What Level Are You Finished With Training?

[Thrasher92]

I've been rereading the Drizzt series and have been thinking about Underdark characters. If a character were to finish training at the Magic School (Sorcere), the Fighter School (Melee-Magthere) or the Cleric School (Arach-Tinilith) what level do you think they would be?

I have been thinking of putting them at 8 as they graduate and 10 to be a "Master" at the school. Outside of that NPCs would have higher levels based on individual training. I wouldn't agree with level one... they might have to be that level just to begin training.

This doesn't need to apply to an Underdark setting... Just at what level would you think someone would complete normal training and set forth into the world of adventuring?

[Sigreid]

I would personally identify 5 as the level at which "book learning" even if it's martial drills becomes less valuable as you've mastered all of the basics and further advancement comes from experimentation.

[Naanomi]

Somewhat setting and class dependent. I could argue as low as 3 (when most classes get their subclass and this begin to 'specialize' significantly), or as high as... 9? Fifth level spells are mighty impressive, a good 'you've learned all we can teach you' point

[Potato_Priest]

I'd say 3. You probably have any abilities and subclasses that are going to be backstory significant at that point, like determining the fact that you came from a monastary that teaches the way of the open hand vs. shadow arts.

[Foxhound438]

definitely setting dependant- sometimes level 1 PC's are the most powerful people in an entire region (not including monsters there), and other times there's an entire city filled to the brim with L20 clerics and paladins with epic boons out the ass, so anything less than that is practically pathetic.

For the game I'm running now, level 5 is getting into the "super strong" level, while the most powerful person the party has encountered thus far is a level 9 warlock (that only lived long enough to get that strong because he was a vampire). The campaign started at level 3, and at that point they were pretty much in "noob" status, but able to handle some missions on their own.

[Kane0]

When one begins to throw around fireballs, revive the recently deceased or attack twice as fast as a guard or soldier one might think you've finished with being an apprentice.

So around level 5.

[Malifice]

This doesn't need to apply to an Underdark setting... Just at what level would you think someone would complete normal training and set forth into the world of adventuring?

At whatever level the campaign starts.

[comk59]

I would say at least level 5. It's when the characters are really set apart from the guards and bandits they face.

[Cespenar]

The drow schools are notoriously more harsh and intense than the surface, though. If one thing about the Drizzt series stands out, it's that sense of part-genetic part-engineered superiority that the drow have.

So at least 5 to graduate and 8-10 for a Master seems about right. On the surface, 3 to graduate is maybe more fitting.

[mephnick]

You are ridiculously powerful compared to the average person at level 8, I'd say you're far past "student". At level 3 most characters could solo a couple of orcs in battle whereas a regular orc would kill a normal citizen with no trouble. I think level 2 or 3 would be the highest I would consider someone in training. But I also run a world that's capped at level 12 so I guess I'm biased.

[Captain Morgan]

This is part of why having schools gets weird. A Bard who is starts at level 1 and who spends his time actively adventuring, for example. Why do your college features not kick in until you've spent a certain amount of time away from college?

It's not the end of the world, but it is part of why I like classes who get powers through granted means. A sorcerer can really be any level when their powers manifest. She can begin with cantrips or magic missile, or she could awaken with fire ball already. A Warlock, cleric, or paladin could yet their powers bestowed at whatever level the granter deems appropriate.

[Laereth]

You are ridiculously powerful compared to the average person at level 8, I'd say you're far past "student". At level 3 most characters could solo a couple of orcs in battle whereas a regular orc would kill a normal citizen with no trouble. I think level 2 or 3 would be the highest I would consider someone in training. But I also run a world that's capped at level 12 so I guess I'm biased.

I agree with that sentiment. The way I've set it up in my campaign I had the players start at 3 since that's where I saw the "training" be completed. They are Junior Knights, Junior Clerics, etc.

Level 5 is where martials get 2 attacks per turn which puts them at a similar level to the Knight and Veteran NPCs, as such I see level 5 as something more advanced than somebody who JUST finished his training.

Level 9 is where spellcasters get 5th level spells and are on par with the Mage NPC. I see that has having mastered all levels of "mundane" magic, since above 5th level spells you only ever get 1 slot / spell level (aside from demi-god levels of 19 and 20). I see anything above as something only masters can tackle. Therefore characters of 9th level have become masters of their craft and can advance to learn stuff above the reach of most mere mortals.

TLDR in my campaign

1st level: Trainee
3rd level: Junior
5th level: Experienced
9th level: Master

[Âmesang]

I tend to imagine 1st-level characters as being "graduates." They may not be super powered or have even attained their archetype yet, but they still would have spent (presumably) years training themselves to fight with a wide variety of weapons, how to fight with a variety of armors, studying and practicing a number of skills and tools, and utilizing their base class abilities that put them above and beyond your typical commoner.

(In the case of my current drow "antipaladin" that would have required her to have studied under the influence of both Arach-Tinilith and Melee-Magthere, giving her that balance between warrior and priestess… with a little rogue/assassin tossed in for her eventual multiclass.)

