Fighter subclass help

[MustacheManny]

So my fighter will be reaching level 3 soon so I've been thinking about which subclass I'd like to pick up. Our party is pretty well rounded with a rouge, archery based fighter, cleric, wizard, barbarian, and me. I think eldritch knight is out because my int score is pretty average, unless I'm missing something here and don't need a fantastic int score. Any thoughts on favorite fighter subclass?

[ChampionWiggles]

Eldritch Knight is really the type of subclass you had to plan ahead and see the features are INT dependent. We have a Rogue in one of my parties that went Arcane Trickster without realizing her spellcasting ability was supposed to be INT and her INT isn't great, so she's really struggling. So if that's the case, go with Battle Master. Champion isn't a very nice archetype, just because it's...boring. It's really boring, because all you really get are basic attacks.

[Solunaris]

Well, it all depends on what you want to do with your Fighter.

Need a bit of staying power in combat and some situational help when in sticky situations? Then the Eldritch Knight is totally for you. Between Absorb Elements and Shield, you'll be damn hard to knock over and early on things like Booming Blade will make enemies think twice before charging after your squishier friends. And then you get access to things like Feather Fall (because when you need it, you really need it), Minor Illusion and Mage Hand. It adds a spell casting flavor to your character and possibly helps with the out of combat RP portions. Better in parties that don't like short rests.

Want amazing things added to your sword swings? Go no further than the Battlemaster. Picking the correct maneuvers will make your Rogue love you, your Barbarian growl affectionately at you and your Wizard breath a sigh of relief. Is there an enemy with a big stick? Opps, you made him drop it. What about an enemy caster with some sort of fancy wand? It's yours now. How about that big, hard to hit enemy Fighter in bulky plate armor with a shield? Well, everyone gets advantage because you used your big stick to knock him on his ass. This subclass adds the most "in-combat" options for Fighters that like swinging a sword every round. Better in parties that like short rests.

Don't want to think about all those fancy maneuvers or don't have the brains for book-learn'en? The Champion is about as pure Fighter as it gets. If you want to be the most Fightery Fighter that ever Fightered then this subclass has your back. More crits? Nothing has anything on the Champion. Two fighting styles? You bet. Better Strength and Dexterity checks? Well, the Rogue has got you beat but at least you won't be as bad as the Wizard. Honestly, I find this subclass to be the most boring mechanically, but it is the best at dealing out raw damage of the three once you get to the higher levels. If you like rolling lots of dice often, then this one is for you. Better in parties that don't like short rests.

[Sigreid]

IMO the champion is only boring if you and your DM make it that way. The Battle Master has maneuvers that give him an edge at certain tactical moves, but the champion is still a well rounded full contact adventurer. You just gotta use your imagination and your skills.

[ChubbyRain]

So my fighter will be reaching level 3 soon so I've been thinking about which subclass I'd like to pick up. Our party is pretty well rounded with a rouge, archery based fighter, cleric, wizard, barbarian, and me. I think eldritch knight is out because my int score is pretty average, unless I'm missing something here and don't need a fantastic int score. Any thoughts on favorite fighter subclass?

Eldritch Knight can thrive with an Int of 8.

Use magic to support, not to attack, and you will do fine.

The issue is that both champion and battle master are quite boring. One is just "move an attack" and the other one starts out ok but you quickly learn that your character isn't growing and you are at level 15 but you know the same maneuvers as a level 3 fighter.

A level 3 battle master's menacing attack is no different from a level 20's menacing attack. Within your tier, your accuracy is going to be aout the same, so landing the hit wont be any different... The effect doesn't change... So... Yeah that sucks.

I would go Eldritch Knight, I dont love the subclass but it actually gives you stuff that grows and you won't be the same character at 8, 15, or 20 as you were at 3.

[Specter]

If you're okay with only using spells for your own defensive purposes, then go EK.

If you want some tactical benefits for you and your team, go Battlemaster.

If you want to be pushing good damage without worrying about rests, go Champion.

[bid]

BM does the most damage with riposte or commander's on the rogue.

EK does well with booming blade and adds utilities. It's stronger if you don't use a shield.

Champion only becomes useful once you get remarkable athlete, with a +2 on raw stunts.


All archetype are interesting after level 7.

[Deleted]

BM does the most damage with riposte or commander's on the rogue.

EK does well with booming blade and adds utilities. It's stronger if you don't use a shield.

