How to force a soul from a kill to go to a different plane than their alignment?

[daremetoidareyo]

Is there a way to force a soul to go to a different plane than their alignment? If I kill a LG paladin on a prime material plane, is there any way to shunt his soul to limbo instead of mt. celestia or whatever the lawful good plane was.

[Malimar]

Kill them with a Thinaun weapon, plane shift to Limbo, hand off the weapon to a friendly slaad for safekeeping?

...I mean, this technically fulfills the request (without actually being very helpful)

[Kelb_Panthera]

There -might- be something in BoVD or one of the fiendish codices but I feel compelled to ask why? Trapping the soul is so very much easier; a simple thinaun weapon gets the job done.

[daremetoidareyo]

Kill them with a Thinaun weapon, plane shift to Limbo, hand off the weapon to a friendly slaad for safekeeping?

...I mean, this technically fulfills the request (without actually being very helpful)

I can make this work if I have to.

[Necroticplague]

A Pact Certain, is a one-way ticket to Hell. Unfortunately, this is both hard to exploit (doesn't count if it's under duress or mind control. Say what you will about devils, at least they respect your right to damn yourself of your own accord), and not entirely in keeping with the ask (since it changes your alignment to LE irrevocably).

Slightly more in keeping, but a pain in the keister, is to trap their soul (such as in a thinuam weapon), take them to the plane, then rez them there. Basically, just doing the job manually. But it doesn't make them a Petitioner there. I'm pretty sure the only things with enough might to blatantly defy the Wheel like that would be dieties.

EDIT: dang swordsages.

[daremetoidareyo]

I need a cheaper option than self casting planeshift. How to get a thinuan weapon to a specific outer plane? It needs not to be accompanied.

[Deophaun]

FCII has the bind to hell cleric spell; enchant a weapon and if you kill a person named during the casting with that weapon, his soul gets trapped in the Hall of the Vanquished in Stygia, no save, no SR.

[Crake]

FCII has the bind to hell cleric spell; enchant a weapon and if you kill a person named during the casting with that weapon, his soul gets trapped in the Hall of the Vanquished in Stygia, no save, no SR.

I was gonna suggest this too, though if you specifically wanted them to go to limbo, you could probably research a variant. Only problem with that though, is what's to stop the paladin's god from simply scooping up his property from limbo and moving it to celestia or wherever?

[Coidzor]

Pathfinder offers the much more cost effective Summon Cacodaemon (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/summon-cacodaemon) and Create Soul Gem (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/c/create-soul-gem) alternatives to a Thinuan(thinaun?) weapon, but the underlying mechanic of getting them to the other plane is the same.

If you want to have an item go to a plane, then use it to pay a Called Outsider from Planar Binding, et al. It'll go back with the outsider to that plane. Probably works best when you know the name of a specific outsider to hand things off to or wants to give the item to an outsider that will know the markets for a trapped soul.

[unseenmage]

I need a cheaper option than self casting planeshift. How to get a thinuan weapon to a specific outer plane? It needs not to be accompanied.

Doubt ots useful but as special materials are explicitly not magic items you could Animate Objects a thinuan steel item then Plane Shift the resultant creature.

[Inevitability]

I need a cheaper option than self casting planeshift. How to get a thinuan weapon to a specific outer plane? It needs not to be accompanied.

Make a knowledge check to know if there's any portals to Limbo anywhere on this plane (apply buffs as necessary), then use Create Lantern Archon/Lesser Planar Binding/Lesser Planar Ally to get a lantern archon. Have it teleport-carry the weapon there and drop the item in the portal, done.

This only fails to work if you can't get a high enough knowledge check (somewhat possible) or the material plane lacks any and all portals to limbo that are not within an anti-teleportation or dead magic zone.

[Afgncaap5]

Only problem with that though, is what's to stop the paladin's god from simply scooping up his property from limbo and moving it to celestia or wherever?

