Pyrokineticist - anything to save it?

[weckar]

I've been reading up on this PrC, and I really like it mechanically - as it seems to be one of the few classes that really does its own thing without relying too much on advancing existing abilities.
That said, there does not seem to be much support for fire-based abilties outside of spellcasting and the class really isn't good (actually, it seems quite bad).

Is there any way to make one playable at around a T3 level?

[tyckspoon]

It's a lot like Monk and other low-tier classes, sadly; the best way to use it is to take as little of it as possible. In this case, Fire Lash is arguably one of the easier ways to get a persistent Power Attack compatible touch attack (the argument goes that it works like a whip, backed up by the statement that all feats that apply to whips can apply to it. Whips are one handed and treated as melee weapons, ergo Power Attack works with it. Normally pointless because of the Whip's restrictions on what it can damage, but Flame Lash overrides that bit.) Hand Afire is potentially a useful damage boost for an unarmed attacker. Nothing else is worth the levels spent to get there - there are some interesting and somewhat useful features, but nothing you couldn't get better versions of by spending your levels in an actual psionic class.

Since you're using an exotic weapon, more or less, you could look into combining it with things like Exotic Weapon Master or the 3rd Edition Lasher prestige class (might not be strictly RAW, but I feel this is pretty readily within Reasonable Person limits to ask of a DM.) But I'd probably just dip into that first level for Flame Lash, maybe the second because it's a BAB/+Saves level, and then go into/back to something like Warmind, Psychic Warrior, or full on Psion and just get your Pyromancy by selecting a handful of the Energy (X) powers. There's probably some feats around somewhere that would give you extra benefits for using a favored energy type, too.

[weckar]

I was considering entry through a non-psionic class, since all it requires is a single power point. Does that change matters at all (good analysis, btw)?

[Uncle Pine]

If you're just interested in Power Attacking with your elemental lash, you might want to consider one of the variant Pyrokineticists (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040625e) since fire resistance/immunity is very common. On the other hand, you can count the number of published critters with immunity to sonic damage with the fingers of one hand and it's not like rolling 1d6+Power Attack instead of 1d8+Power Attack will significantly impact your damage output. Ignore this message if you're instead planning to specifically create a fire-themed character.

[eggynack]

I was considering entry through a non-psionic class, since all it requires is a single power point. Does that change matters at all (good analysis, btw)?
Unlikely. As you note, the class only requires a single power point. That means you're gaining a single class level at most, and you're not going to do too much better than psychic warrior for that single level if you're going a combat oriented route, and that's probably the route you're going down anyways. Maybe you could do marginally better with barbarian, presumably with something like elan or half-giant, but I doubt these psionic races are the best options possible. So, if you're up by anything here, it's not too much.

[weckar]

I wasn't actually aware of the variants, so thanks for that :)

Frankly, I'd take any element if damage through it could somehow be buffed by items or feats... Are there any blanket buffs to damage types like that? Rider effects are as welcome as straight damage buffs.

[Uncle Pine]

For +2 LA (assuming LA buyoff is available) you can play as a phrenic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/phrenicCreature.htm) version of your race of choice and still qualify for Pyrokineticist while grabbing some neat features at the same time.

[weckar]

"creatures who advance by character class are usually not phrenic creatures"
That alone would veto it at our table.

[ShurikVch]

Maybe, Kineticist (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20030328b) would be better?

But if you completely uninterested in powers progression - then, to enter the PrC, you can just cast Mental Pinnacle (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/spells/mentalPinnacle.htm) on yourself

Also, if you will keep [fire] descriptor, then Astaroth - 4th-level vestige from Dragon #357 - make half of Fire damage vile

[weckar]

4th level vestiges require a mighty investment in binder, though. Still, nice idea.

[ShurikVch]

4th level vestiges require a mighty investment in binder, though. Still, nice idea.With Improved Binding feat - it's only 5 levels. It's a big dip, but still a dip

Also, how about the Kensai PrC?
Choose the Fire Lash as your Signature Weapon
Note: the most useful weapon SA will be not flaming (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#flaming) or flaming burst (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#flamingBurst), but vicious (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#vicious) - it's +2d6 fire damage, and your Fire Adaptation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/pyrokineticist.htm#fireAdaptation) will protect you from backfires

[Segev]

Kensai is an interesting advancement option, but has the issue of not advancing the Pyrokineticist, so it's a question of what you're trying to achieve.

