the team has pretty much everything else covered.

Less concerned about optimization. I understand the theorycraft behind gestalt. Not what I'm asking.
I'm asking if there is a nice, streamlined build that is easy to understand and won't overwhelm and scare away a potential new player. As he watches the rest of us, he'll pick up on magic, wildshaping, manuevers, etc.

[lylsyly]

You mentioned Barbarian In the OP. a simple combination would be straight up Barbarian/Ranger (non casting variant).
Should be easy and fun to play. Or let him keep the spells, he don't have to use them, but maybe you can walk him through simple ones to let him try it out.

thing is, most people play this game usually equate power = spells

no spells = no power

why play if no power

[Shinn]

I'm asking if there is a nice, streamlined build that is easy to understand and won't overwhelm and scare away a potential new player. As he watches the rest of us, he'll pick up on magic, wildshaping, manuevers, etc.
I'm still on Fighter // Rogue then. However, it's for the novel's Conan, as I see more the movie's Conan as a Barbarian // Ranger. So I'll make both.

Here's how I would make that build and explain each option for a beginner : (without stats, advancement feats and skills, up to your player)

(Fighter Feats)
- Power Attack : you can hit stronger, but with less chance of hit.
- Exotic Weapon (Greatsword) : A big man usually comes with a big sword.
- Cleave / Greater Cleave : Mooks are weaker against you, as you can use their proximity to your advantage, thus allowing another attack to another foe very close each time you hit.
- Dodge : you're not easy to hit.

(Fighter Abilities)
- Courage +2 : you've seen pretty much everything, so you're not easily scared
- Weapon Training +1 : you've practiced enough with some kind of weapons for hitting harder and more often
- Armor Training +2 : you're used to wear armors, so you can manage to find them less cumbersome

(Rogue Abilities)
- Sneak Attack : You can take a foe off-guard, thus hitting weak spots. You can do that when you're flanking him with another PC, or when he doesn't know you're here.
- Trapfinding +4 / Trapsense +2 : Traps are harmful. You don't want to be harmed, so you've practiced to detect them more easily ; plus you're more protected against their effects.
- Improved Uncanny Dodge : As a master warrior, you've got a "sixth sense", helping you against ambushes and other people's sneak attacks.
- Evasion : thanks to your quickness, you're way better at escaping most of the dangers with an area of effect, such as a fireball blast.

(Rogue Talents)
- Bleeding Attack : your sneak attacks are more harmful, and does lingering damages by hitting vital spots.
- Iron Guts : you've seen enough horrible things to not getting sick of a pesky effect.
- Nimble Climber : if you fall of somewhere high, you can still reducing most of the damage by trying to grab the first thing you see.
- Powerful Sneak : When you get a sneak attack, it's stronger than with other Rogues.(Barbarian Abilities)
- Rage : sometimes, you're really angry, like, really really angry. And you start then to smash everything, ignoring the pain : so you hit stronger, more often and can pack a few more punches, but when it'll stop, you'll be very fatigued.
- Fast Movement : You live fast, and thus run faster than the civilized everyman.
- Uncanny Dodge / Improved Uncanny Dodge : as in the Novel Conan's build
- Trapsense +2 : as in the Novel Conan's build
- Damage Reduction 1/- : you're a juggernaut, an invulnerable warlord lead by his own determination : who needs an armor when you can reduce the dangerosity of a blow naturally ? (Doesn't apply against those pesky spellcasters)

(Barbarian Rage Powers)
- Superstition +4 : Magic is dangerous, and you're wary against those uses. So you can resist more easily against the spellcaster's effects, but if you're raging, you'll likely won't accept easily to use magic effects, even if harmless or buffing.
- Witch Hunter +3 : Spellcasters are, indeed, dangerous. When you're raging, you don't sustain your blows against them, dealing more damage.
- Increased Damage Reduction +1 : Crom favors the true warriors by helping them to overcome the blows. Thanks to Crom, when you're raging, your Damage Reduction is better.
- Powerful Blow : When you really need to damaging someone, once per rage, you can decide to grant it a few more dangerosity, and thus damages.

(Ranger Abilities)
- Favored Enemy (X +4, X +2) : You're especially powerful against some kinds of creatures : maybe you were in a war against them, maybe you have a grudge against them ; still, you hit them stronger, harder, and know them more.
- Track/Swift Tracker +4 : You know how to chase someone better, effectively tracking them with some success.
- Combat Styles (Power Attack) : As in Novel Conan's build
- Combat Styles (Cleave) : As in Novel Conan's build
- Hunter's Bond (Companions) : You can coordinate your group against one of your favored enemy, giving them some of your bonus against it.
- Favored Environment (X +4, X +2) / Woodland Strides : You're a traveler as much as a fighter : you've seen wonderous, but dangerous landscapes, and thus you know better how to protect against their lures and dangers, while covering your moves.
- Ranger Traps (4 + Wis mod) : You're used to live in the wild, and thus to create some traps for gathering food. You can create a snare trap, a pit trap, and a tripwire trap : while dishonorable in fight, it's certainly useful for protecting a camp.

[Psyren]

It looks like your group could use a skillmonkey. For simplicity I'd go Unchained Barbarian // Unchained Rogue. Make him Dex-focused and wear light armor. This will make him a melee powerhouse with high defenses (AC and reflex) and skills, as well as give him the ability to switch-hit with a bow when needed. Unchained Rage and full BAB will complement his Finesse and sneak attack nicely, and he will have lots of options in a fight between Rage Powers and Debilitating Injuries, without having to deal with all the complexities of spellcasting. If he decides he wants to dip his toes in some magic, just have him put points into UMD and throw him some wands and scrolls.