How does Magic Initiate affect each class?

[danpit2991]

so here we go beating the dead horse again i think i have a grasp of this feat but i am confused about several things.

this is what i understand:

1. on non casters it grants a once per long rest 1st level spell and 2 cantrips (pretty self explanatory)

2. if you are a caster it gives does the same as 1. but if you choose your casting class you get to use your regular slots for it as well


the part that is confusing the heck out of me is how it goes with other classes like

Arcane Trickster

Eldritch Knight

and since its casting mechanic is different Warlock

Basically can these classes use their spell slots to cast the first level spell from Magic Initiate in addition to the once a day from the feat?

[danpit2991]

specifically, if as a warlock could i cast magic missile using my pact slots?

[metaridley18]

specifically, if as a warlock could i cast magic missile using my pact slots?

The Sage Advice ruling is that, if the spell you chose is on your casting class spell list, you can use the slots you get from that class to cast the spell, in addition to the once per day. The reasoning behind this is that the "Spellcasting" feature says you can use your slots to cast bard/cleric/druid/sorcerer/warlock/wizard spells you know/have prepared. Magic initiate says that you learn the spell. So if you choose your own class, you know the spell, you have slots for it, you can cast it. With AT/EK, you learn off the Wizard list, so if you choose Magic Initiate-Wizard, you can use your slots to cast the spell. This is true for the warlock as well. You choose a warlock spell, you can cast it with warlock slots. By this ruling, no warlock Magic Missiles for you.

Frankly, I think this ruling makes no sense, and the spellcasting features don't even read the way he says they do. On prepared casters, they don't refer to spell slots and spells known the way they do on spells known casters, the prepared casters spellcasting feature only refers to casting prepared spells. On spells known casters, the spellcasting feature only refers to casting "spells you know", not "bard/sorcerer/warlock spells you know." So by a strict reading of the rules, prepped casters couldn't EVER cast the magic initiate spell using their slots, and spells known casters could cast ANY spell, not just ones from their class.

When I DM, I rule it that you can ALWAYS cast the spell learned from your own spell slots if you have them, in addition to the 1/day. I haven't run into any issues, because nobody has taken Magic Initiate. If you want to be sure, follow the Sage Advice ruling as it's kind of balanced between too permissive and too restrictive. Otherwise, just ask your DM.

[Toadkiller]

Yeah, an extra level one spell known isn't likely to destroy the game. I suspect the interpretation above is the way to go.

I guess I don't get why this is weird feat. Cantrips alone are worth a lot. The first level spell is just a potentially awesome bonus.

[Aaron Underhand]

When I DM, I rule it that you can ALWAYS cast the spell learned from your own spell slots if you have them, in addition to the 1/day. I haven't run into any issues, because nobody has taken Magic Initiate. If you want to be sure, follow the Sage Advice ruling as it's kind of balanced between too permissive and too restrictive. Otherwise, just ask your DM.

I'd be cautious with this. I agree with the 'logic' of the way magic works, but the WotC ruling is based on the logic of game balance.

If a spell is already on your list then game balance has been considered.

If it's not then there could be potentially game breaking (or at least game disrupting) cross class synergies.

Of the top of my head I'm thinking Hex or Armor of Agathys on a AT or EK, and Cure Wounds on a wizard/sorcerer.

[Gignere]

I'd be cautious with this. I agree with the 'logic' of the way magic works, but the WotC ruling is based on the logic of game balance.

If a spell is already on your list then game balance has been considered.

If it's not then there could be potentially game breaking (or at least game disrupting) cross class synergies.

Of the top of my head I'm thinking Hex or Armor of Agathys on a AT or EK, and Cure Wounds on a wizard/sorcerer.

I don't think it really matters for game balance at all. Crawford is just doing a strictest RAW interpretation. Even AoA for EKs and ATs doesn't break game balance. Even cure wounds and healing word on wizard / sorcerer doesn't really do much. You are still restricted by spell slots and action economy.

[metaridley18]

I don't think it really matters for game balance at all. Crawford is just doing a strictest RAW interpretation. Even AoA for EKs and ATs doesn't break game balance. Even cure wounds and healing word on wizard / sorcerer doesn't really do much. You are still restricted by spell slots and action economy.

Agreed. You're also limited by Concentration slot and durations of buff spells. At the end of the day it's hardly going to be unbalancing for a sorc to gain HP. Spell slots are normally better used for offensive abilities/buffs/debuffs rather than HP recovery. It might be nice occasionally but it isn't going to literally break the game, not in the way stuff like Animate Dead or Conjure X or Simulacrum can when used at the logical extreme.

I also have doubts that spell lists were carefuly chosen with balance in mind. I'm sure that was a general goal, but Bards get Magical Secrets by default, so having access to off-list spells is definitely considered in the game already. I think that spell lists were mostly chosen with theming in mind, with probably a token nod to balance.

[Davemeddlehed]

I'd be cautious with this. I agree with the 'logic' of the way magic works, but the WotC ruling is based on the logic of game balance.

If a spell is already on your list then game balance has been considered.

If it's not then there could be potentially game breaking (or at least game disrupting) cross class synergies.

Of the top of my head I'm thinking Hex or Armor of Agathys on a AT or EK, and Cure Wounds on a wizard/sorcerer.

I don't see how Hex or AoA disrupts the game. EK isn't exactly known for it's high damage dealing prowess. An extra 2d6(assuming level 5 since you wouldn't gain access to Hex until level 4) maximum per round isn't going to disrupt anything in my opinion. Nor will 5 temporary hp for essentially one time use.