For entry, I would suggest fighter or ranger, with a dip into psychic rogue, lurk, or psychic warrior for the power points. You can apply sneak attack to your fire lash, and if you go ranger or fighter, ranged weapon feats will apply to it as well (since it's a ranged touch attack). Point Blank Shot will be a boon for the extra to hit and damage. I suggest heavy full-BAB investment so you can maximize your ability to multi-attack.

Of note, the exact text of Fire Lash reads:
A pyrokineticist gains the ability to fashion a 15-foot-long whip of fire from unstable ectoplasm as a move-equivalent action. She takes no damage from a fire lash she creates, and if she releases her hold, it immediately dissipates. The lash deals 1d8 points of fire damage to a target within 15 feet on a successful ranged touch attack. A pyro can take Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization (if she otherwise meets the prerequisites) in conjunction with the fire lash, as well as any feats that apply to the use of a standard whip. The whip remains in existence as long as the pyrokineticist holds it.
It doesn't say that you are limited to just one.

Whips, notably, are not two-handed weapons.

You could, therefore, take two move-equivalent actions and make one for each of your two hands. (If you have more than two hands, even better.) This would make you eligible to use Two-Weapon Fighting with them. Since they're ranged weapons, Rapid Shot could also be applied. Oh, and if you do go Kensai and claim your fire lash as your signature weapon, all those bonuses would apply to every instance of it, which makes this one of the more efficient magic weapons out there for dual-wielders.

With Improved Trip, you can also knock your victim prone fairly easily, which I believe renders him flat-footed and thus vulnerable to sneak attacks. (Somebody will have to double-check me on this, though.)

Another potential dip would be Swordsage. Assassin Stance is another +2d6 sneak attack, and the Boost that summons a small fire elemental as a flanking buddy could be useful. (Though you're using a ranged weapon, so "flanking" is possibly not useful to you.)


If the fire lash is what you want to optimize, you'll want to focus on getting it as many extra-damage things as possible, and then multi-attacking with it.




If you're looking into actually homebrewing some adaptations, you might consider trying to link Soul Knife into it. (Yes, yes, it's also a weak class.) Try to work a way into making the fire lash count as a "form" for your soul blade, so you can apply the soul blade's benefits to it. This would work against the above-suggested multi-whip build, though, since there are explicit rules about splitting the soul blade into two weapons.

[J-H]

With Psionic Meditation, you can pump out a 30' range save or die every other round. If you can pick up Hustle and enough PP to support it, or another way of getting extra move actions, you can SoD every single round until you run out of extra move actions. This is at level 14, so (18 base cha + 2 racial +3 levelup + 6 item +1 tome = 30 cha) you're putting out a DC 24 save or die. With Ability Focus it's a DC 26, comparable to a wizard's Finger of Death, but you can do it all day long.

I just pulled some CR 14-16 monsters off the SRD and checked 6 of them. Fort saves were 14, 14, 19, 17, 18.
A 40% chance to instakill a level-appropriate big monster is not a bad class feature.

[weckar]

Wait, does it actually count as a 15ft long whip for the purposes of threatened area? Because that actually has potential. Otherwise, is the whip attack a melee or a ranged attack? Could a Duskblade channel through it?

[Flickerdart]

Wait, does it actually count as a 15ft long whip for the purposes of threatened area? Because that actually has potential. Otherwise, is the whip attack a melee or a ranged attack? Could a Duskblade channel through it?
The flame lash is a ranged touch attack, so it cannot threaten nor be used with anything that needs a melee attack (except feats).

[ShurikVch]

The flame lash is a ranged touch attack, so it cannot threaten nor be used with anything that needs a melee attack (except feats).1 level dip in Lasher PrC (Sword and Fist) gives Close Combat (which allow threaten) and Whip Lash (which make it count as melee weapon)

[Thurbane]

Some interesting builds can be found here: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VIII (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?160266)

[Red Fel]

Is there any way to make one playable at around a T3 level?

Play Pathfinder?

PF has its version (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/psionic-prestige-classes/pyrokineticist) of the Pyro, which bears a lot of obvious similarities to the original (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/pyrokineticist.htm), but with some improvements. For example, the PF Pyro's Manipulate Blaze ability makes for some useful battlefield control. Penetrating Fire allows the PF Pyro's ability to bypass Fire Resistance, obviously a major hindrance to the class. The PF Pyro can use Conflagration every 10 minutes instead of 1/day, and gains extra uses of Nimbus at level 10.