Champion only becomes useful once you get remarkable athlete, with a +2 on raw stunts.


All archetype are interesting after level 7.

Champion doesn't become useful because of remarkable athlete.

The only time Champions are useful are in thought scenarios of when they can keep going all day hen others have to rest... Even though they need to rest with the group as going alone would get them killed.


Champion is only useful at level 18 and even then they have to rest when the party rests... Don't you know, you never split the party.

[Alejandro]

So my fighter will be reaching level 3 soon so I've been thinking about which subclass I'd like to pick up. Our party is pretty well rounded with a rouge, archery based fighter, cleric, wizard, barbarian, and me. I think eldritch knight is out because my int score is pretty average, unless I'm missing something here and don't need a fantastic int score. Any thoughts on favorite fighter subclass?

Go against the mold and take the Banneret path. :) Your cleric will love you for being able to share Second Wind goodness with that rogue, barbarian, and the other fighter. At 10th, those same characters will love you for Inspiring Surge.

[BigONotation]

I've yet to hear an account where the adventuring day is so long repeatedly that the champion thrives.

[Deleted]

I've yet to hear an account where the adventuring day is so long repeatedly that the champion thrives.

Even if it does... The game assumes it wont.

The whole notion that the Champion can "keep going" is silly as they will have to stop whenever their party stops. If the party can't keep going then the Fighter is screwed.

[Fishyninja]

I have just hit my archtype for Fighter and I went with Battlemaster. I have played one session of it so far.

I picked Riposte, Disarming Strike and Goading Strike.

As many people have stated above the BM is a battfield controller, allowing them to move enemies to more advantageous posisitons for your party etc as well as the ability of tripping, disarming, parrying and dodging many attacks. Also the nice thing is that your superiorty die which start as d8's scale as you level and most of the maneuvers call for you to either include the d8 into your attack roll or damage so with the Battle Master, many potential misses can become hits with ease and many light grazes can be really damaging hits for your enemies.

Also you gain the ability to gauge your enemies abilities also. Handy during a BBEG kinda battle.

[Specter]

I've yet to hear an account where the adventuring day is so long repeatedly that the champion thrives.

That's not the only way this happens.

A 5th-level druid has 4 lvl1 slots, 3 lvl2 and 2 lvl3, for a total of 9 slots before a rest. A BM has 4 dice to use. So if you assume 4 rounds where he spends one dice, that's one fight and all his dice are gone. If you factor reactions like Riposte, they drain much faster. Champion's improved crits will apply to every attack he makes (in this case, 8 and beyond).

If there is a second fight before a rest, the BM will be just an average fighter; all his subclass features rely on his dice. Both the caster and the champion will still have more to keep going optimally.

Not that BM is a bad subclass, far from it. But you never know when a rest will be available, so you'll have to ration your dice neurotically in a dungeon. Champion has no worries.

[Crgaston]

Champions are only boring if YOU'RE boring. True, mechanically they are somewhat flat, and (un)Remarkable Athlete blows as a L7 ability, especially as a Dex based fighter, since you are probably already proficient in the skills you might otherwise gain. (Half proficiency in ALL physical checks including the ones you're already proficient in wouldn't be OP at all. Ask your DM.) A champion is twice (and later, 3X) as likely to crit ALL THE TIME. BM and EK are cool, too. Just depends on your play style.

What Fighting Style did you pick?

[Grod_The_Giant]

IMO the champion is only boring if you and your DM make it that way...You just gotta use your imagination and your skills.

Champions are only boring if YOU'RE boring.
I have never and will never understand this argument. The Champion adds basically nothing in that regard. (And 5e crits are pathetic enough that I can't get excited about Improved Critical, but that's just me). You're maybe 10% better at random DM-fiat stunts than a normal Fighter, assuming you don't wind up defaulting to Athletics like pretty much all the examples; that's not really a good enough bonus to be worth giving up maneuvers (which if they don't really scale, at least remain useful up until 20th) or spells.

[Specter]

I have never and will never understand this argument. The Champion adds basically nothing in that regard. (And 5e crits are pathetic enough that I can't get excited about Improved Critical, but that's just me). You're maybe 10% better at random DM-fiat stunts than a normal Fighter, assuming you don't wind up defaulting to Athletics like pretty much all the examples; that's not really a good enough bonus to be worth giving up maneuvers (which if they don't really scale, at least remain useful up until 20th) or spells.