[Aaron Underhand]

I don't see how Hex or AoA disrupts the game. EK isn't exactly known for it's high damage dealing prowess. An extra 2d6(assuming level 5 since you wouldn't gain access to Hex until level 4) maximum per round isn't going to disrupt anything in my opinion. Nor will 5 temporary hp for essentially one time use.

At level 5 with Polearm master or Two weapon fighting plus an action surge that 5d6 extra.

Maybe not a huge issue, I'll grant, but as I said I'd be cautious.

Cure wounds on the wizard equally.. arcane recovery means more cures than the cleric gets.

Plus both of these have flavor impacts - on the characters who get them in class.

Just saying the ruling as it exists make "game" sense to me.

[Joe the Rat]

so here we go beating the dead horse again i think i have a grasp of this feat but i am confused about several things.

this is what i understand:

1. on non casters it grants a once per long rest 1st level spell and 2 cantrips (pretty self explanatory)

2. if you are a caster it gives does the same as 1. but if you choose your casting class you get to use your regular slots for it as well


the part that is confusing the heck out of me is how it goes with other classes like

Arcane Trickster

Eldritch Knight

and since its casting mechanic is different Warlock

Basically can these classes use their spell slots to cast the first level spell from Magic Initiate in addition to the once a day from the feat?
Well, warlock is the easy one. Magic Missile isn't on the Warlock list, so you can't get it through Magic Initiate: Warlock. If you were, for example to grab Hellish Rebuke or Hex as your +1, then it would be a "known" spell, and you could cast it with your spell slots.

(On a related point: For multiclassing, slots are slots. You can cast warlock spells with spell slots, and cast sorcerer or cleric or whatever spells with pact slots. So a sorcerer/warlock multiclass could cast magic missile with pact magic slots)

AT & EK is a wee bit tricky. The learn their spells off of the wizard list, but with restrictions on what they can learn. That's not the issue - they can, at certain levels, learn any wizard spell, so the whole list counts as their spell list.

The trick is, do they count as wizards for magic initiate? In a broader context, do they count as wizards for any other purposes? Could my arcane trickster take MI: Wizard, grab shield, and then cast it with his spell slots? If my Eldritch Knight got a staff of fire, could he use it?

I'm not sure what the current rulings are, but for Magic Initiate, I'd allow it. I think it fits the spirit of the EK/AT caster as a "part time wizard." If you don't think it works, then a level of wizard would make the point moot (or make taking the feat moot).

[Citan]

I'd be cautious with this. I agree with the 'logic' of the way magic works, but the WotC ruling is based on the logic of game balance.

If a spell is already on your list then game balance has been considered.

If it's not then there could be potentially game breaking (or at least game disrupting) cross class synergies.

Of the top of my head I'm thinking Hex or Armor of Agathys on a AT or EK, and Cure Wounds on a wizard/sorcerer.


I don't think it really matters for game balance at all. Crawford is just doing a strictest RAW interpretation. Even AoA for EKs and ATs doesn't break game balance. Even cure wounds and healing word on wizard / sorcerer doesn't really do much. You are still restricted by spell slots and action economy.
Well...
- Shield as any Cleric beyond Arcane (obviously): you can now top most classes in terms of resilience, since you can stack heavy armor (Life/Tempest/War/Nature) + shield (class) + Shield of Faith (class) + Shield (which is especially nice since not all Domains gets equally good reaction).
- Goodberry: on a Life Cleric, if you can cast it as much as you want, this become by far the best feat. Life Goodberry greatness without any drawback.
- Healing Words or Bless on a Wizard: one of the few lacking areas of Wizard is now fixed.
- Healing Words on Sorcerer: being able to use Distant Healing Words on a regular basis without multiclassing? Great!
- Sanctuary: quickened Sanctuary for emergencies, or extended sanctuary to help your pal cast Leomund's Tiny Hut with some margin.
- Hellish Rebuke on a Draconic Sorcerer: now you get a great reaction for when people manage to hit you, potentially better than Shield when you are still in good shape.
- Bless on EK: why use anything else now? Especially with someone that has 1) great weapon attacks 2) great concentration 3) few slots.
- Absorb Element on a Draconic Sorcerer: another good way to use your Draconic bonus on a regular basis.

Is any of those examples game-breaking? Certainly not.
Is any of those examples a bit too good for what magnitude of benefit a feat should provide? Arguable.

I would tend to say that all of my examples are within reason, because after all, you are spending an ASI on this feat instead of bumping an important stat or taking another feat that provides permanent, strong advantage (bonus action use, extra movement, initiative etc).

My personal feeling on WoTC ruling is that it was more of a "preventive" decision rather than one carefully weighted after considering all potential power breaks.
So in my games, for now I would allow it to be just another "learned spell" that happens to have a one-time exclusive cast in addition to usual slots. When I happen to witness a situation when this create an unbalance (or if someone demonstrates a hard example), I may change...

Still, I would understand that some people consider it too cheap an investment to be allowed compared to the cost of a 1-level dip, either for purely mechanical/balance reasons, or also for fluff reasons (say a Fiend Warlock dipping Life Cleric, could be argued it would be difficult for him to master the learned spell up to the point he can cast it as naturally as the spells granted to him by his patron).

[Talionis]

I would compare the cost of a feat as being a higher cost than taking a one level dip in another class. That isn't wholly correct because your stats could make it hard for you to multiclass, but for most things other than role play I'd rather take a one level dip in another class.

I think it's appropriate to allow the first level spell to be cast with your other spell slots. It falls more in line with the rules for Multiclassing.