Naval combat rules?

[Avianmosquito]

Are their any D&D supplements that have rules for naval combat? I've got a campaign setting where naval combat occurs on the regular, and I want to know how to handle it when dwarven privateers sail out in front of an elven merchant vessel and fire thirty guns into their bow.

[Troacctid]

Yes, Stormwrack.

The system's not really built for that sort of combat though, so it's a little kludgy.

[Avianmosquito]

Yes, Stormwrack.

The system's not really built for that sort of combat though, so it's a little kludgy.

Well, it's got to be better than nothing, right? I can make adjustments if I feel it doesn't appropriately handle a broadside, I just need something to work off of.

[legomaster00156]

Pathfinder also has naval combat rules (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/other-rules/ship-combat).

[Avianmosquito]

Pathfinder also has naval combat rules (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/other-rules/ship-combat).

That'll work better, though I see the health and damage values are way too low for consistency and I'm going to need to change that. My cannons deal 20d6, and it doesn't seem that anything in this system is going to hold up to more than a couple of those.

[Kelb_Panthera]

That'll work better, though I see the health and damage values are way too low for consistency and I'm going to need to change that. My cannons deal 20d6, and it doesn't seem that anything in this system is going to hold up to more than a couple of those.

Well, yeah. 20d6 is a -lot- of damage. Being struck by lightning or set on fire is less damaging. The only things that do that kind of damage are falling from over 200ft, being completely submerged in lava or acid, flying through an arora, and a ticked off evoker in the mid-teen levels.

[Avianmosquito]

Well, yeah. 20d6 is a -lot- of damage. Being struck by lightning or set on fire is less damaging. The only things that do that kind of damage are falling from over 200ft, being completely submerged in lava or acid, flying through an arora, and a ticked off evoker in the mid-teen levels.

Well, it IS a cannon.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Well, it IS a cannon.

For comparison's sake, the classic renaissance cannon described in the stormwrack is listed at 6d10, average 33 (heavy bombard) and even d20 modern's M1A2 Abrahm's Tank cannon is listed at 10d12, average 65.

This; compared to your cannon's 20d6, average 70; makes it seem as though you may have overshot (ha!) the mark.

It's your homebrew but it may be easier to tone down your cannon than to beef up everything at which it might be fired. Just a thought.

[Avianmosquito]

For comparison's sake, the classic renaissance cannon described in the stormwrack is listed at 6d10, average 33 (heavy bombard) and even d20 modern's M1A2 Abrahm's Tank cannon is listed at 10d12, average 65.

This; compared to your cannon's 20d6, average 70; makes it seem as though you may have overshot (ha!) the mark.

It's your homebrew but it may be easier to tone down your cannon than to beef up everything at which it might be fired. Just a thought.

My concern is what happens when a character gets hit by a cannon. If successfully hitting a 10th-level fighter with a cannon (which is not easy to do) is a slap on the wrist, there's a problem. With 20d6 it's strong enough to (usually) be over the massive damage threshold, so any hit with a cannon could kill a character. There's also the fact that the cannon is not an area of effect attack, which I think some of those listed might be, so it has to do more damage to compensate for that issue.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Neither is described as being an AoE attack.

As for a 10th level fighter, pfft. There are -real- people that can tank a cannon ball. Check it out. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LBPeKADIrIc)

An armored D&D world warrior -should- be able to deal with a couple such impacts, especially with typical magical boosting.

[Avianmosquito]

Neither is described as being an AoE attack.

As for a 10th level fighter, pfft. There are -real- people that can tank a cannon ball. Check it out. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LBPeKADIrIc)

An armored D&D world warrior -should- be able to deal with a couple such impacts, especially with typical magical boosting.

You do realize that is a stage trick and not comparable to an actual battlefield cannon, right?

[Kelb_Panthera]

You do realize that is a stage trick and not comparable to an actual battlefield cannon, right?

Obviously. I think it's something like a 1/4 or an 1/8 of the normal powder charge. The point remains that it's a -very- substantial impact and D&D warrior characters are -worlds- tougher than any human that ever lived by mid-level, even without their gear.

[Avianmosquito]

Obviously. I think it's something like a 1/4 or an 1/8 of the normal powder charge. The point remains that it's a -very- substantial impact and D&D warrior characters are -worlds- tougher than any human that ever lived by mid-level, even without their gear.

Real cannonballs fly as fast or faster than musket balls and easily rip through foot-thick wooden hulls at ranges of several hundred feet. They would put a hole in you as big as they are, if not larger, and some cannons may well rip you in half. They are known to maim and kill lines of soldiers in formation, perforating or dismembering people even after hitting the ground.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Real cannonballs fly as fast or faster than musket balls and easily rip through foot-thick wooden hulls at ranges of several hundred feet. They would tear you in half.

A quick, well placed stroke of a well honed sword could cleave me in half too. Doesn't stop the fighter from tanking a dozen hits from the same blade. Gritty realism and mid-level D&D don't mix very well.

