Flashy bard concept, need rules interpretation

[Kirkdent]

I've got a concept for a bard in mind, and would like some input on some of the ideas. I'm not looking for an OPTIMIZED character, but want to know if these ideas would be allowed in your game. They're almost more fluff concerns than crunch, as they wouldn't generally affect combat situations, but they could still come up in social situations, so I'd like some rules rulings.

Instead of your usual singing and dancing bard, I want a storyteller-type who uses displays of magic to make a flashy show, with a tambourine instead of a lute or such. This would include frequent uses of prestidigitation, dancing lights, and such (including the occasional fire bolt, though now he only does that outside, and he feels really bad about that tavern he burned down). I've got the Magic Initiate feat in mind for this variant human, so he has access to extra cantrips and the Find Familiar spell.

Sticky point #1: I'd like to use minor illusion and silent image as ways to convey imagery to the crowd, sort of like slipping in pictures of a castle, or a hero of yore as almost TV like pictures (even if they're not moving). Would your group allow audience members to voluntarily fail their saves in order to see these illusion?

Sticky point #2: I'd like to have a rat familiar as an assistant in these shows, and I want him to wear a matching outfit to mine. Typically familiars can vanish and reappear essentially at-will. Would you allow him to keep the outfit as he disappears and reappears? How well could a familiar help as an assistant anyway?

Sticky Point #3: I know the rules for the Magic Initiate feat require you to use the stats from the spell list used, but would your DM allow you to have the wizard's Fire Bolt cantrip and use Charisma instead of Intelligence for a bard? I've forgone the Vicious Mockery cantrip for the Fire Bolt, which seems like a sub-optimal move, but the flashy fire fits the character concept better than the nasty insults.

Thanks!

[Connington]

Sticky point #1: I'd like to use minor illusion and silent image as ways to convey imagery to the crowd, sort of like slipping in pictures of a castle, or a hero of yore as almost TV like pictures (even if they're not moving). Would your group allow audience members to voluntarily fail their saves in order to see these illusion?

Without question. You don't have to fail a save to see an illusion, you have to fail a save to be fooled or impeded by an illusion. And since you're using this out of combat and obviously using illusion magic for entertainment purposes, the save at most represents how convincing an audience member finds the illusion.


Sticky point #2: I'd like to have a rat familiar as an assistant in these shows, and I want him to wear a matching outfit to mine. Typically familiars can vanish and reappear essentially at-will. Would you allow him to keep the outfit as he disappears and reappears? How well could a familiar help as an assistant anyway?

Outfit? Sure. I personally wouldn't allow the familiar to hold onto anything else while in a pocket dimension (at risk of turning a first level ritual into a small bag of holding) but a costume won't break anything.


Sticky Point #3: I know the rules for the Magic Initiate feat require you to use the stats from the spell list used, but would your DM allow you to have the wizard's Fire Bolt cantrip and use Charisma instead of Intelligence for a bard? I've forgone the Vicious Mockery cantrip for the Fire Bolt, which seems like a sub-optimal move, but the flashy fire fits the character concept better than the nasty insults.

Nope, it's part of what keeps things like Eldritch Blast and Greenflame Blade from being stolen willy-nilly. Besides, Vicious Mockery is a great cantrip.

[baticeer]

If you mostly want the "manipulating flashy fire effects" flavor, maybe you could pick Control Flames as your wizard cantrip? It's not an attack but it lets you make shapes appear in fire and other things that seem like they would really fit your bard's magic act.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Sticky point #1: I'd like to use minor illusion and silent image as ways to convey imagery to the crowd, sort of like slipping in pictures of a castle, or a hero of yore as almost TV like pictures (even if they're not moving). Would your group allow audience members to voluntarily fail their saves in order to see these illusion?
Absolutely; as Connington said, a save would only let them recognize it as an illusion, and I probably wouldn't even bother with that on the "only roll if something interesting might happen" principle.


Sticky point #2: I'd like to have a rat familiar as an assistant in these shows, and I want him to wear a matching outfit to mine. Typically familiars can vanish and reappear essentially at-will. Would you allow him to keep the outfit as he disappears and reappears? How well could a familiar help as an assistant anyway?
Only if said outfit includes a funny hat. :smalltongue: But provided you don't try to abuse it, no harm done. On a purely mechanical level, they can take the Help action to boost your Perform check; on a descriptive level, anything you can think of.


Sticky Point #3: I know the rules for the Magic Initiate feat require you to use the stats from the spell list used, but would your DM allow you to have the wizard's Fire Bolt cantrip and use Charisma instead of Intelligence for a bard? I've forgone the Vicious Mockery cantrip for the Fire Bolt, which seems like a sub-optimal move, but the flashy fire fits the character concept better than the nasty insults.
I probably would because, with rare exception, damage-dealing cantrips are terrible and you'd almost certainly be better off shooting a bow, but that's being very permissive.

[Tanarii]

Sticky point #1: I'd like to use minor illusion and silent image as ways to convey imagery to the crowd, sort of like slipping in pictures of a castle, or a hero of yore as almost TV like pictures (even if they're not moving). Would your group allow audience members to voluntarily fail their saves in order to see these illusion?Those illusions don't involve saves. The audience would have to voluntarily spend an action to attempt to discern it as an illusion by making an Intelligence (Investigation) check. Or physically interact with the illusion.

Note that you may not be able to use Minor Illusion as you're currently envisioning. It only allows illusions of objects. (Although nothing says you can't make an illusion of a painting or model of something.)

