How to get True Mind Switch on a wizard?

[RoboEmperor]

Due to Shadowcraft Mage's ability to rely on Silent Image exclusively, I realized with Arcane Thesis, you can cast all your spells silently and without moving, which means I can True Mind Switch myself into a construct of my creation!

That is... if I get True Mind Switch on a wizard.

Can I use Wyrm Wizard's Spell Research to accomplish this feat? With the whole psionic-magic transparency thing. I'm very new to psionics so if someone could point me to the relevant RAW rulings that could be awesome.

[Zanos]

You could purchase a power stone. The low save DC isn't an issue if it's a creature under your control. You'll have to make a UPD check, but boosting your skills checks hilarious high shouldn't be an issue for a prepared caster.

[Psyren]

which means I can True Mind Switch myself into a construct of my creation!

Isn't TMS mind-affecting though?

[khadgar567]

plus there is the spell research option on D&D and pathfinder if i remember correctly so all you need to do is crack your knuckles and research the spell you want

[Zanos]

Isn't TMS mind-affecting though?

A creature can voluntarily forego a saving throw and willingly accept a spell’s result. Even a character with a special resistance to magic(for example, an elf's resistance to sleep effects) can suppress this quality.
Even if your DM doesn't buy that, I think you can use the humanoid essence spells from Ebberon and then dispel it after the mind switch.

[Psyren]

Even if your DM doesn't buy that, I think you can use the humanoid essence spells from Ebberon and then dispel it after the mind switch.

Not to kick off a 40-page debate, but I've always read the Elf's immunity as only being suppressable because it specifies magic. The construct's immunity to mind-affecting meanwhile applies across the board, even to non-magical mind-affecting things. It's not a "special resistance to magic" - rather it applies to lots of things, magic included.

[Zanos]

Not to kick off a 40-page debate, but I've always read the Elf's immunity as only being suppressable because it specifies magic. The construct's immunity to mind-affecting meanwhile applies across the board, even to non-magical mind-affecting things. It's not a "special resistance to magic" - rather it applies to lots of things, magic included.
Not particularly interested in debating it either. That one line has been beaten to death by as many sides as there are letters in it.

In any case, greater humanoid essence, if allowed, almost certainly works.

[OldTrees1]

Hire a Psion. It only takes 3 manifestings of True Mind Switch for a 3rd party to swap you and your target.

[RoboEmperor]

Hire a Psion. It only takes 3 manifestings of True Mind Switch for a 3rd party to swap you and your target.

and 30,000xp.

I'm more interested in doing it myself than hire outside help.


A mind-affecting power works only against creatures with an Intelligence score of 1 or higher.

Funny, I don't see anywhere that the spell grants an intelligence score, meaning shouldn't this spell be an auto-kill on non-warforges?

Alright, screw it. D&D just doesn't like you making your own immortal non-undead body. I'm a just roll a warforge.

Hey that's a thought! Make my own warforge, and TMS with it! How do you create a Warforge, anyone know? Last time I checked the knowledge was lost or something.

[Zanos]

You can grant a construct an intelligence score with awaken construct.

[ShurikVch]

Due to Shadowcraft Mage's ability to rely on Silent Image exclusively, I realized with Arcane Thesis, you can cast all your spells silently and without moving, which means I can True Mind Switch myself into a construct of my creation!

That is... if I get True Mind Switch on a wizard.

Can I use Wyrm Wizard's Spell Research to accomplish this feat? With the whole psionic-magic transparency thing. I'm very new to psionics so if someone could point me to the relevant RAW rulings that could be awesome.Wyrm Wizard (or Recaster) should work, because Chameleon Crafting feat (Dragon #349) allow to make scrolls with psionic powers, thus making True Mind Switch into spell

Another variant - Mind Transfer spell (Evocation [Mind-Affecting], Sorcerer/Wizard 5, Will negates) from Call of Cthulhu d20 (officially approved by WotC to be included into D&D games)

[Coidzor]

There's the Haunt Shift trick, but it only works to make a custom body into an animated object under your control.

[Segev]

Magic jar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magicJar.htm) is the wizard's equivalent of mind switch. Getting it to allow you to permanently take over another body is hard, however. But let's go with your desire to inhabit a golem. The easiest kind of golem to do this with would be a stone golem. Why? We'll get to that in a minute.

First, let's examine just how long you can stay out of your own body via magic jar by itself. The key here is to know what happens when magic jar expires due to the duration running out.


