Does powerful build have effects in a fight? [Archive]

Jarlhen

2017-02-01, 09:29 AM

Let him throw the enemy. Same rules as lifting anything else. It's in the PHB. He can probably throw an enemy a couple of squares. Damage might be 1d4, no ability modifier. The enemy gets up the next round and comes back at him. Essentially a slightly more powerful shove that forces the enemy a bit further. It'd be an action as lifting someone is more time consuming than just holding on to them or giving a quick push.

This kind of stuff always pops up and while it may sound cool it's pretty much entirely useless. If I grabbed a goblin and used it to hit another goblin I'd not be proficient, it's not even an improvised weapon, it's a squirming mass of softness. The damage is going to be minimal. I've had people thrown at me, I've had people jump at me, it's a bit of a thud but realistically a single punch to the face is way more devastating. In a super realistic system you might get some bad luck and actually break something in the fall. But that's not 5e. So as far as I'm concerned, let him waste his action if he wants to do.

Then there's the other side where the DM just submits to everything the player wants in the name of fun. If that's the kind of game you're running then treat it like they're swinging an improvised weapon with maul damage to hit someone. Let them do a str check to throw (obviously athletics grapple first to grab the creature) and for every 5 on the dice let that be how many yards the enemy is thrown. Add fall damage (1d6/10ft) plus str modifier for total damage.

BiPolar

2017-02-01, 09:41 AM

With Powerful Build you count as " You count as one size larger when determining your carrying capacity and the weight you can push, drag, or lift."

When Moving a Grappled Creature, your speed is halved unless the creature is two or more sizes smaller than you.

Those two items together means that unless you are grappling a Small creature, your speed will remain halved when moving a grappled creature.

The other aspect of this is your capability to grapple a Huge creature. Standard grapple rules allow you to only grapple a creature one size larger than you, which would be Large for a standard Medium size creature. Powerful Build allows you to grapple a Huge creature.

So the Powerful Build will only do two things that change the mechanics:

1. They can move a grappled Small creature their full movement. Unless someone has cast Enlarge on the Orc. Then they could do so with a Medium creature.
2. They can grapple a Huge monster.

Deleted

2017-02-01, 09:51 AM

Ok :) and of he wants to throw the enemy?

Keep it simple.

(note: I've been tinkering with this as I want to add it to my homebrew but not sure I have it where I want it. It is based off some maneuvers in the DMG)

Throw

When you have a creature grappled you may perform a Throw Attack. Make an unarmed attack (this lets monks use dex) and compare the result against the target's Athletics or Acrobatics check. If they succeed then nothing happens. If the target fails, they are thrown up to a number of feet equal to your Strength or Dexterity score. The creature lands prone in the spot and takes Strength or Dexterity modifier damage.

You may only throw a creature that weighs up to a certain poundage depending on how many hands you are using.

1 Handed Throw: Half Strength or Dexterity Score distance, may throw a creature weighing up to 15 X Strength Score (max 300 lbs).

2 Handed Throw: May throw a creature weighing up to 20 X Strength Score (max 400 lbs).

BiPolar

2017-02-01, 09:55 AM

Keep it simple.

(note: I've been tinkering with this as I want to add it to my homebrew but not sure I have it where I want it. It is based off some maneuvers in the DMG)

Throw

When you have a creature grappled you may perform a Throw Attack. Make an unarmed attack (this lets monks use dex) and compare the result against the target's Athletics or Acrobatics check. If they succeed then nothing happens. If the target fails, they are thrown up to a number of feet equal to your Strength or Dexterity score. The creature lands prone in the spot and takes Strength or Dexterity modifier damage.

You may only throw a creature that weighs up to a certain poundage depending on how many hands you are using.

1 Handed Throw: Half Strength or Dexterity Score distance, may throw a creature weighing up to 15 X Strength Score (max 300 lbs).

2 Handed Throw: May throw a creature weighing up to 20 X Strength Score (max 400 lbs).

This is kinda cool, but for Feuerphoenix, please note this is a homerule, not RAW.

For Deleted: Would you allow Dex/Acrobatics at all? Thinking of Judo style throwing that uses a reaction and Dex rather than an Action and strength.

jaappleton

2017-02-01, 09:59 AM

BiPolar

2017-02-01, 10:01 AM

It also impacts what you can push, pull, and lift, correct?

So while it may not apply to grapple or damage... It certainly applies to the environment. Lift up a portcullis? Throw your shoulder into a support beam and see if you can take it out?

It depends on how creative your DM lets you get.

Plus, when you combine it with the lv6 Bear Totem of the Barbarian... what you can lift and move becomes pretty crazy.