[Avianmosquito]

A quick, well placed stroke of a well honed sword could cleave me in half too. Doesn't stop the fighter from tanking a dozen hits from the same blade. Gritty realism and mid-level D&D don't mix very well.

Cutting somebody in half with a sword is next to impossible. Even decapitation is so difficult it is routinely botched by professional executioners in relatively controlled circumstances with dedicated weapons.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Cutting somebody in half with a sword is next to impossible. Even decapitation is so difficult it is routinely botched by professional executioners in relatively controlled circumstances with dedicated weapons.

That does not line up with my knowledge on the matter at all. Cleaving an unarmored man in half is moderately difficult at most and decapitating a man is trivial.

Executioners axes were rarely properly sharpened and "botching" the job makes for better public spectacle while the internet is -rife- with replica sword manufacturers selling their wares with demonstrations that involve cutting large sections of pork or beef in half, albeit rarely with less than two strokes from a wholly untrained man.

[Avianmosquito]

That does not line up with my knowledge on the matter at all. Cleaving an unarmored man in half is moderately difficult at most and decapitating a man is trivial.

Executioners axes were rarely properly sharpened and "botching" the job makes for better public spectacle while the internet is -rife- with replica sword manufacturers selling their wares with demonstrations that involve cutting large sections of pork or beef in half, albeit rarely with less than two strokes from a wholly untrained man.

1. Saudi Arabia still performs execution by beheading and it is routinely botched by professional executioners with swords designed specifically for beheading. These swords have long handles and very heavy, broad, curved blades that are weighted towards the tip as to maximise the force of the swing. They would be too slow and clumsy to use in a fight, but against a target on a chopping block (which also makes the job easier), they deliver a much stronger chop. The executioner also delivers the cut very deliberately with a great deal of force.

2. Dead meat held securely in place and living meat able to move away from you are dramatically different targets. Not least because it makes good edge alignment difficult, if you know what edge alignment is, and much of the impact is mitigated by the target moving. A sword will always cut a target better than a person.

3. Even the infamous two-body standard for japanese blades was done on subdued prisoners on the ground, with a three foot handle attached to the blade to generate more force. Two bodies was also the highest standard for nodachi, not katanas.

4. Tales of battle are often heavily embellished. Decapitation was a common embellishment because it was so impressive. In battle it was more common for somebody to continue fighting with dozens of injuries than be taken out of battle in a single hit. Case in point, Blackbeard was shot five times and then proceeded to have a sword fight with multiple assailants who cut and stabbed him twenty more times before he went down, and he was very definitely not wearing any armour, just a thick coat. So, if you want to sound impressive, an impressive lie is to say you killed a man in a way that unambiguously ends the fight in a single hit without being physically impossible to perform. Decapitation, while extremely difficult, fills this purpose.

[Big Fau]

My concern is what happens when a character gets hit by a cannon. If successfully hitting a 10th-level fighter with a cannon (which is not easy to do) is a slap on the wrist, there's a problem. With 20d6 it's strong enough to (usually) be over the massive damage threshold, so any hit with a cannon could kill a character. There's also the fact that the cannon is not an area of effect attack, which I think some of those listed might be, so it has to do more damage to compensate for that issue.

Just pointing this out: A typical 10th level Fighter (+6 Fort, +3 Con, +3 Resist from item) passes the Massive Damage save on a 3. Any minor optimization can bump that up to a +15 Fort modifier effortlessly, and there's even a feat that makes it so you can't fail a Fort save if you roll a 1. A mundane cannon is only intended to be a threat to low-level characters. Once you get past level 8 your AC alone should be well out of non-crit range for your typical cannon crew.

D&D isn't supposed to be 100% realistic, and HP is one of those things.

[Telok]

For comparison's sake, the classic renaissance cannon described in the stormwrack is listed at 6d10, average 33 (heavy bombard) and even d20 modern's M1A2 Abrahm's Tank cannon is listed at 10d12, average 65.

This; compared to your cannon's 20d6, average 70; makes it seem as though you may have overshot (ha!) the mark.

It's your homebrew but it may be easier to tone down your cannon than to beef up everything at which it might be fired. Just a thought.

I think that it depends on the scale that you're using. If you're using 1HD humanoids as a measure of a healthy, fit, trained, warriors then a "cannon" that can barely penetrate a tower shield (on average) could good enough.

If your scale is that 1HD humanoids are still developing juveniles with only a bare minimum of training and "trained adult" is in the 4 to 6 HD range then a 6d10 cannon is a light weapon used to harass people.

[Zombimode]

My concern is what happens when a character gets hit by a cannon. If successfully hitting a 10th-level fighter with a cannon (which is not easy to do) is a slap on the wrist, there's a problem. With 20d6 it's strong enough to (usually) be over the massive damage threshold, so any hit with a cannon could kill a character. There's also the fact that the cannon is not an area of effect attack, which I think some of those listed might be, so it has to do more damage to compensate for that issue.