[MarkVIIIMarc]

Sounds awsome.

Would the Lore College level 6 pick of any two spells from other disciplines helps you?

[Kirkdent]

If you mostly want the "manipulating flashy fire effects" flavor, maybe you could pick Control Flames as your wizard cantrip? It's not an attack but it lets you make shapes appear in fire and other things that seem like they would really fit your bard's magic act.

Oh yeah, RIGHT! Control Flames would definitely fit the concept of the character better than Fire Bolt. I've been sticking with the PHB spells because I just never remember the newer ones. He seems like the kind of guy who would use a crossbow for ranged combat anyway, and may pick up an offensive cantrip when he levels up to... whatever level it is that he gets another (4th? 5th?).

He still feels badly about burning down that tavern... :smallfrown:

[Kirkdent]

Only if said outfit includes a funny hat. :smalltongue: But provided you don't try to abuse it, no harm done. On a purely mechanical level, they can take the Help action to boost your Perform check; on a descriptive level, anything you can think of.


OF COURSE he would have a funny hat, to match mine! :smalltongue:

Also, the idea behind the performances is not to try to abuse mechanics, but more to make the game fun/funny for everyone around the table. I prefer to optimize my characters towards personality concepts, not to game mechanics. If I die horribly because I chose the wrong cantrip, so be it, as long as it's memorable and entertaining.

[Kirkdent]

Sounds awsome.

Would the Lore College level 6 pick of any two spells from other disciplines helps you?

He's absolutely a Lore College bard, and would probably borrow wizard spells that support this concept at 6th level, though I haven't thought about anything past 3rd level at this point. Also, at the moment I'm designing him in a vacuum, and the realities of adventuring might force him to take more... "practical" spells in the future. As it is, the character is really not optimized for combat, and he might need to beef up his offensive threat as he levels up; it all depends on the makeup of the party when we get there.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Oh yeah, RIGHT! Control Flames would definitely fit the concept of the character better than Fire Bolt. I've been sticking with the PHB spells because I just never remember the newer ones. He seems like the kind of guy who would use a crossbow for ranged combat anyway, and may pick up an offensive cantrip when he levels up to... whatever level it is that he gets another (4th? 5th?).

He still feels badly about burning down that tavern... :smallfrown:
That's not a bad one. Good Wizard cantrips to pick up include

Booming Blade: Solid melee performance, no Int score required
Control Flames: Generally neat
Friends
Mage Hand
Minor Illusion
Mold Earth: Probably the most useful of the elemental cantrips, thanks to the digging ability.
Prestidigitation

[GorogIrongut]

He's absolutely a Lore College bard, and would probably borrow wizard spells that support this concept at 6th level, though I haven't thought about anything past 3rd level at this point. Also, at the moment I'm designing him in a vacuum, and the realities of adventuring might force him to take more... "practical" spells in the future. As it is, the character is really not optimized for combat, and he might need to beef up his offensive threat as he levels up; it all depends on the makeup of the party when we get there.


I think you're missing something pretty obvious. In a recent UA, they released the rules for a Bard of Glamour. The rules are both effective while simultaneously being right up your street for the description of this character.

College of Glamour
The College of Glamour is open to those bards
who mastered their craft in the vibrant, deadly
realm of the Feywild. Tutored by satyrs, eladrin,
and other fey, these bards learn to use their
magic to delight and captivate others.
The bards of this college are regarded with a
mixture of awe and fear. Their performances are
the stuff of legend. The bards of this college are
so eloquent that a speech or song that one of
them performs can cause captors to release the
bard unharmed and can lull a furious dragon
into complacency. The same magic that allows
them to quell beasts can also bend minds.


This is the ultimate 'flashy' bard.

-Illusions are a little more fiddly. If you just wanted to make a momentary, evocative image, then yes you could use those spells. If you wanted to make a full blu ray production of Clash of the Titans, then the answer is obviously no.
-As for your other questions, of course your rat could have clothes that come and go with him.
-I think you've already found Produce Flame. This solves your problem.

[Kirkdent]

I think you're missing something pretty obvious. In a recent UA, they released the rules for a Bard of Glamour. The rules are both effective while simultaneously being right up your street for the description of this character.

College of Glamour
The College of Glamour is open to those bards
who mastered their craft in the vibrant, deadly
realm of the Feywild. Tutored by satyrs, eladrin,
and other fey, these bards learn to use their
magic to delight and captivate others.
The bards of this college are regarded with a
mixture of awe and fear. Their performances are
the stuff of legend. The bards of this college are
so eloquent that a speech or song that one of
them performs can cause captors to release the
bard unharmed and can lull a furious dragon
into complacency. The same magic that allows
them to quell beasts can also bend minds.


This is the ultimate 'flashy' bard.

-Illusions are a little more fiddly. If you just wanted to make a momentary, evocative image, then yes you could use those spells. If you wanted to make a full blu ray production of Clash of the Titans, then the answer is obviously no.
-As for your other questions, of course your rat could have clothes that come and go with him.
-I think you've already found Produce Flame. This solves your problem.

I agree that you've given me a great approach to the "flashy" bard, and I appreciate the additional reference to rules outside the PHB. In this PARTICULAR case, I don't think the College of Glamour fits the character. He's kind of a wannabe wizard, so the College of Lore strikes me as being appropriate; the Glamour charm- and dominate-type powers don't quite fit how I'd use him.

[wilhelmdubdub]

Animate objects!