I was going to bring that up (bear totem 6th level) as a means to act like a Huge creature (which is also what Enlarge does).

For the mechanical affects on environment, I think the DM just has to lower the DC for those activities, or simply hand-wave them and say they did it for some.

jaappleton

2017-02-01, 10:08 AM

I was going to bring that up (bear totem 6th level) as a means to act like a Huge creature (which is also what Enlarge does).

For the mechanical affects on environment, I think the DM just has to lower the DC for those activities, or simply hand-wave them and say they did it for some.

I was in a game with a Dragonborn Paladin. I was a Half Orc Bear Barbarian. We had to get into an ancient temple, the doors sealed. He said, "I got it!" and rolled repeatedly as he tried many times to open the door. Pulling, pushing, lifting, throwing his shoulder into it, etc.

I just casually opened it with one hand. I've never seen the player so pissed. :smallbiggrin:

Deleted

2017-02-01, 10:11 AM

This is kinda cool, but for Feuerphoenix, please note this is a homerule, not RAW.

For Deleted: Would you allow Dex/Acrobatics at all? Thinking of Judo style throwing that uses a reaction and Dex rather than an Action and strength.

That's why I've been tinkering with it.

The issue is that Judo does take grace, been there done that, but in real life Strength and Dexterity are tied to each other a lot of the time. Honestly D&D could combine the two into one stat but I'm not messing with that.

I think for all purposes leaving it as an Attack versus Athletics or Acrobatics works well enough, keeps expertise out of it most of the time (not a lot of monsters have expertise), and leaves the monk to be the Jujitsu guy ( Judo is the sport, it is essentially the sport of jujitsu "At the time a few bujitsu (martial arts) experts still existed but bujitsu was almost abandoned by the nation at large. Even if I wanted to teach jujitsu most people had now stopped thinking about it. So I thought it better to teach under a different name principally because my objectives were much wider than jujitsu." - Kano).

A Dex unarmed strike would be allowed under the monk, but the weight of an enemy you could throw would still be controlled by strength.

Normal
Attack Action (strength unarmed strike) versus Athletics or Acrobatics
Dmg: Str Mod
Distance: Strength or Dexterity Score
Weight: Strength Score X modifier

Monk
Attack Action (Str or Dex unarmed strike) versus Athletics or Acrobatics
Dmg: Str or Dex Mod
Distance: Strength or Dexterity Score
Weight: Strength Score X modifier

Keeps the monk at their niche but allows pure strength builds to be a bit better at it.

BiPolar

2017-02-01, 10:11 AM

I was in a game with a Dragonborn Paladin. I was a Half Orc Bear Barbarian. We had to get into an ancient temple, the doors sealed. He said, "I got it!" and rolled repeatedly as he tried many times to open the door. Pulling, pushing, lifting, throwing his shoulder into it, etc.

I just casually opened it with one hand. I've never seen the player so pissed. :smallbiggrin:

That's fantastic. It's events like that that would make my character rethink his decision to be a paladin :)

In one of my games relatively early on my Bard witnessed our War Cleric of Bane successfully turn 8 undead at once. Being that my character was only in it for money and fame, he saw that display of power and said, "I gotta get me some of that" and promptly sold his soul to Bane for a level of Warlock.

BiPolar

2017-02-01, 10:13 AM

That's why I've been tinkering with it.

The issue is that Judo does take grace, been there done that, but in real life Strength and Dexterity are tied to each other a lot of the time. Honestly D&D could combine the two into one stat but I'm not messing with that.

I think for all purposes leaving it as an Attack versus Athletics or Acrobatics works well enough, keeps expertise out of it most of the time (not a lot of monsters have expertise), and leaves the monk to be the Jujitsu guy ( Judo is the sport, it is essentially the sport of jujitsu "At the time a few bujitsu (martial arts) experts still existed but bujitsu was almost abandoned by the nation at large. Even if I wanted to teach jujitsu most people had now stopped thinking about it. So I thought it better to teach under a different name principally because my objectives were much wider than jujitsu." - Kano).

A Dex unarmed strike would be allowed under the monk, but the weight of an enemy you could throw would still be controlled by strength.

Normal
Attack Action (strength unarmed strike) versus Athletics or Acrobatics
Dmg: Str Mod
Distance: Strength or Dexterity Score
Weight: Strength Score X modifier

Monk
Attack Action (Str or Dex unarmed strike) versus Athletics or Acrobatics
Dmg: Str or Dex Mod
Distance: Strength or Dexterity Score
Weight: Strength Score X modifier

Keeps the monk at their niche but allows pure strength builds to be a bit better at it.