Do you have the same concerns about being hit by a Storm Giant's (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MM35_gallery/MM35_PG121.jpg) greatsword (that the guy in the middle)? 4d6+21 are 35 on average.

I think you have to calibrate your expectations here.

[Yukitsu]

For comparison's sake, the classic renaissance cannon described in the stormwrack is listed at 6d10, average 33 (heavy bombard) and even d20 modern's M1A2 Abrahm's Tank cannon is listed at 10d12, average 65.

This; compared to your cannon's 20d6, average 70; makes it seem as though you may have overshot (ha!) the mark.

It's your homebrew but it may be easier to tone down your cannon than to beef up everything at which it might be fired. Just a thought.

To be fair though, a lot of those weapons are really rather sub standard compared to what they should be. Like, I think the M1A2 only really has the ability to punch through a thin brick wall which in real life a shoddy assault rifle can punch through. 65 HP is about 4 inches of stone. In real life, a 120 Rheinmetall should be able to punch through about 660 HP fairly regularly.

One thing you may want to do is add object multiplication to damage for things like cannons and other ordinance to both encourage their use as ship to ship weapons rather than anti-personelle weapons and so that vehicles can be tough enough that your average dude can't axe one apart in 10 minutes. The other thing of course is to give them absolutely terrible accuracy against anything not ship sized. So they could do something like, 10d6 generally but 10d6X3 or something against objects. 10d6 is enough to splatter any normal mortal human being sans really strange rolls, but if you're talking a hero or dragon which probably should be able to take several before they go down, it's a lot but not super unfair.

[Ashtagon]

I think it quite reasonable in a setting where swords deal 7 damage and a 10th level fighter can expect to have 80 hit points that he should be able to survive a 'direct hit' by a cannon.

Why?

Because hit points at that point have long since ceased to be a measure of how many axes you can carry in your face. Instead they represent a measure of stamina luck near misses and hero shield.

[Avianmosquito]

Look, my cannons are presently set up to perform realistically ENOUGH to function as weapons and still be balanced in the game. 20d6 is for a medium cannon, there's cannon variants all the way down at 1d6 and all the way up to 80d6, I just picked a very typical example. (How often do you see a fine-sized deck gun or a colossal bombard, anyway?) It deals an average 70 damage and has a 20 x3 critical, but it has a hard time hitting anything smaller than a ship or an infantry formation and takes two people three rounds to reload. So it is massively powerful because it's a cannon, but not so massively powerful that it instantly kills a high-level player on every shot. It works with the way the rest of the system works, and it doesn't need to change. It is also balanced with the other heavy weapons, such as the mortar and the gatling gun, which would be impossible if it dealt a pithy 6d10.

Can this digression be over now?

[Ualaa]

Based on Endzeitgeist's reviews, 'Fire as She Bears' (Frog God Games) is likely the top naval rules for Pathfinder. In his review on the Zeitgeist adventure path/campaign (by EN Publishing), he recommends 'Fire as She Bears' over their recommended naval combat rules.

[EisenKreutzer]

Are their any D&D supplements that have rules for naval combat? I've got a campaign setting where naval combat occurs on the regular, and I want to know how to handle it when dwarven privateers sail out in front of an elven merchant vessel and fire thirty guns into their bow.

The merchant ship sinks, and the dwarven privateers lose all their loot is what happens.

[Avianmosquito]

The merchant ship sinks, and the dwarven privateers lose all their loot is what happens.

Firstly, it will take a while for the ship to sink. Ships can take thirty cannons better than you'd think.

Secondly, even when it does the privateers may well be in shallow enough waters (as ships often pass between islands in this setting, to avoid going extra thousands of miles) to recover the loot.

Third, privateers are not pirates. They're under contract to wage naval warfare as a private contractor, basically they're mercenaries acting on behalf of the dwarven navy. Sure, they'd LIKE to loot the ship, keep the coin and liquor (most elven trade is in liquor, as there are no distilleries in Sohei) and sell the rest, but it isn't required as part of their job. And if the ship is on its way back, how much do you think dwarves are going to care about exotic clothing, foreign delicacies, wine, swords or opium? ...Actually, nevermind, those last three are still pretty good loot.

The point is that the ship will take time to sink, the stuff the dwarves want most may be retrieved anyway and they don't really need it to do their jobs.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Ualaa
Based on Endzeitgeist's reviews, 'Fire as She Bears' (Frog God Games) is likely the top naval rules for Pathfinder. In his review on the Zeitgeist adventure path/campaign (by EN Publishing), he recommends 'Fire as She Bears' over their recommended naval combat rules.

Those are some of the best reviews I've ever seen for a Pathfinder product, especially given its focus and the long history of previous attempts.

Impressive indeed. If I were the OP, I'd snag this in a heartbeat.

[Avianmosquito]

Those are some of the best reviews I've ever seen for a Pathfinder product, especially given its focus and the long history of previous attempts.

Impressive indeed. If I were the OP, I'd snag this in a heartbeat.

Way ahead of you.