If the spell ends while you are in the magic jar, you return to your body (or die if your body is out of range or destroyed). If the spell ends while you are in a host, you return to your body (or die, if it is out of range of your current position), and the soul in the magic jar returns to its body (or dies if it is out of range). Destroying the receptacle ends the spell, and the spell can be dispelled at either the magic jar or at the host’s location.

This specifies two states which, if you are in either, you return to your body (if your body is alive and in range) or die (if your body is dead or out of range) when the spell ends.

Trick number 1: Poor Man's Lich
Exploiting the loophole that there are states other than "alive," "dead," and "destroyed," you could cast magic jar, have your body slain and animated as a skeleton or zombie, and then return to your body (that just happens to be a mindless undead creature when you're not in it). Now you are a skeleton or zombie, but still retain your mind and soul. It is, after all, your body.

For this trick, you can either possess a patsy to do the slaying and animation yourself, or you can have a trusted friend do it for you. (Warning: you'd best really trust that friend; he will control your undead body until he releases it, even when you inhabit it.)

This isn't TOO exciting, though it does make you immune to age limits, since you're undead and can't die of old age.

Trick number 2: Statuesque Immortality
As before, cast magic jar to get out of your body. Now, cast flesh to stone on it to turn it into a statue. Then, cast animate object on it, and use permanency. You will need help, or to be able to cast cleric spells. Then return to your now-animate body. It's still your body, so you can do this. You're now an animate stone statue with your capabilities.

Trick number 3: Stone Golem Body
This is the one that is closest to what I think the OP is asking for. As in trick 2, magic jar out of your body. But then, enlarge person it so it's Large size before you turn it to stone. This time, you'll definitely want a patsy (or willing assistant) to let you borrow their body for an extended period of time.

Some key things to note: magic jar does not say what happens if you're in a second magic jar when the first expires, nor what happens if you're in a host possessed thanks to said second jar. Since it doesn't say, in either case, that you return to your body, you can chain magic jars one right after another, casting the second slightly before the first ends and hanging out in the jar before returning to possess the donor once more.

This is important, because it will buy you time to work on your Craft Construct project: you're going to use your own enlarged statue as the basis for a stone golem (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/golem.htm#stoneGolem). When the golem is complete and animated, it still will be your body, so you can just end magic jar by returning to it. Voila: you are a stone golem.


An issue with these stunts is that skeletons, zombies, animated objects, and stone golems are not known for their ability to speak. It is questionable whether you'll be able to cast spells with verbal components once you've done any of these. There are likely solutions to this minor problem, and if so, it renders you into a body that is less prone to mortal frailties than before. The last one even gives you all the golem immunities! (Arguably, you're not immune to mind-affecting, since YOUR type is not Construct even if your body's is, but that's between you and your DM.)

This next trick is designed to get around this, and be even better for picking optimal bodies:

Trick number 4: Karla's Crown
Named after the character from Record of the Lodoss War, this technique exploits the time-buying strategy of the third trick, but will have you crafting something else.

Once out of your own body, go ahead and turn it to stone. Then, use a permanent shrink item on it to get it down to a pocket-portable size. You're going to be making an amulet out of it. Using the rules for creating intelligent items, the intellect this amulet will have controlling its magic abilities will be your own (imbued when you return to your own body). If you prefer, you can use polymorph any object on the statue rather than shrink item, it will natively have a permanent duration that way and can force it into any inanimate shape you want.

You're now going to create an item that continuously uses magic jar. The base cost of this is 13*7*2000 = 182,000 gp. Sub-epic in gp cost, thankfully. Of course, since you're crafting it, it's only going to cost you 91,000 gp in materials. Oh, and don't forget the 100 gp for the material focus. You'll be working a gem into this amulet, too. You likely want to give this intelligent item both the power to speak and communicate telepathically; it will make your life easier when you're inside it.

When the project is complete, you will end the spell as part of the final step of imbuing the intelligence (yourself) into the magic item that you've made out of your own body. Because you're now a magic item that continuously casts magic jar, you are, in essence, permanently in the vessel that spell creates. Any valid targets that come into range can now be possessed, assuming they fail their saves.

Have your host body wear your amulet-self, and the worst that can happen is a dispel magic temporarily suppresses it. This returns you to the amulet, and as soon as the dispel effect stops suppressing the amulet's magic and the spell restores itself, you can hop out and into a new host.

(This, incidentally, also means you're particularly vulnerable to anti-magic fields, so do be careful.)

However, this gives you ultimate versatility in possessing various useful bodies.

[RoboEmperor]

@Segev
Holy mother ******* ****, you genius! Option #3 is just, holy ****

Screw true mind switch. Segev, I love you. I'm gonna start a new thread discussing your methods.