Perhaps most importantly, however, is the PF Pyro's interaction with the Mind Blade class feature (e.g. from the Soulknife (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/soulknife) class). PF Pyros with the Mind Blade feature can treat the Fire Lash as a Mind Blade, allowing them to enhance it and perform various Mind Blade-related effects and tricks with it, making it far more versatile. Of course, it helps that PF Soulknives are also a substantial improvement over D&D Soulknives.

[Eskil]

If you enter it via Ardent, one of the mantels, I think it was Natural World, gives you Graft Weapon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/graftWeapon.htm) so both Hand and Weapon Afire can be applied to your Flame lash. That's 1d8+4d6 at character level 10. Comparable to a Warlock's Eldritch Blast.
After doublechecking to see if I remembered right it turned out I did in fact not.

However:
Flame lash, hand and weapon afire are all (Ps) psi-like abilities, which, correct me if I'm wrong, means that sudden metamagic works on them.
Flame lash and weapon afire explicitly lasts until no longer wielded.
If maximized and empowered they deal (8+1d4+12+1d6) = 20+1d4+1d6 as a ranged weapon capable of full-attack. For as long as they're wielded.

Edit: Although, if if you're going for metamagic a persisted Flame Blade (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/flameBlade.htm) might be better?

[daremetoidareyo]

If you enter it via Ardent, one of the mantels, I think it was Natural World, gives you Graft Weapon so both Hand and Weapon Afire can be applied to your Flame lash. That's 1d8+4d6 at character level 10. Comparable to a Warlock's Eldritch Blast.
After doublechecking to see if I remembered right it turned out I did in fact not.

However:
Flame lash, hand and weapon afire are all (Ps) psi-like abilities, which, correct me if I'm wrong, means that sudden metamagic works on them.
Flame lash and weapon afire explicitly lasts until no longer wielded.
If maximized and empowered they deal (8+1d4+12+1d6) = 20+1d4+1d6 as a ranged weapon capable of full-attack. For as long as they're wielded.

psi like abilities are also considered spell like abilities, so you can empower and maximize them through, which is cool.

Consider a 2 level duskblade dip to channel spells through the lash. The duskblade spell list is very limited on this front however.

Consider entering the class from cleric 1/maiden of pain 1 (although you might be able to enter without the cleric dip at first level) in order to get the lasher ability. Which is the ability to transfer any touch attack you have through your whip. Fire devotion + pyro is a good thematic combo with that. If your DM demands that you begin with a base class, and you don't want to mess with devotion feats, Druid 1 is a good option too.

There is the lasher prestige class from 3.0's complete book of 3.0 warriors, the sword and fist.

Lastly, there is soulknife 4/warblade 1/pyrokinetocist 1/soulknife X, with dwarven urgrosh mindblade feat. You can then turn your firelash into your mindblade using warblade's weapon adaptation ability with that feat. It isn't that great a deal...

[Thurbane]

Consider a 2 level duskblade dip to channel spells through the lash. The duskblade spell list is very limited on this front however.

X/Duskblade 3/Ur-Priest X/Pyrokineticist X/Gish PrC X.

[Flickerdart]

1 level dip in Lasher PrC (Sword and Fist) gives Close Combat (which allow threaten) and Whip Lash (which make it count as melee weapon)

Those are not feats, so it doesn't work.

[Aggressive_Pear]

I know this isn't much and is controversial, but if your DM allows bloodlines, three levels in bloodline could increase the Bolt of Fire ability to 13d6 fire damage.

As stated before, Kensai won't work with the Pyro unless your DM is very against using alignment or you change it regularly.

You can get in without dips using some psionic races who start with power points, though most will lower your Charisma score and aren't as worth taking.

Nowhere does it say that Heat Death can't be used on things with fire resistance/immunity, though about any DM I know would make that a house rule. Heat death is also a full attack action, which can have some fun if you have effects that work with that kind of action. Though really, don't try and go this far in the class.

Horizon goggles (forget the source) give you a longer range for both your whip and bolt of fire.

Ability focus helps you with the low DC of Heat death.

It's intended to be a ranged striker class, which it does okay at if you don't want to run out of power points and have a bit more HP than a psion, so for lower tier games I have played it once or twice.