Well, I don't know if this counts as "stopping" it, but depending on the deity in question they might say "Hey buddy, the forces of darkness just dropped one of my greatest champions into their turf, so let's have some fun before gettin' you out of there. Let's see if I can scrounge up a replacement for that Holy sword of yours..." That'd at least delay it for a bit.

[Necroticplague]

I need a cheaper option than self casting planeshift. How to get a thinuan weapon to a specific outer plane? It needs not to be accompanied.

You could just look for a portal to the appropriate plane, no need for Planeshift.

[Uncle Pine]

You could also manually override your target's alignment and then kill him. Off the top of my head I can only think of Mind Rape (which is of a higher level than Planeshift), but maybe this will inspire someone else with a better idea.

[5ColouredWalker]

With BoVD there's the Sacrifice rules, which would allow you to send anyone to the Demon/Yougloth/Devil/Evil God of your choice.

[Inevitability]

You could also manually override your target's alignment and then kill him. Off the top of my head I can only think of Mind Rape (which is of a higher level than Planeshift), but maybe this will inspire someone else with a better idea.

Start with a Helm of Opposite Alignment, then use the redemption rules to shift the now-CE guy's alignment to CN?

[Jack_Simth]

You could also manually override your target's alignment and then kill him. Off the top of my head I can only think of Mind Rape (which is of a higher level than Planeshift), but maybe this will inspire someone else with a better idea.
There's also the Morality Undone spell... but it's temporary. Which does raise an interesting question: What happens if a soul in the abyss changes alignment?

[Inevitability]

Just remembered another way: depending on the setting a character's afterlife may depend on their deity rather than their alignment. With a sufficiently high diplomacy check, I suppose convincing someone to worship a deity of Limbo may be possible.

It is not even necessary to worship a morally opposed god. Faerun has the LN Red Knight residing in Limbo, for one.


There's also the Morality Undone spell... but it's temporary. Which does raise an interesting question: What happens if a soul in the abyss changes alignment?

1. Morality Undone would turn a LG person LE, which gets them no closer to CN.
2. The soul in question would probably lose its value as building brick for the abyss, so I think it'd just get torn apart by one of the many good-hating demons.

[unseenmage]

Just remembered another way: depending on the setting a character's afterlife may depend on their deity rather than their alignment. With a sufficiently high diplomacy check, I suppose convincing someone to worship a deity of Limbo may be possible.

It is not even necessary to worship a morally opposed god. Faerun has the LN Red Knight residing in Limbo, for one.



1. Morality Undone would turn a LG person LE, which gets them no closer to CN.
2. The soul in question would probably lose its value as building brick for the abyss, so I think it'd just get torn apart by one of the many good-hating demons.

Power of Faerun does have a Diplomacy check method for converting npcs who attend a religious leader'a sermons. Several Diplomacy checks later and viola, converts galore.

[Âmesang]

This is giving me bad memories about a recent 5th Edition game in which a "lawful neutral" "dwarf" paladin of Moradin was using Religion checks to forcibly translocate the souls of fallen enemies into Dwarvenhome; even kept a running list of the various creatures: humans, orcs, giants, &c.

I'm not a religious fellow (though I'm fascinated by the history), but this just felt so… blasphemous to me. :smallannoyed: I could see Moradin accepting a non-dwarf if said non-dwarf, say one with no friends, no family, excluded from ought else… and died in a selfless sacrifice that aided dwarfkind, like saving a clan from some great threat; an avatar of the Soulforger coming down to accept the person into Dwarvenhome as a reward, taking the one who was turn away by so many to a well deserved rest.

Nope. In this case it was more "wouldn't be funny if the giant ended up in Dwarvenhome? lulz!" The referee allowed it, however… with no consequences at all; after all, it's just a game! :smallfrown: Sigh.

[Uncle Pine]

This is giving me bad memories about a recent 5th Edition game in which a "lawful neutral" "dwarf" paladin of Moradin was using Religion checks to forcibly translocate the souls of fallen enemies into Dwarvenhome; even kept a running list of the various creatures: humans, orcs, giants, &c.