As I said before, I am gonna be a shadowcraft mage specialist so with arcane thesis:silent image I should be able to cast silent and still spells as the golem no problem. I might attempt to be a sorcerer instead of a wizard too, because I like being super specialized.

edit:As for your concern about multiple castings of Magic Jar, I believe by RAW all spells cast later override the earlier spells, so the second magic jar casting will override your first magic jar casting, allowing you to stay in the magic jar instead of returning to your statue of a body. It's like double casting PaO. The second casting makes your new form Permanent and you stay in that form until it expires, regardless of whether your 1st casting of PaO ends or not. Now I know there's a lot of debate on the subject, but PaO permanent duration is off-topic.


Same Effect with Differing Results

The same spell can sometimes produce varying effects if applied to the same recipient more than once. Usually the last spell in the series trumps the others. None of the previous spells are actually removed or dispelled, but their effects become irrelevant while the final spell in the series lasts.

[Jack_Simth]

Some key things to note: magic jar does not say what happens if you're in a second magic jar when the first expires, nor what happens if you're in a host possessed thanks to said second jar. Since it doesn't say, in either case, that you return to your body, you can chain magic jars one right after another, casting the second slightly before the first ends and hanging out in the jar before returning to possess the donor once more.A fairly easy solution for this: Imprison Possessor, Book of Vile Darkness. Gets you quite stuck in whatever body you're in until it's dispelled. If you cast it yourself, that's not a problem.

[RoboEmperor]

Oh and I just like to add, you don't need a donor, just make your own skeleton via animate dead and magic jar its body. It's a necromancy spell so I don't see a problem possessing a skeleton instead of a donor.


A fairly easy solution for this: Imprison Possessor, Book of Vile Darkness. Gets you quite stuck in whatever body you're in until it's dispelled. If you cast it yourself, that's not a problem.

Other than it being a 3.0 material, I don't see a problem with this. It specifically says makes Magic Jar Permanent.

[Jack_Simth]

Oh and I just like to add, you don't need a donor, just make your own skeleton via animate dead and magic jar its body. It's a necromancy spell so I don't see a problem possessing a skeleton instead of a donor.
Target requires a soul, and a mindless undead is spelled out as not having one in Magic Jar.

A Simulacrum, on the other hand....

[RoboEmperor]

Target requires a soul, and a mindless undead is spelled out as not having one in Magic Jar.

A Simulacrum, on the other hand....

Yeah, I have a small memory capacity so if I am reading a new spell, I forget the other one I was reading. Thanks for pointing that out.

edit: I don't see anywhere in the spell description that you have to target a creature with a soul. I just says mindless undead don't have a soul.

[Segev]

Target requires a soul, and a mindless undead is spelled out as not having one in Magic Jar.

A Simulacrum, on the other hand....

Actually, it never says the target has to have a soul. It merely says that the target's soul is put in the jar. If the target has a null for a soul, then nothing goes into the jar, but your spirit still goes into the target body.

[RoboEmperor]

Actually, it never says the target has to have a soul. It merely says that the target's soul is put in the jar. If the target has a null for a soul, then nothing goes into the jar, but your spirit still goes into the target body.

Yeah that's what I thought. So yeah, screw the donor, get your self an animated skeleton.

Also, i think your type will change to Construct, and your hit die will increase to d10 + whatever flat hp bonus your construct has. If you look at the Necropolitan template, they change your hit die so same logic here, your body is changed so everything related to your physical stats will change, including type and hp.

edit: then again, monsters as races gain class hp instead of racial hp when they level up including golems so... this is confusing! I mean your new golem body has an hp so you should have that hp, but I guess if you advance in level you only gain your class hp.

edit2: I don't think enlarge person works here. After the spell ends I think your statue will shrink, I think that's how it works by RAW, someone needs to double check.

[RoboEmperor]

Alright bumping this thread.

Magic Jar method fails for me and my DM at least.

My other thread showed that Greater Humanoid Essence specifically says it allows constructs to be affected by mind-affecting spells. Also both Elves' immunity to sleep and Golem's immunity to magic are both EXTRAORDINARY abilities, meaning if one can suppress their own Ex ability to an immunity, then all creatures can suppress their own Ex ability to an immunity, and combined with the Spell Resistance Voluntary Lowering rule, Golems can voluntarily be affected by spells.

So I am back to True Mind Switch.

SO HOW CAN I GET TRUE MIND SWITCH ON A WIZARD????

Those of you who say "hire a psion", that is a negative. Depending on the existence of such NPCs is a definite NO.

Those of you who say "Buy a Power Stone" is also a negative, same reasons as above.