That's kind of why I suggested making it a reaction (if you have on available...how would ou have one available? Maybe it's a readied action?). That seems more Judo to me. You don't try and throw someone, you wait for them to come at you and use their own momentum against them.

Mith

2017-02-01, 10:15 AM

Let him throw the enemy. Same rules as lifting anything else. It's in the PHB. He can probably throw an enemy a couple of squares. Damage might be 1d4, no ability modifier. The enemy gets up the next round and comes back at him. Essentially a slightly more powerful shove that forces the enemy a bit further. It'd be an action as lifting someone is more time consuming than just holding on to them or giving a quick push.

This kind of stuff always pops up and while it may sound cool it's pretty much entirely useless. If I grabbed a goblin and used it to hit another goblin I'd not be proficient, it's not even an improvised weapon, it's a squirming mass of softness. The damage is going to be minimal. I've had people thrown at me, I've had people jump at me, it's a bit of a thud but realistically a single punch to the face is way more devastating. In a super realistic system you might get some bad luck and actually break something in the fall. But that's not 5e. So as far as I'm concerned, let him waste his action if he wants to do.

I would say that you do the 1d4 damage, but a potential Intimidation check of going against an opponent that is beating you with a buddy. Not saying it has to be a huge DC, but I feel like something creative like that either has some benefits, or you let your players know ahead of time that this would be mostly ineffective. Your characters are not going to be superhuman at level 1, but I would think the martial proficiency they would have would equate to enough knowledge to know what to expect from certain actions.

BiPolar

2017-02-01, 10:19 AM

I would say that you do the 1d4 damage, but a potential Intimidation check of going against an opponent that is beating you with a buddy. Not saying it has to be a huge DC, but I feel like something creative like that either has some benefits, or you let your players know ahead of time that this would be mostly ineffective. Your characters are not going to be superhuman at level 1, but I would think the martial proficiency they would have would equate to enough knowledge to know what to expect from certain actions.

I'm not really sure how mechanically the size would be a difference? Shoving a creature is only limited by one size larger than you with no advantage given to those smaller than you (which, I admit, is kind of weird.) So the greater size would let you shove something bigger than what you normally could shove, which makes sense, but that's about it.

Deleted

2017-02-01, 10:22 AM

That's kind of why I suggested making it a reaction (if you have on available...how would ou have one available? Maybe it's a readied action?). That seems more Judo to me. You don't try and throw someone, you wait for them to come at you and use their own momentum against them.

Combat in D&D goes by pretty quickly, each round is 6 seconds.

Your actions in a D&D game are essentially what would be reactions in real life. But D&D isn't a one for one with real world stuff so take it as you will.

Just leave it as an action, hell, I would just allow it to replace an attack in part of the attack action and I think it wouldn't be all that unbalanced...

Part of me wants to say 1/turn but another part of me wants to let high level fighters eldritch knights with haste/expeditious retreat Throw + move + throw + move + throw etc... Because that is awesome and martials need more awesome sauce on the martial burrito.

Fluff it however you want when you go into specifics (use a ready action to throw someone that comes up to you), but a majority of fantasy that D&D is based on is the type of stuff where you say "I'm throwing him through a window" and then you go and grab the bard that is hitting on your favorite wench and do just that.

BiPolar

2017-02-01, 10:24 AM

Fluff it however you want when you go into specifics (use a ready action to throw someone that comes up to you), but a majority of fantasy that D&D is based on is the type of stuff where you say "I'm throwing him through a window" and then you go and grab the bard that is hitting on your favorite wench and do just that.

Heh, the Bard will probably mess the fighter up :) Cutting words and double proficiency and whatnot :D Or at least, my bard would.

Feuerphoenix

2017-02-01, 10:25 AM

BiPolar

2017-02-01, 10:32 AM

This exactly how I measured it. After a grapple comes a strength(athletics) check, and he can throw his foe Arround these feet far. For every 5 feed he gets a 1d6 bludeoning damage + any enviroment damage (throwing into the fire, or throwing it towards another enemy). Enemy recieves half the damage, and the thrown foe takes another 1-2D6 damage :P

Adding damage I think is a bit too much, but I may be the lone voice against it. Standard shoving does NOT do this, and typically falling damage is for when you've fallen greater than 10'. and 1-2d6 is pretty significant, especially at lower levels.

Personally, I'd just run it as RAW with greater ability to deal with bigger beasts, that alone is a pretty big deal. To be able to grapple/shove a Huge Monster is pretty amazing. But I also don't tinker a ton and am pretty happy with how the system works.