True. But all 7th-level features are mild, expect for EK.

[Deleted]

Champions are only boring if YOU'RE boring. True, mechanically they are somewhat flat, and (un)Remarkable Athlete blows as a L7 ability, especially as a Dex based fighter, since you are probably already proficient in the skills you might otherwise gain. (Half proficiency in ALL physical checks including the ones you're already proficient in wouldn't be OP at all. Ask your DM.) A champion is twice (and later, 3X) as likely to crit ALL THE TIME. BM and EK are cool, too. Just depends on your play style.

What Fighting Style did you pick?


The issue here is that anything a champion does, someone else can also do.

Any skills you use, weapons, or whatever can be done by any other class.

So saying this isn't exactly true. It isn't about what you can do with the character, but what the subclass brings to the table.

Which is nothing, except at level 18, which a huge majority of the gakes are over waaaay before then.

Want to do weapon damage? Barbarian, Paladin, Rogue, and Cleric can do that.

Want to do skills? A champions athletics check is worse than a Barbarians, Rogues, or Bards. It would be the same as a clerics.

Want to make up a weird plan that would never work unless you roll a 20? Anyone can do that.

The champion brings nothing to the table that anyone else can't before their subclass is even considered.

Hell, a Fighter without a subclass is barely any different from a fighter with champion.

Increase Crit? People are already rollikg that d20.

Remarkable Athlete? Only works on non-proficient checks. People are already rolling skill checks.

Extra fightings style? Why is a level 1 feature being given to you at level 10???

Sorry but the champion is mathematically boring, and here ill prove it.

Something anyone can do + stuff I was already doing X not wanting to suck (by doing non-proficient/area of expertise things) = boring.



I've stopped caring, though I may never have in the first place.

https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTCyZ-IGqfWeGThK7zLVM2WTCdUDSb8ZAGxiHkaEG2MxC25nB4G

[Crgaston]

The issue here is that anything a champion does, someone else can also do.

Any skills you use, weapons, or whatever can be done by any other class.

So saying this isn't exactly true. It isn't about what you can do with the character, but what the subclass brings to the table.

Which is nothing, except at level 18, which a huge majority of the gakes are over waaaay before then.

Want to do weapon damage? Barbarian, Paladin, Rogue, and Cleric can do that.

Want to do skills? A champions athletics check is worse than a Barbarians, Rogues, or Bards. It would be the same as a clerics.

Want to make up a weird plan that would never work unless you roll a 20? Anyone can do that.

The champion brings nothing to the table that anyone else can't before their subclass is even considered.

Hell, a Fighter without a subclass is barely any different from a fighter with champion.

Increase Crit? People are already rollikg that d20.

Remarkable Athlete? Only works on non-proficient checks. People are already rolling skill checks.

Extra fightings style? Why is a level 1 feature being given to you at level 10???

Sorry but the champion is mathematically boring, and here ill prove it.

Something anyone can do + stuff I was already doing X not wanting to suck (by doing non-proficient/area of expertise things) = boring.



I've stopped caring, though I may never have in the first place.

https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTCyZ-IGqfWeGThK7zLVM2WTCdUDSb8ZAGxiHkaEG2MxC25nB4G


You do make a compelling argument. A Champion with two levels of Rogue is pretty much what a Champion should be. But without the feat cost and minus the Sneak Attack.

But you are selling short the Improved Critical. Twice (or 3x) as often as ANY other class.

[Deleted]

You do make a compelling argument. A Champion with two levels of Rogue is pretty much what a Champion should be. But without the feat cost and minus the Sneak Attack.

But you are selling short the Improved Critical. Twice (or 3x) as often as ANY other class.

Criticals don't matter as that is just how they try and keep up with damage. Others keep up with damage in different ways. Barbarians get critical hit bonuses and can keep up with damage in other ways... Hell, reckless attack gives two chances to crit on each attack.

Besides, extra critical is a passive feature, it isn't something you actually DO. It is just something that happens to you, no different than when the DM gives you a hand out inspiration or advantage for doing something cool. It wasn't you who did the thing, you are just along for the ride.

That's boring. Letting something else always dictate when you get to use your feature is just plain boring.

I'm not saying you can't have fun with a Fighter (Champion) character, but the subclass isn't really adding anything to the mix you know. You could have fun with a commoner or a goblin (see 3.5 guide about playing a commoner who has two pet T-Rexs at the start of the game).