I'm not a religious fellow (though I'm fascinated by the history), but this just felt so… blasphemous to me. :smallannoyed: I could see Moradin accepting a non-dwarf if said non-dwarf, say one with no friends, no family, excluded from ought else… and died in a selfless sacrifice that aided dwarfkind, like saving a clan from some great threat; an avatar of the Soulforger coming down to accept the person into Dwarvenhome as a reward, taking the one who was turn away by so many to a well deserved rest.

Nope. In this case it was more "wouldn't be funny if the giant ended up in Dwarvenhome? lulz!" The referee allowed it, however… with no consequences at all; after all, it's just a game! :smallfrown: Sigh.

Maybe the true purpose was to lock a bunch of enemies of Moradin with hordes of dwarves for all the eternity so that them could be beaten forever?

[Psyren]

The only permanent solution is to convert the soul. Anything else can be reversed, especially if their deity takes notice.

[daremetoidareyo]

The only permanent solution is to convert the soul. Anything else can be reversed, especially if their deity takes notice.

Can you convert a soul to a neutral alignment and towards the chaotic axis? I only know of redemption rules.

[Mr Adventurer]

This is giving me bad memories about a recent 5th Edition game in which a "lawful neutral" "dwarf" paladin of Moradin was using Religion checks to forcibly translocate the souls of fallen enemies into Dwarvenhome; even kept a running list of the various creatures: humans, orcs, giants, &c.

I'm not a religious fellow (though I'm fascinated by the history), but this just felt so… blasphemous to me. :smallannoyed: I could see Moradin accepting a non-dwarf if said non-dwarf, say one with no friends, no family, excluded from ought else… and died in a selfless sacrifice that aided dwarfkind, like saving a clan from some great threat; an avatar of the Soulforger coming down to accept the person into Dwarvenhome as a reward, taking the one who was turn away by so many to a well deserved rest.

Nope. In this case it was more "wouldn't be funny if the giant ended up in Dwarvenhome? lulz!" The referee allowed it, however… with no consequences at all; after all, it's just a game! :smallfrown: Sigh.

In 5e, gods are not exclusively tied to races. Moradin may be the Dwarf god, but that's not all he is. So I don't think your concerns are valid.

[Mr Adventurer]

OT, still not really the metaphysical solution you're looking for, but the Metamorphosis or Minimus Containment versions of the Binding spell let you package someone up for transport.

[Inevitability]

In 5e, gods are not exclusively tied to races. Moradin may be the Dwarf god, but that's not all he is. So I don't think your concerns are valid.

This.

Also, how the hell is the player changing a soul's post-mortem destination with a mere religion check, especially considering said soul is already dead and should already have moved on to its proper afterlife?

[Mr Adventurer]

Oh yeah; I misread and assumed they were performing deathbed conversions.

[Ruethgar]

There is a necromancer variant familiar that lets you bind a handful of souls together in torturous agony and they can stay together even if dismissed. Nothing says you can pick the souls used but if you're looking for thematic and easy agony for a soul it works.

I actually used that for Death in an E6 world, she and her army of undead wizards would bind the souls of that world and then force them into eternal sleep with one guy Lucid Dreaming their heaven/hell into being while Death harvested Abrosia and Liquid Pain.

[Flickerdart]

Can you convert a soul to a neutral alignment and towards the chaotic axis? I only know of redemption rules.

You can cast atonement, which allows a willing creature to adopt the caster's alignment. So a CN cleric casting atonement lets anyone become CN if they want to.

Also I believe receiving embrace the dark chaos is a chaotic act, and casting any [Chaos] spell is also a chaotic act. Cast enough of those (even the humble protection from law) and your alignment will shift towards Chaos.

[daremetoidareyo]

You can cast atonement, which allows a willing creature to adopt the caster's alignment. So a CN cleric casting atonement lets anyone become CN if they want to.