Deleted

2017-02-01, 10:34 AM

This exactly how I measured it. After a grapple comes a strength(athletics) check, and he can throw his foe Arround these feet far. For every 5 feed he gets a 1d6 bludeoning damage + any enviroment damage (throwing into the fire, or throwing it towards another enemy). Enemy recieves half the damage, and the thrown foe takes another 1-2D6 damage :P

That's way too strong on the damage side.

Really throwing a creature straight down will do much more damage than throwing them further, as they can tuck n roll with the far throw (or have time to put themself in a defensive position when they hit). Throwing a creature straight down gives them no such time...

But this game doesn't really connect to real world 1:1... But that damage you have above is just a bit redonkulous.

Feuerphoenix

2017-02-01, 10:52 AM

Sorry I meant 10 ft, no sleep since some time :P

Yes from a realism side it is BS, but from a playstyle side it would make no sense playing it out like this, when you have to give up that much.

BiPolar

2017-02-01, 10:59 AM

Deleted

2017-02-01, 11:01 AM

Sorry I meant 10 ft, no sleep since some time :P

Yes from a realism side it is BS, but from a playstyle side it would make no sense playing it out like this, when you have to give up that much.

The reason why I made it part of the attack action is so that it is still worth doing.

Damage isn't the only thing worth doing, sometimes you need to get enemies to stop grouping together. Having a martial controller is something that hasn't happened in a while (Monk are magical btw... Ki is magic).

When you have a creature grappled you can use your attack action to throw and then attack a different creature OR move up and attack the creature you just threw. The added benefit of control is worth giving up some damage for.

Plus it's just so damn cool. lol.

Feuerphoenix

2017-02-01, 11:08 AM

Throwing costs the full action on my table. And as it is not an attack, it becomes pretty tough to do anything else on that turn :D

BiPolar

2017-02-01, 11:12 AM

Throwing costs the full action on my table. And as it is not an attack, it becomes pretty tough to do anything else on that turn :D

Ah, gotcha. So you already have a homerule on throwing. I don't really see the issue with that, as Deleted said. Control is a big deal and using your action to remove someone from combat makes a lot of sense. Adding damage on top is too much. You basically took the RAW Shove action and made it more powerful. Stacking damage is excessive.

Deleted

2017-02-01, 11:20 AM

Throwing costs the full action on my table. And as it is not an attack, it becomes pretty tough to do anything else on that turn :D

You are punishing people who want to branch out and not do damage... Ouch.

I wasn't aware you already had a houserule in place.

If you want people to be able to do something, you should make it worth doing and you should give an incentive. The answer isn't always "damage", each and every character can do enough damage to keep up with the game and the characters that would throw can already outpace the game without throwing. Allowing them to throw + attack once (most martials) would be a better way to go about it as it makes the game more dynamic.

Or just don't allow throwing... *shrug*

Sception

2017-02-01, 11:21 AM

If you're playing in a game with the stricter variant encumbrance rules, powerful build lets you fight unencumbered without dropping your pack (which anyone else generally needs to do), and thus allows you to walk around everywhere with your weapons equipped and readied. Normally this doesn't matter too much, since dropping the pack is generally free, and drawing your weapons come free with your first round of movement. But it matters for shield wielders, since it takes an action to equip the shield (and it can't rightly be equipped to begin with, not gonna get a shoulder strap over your shield arm to take off the pack).

It also matters if you want to keep alternate weapon options with you during the fight while remaining unencumbered, because even high strength characters are already pushing the unencumbered limit with just heavy armor and a single weapon set. Again, normally doesn't matter, but if you're say a strength fighter or paladin who likes to keep a handful of javelins on your pack for ranged options it can come up.

Being able to fight unencumbered with a huge hiking pack also avoids the risk of having packs stolen during combat, a favored tactic of weedy enemies like goblins and kobolds in games that use encumbrance rules to force pack-drops during fights.

Again, this is only if the stricter variant encumbrance rules are in effect, which rarely seems to be the case ime, due to the tedius hassle of tracking weight.

BiPolar

2017-02-01, 11:25 AM

You are punishing people who want to branch out and not do damage... Ouch.

I wasn't aware you already had a houserule in place.

If you want people to be able to do something, you should make it worth doing and you should give an incentive. The answer isn't always "damage", each and every character can do enough damage to keep up with the game and the characters that would throw can already outpace the game without throwing. Allowing them to throw + attack once (most martials) would be a better way to go about it as it makes the game more dynamic.

Or just don't allow throwing... *shrug*

Personally, I'd just remove the Throwing "action". Shove is already a possibility to replace an Attack, so if you have additional attacks you can still do things. And the Orc can shove Huge creatures. That's a neat trick.