[ShurikVch]

Those are not feats, so it doesn't work.I'm sorry, but it looks like you're incorrect there:
Fire Lash (Ps)
A pyrokineticist gains the ability to fashion a 15-foot-long whip of fire from unstable ectoplasm as a move-equivalent action. She takes no damage from a fire lash she creates, and if she releases her hold, it immediately dissipates. The lash deals 1d8 points of fire damage to a target within 15 feet on a successful ranged touch attack. A pyro can take Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization (if she otherwise meets the prerequisites) in conjunction with the fire lash, as well as any feats that apply to the use of a standard whip. The whip remains in existence as long as the pyrokineticist holds it.Note:
A pyro can take Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization (if she otherwise meets the prerequisites) in conjunction with the fire lash, as well as any feats that apply to the use of a standard whip.It doesn't say something like "only" or "except" - thus, for me, it looks like a clarification, not restriction.
A pyrokineticist gains the ability to fashion a 15-foot-long whip of fire from unstable ectoplasmIt's a whip (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#whip)!

Among the feats which "apply to the use of a standard whip" is Vae School, which allow to to free trip damaged foe. If even this works with Fire Lash, then why Lasher's CFs shouldn't?

Note: Pyro-Lasher builds were posted on WotC forums, and nobody said "it doesn't works!"

[Thurbane]

Wasn't Lasher one of the PrCs that WotC annoyingly stated was rolled into the 3.5 Exotic Weapon master and no longer "officially" exists in 3.5?

FWIW, I ignore that that when it comes to the Master of Chains PrC.

[ShurikVch]

Wasn't Lasher one of the PrCs that WotC annoyingly stated was rolled into the 3.5 Exotic Weapon master and no longer "officially" exists in 3.5?No, it wasn't (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20050110x):
Lasher
SF 25
Not yet revised
--

[Flickerdart]

I'm sorry, but it looks like you're incorrect there:Note:It doesn't say something like "only" or "except" - thus, for me, it looks like a clarification, not restriction.It's a whip (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#whip)!

Among the feats which "apply to the use of a standard whip" is Vae School, which allow to to free trip damaged foe. If even this works with Fire Lash, then why Lasher's CFs shouldn't?

Note: Pyro-Lasher builds were posted on WotC forums, and nobody said "it doesn't works!"

That's not how rules work. The flame lash is not a whip. A special rule says - feats for whips also work with it. No rule says "it works like a whip" or anything similar. So no rule allows Lasher's abilities to work with it. Vae School works because it's a feat. Lasher is not a feat. It's RAW, it doesn't need to make sense.

What people wrote on a forum doesn't bother me in the slightest; I only care about what's written in the books.

[ShurikVch]

The flame lash is not a whip.It is.
15-foot-long whip of fire from unstable ectoplasm:smallcool:

[Flickerdart]

It is.:smallcool:
Yeah, that's a description. But a whip is a weapon and the flame lash is a psi-like ability. Without rules text to establish that the flame lash works like a whip in all respects, it does not.

Or will you also argue that you can use Lasher's class feature with the spells mystic lash, or dragonmark whip? What about ego whip?

[Uncle Pine]

It is.:smallcool:

This would be like saying that a Dragonmark Whip (Dragonmarked 150) is a whip, but it isn't. It's a spell (in Dragonmark Whip's case) and it works as specified. The spell doesn't say that you can apply whip-related feats or abilities to it, so you don't. A Pyrokineticist's Fire Lash specifies that you can apply whip-related feats to it, so you can. What you can't do is stacking arbitrarily whip-related abilities on it, because they aren't feats.

EDIT: Ninja'd, and with the same example too! :smallsigh:

[ShurikVch]

Yeah, that's a description. But a whip is a weapon and the flame lash is a psi-like ability.Yes, it's a psi-like ability, which produce a weapon as effect
Same thing as with Balor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/demon.htm#balor)'s "Vorpal Sword (Su)"

Without rules text to establish that the flame lash works like a whip in all respects, it does not.I'm looking at description of Balor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/demon.htm#balor)'s "Vorpal Sword (Su)", but don't see anything like "works like a longsword in all respects".
Does it mean Balor's sword is incomprehensible?