EDIT: I still like the 3rd Edition notion that a character of at least 11th-level is considered to be "legendary."

[Deleted]

I've been rereading the Drizzt series and have been thinking about Underdark characters. If a character were to finish training at the Magic School (Sorcere), the Fighter School (Melee-Magthere) or the Cleric School (Arach-Tinilith) what level do you think they would be?

I have been thinking of putting them at 8 as they graduate and 10 to be a "Master" at the school. Outside of that NPCs would have higher levels based on individual training. I wouldn't agree with level one... they might have to be that level just to begin training.

This doesn't need to apply to an Underdark setting... Just at what level would you think someone would complete normal training and set forth into the world of adventuring?

Right after you go from having just a background to having a background and a class level (so, level 1).

[DivisibleByZero]

At whatever level the campaign starts.

This.
The real answer is arguably level 1. That's when you are no longer a commoner, so to speak.
The more commonly accepted answer is probably level 3. That's when all of the classes have achieved their specialty. But I'd argue that by that point, you were actually finished "training" quite a long time ago.
The people claiming it would be 5 or 8 or whatever are being ridiculous. If that were the case, then every single peon mook from the city watch would be minimum level 5.

Level 1 is the correct answer. For those unwilling to accept that correct answer, level 3 will suffice. Nothing more.

[JakOfAllTirades]

I'm gonna go all philosophical and say "At whatever level the campaign ends, or when your character dies. Whichever comes first."

Because real adventurers never stop training.

Or something like that.

Insert inspiring background to complete your D&D meme of the day.

[Falcon X]

The context of Menzoberranzen only applies to Menzoberranzen as they take noble blood and put them through training far beyond what most militaries would.
That being said, here is my analysis of it:

During book 2, we see one of the greatest priestesses casting Animate Dread Warrior (http://alcyius.com/dndtools/spells/unapproachable-east--33/animate-dread-warrior--3468/index.html) as a ritual, and it being considered maxing out her powers. As a level 6 spell, that puts Menzoberanzen's greatest priestesses around Level 12.
I would say that their masters in wizardry and fighting are about the same, though Lady Baenre, Drizzt, and Gromph have likely surpassed that.

In 5e, the monster manual puts their spellcasters with 5th level spells. While they don't line up perfectly with the book, it would appear that their established fighters, mages, and priestesses are around Level 9.

In book 1, Drizzt himself cast level 2 spells, and, while gifted, had trained only a fraction of actual Sorcere students. Therefore graduates of Sorcere should be able to cast at least 3rd level spells.
If we take Level 9 as the average mage, and Level 12 as the best mages, then I would say that Sorcere graduates are Level 6-7.

I conclude that:
Non-Noble Blooded Drow: Level 1-3
New Graduates: Level 6-7
Established Warriors: Level 8-9
The Best of the Best: Level 10-12
Drizzt, Gromph, Lady Baenre: Level 16+

For normal humans:
The bulk of the military: Level 1-3
Special forces/Assassins: Level 4-8
The Most Powerful Warrior in the Kingdom: Level 10+
One in a Generation in a World: Level 15+

[Millstone85]

Perhaps that's the boring answer, but I would stay close to how the PHB defines the typical "tiers of play":
Apprentice Adventurers: levels 1-4
Independent Adventurers: levels 5-10
Mighty Adventurers: levels 11-16
Heroic Archetypes: levels 17-20

[SethoMarkus]

The context of Menzoberranzen only applies to Menzoberranzen as they take noble blood and put them through training far beyond what most militaries would.
That being said, here is my analysis of it:

During book 2, we see one of the greatest priestesses casting Animate Dread Warrior (http://alcyius.com/dndtools/spells/unapproachable-east--33/animate-dread-warrior--3468/index.html) as a ritual, and it being considered maxing out her powers. As a level 6 spell, that puts Menzoberanzen's greatest priestesses around Level 12.
I would say that their masters in wizardry and fighting are about the same, though Lady Baenre, Drizzt, and Gromph have likely surpassed that.

In 5e, the monster manual puts their spellcasters with 5th level spells. While they don't line up perfectly with the book, it would appear that their established fighters, mages, and priestesses are around Level 9.

In book 1, Drizzt himself cast level 2 spells, and, while gifted, had trained only a fraction of actual Sorcere students. Therefore graduates of Sorcere should be able to cast at least 3rd level spells.
If we take Level 9 as the average mage, and Level 12 as the best mages, then I would say that Sorcere graduates are Level 6-7.

I conclude that:
Non-Noble Blooded Drow: Level 1-3
New Graduates: Level 6-7
Established Warriors: Level 8-9
The Best of the Best: Level 10-12
Drizzt, Gromph, Lady Baenre: Level 16+

For normal humans:
The bulk of the military: Level 1-3

I would agree with this, for Underdark societies at least.