[Grod_The_Giant]

To be fair, most Fighter subclasses are kind of subpar, with the notable exception of Eldrich Knight (because Spells; it's also borderline OP by 5e standards). The problem is that there's so much power packed into the base class, with its four attacks and Action Surge, that it's hard to fit much interesting stuff into the subclasses.

[Deleted]

To be fair, most Fighter subclasses are kind of subpar, with the notable exception of Eldrich Knight (because Spells; it's also borderline OP by 5e standards). The problem is that there's so much power packed into the base class, with its four attacks and Action Surge, that it's hard to fit much interesting stuff into the subclasses.

Yup, I always figured if the base Fighter followed the rules that every other class does, we would have gotten better subclasses and all around better fighter.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Yup, I always figured if the base Fighter followed the rules that every other class does, we would have gotten better subclasses and all around better fighter.
Ziegander was doing some neat stuff on the Homebrew forum not that long ago with the Fighter. He made the Extra Attack upgrades a part of the Champion subclass, simultaneously giving it a stronger identity and opening up space for the other subclasses to be more interesting.

[bid]

A BM has 4 dice to use. So if you assume 4 rounds where he spends one dice, that's one fight and all his dice are gone. If you factor reactions like Riposte, they drain much faster. Champion's improved crits will apply to every attack he makes (in this case, 8 and beyond).
As I've shown over and over...

Riposte does 2d6+4+1d8 * .65 = 10 damage per SD, 40.3 damage per short rest.
Improved critical adds 2d6 = 7 through the extra crit. Every 20 attack rolls or so, you'll get a 19. After 115 attack rolls, you'll add close to 40 damage overall.

Now, DMG expects a full day should have 6-8 encounters and 2 short rests. 8 encounters of 5 rounds is 40 attack rolls, 80 if you have extra attack. So, the BM needs to skip 3 short rests and 1 long rest to do as badly as the champion.

Or seen another way, BM can use a single SD per short rest (every 3rd encounter) and still do more damage than the champion.


tl;dr BM does more damage, even after a full day without any short rest.

[Deleted]

Ziegander was doing some neat stuff on the Homebrew forum not that long ago with the Fighter. He made the Extra Attack upgrades a part of the Champion subclass, simultaneously giving it a stronger identity and opening up space for the other subclasses to be more interesting.

That actually sounds like a good idea for the Champion.

A lot of the base fighter could probably be ported over as a Champion subclass...

[Haydensan]

Is UA allowed? Because some of those are quite interesting, though some may need minor balance tweaks.

I'm in a similar situation in a campaign I'm playing. We have three party members, an archer ranger, a blasting sorcerer and myself a S&B fighter. The ranger is revised and going beast conclave and the sorcerer is really not optimised and new to the system and the DMs encounters are kinda pushing us a bit.

See it all depends on what you want to do in your group. Like in my group if it's allowed I'm considering the monster hunter archetype, if not I'll jump on board with EK even though I dumped int, I'd only look at taking spells that don't rely on it anyway.

If you like the idea of being this almost untouchable tank in a fight (like me), EK is nice.

[djreynolds]

So my fighter will be reaching level 3 soon so I've been thinking about which subclass I'd like to pick up. Our party is pretty well rounded with a rouge, archery based fighter, cleric, wizard, barbarian, and me. I think eldritch knight is out because my int score is pretty average, unless I'm missing something here and don't need a fantastic int score. Any thoughts on favorite fighter subclass?

Well lets look

Barbarian-- some meat up front, strong killing type
Rogue--- picking targets, maybe stealth
archer-- machine gun/sniper
cleric-- the party's glue
wizard--- has a spell for everything

Now I'm assuming a strength based fighter... but how do you kill in combat?

Do you want to be tied to particular weapon or style? Its okay or be more flexible

Its big party for starters, but no particular face. Okay that's something to think about and you have plenty of potential damage out

I say for this group, they all have their niche, you need to be able to augment them, enable them.

Battle master has the maneuvers to really open it up in combat.

So in party this big, I think it is best to specialize.

I would grab sentinel and PAM... sorry but with a barbarian, cleric and rogue possibly all in melee... you need to focus that damage and destruction. When the rogue and barbarian come next to you have to be able to capitalize on that chaos, sentinel will allow for some great AoO and so will PAM.

Maneuvers like menacing and disarm will help out disabling foes. Trip will increase the damage output for those next to you in melee.