Or will you also argue that you can use Lasher's class feature with the spells mystic lashYes.
You can wield this weapon as if it were an actual whip and you were proficient with it.
or dragonmark whip?Probably not - a bit too different from "normal whip" description
What about ego whip?Certainly not - it doesn't produce any actual whips, it's just a name


This would be like saying that a Dragonmark Whip (Dragonmarked 150) is a whip, but it isn't. It's a spell (in Dragonmark Whip's case) and it works as specified. The spell doesn't say that you can apply whip-related feats or abilities to it, so you don't. A Pyrokineticist's Fire Lash specifies that you can apply whip-related feats to it, so you can. What you can't do is stacking arbitrarily whip-related abilities on it, because they aren't feats.Dragonmark Whip is just too different from "normal whip": can deliver touch spell, can't be disarmed or sundered...

[Flickerdart]

The balor's longsword is explicitly an existing magic weapon - a +1 vorpal longsword. The flame lash is not.



Dragonmark Whip is just too different from "normal whip": can deliver touch spell, can't be disarmed or sundered...

Flame lash delivers touch attacks, can't be disarmed or sundered.

[Segev]

The balor's longsword is explicitly an existing magic weapon - a +1 vorpal longsword. The flame lash is not.Eh... the flame lash can be argued to be just as much an existing magic item - a flaming whip - as the balor's longsword. The flaming whip just has some additional special rules applied.

Honestly, it's gray enough to be a DM call. Does the DM want to allow it?

[Flickerdart]

Eh... the flame lash can be argued to be just as much an existing magic item - a flaming whip - as the balor's longsword. The flaming whip just has some additional special rules applied.

No, a flaming whip magic item would be a +1 whip with the flaming property, which the lash is not.

The balor's ability says "the balor has this magic item." The flame lash ability says "you can make a ranged touch attack to deal damage, here are the rules for it." They are not even similar.

[AnachroNinja]

The balor's longsword is explicitly an existing magic weapon - a +1 vorpal longsword. The flame lash is not.



Flame lash delivers touch attacks, can't be disarmed or sundered.

Well you're right but you're also maybe wrong. The class does say you can use any whip specific feats with it, bit that's not all it says. To refer back to the original description again....


A pyro can take Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization (if she otherwise meets the prerequisites) in conjunction with the fire lash, as well as any feats that apply to the use of a standard whip. The whip remains in existence as long as the pyrokineticist holds it.

Emphasis mine. The flame lash, which is repeatedly called out as a whip, is explicitly a weapon like effect because it is itself noted as a valid target for weapon focus and weapon specialization, rather then simply taking advantage of those feats when applied to whips.

Now, I do not think this gives it the explicit ability to qualify for the aforementioned class features, but it certainly does put it in a much more grey area mechanically that I believe necessitates DM adjudication. It is a unique weapon like effect that is referred to as being a whip after all.

[Flickerdart]

Emphasis mine. The flame lash, which is repeatedly called out as a whip, is explicitly a weapon like effect because it is itself noted as a valid target for weapon focus and weapon specialization, rather then simply taking advantage of those feats when applied to whips.

All polar bears are mammals, but not all mammals are polar bears. All weapon-like effects qualify for Weapon Focus, but not all things that qualify for Weapon Focus are weapon-like effects.

[AnachroNinja]

All polar bears are mammals, but not all mammals are polar bears. All weapon-like effects qualify for Weapon Focus, but not all things that qualify for Weapon Focus are weapon-like effects.

So your positing a theory in which the flame lash is not a weapon like effect despite being subject to rules and feats related to weapons and being described as being a whip, which is a weapon?

I'm just going to chalk this up as you having nothing worthwhile to contribute to this and stop responding. Enjoy your day.

[Flickerdart]

So your positing a theory in which the flame lash is not a weapon like effect despite being subject to rules and feats related to weapons and being described as being a whip, which is a weapon?

I'm just going to chalk this up as you having nothing worthwhile to contribute to this and stop responding. Enjoy your day.

Flame Lash is like a whip in two specific ways that are listed - it can get Weapon Focus/Specialization, and it can get feats for whips. If it were a whip they would just say it is a whip. There would be no need to highlight two vary small components of what it means to be a whip, because these rules would be implicit in it being a whip already.

This is basic logic, and I'm sorry that it distresses you to read it.