Also I believe receiving embrace the dark chaos is a chaotic act, and casting any [Chaos] spell is also a chaotic act. Cast enough of those (even the humble protection from law) and your alignment will shift towards Chaos.

Firstly, thanks. Atonement is a good one.

Let's talk about "casting" (chaos) spells: do spell trigger items count or spell completion items?

[Flickerdart]

Firstly, thanks. Atonement is a good one.

Let's talk about "casting" (chaos) spells: do spell trigger items count or spell completion items?

That's a good question! Creating such an item is definitely a chaotic act. BoVD p77 gives us "Tapping into evil power is an evil act in and of itself, no matter what the effects or the reason for using the power might be." Using a magic item to cast a chaotic spell is definitely "tapping into" chaotic power, so all things being equal using spell trigger/completion items of chaotic spells should still be considered chaotic acts.

[Coidzor]

What about a harmless spell in a command word item that doesn't break mental control?

Can we dominate someone into repeating the command word of a chaotic spell over and over so they become chaotic and then use a good or evil spell as appropriate until they no longer ping on Detect Good/Evil?

[unseenmage]

Doesn't speaking the verybadwords from the BoVD count as an Eeeevil act?

Couldn't trick someone into catchphrasing one of those words could we?

[Flickerdart]

What about a harmless spell in a command word item that doesn't break mental control?

Can we dominate someone into repeating the command word of a chaotic spell over and over so they become chaotic and then use a good or evil spell as appropriate until they no longer ping on Detect Good/Evil?

If you're being forced to do it, I don't think it counts. After all, you didn't make the choice.


Doesn't speaking the verybadwords from the BoVD count as an Eeeevil act?

Couldn't trick someone into catchphrasing one of those words could we?

Speaking the Dark Speech without the right feat kills you instantly, and its pronunciation is so exact that one cannot be compelled to speak it unintentionally.

[unseenmage]

...

Speaking the Dark Speech without the right feat kills you instantly, and its pronunciation is so exact that one cannot be compelled to speak it unintentionally.
Ah, I had forgotten that tidbit.
One assumes the same is true for the BoED version as well? Could we safely extrapolate other alignment pole versions of such?


I still think this bit from Power of Faerun page 51 might be the best bet,


Players are encouraged to role-play attempts at proselytization.
Alternatively, a mechanical substitute for proselytization is
a Diplomacy check. The DC of the check depends on the NPC’s
attitude toward the faith or the proselytizer, whichever is worse.
Use the Infl uencing NPC Attitudes sidebar on page 72 of the
Player’s Handbook, but add 10 to the DC because religious beliefs
are deeply held. A friendly reaction means that the NPC is willing
to attend a church service, and a subsequent check can be made
after such a service. A helpful reaction means that the NPC is
willing to convert.


For that matter Diplomancy-ing them into repeatedly casting alignment charged spells from magic items should do the trick quite nicely.

[Mr Adventurer]

There is a necromancer variant familiar that lets you bind a handful of souls together in torturous agony and they can stay together even if dismissed. Nothing says you can pick the souls used but if you're looking for thematic and easy agony for a soul it works.

I actually used that for Death in an E6 world, she and her army of undead wizards would bind the souls of that world and then force them into eternal sleep with one guy Lucid Dreaming their heaven/hell into being while Death harvested Abrosia and Liquid Pain.

This sounds interesting, would you expand on it? PM if you like.

[Particle_Man]

Now I wonder if some LE villain might try something like this to cheat fate and go to heaven forever, avoiding the hell they deserve. ;)

[Âmesang]

Also, how the hell is the player changing a soul's post-mortem destination with a mere religion check, especially considering said soul is already dead and should already have moved on to its proper afterlife?
Because the referee let him. :smalltongue:

[Jack_Simth]

Now I wonder if some LE villain might try something like this to cheat fate and go to heaven forever, avoiding the hell they deserve. ;)

I imagine a lot of them would plan to.... and then die unexpectedly. Or worse: Live unexpectedly.