Those of you who say "Wish for a Power Stone", well, you need 20153xp + 5000xp = 25,153xp to wish for one, meaning you gotta be at least level 25 to wish for one, meaning you have to be epic, so that's a no too :(

There's gotta be a way for me to obtain a Power Stone of True Mind Switch, or get it as a spell on the wizard without resorting to free wish. I mean, it's a freaking wizard! Wizards are Tier 1 monsters!

I really do appreciate everyone who has helped me thus far on my quest for a weirdo character trying to make his own shadow construct body and shadow construct selling business.

How about some form of Craft Psionic Items feat + ambrosia + some way to ignore the power requirement?

[Jack_Simth]

Those of you who say "hire a psion", that is a negative. Depending on the existence of such NPCs is a definite NO.

Those of you who say "Buy a Power Stone" is also a negative, same reasons as above.
Hmm. Well, do you think you can get a Psion(Telepath) or Psionic Artificer cohort via Leadership? You could have them craft it for you, feeding them Ambrosia (or Liquid Pain / Dark Craft XP / Souls, if you are in the deep end of the alignment pool) and cash for the purpose.

[Segev]

We're back to a more fundamental question, someoneoneone11: is your DM comfortable with you doing this at all? If he isn't, it won't matter what you come up with, in the rules or not; he's going to make it fail. Ask him if he's okay with you doing this at all. Don't bring it up as something hypothetical. Because pressing for loopholes and tricks in the rules won't help you if the DM simply doesn't want it to happen.

[RoboEmperor]

Hmm. Well, do you think you can get a Psion(Telepath) or Psionic Artificer cohort via Leadership? You could have them craft it for you, feeding them Ambrosia (or Liquid Pain / Dark Craft XP / Souls, if you are in the deep end of the alignment pool) and cash for the purpose.

He doesn't like it when us, the PCs, get "lucky". He wants us to do everything ourselves. He views finding an NPC that so happens to have everything you wanted as lucky. You can make a really OP PC, but not a leadership cohort, hireling, mercenary, etc. because you are getting lucky finding such capable help.

That's why he doesn't sell high level items. You got lucky such a merchant with such stock exists.

He is a robinson crusoe type guy. He puts us in an environment devoid of resources. The cities have magic supplies in stock for crafting but that's as far as it goes. Any magic item we want we gotta make ourselves or kill a boss in the campaign who has it including bags of holding.

This is most apparent with wizards. If they want more spells outside of the 2 per level, they have to use spell research costs for additional spells and only for existing wizard spells unless of course, we find a spellbook or scrolls during our adventures.


We're back to a more fundamental question, someoneoneone11: is your DM comfortable with you doing this at all? If he isn't, it won't matter what you come up with, in the rules or not; he's going to make it fail. Ask him if he's okay with you doing this at all. Don't bring it up as something hypothetical. Because pressing for loopholes and tricks in the rules won't help you if the DM simply doesn't want it to happen.

Yeah he is comfortable with everything, as long as it's RAW legal, doesn't break the game, and we did it ourselves. We are currently in a medium to high optimization campaign. What we do is not optimal, but we optimize it to the extreme.

He is ok with Wyrm Wizard granting my wizard True Creation, giving me free Shadow Illusion True Creation for infinite free shadow iron for crafting and selling, but he rules that 1 fabricate = 1 masterwork dagger, saying RAW doesn't allow the sheets of masterwork daggers for that trick we found online. He is OK with true mind switch. Hell he is OK with epic spells too. He just wants us to work for it, either by playing a Psion or using Wish and paying the XP cost for the item, etc.

He said No to the Magic Jar trick not because it was OP or anything, but because he thought we were really reaching trying to make it work. He does not like bending the rules. He views bending the rules as a crybaby scrub move, both for him and us. He allows 0 homebrew and 0 house rules.

[Jack_Simth]

He doesn't like it when us, the PCs, get "lucky". He wants us to do everything ourselves. He views finding an NPC that so happens to have everything you wanted as lucky. You can make a really OP PC, but not a leadership cohort, hireling, mercenary, etc. because you are getting lucky finding such capable help.

That's why he doesn't sell high level items. You got lucky such a merchant with such stock exists.

He is a robinson crusoe type guy. He puts us in an environment devoid of resources. The cities have magic supplies in stock for crafting but that's as far as it goes. Any magic item we want we gotta make ourselves or kill a boss in the campaign who has it including bags of holding.

Does he use a completely homebrewed setting, or are the standard places available if they're in a printed book? E.g., could you Plane Shift to the Plane of Fire, then Greater Teleport to the City of Brass if you needed to do so? Because there's this city called Sigil on DMG page 167, and the next-to-last paragraph of it's description may be of use to you. Great place to go hunting up a cohort.