[Red Fel]

I'm going to go with Flicker on this one. Aside from calling it a whip, the ability doesn't explicitly say it follows the normal rules for a whip; the fact that it has to call out "any feats that apply to the use of a standard whip" suggests that it is not a standard whip; if it was, you wouldn't have to say those feats applied. Further, consider the damage - a Fire Lash deals damage on a ranged touch attack against any target within its 15 foot reach. By contrast, a normal whip (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#whip) deals melee, not ranged damage, and not touch damage. In fact, a normal whip deals nonlethal damage, and deals no damage to anything with a +1 armor bonus or +3 natural armor bonus to AC. The Pyro's flexible projection of flame, on the other hand, straight-up deals fire damage, touch attack (so it laughs at your armor bonuses), not non-lethal. So, fairly distinct from the normal model.

It is a whip-like projection of power which can be treated as a whip for the purpose of certain feats. That doesn't mean that it is a whip for any other purpose.

[ShurikVch]

By contrast, a normal whip (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#whip) deals melee, not ranged damageFirstly, no such thing as "melee" or "ranged" damage - damage is damage
And secondly, Lasher is unupdated 3.0 PrC; Whip was a ranged weapon in 3.0

and not touch damage.Firstly, no such thing as "touch" damage
And secondly, any weapon can make touch attacks - just usually it doesn't cause damage; also, normal (nonmagical), but incorporeal whip will do touch attacks

[AnachroNinja]

I'm going to go with Flicker on this one. Aside from calling it a whip, the ability doesn't explicitly say it follows the normal rules for a whip; the fact that it has to call out "any feats that apply to the use of a standard whip" suggests that it is not a standard whip; if it was, you wouldn't have to say those feats applied. Further, consider the damage - a Fire Lash deals damage on a ranged touch attack against any target within its 15 foot reach. By contrast, a normal whip (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#whip) deals melee, not ranged damage, and not touch damage. In fact, a normal whip deals nonlethal damage, and deals no damage to anything with a +1 armor bonus or +3 natural armor bonus to AC. The Pyro's flexible projection of flame, on the other hand, straight-up deals fire damage, touch attack (so it laughs at your armor bonuses), not non-lethal. So, fairly distinct from the normal model.

It is a whip-like projection of power which can be treated as a whip for the purpose of certain feats. That doesn't mean that it is a whip for any other purpose.

I'll address this with you at least. First, my point was not that it conclusively works with the PRC. My point was that it is a grey area because the ability creates what appears to be a weapon like effect, since it can be used with weapon focus/specialization (and that's seperate from its ability to qualify for whip specific feats). On top of that, it's descriptive text frequently refers to it as a whip. That does not mean that it is equivalent to the in game object "whip". By the same token "Whip, Mighty" from A&E guide is a seperate object but it is still a whip in a general sense. Ditto whip daggers.

We have a psi like ability that creates a physical object made of fire that is referred to as a whip, is subject to general weapon feats like weapon focus, specifically benefits from whip specific feats, and generally functions in a way consistent with similar effects like Eldritch Glaive or a brilliant energy whip with thematic differences.

I do not believe that there is conclusive RAW evidence for it to function with the PRC in question. I do believe that it is vague and subject to GM interpretation and that it is impossible to definitively say it's NOT compatible either.

[nijineko]

The point of the OP was to save the Pyrokineticist, so the entire argument about "is it/isn't it a whip" is detracting from the point.

The REAL question is does it help boost / save the prestige class, or not?

If yes, then it is a whip, end of discussion. If no, then it isn't a whip, also end of discussion.



MOVE ON.



In my opinion, it is a flavorful addition and makes for some fun and interesting synergy and thus should be allowed. Just think of all the things you could do "with your mind"... via a flaming whip. the comedic value alone should make it allowed, not to mention the potential cool value.

What else would make this prestige better would be allowing it to have a power list of a very limited number of powers, all selected from amongst the energy related powers, a few power points, and limit the energy selection of each power to whatever energy variant of the kineticist you happened to pick. maybe allow control <energy type> as a free ability, too.

[Thurbane]

I know it's not exactly the focus of this thread, but I'm interesting in finishing this build now: Human Bard 2/Duskblade 3/Pyrokineticist 1/Ur-Priest 4/X 10

Feats:
H Hidden Talent
1 Able Learner
3 Iron Will
6 Spell Focus (evil)

[weckar]

Thurbane, doesn't that build rather fall apart quickly? You need a melee attack to channel after all, and the whip explicitly makes ranged attacks.

[Thurbane]

Thurbane, doesn't that build rather fall apart quickly? You need a melee attack to channel after all, and the whip explicitly makes ranged attacks.

