Advice for a one-dagger rogue?

[Togath]

I'm building an unchained rogue/ninja(since ninja seems to be basically an archetype and appears to play nice with unchained rogue) for a friends campaign, 7th level, and we're using the automatic bonus progression rules.
I ended up deciding on a one-weapon fighting style, focusing on a dagger(for concealment and fluff reasons), likely with a shield in the offhand(for an ac boost, not bashing).
...aaand I'm a little stuck on feats. Race is human, so I have A LOT of slots open.
My stats are 10 str, 20 dex, 10 con, 14 int, 10 wis, 15 cha, including the ABP and level 4 bonus.
Current feats are: possessed hand(human), extra ninja trick: rogue talent: Innocuous Servant(1, via retraining), quick draw(3), wave strike(5), and combat stamina (7).
Anyone have some suggestions? I do want to stay melee, not ranged, and will have ranks in bluff, stealth, disguise, and perception for sure.

[Togath]

Got a suggestion for Press to the Wall, anyone have thoughts?
Looking at it, it seems like a good way to trigger sneak attacks, but I'm not sure how often it will trigger(then again, I'm pretty sure I have the highest/second highest ac of the group).

[CharonsHelper]

I'm building an unchained rogue/ninja(since ninja seems to be basically an archetype and appears to play nice with unchained rogue)

No.

They do not play nice. That combination is not allowed.

You get to be either a Ninja or an Unchained Rogue. Not both.

If you and your friend want to houserule it in that's fine - but you shouldn't think that that's the way that the rules are written. (And - as the Ninja is to the core Rogue, it will be considerably more powerful than a normal Unchained Rogue.)

An Unchained Rogue & a Ninja are both playable and in the same ballpark of potency (probably with Unchained Rogue getting a slight edge) - the combination is much more powerful than either.

[Togath]

Why don't they play nice?
It exchanges features just like an archetype, and they're all features the unchained rogue has at the same levels?

[TheIronGolem]

Ninja isn't an archetype, it's an alternate class (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/alternate-classes) to the rogue. By RAW, you can't have levels in a given class and an alternate of that class. See also: Paladin->Antipaladin, Cavalier->Samurai

As for feats, I'd make Piranha Strike a priority (it's DEX-flavored Power Attack). Press to the Wall sounds cool thematically, but probably isn't going to be usable often enough to justify the cost. Could be worth picking up late to round out a DEX-fighter build, but I wouldn't make it fundamental unless your party has a reliable way of shaping the terrain to create obstacles on the fly. There's probably a spell for that but I don't know what it would be offhand.

[Serafina]

Making the Ninja Unchained is pretty simple, it just isn't RAW.
Give them the Weapon Finesse, the upgraded Sneak Attack, and Debilitating Strike. That's basically it, no further changes needed.

However, if you want to stick closer to RAW, I suggest the "Eldritch (https://forums.sufficientvelocity.com/threads/dungeons-and-dragons-megathread.9893/page-110#post-6400947) Ninja (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?477365-Eldritch-Scoundrel-a-T3-Rogue-Archetype-(with-spellcasting))" build instead.
It's basically a Unchained Rogue with the Eldritch Scoundrel Archetype, Magus Variant Multiclass with the Ki Arcana, the Ki Pool talent, and both the Vanish and Forgotten Trick ninja tricks.

This basically gives you access to all the Ninja tricks, and a ton of uses per day. It also makes you a spellcaster, vastly increasing your flexibility.
The only part that is RAW-iffy is that the Ki Pool talent is not on the list of approved talents for the Unchained Rogue - but technically you can bypass that by taking the "Rogue Talent" ninja trick, which still selects from the chained list.

This build only gets half the amount of sneak attack and talents - but both of those can be fixed with feats. Now the build also has variant multiclass eating up a lot of feats, so that's not an option - but if you're not taking two-weapon fighting, that's a few extra feats to spend.

[CharonsHelper]

The Unchained Rogue doesn't have Trap Sense, which the ninja trades away for No Trace. The Unchained Rogue instead has Danger Sense. While similar, they are not the same thing.

In addition - while alternate classes are similar to archetypes, they still aren't archetypes. So it still wouldn't work.

There is a 3pp Unchained Ninja. But it's not a Paizo rule.

[Togath]

Aha! Still... the gm seems fine with it(and the party's kinda high power anyway).
As for the terrain thing... very good point.
There's apparently a lot of "intrigue", though I'm not sure how enclosed the areas will be.
We do have casters on the team though, so stuff like Ice Spears(really under appreciated spell, in my opinion) may be an option.
I do have REALLY high odds of hitting, so piranha strike could indeed provide a nice boost.
(I also have really high ac, compared to most of the party, so options that could use that might be good too)

edit: though the GM has also suggested a 3rd party ninja. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/unchained-classes/rogue-unchained/alternate-classes/everyman-gaming---unchained-ninja).. Hmm. This might work good. Is this the one you meant?
They've also okayed the archetypes... Star Master? To get quick draw+easier ways to activate SA.