For "normal" races in the surface, I would probably break it down like this:

Level 1 - Trainee/Apprentice: You have completed rudimentary training and are at "trained conscript" level of proficiency. This would be like High School Graduate level; guards at a small town or assistants are at this level.

Level 3 - Graduate/Junior Knight: You have completed specialized training setting you apart from the average population. This would be like a Bachelor's Degree holder; elite City guards, veteran soldiers, specialized shopkeepers (alchemists, small magic shops), and head clergy of a small town are at this level.

Level 5 - Knight/Professional/Master: You have completed all that can be taught by conventional means and, at least compared to the general population, you are a Master in your field. This would be like a Master's Degree holder; teachers and professors, elite soldiers and officers, and head clergy of regional branches of a relgious order are at this level.

Level 9 - General/Grand-Master: You are at the top of the foodchain and others look up to you and seek your guidance. This would be like a Doctorate holder; headmasters of prestigious schools, veteran generals, heads of religious orders are at this level.

Level 11+ - Legends: You are among the top of your field ever to walk the land. Tales will be told of you for ages to come. Masters and Grand-Masters alike come to you for guidance. You are the wise old monk living on the mountain having attained Enlightenment. You are the Arch-Wizard or Sorcerer able to alter the course of history as an afterthought. You are the God-King warrior, able to lay waste to entire kingdoms. But you know you are not at the top, you have much more to grow and learn, for if you have learned just one thing over your career, it is that there is always someone stronger somewhere out there.


But, then I am also partial to lower-powered campaigns, so am likely biased as well.

[Vogonjeltz]

I would personally identify 5 as the level at which "book learning" even if it's martial drills becomes less valuable as you've mastered all of the basics and further advancement comes from experimentation.

The PHB identifies characters as apprentice adventurers from levels 1-4 (PHB 15), so you are right on track.

[Chaosmancer]

Guess it depends on what we mean by training. If it's training for the city watch, level 1 seems fine, if we're talking "hero school" were the players start as trouble making 1st years who are training to be defenders of light and justice (Thinking Harry Potter, RWBY, Sky High ect) then it has to be 5th level.

The biggest jump in power in the game is 4th to 5th, and before that point rather mundane encounters can still be incredibly dangerous. If your school doesn't graduate you until a bandit camp is pop quiz instead of your final, then it has to be when you are strong enough to be able to fight when out-numbered, and with extra attack and the 3rd level classic spells coming into play, that's almost always 5th.

Mastery i feel like is 11th, legendary hits around 15th or 17th i think. You probably aren't a legendary wizard if you can't Gate, though your name can be well known long before that if you follow standard adventurer protocols

Now granted if we're talking a grittier world, I'd say 2nd or 3rd for most classes. 1st level feels to me more like you left before your training was finished than here's a diploma.

[Ruslan]

If we are to trust the fluff of the Paladin class, training ends at level 3.


The final oath, taken when he or she reaches 3rd level, is the culmination of all the paladin’s training.

[Cespenar]

Drow babies are born at level 3, though.

[Saiga]

If we are to trust the fluff of the Paladin class, training ends at level 3.

I came here to say this, yeah. That's pretty explicit for the Paladin at least, and I would assume the other classes are meant to have the same progression.

[Âmesang]

This makes me want to bring back level titles in some fashion. :smalltongue:

[Amaril]

This is the power scale I usually assume. I originally settled on it for 3.5, but I think it still holds up well enough in 5e.

1st and 2nd level: "Apprentice". You're still in training; you've learned enough already to stand above the average person, but just barely. You're unprepared, in over your head against the threats you have to face. Every victory is a struggle.

3rd and 4th level: "Professional". You've completed your training, and are now a "real" member of your class. People trust you to deal with most routine threats.

5th and 6th level: "Veteran". You've been at it a while, and developed a reputation, probably as one of the best in the region. People will seek out your help dealing with exceptional circumstances.

7th and 8th level: "Master". You're one of the best in the world at what you do. If you're part of an organization, like a knightly order or a wizard's college, you're on its high council, or possibly the leader. This is as high as I generally like my games to go, though that's just my preference.

9th and 10th level: "Hero". You're a legend, the best who's ever lived. If there's a world-ending threat looming, you're the one to deal with it.

11th+ level: You're up there with the gods. In my worlds, no mortal has ever reached this level of power.

[Vogonjeltz]

If we are to trust the fluff of the Paladin class, training ends at level 3.

For their Path, not as an adventurer per se. "When you reach 3rd level, you swear the oath that binds you as a paladin forever. Up to this time you have been in a preparatory stage, committed to the path but not yet sworn to it." (PHB 85) The quote you even used is, in context, the point at which they become a Paladin for realsies, it doesn't speak to the end of their training as an adventurer per se.

[Xetheral]

At whatever level the campaign starts.

Is there truly no starting level at which you'd permit character backstories to include adventuring or other post-training exploits?

[Naanomi]

Is there truly no starting level at which you'd permit character backstories to include adventuring or other post-training exploits?
Or for their first adventure to be part of their training?