I may have been misunderstanding then; I thought it was treated as a melee attack?

TBH, whips and psionics aren't my strong suit...

[daremetoidareyo]

TBH, whips and psionics aren't my strong suit...

You're so vanilla, Thurbane ;)

[weckar]

Hmmm, would the Peerless Archer Power Shot ability stack with Power Attack on it? How would that even work?

[nijineko]

I may have been misunderstanding then; I thought it was treated as a melee attack?

TBH, whips and psionics aren't my strong suit...

why would that be, i'm pretty sure that it is a melee weapon?


The whip is treated as a melee weapon with 15-foot reach, though you don’t threaten the area into which you can make an attack. In addition, unlike most other weapons with reach, you can use it against foes anywhere within your reach (including adjacent foes).

so, no, it doesn't make "ranged attacks" it simply has reach, and unlike most reach weapons, can attack anywhere inside the reach.


However, the fire lash does make a "ranged touch attack", so that cross over wouldn't work, unless there is some feat out there which blends the rules of melee and ranged somehow.

A simple fix would be to change the prestige's fire lash so that it functions exactly like a physical whip, other than the material, damage, and disappearance act.

[Fouredged Sword]

At one point I was playing around with the idea of an Elan Barbarian (whirling frenzy) 2/ fighter 2 / Psion 1 / Pyro 5 / Warmind 10 for a low op game.

[weckar]

So I decided to try the class out. Will let you know how it goes. Using the Lash as a primary mode of attack, with Zen Archery and Serenity to make a SAD Paladin chassis for it. I guess my only true concern is spell resistance... No way to overcome that, I guess - and the Level I get to overcome it is litterally 0 as far as I can see :P
Or does SR not apply? I never quite got when it does and when it doesn't. Is it like an Orb in that way?

[Uncle Pine]

So I decided to try the class out. Will let you know how it goes. Using the Lash as a primary mode of attack, with Zen Archery and Serenity to make a SAD Paladin chassis for it. I guess my only true concern is spell resistance... No way to overcome that, I guess - and the Level I get to overcome it is litterally 0 as far as I can see :P
Or does SR not apply? I never quite got when it does and when it doesn't. Is it like an Orb in that way?

Fire Lash isn't subjected to Spell Resistance (or Power Resistance) because it's not written anywhere. The only reason someone could think of it being subjected to PR is because it's a psi-like ability, but:

Psi-like abilities do not work in a null psionics field and are subject to power resistance if the power or spell the ability duplicates would be subject to power resistance.
Fire Lash replicates no power, so it's not subjected to power resistance.

[weckar]

I see. The section of the SRD relating to SLAs didn't call out that only replicating spells were subject to SR, so I wasn't sure. Doubly so with Magic/Psi transparency.

[ShurikVch]

I just noticed: nobody on the whole thread even mentioned the Person_Man (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/member.php?15131-Person_Man)'s Flaming Homer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=4108954&postcount=22), so - there it is

[Uncle Pine]

I see. The section of the SRD relating to SLAs didn't call out that only replicating spells were subject to SR, so I wasn't sure. Doubly so with Magic/Psi transparency.
You're right about the SRD saying that:

Spell-like abilities are subject to spell resistance and to being dispelled by dispel magic.
I had never noticed this before because I took for granted that was only true if the original spell was subject to SR, as the full context is:

A spell-like ability can be disrupted just as a spell can be. Spell-like abilities are subject to spell resistance and to being dispelled by dispel magic.
Because of this, I checked the Rules Compendium and this rule was made more clear:

Spell-like abilities are subject to being dispelled by dispel magic and to spell resistance if the spell the ability resembles or duplicates is subject to spell resistance.

[Heliomance]

I made this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18176116&postcount=132) build with Pyrokineticist, which I was quite pleased with. It does rely on the interpretation that the fire lash is a whip in all respects that matter and thus works with Lasher though.

[CharonsHelper]

A bit off topic - but have you considered Pathfinder's Kinetiscist class? You can go fire based to make a very solid pyrokinetiscist (they even have a way to keep you from being useless against most things immune to fire). It's not really a spell-caster at all, though they get some of the utility of such.

It fills a similar role in a group as an archer, but with more utility, AOEs, touch attacks, but a bit less single target damage. (This is in comparison to Pathfinder archers - which are considerably more potent than their 3.x equivalents and is generally considered Pathfinder's most potent martial combat style.)