[Serafina]

The Unchained Rogue doesn't have Trap Sense, which the ninja trades away for No Trace. The Unchained Rogue instead has Danger Sense. While similar, they are not the same thing."This ability counts as trap sense for the purpose of any feat or class prerequisite, and can be replaced by any archetype class feature that replaces trap sense."
So really, while you're right that alternate classes are technically not archetypes, it's extremely simple to just treat the Ninja like a giant archetype for the Rogue, and thus apply it to the Unchained Rogue.

It's a damn shame that Paizo didn't do this very simple thing, and I sincerely hope they do fix it sometimes in the future.

[Particle_Man]

The prestige class Duellist might have some possibilities, if you are going one-handed anyhow.

I believe there is a knife-fighter archetype that increases sneak attack damage with daggers.

There is also the river rat trait which adds 1 damage with daggers (hey every little bit helps!)

[CharonsHelper]

So really, while you're right that alternate classes are technically not archetypes, it's extremely simple to just treat the Ninja like a giant archetype for the Rogue, and thus apply it to the Unchained Rogue.

It's a damn shame that Paizo didn't do this very simple thing, and I sincerely hope they do fix it sometimes in the future.

It was intentional. On the Paizo messageboards some of the designers have specifically come on and said that they don't WANT Unchained Rogue to apply to the Ninja alternate class.




There is also the river rat trait which adds 1 damage with daggers (hey every little bit helps!)

Even better - there is a Pharasma specific feat which gives you +2 to hit with daggers. (though you have to worship her)

In addition - if you insist upon a one-handed combat style, you might want to go with a Feint build since until level 8 you won't be giving up any attacks by using Improved Feint.

Since you won't be burning feats upon TWF, you might consider going the Moonlight Stalker route which gives you bonus to hit/damage whenever you have concealment (such as being invisible from ninja abilities) and eventually allows you to Feint as a swift action.

[Molosse]

A Scout/Knife Master UnRogue could work well for you.

Grabbing Canny Tumbler and Circling Mongoose give's you a fun little combo as a Full-Round Action allows you get to pop around a given target, triggering Acrobatics checks to avoid taking an AoO and, as you pass them, Canny Tumbler denies their Dex to AC and gives you a +2 to hit. Throw on some Daredevil Softpaws for another +2 to hit and the sweet extra of +5 to Acrobatics 10rds/day and you're golden.

Knife Master increases the damage you're doing with those SA's and gives you a stacking bonus to hiding your Dagger, which is what you asked for in the OP. Scout just let's you move about and still grab an initial SA from a charge or the like as you move into position.

Mix and match with Talents like Underhanded (+4 to Sleight of Hand and max SA damage on Surprise rd's) and you're good to go.


"This ability counts as trap sense for the purpose of any feat or class prerequisite, and can be replaced by any archetype class feature that replaces trap sense."
So really, while you're right that alternate classes are technically not archetypes, it's extremely simple to just treat the Ninja like a giant archetype for the Rogue, and thus apply it to the Unchained Rogue.

It's a damn shame that Paizo didn't do this very simple thing, and I sincerely hope they do fix it sometimes in the future.

Gotta agree with Charon honestly, UnRogue is an upgrade to base Rogue and functions at a similar level to the Ninja, an UnNinja would just be a better version of the UnRogue.

[Serafina]

Gotta agree with Charon honestly, UnRogue is an upgrade to base Rogue and functions at a similar level to the Ninja, an UnNinja would just be a better version of the UnRogue.Of course the Unchained Ninja would be better than the Unchained Rogue.
That's not a bad thing. Or at least, it's not a bad thing depending on playstyle and the rest of the group. In a game with lots of 2/3 spellcasters, or even full spellcasters, the Unchained Rogue will still fall behind eventually. That's less the case for the Ninja, so that's a good thing.

[Molosse]

Of course the Unchained Ninja would be better than the Unchained Rogue.
That's not a bad thing. Or at least, it's not a bad thing depending on playstyle and the rest of the group. In a game with lots of 2/3 spellcasters, or even full spellcasters, the Unchained Rogue will still fall behind eventually. That's less the case for the Ninja, so that's a good thing.

Can't say I've ever been a fan of having classes serve as straight upgrades to other classes, particularly at the specific role that class may try to fill, but sure. As you say if you're running a higher optimised game a shift up from UnRogue to UnNinja couldn't hurt.

[CockroachTeaParty]

Here's another feat suggestion: Lunge.

Get that sweet extra reach to slamma-jam more sneak attacks. Great when you can't quite get that last 5 ft. of movement you need, or if you just don't want to be too close to whatever it is you're fighting.

[CharonsHelper]

Here's another feat suggestion: Lunge.

Get that sweet extra reach to slamma-jam more sneak attacks. Great when you can't quite get that last 5 ft. of movement you need, or if you just don't want to be too close to whatever it is you're fighting.

Lunge is generally only useful if you're already using a reach weapon. That's so that you can attack someone, and then you still get an AOO when they move to hit you back.

[Calthropstu]

...

Buy more daggers.

[Particle_Man]

Good point about daggers. At the very least a cold iron one, maybe a silver one, and an adamantine one could be useful.

If you are not going TWF would it be worth it to consider Whirlwind Attack (heavy feat investment though)? Although it might be hard to set up the flank with everyone you would be Whirlwinding (but it could make a hell of an opener if you are positioned correctly and the others are flatfooted).