[Red Fel]

A bit off topic - but have you considered Pathfinder's Kinetiscist class? You can go fire based to make a very solid pyrokinetiscist. It's not really a spell-caster at all, though they get some of the utility of such.

It fills a similar role in a group as an archer, but with more utility, AOEs, touch attacks, but a bit less single target damage. (This is in comparison to Pathfinder archers - which are considerably more potent than their 3.x equivalents and is generally considered Pathfinder's most potent martial combat style.)

The Kineticist has its own share of problems. More importantly, though, as has been mentioned upthread, PF also has a port of the Pyrokineticist - the very same class being discussed here, but with improvements.

[Calthropstu]

I am going to agree with those saying gm call. The rules say "Makes a whip of flame..."

Flame is the material for the whip, and a whip is a whip. It could be argued that it is merely descriptive text, especially since it does not go on to give the usual weapon stats generally done with weapons. Put the arguments to the gm, and let him make the ruling.

[Flickerdart]

I may have been misunderstanding then; I thought it was treated as a melee attack?

TBH, whips and psionics aren't my strong suit...

No, it's a ranged touch attack, which the description of the ability explicitly states. Regular whips are melee attacks, but this is not a whip.

[Segev]

If we're honest with ourselves, it's going to be the DM's call whether the fire lash qualifies for Lasher PrC perks or not. If the DM thinks it's cool and not broken, he'll probably allow it. If he thinks it's stupid or broken, he'll probably forbid it.

It is, perhaps, more constructive of us to discuss whether Lasher is worth taking if it is allowed to work with the fire lash. Not conceding any RAW points on whether it "should" be allowed or not, but simply investigating what the consequences are if it is.

If it's not worth it, then it is a moot point anyway.

[Uncle Pine]

Actually, are we 100% sure you can make iteratives with a Fire Lash?

[Segev]

Actually, are we 100% sure you can make iteratives with a Fire Lash?

Well, there are two ways to read it. First, the text again for convenience:


A pyrokineticist gains the ability to fashion a 15-foot-long whip of fire from unstable ectoplasm as a move-equivalent action. She takes no damage from a fire lash she creates, and if she releases her hold, it immediately dissipates. The lash deals 1d8 points of fire damage to a target within 15 feet on a successful ranged touch attack. A pyro can take Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization (if she otherwise meets the prerequisites) in conjunction with the fire lash, as well as any feats that apply to the use of a standard whip. The whip remains in existence as long as the pyrokineticist holds it.

One way to read it is to assume that the move action to create it also lets the pyrokineticist make a single attack with it, ranged touch and d8 fire damage, etc. It does say the whip remains as long as the pyrokineticist holds it, but if we read it this way, its existence is just fluff because the one attack it was allowed to make (as part of the move action creating it) is already over.

A more sensible way to read it is that it takes a move action to create it. Once created, it is a weapon (possibly counting as a whip; possibly not) that does ranged touch attacks and d8 fire damage. It remains extant (requiring no additional actions to re-create it) as long as the pyrokineticist holds it. In this case, using it is an attack action. Which can be done with a standard action or as part of a full attack, as any attack action can be.

[weckar]

fwiw, our table is using the second reading - not even having considered the first.

Lasher seems to only really give one extra attack onto the iteratives and some 'third hand' tricks that will mostly not work due to the lethal and intangible nature of the whip itself.

[Segev]

fwiw, our table is using the second reading - not even having considered the first.Indeed, that's what I'd expect. I wouldn't have considered the first until I gave that entry a very, very close parsing to try to see if I was missing anything in the denotative text that would make the second reading inaccurate.

I am convinced the second reading is, in addition to being a valid interpretation of the RAW, the clear RAI and the only sensible way to read it. (Discounting any house rules.)


Lasher seems to only really give one extra attack onto the iteratives and some 'third hand' tricks that will mostly not work due to the lethal and intangible nature of the whip itself.I dunno; if I'm allowing Lasher, I'd probably allow the "third hand" stuff, though the fact that it's burning fire would still be problematic. But really, I'm probably house ruling at this point; if I'm honest, I'm going to allow cool toys if I'm allowing the classes to work together like this at all.

[nijineko]

... if I'm honest, I'm going to allow cool toys if I'm allowing the classes to work together like this at all.

+1 for rule of cool!