[RoboEmperor]

Does he use a completely homebrewed setting, or are the standard places available if they're in a printed book? E.g., could you Plane Shift to the Plane of Fire, then Greater Teleport to the City of Brass if you needed to do so? Because there's this city called Sigil on DMG page 167, and the next-to-last paragraph of it's description may be of use to you. Great place to go hunting up a cohort.

All standard places are available but your cohorts are gonna be single classed non-prestige NPCs. Only you are exceptional. All NPCs are average, except for the BBEG ofc. Oh and all the markets are bare of any magical items. He really wants us to use the crafting system. Psion is technically single classed non prestige but hes gonna say no. At best he'll allow like a fighter cohort or a ranger cohort, some mundane NPC.

Anyways I hate leadership so I'm not gonna use that feat. I like expendable minions exclusively. Leadership cohorts are not expendable, but planar binding slaves are, which is why up to this point i've been playing planar binding exclusive characters.

He allowed my "Use nonlethal spells and mother cyst to easily enslave Pit Fiends and Balors" plan because it was RAW legal, just so you guys have an idea of what level of optimization he allows. He also didn't invoke "friends of Pit Fiend will kill you" because by RAW, devils and demons don't help each other and punish the victim for being weak enough to be enslaved.

[Jack_Simth]

All standard places are available but your cohorts are gonna be single classed non-prestige NPCs. Only you are exceptional. All NPCs are average, except for the BBEG ofc. Oh and all the markets are bare of any magical items. He really wants us to use the crafting system. Psion is technically single classed non prestige but hes gonna say no. At best he'll allow like a fighter cohort or a ranger cohort, some mundane NPC.

Anyways I hate leadership so I'm not gonna use that feat. I like expendable minions exclusively. Leadership cohorts are not expendable, but planar binding slaves are, which is why up to this point i've been playing planar binding exclusive characters.

He allowed my "Use nonlethal spells and mother cyst to easily enslave Pit Fiends and Balors" plan because it was RAW legal, just so you guys have an idea of what level of optimization he allows. He also didn't invoke "friends of Pit Fiend will kill you" because by RAW, devils and demons don't help each other and punish the victim for being weak enough to be enslaved.
Well, then you've got a lesser Wish farm already running, which can solve the problem.

And if you don't mind waiting a few days, you don't need to recruit the cohort. Just commission the item. Do things right and it's failure-free.

[RoboEmperor]

Well, then you've got a lesser Wish farm already running, which can solve the problem.

And if you don't mind waiting a few days, you don't need to recruit the cohort. Just commission the item. Do things right and it's failure-free.

Hey that's a nice point. Pit Fiend's free wish is once a year, hardly an abuse. Also I could kinda use him like a merchant. Hmm....

Thanks for reminding me about his wish. Time to re-read deals with devils.

Anyways I want to use free wishes as an absolute last resort. This is literally the line where my DM's allowable optimization is at. He MIGHT allow this. I dunno.

[Jack_Simth]

Hey that's a nice point. Pit Fiend's free wish is once a year, hardly an abuse. Also I could kinda use him like a merchant. Hmm....

Thanks for reminding me about his wish. Time to re-read deals with devils.

Anyways I want to use free wishes as an absolute last resort. This is literally the line where my DM's allowable optimization is at. He MIGHT allow this. I dunno.

Think you can sell him on the following:
When it comes down to it, he's released when you do it, so you can only do it the once. The reason?
Mother Cyst is a feat that's tied to a physical issue: A chunk of undead flesh in your body.
You're leaving your body behind. Yes, technically, you still qualify for the feat, and feats are one of the things that go with you... but it is tied to a physical thing in your old body by the fluff of the feat. When you move into your construct, you lose that chunk of undead flesh... and all spells tied to it.

?

[RoboEmperor]

Think you can sell him on the following:
When it comes down to it, he's released when you do it, so you can only do it the once. The reason?
Mother Cyst is a feat that's tied to a physical issue: A chunk of undead flesh in your body.
You're leaving your body behind. Yes, technically, you still qualify for the feat, and feats are one of the things that go with you... but it is tied to a physical thing in your old body by the fluff of the feat. When you move into your construct, you lose that chunk of undead flesh... and all spells tied to it.

?

Yeah, this character won't go mother cyst. It will either be a voluntary deal or some other shenanigan. There's also gate but, like I said this is getting too cheesy for my tastes :(

[Jack_Simth]

Yeah, this character won't go mother cyst. It will either be a voluntary deal or some other shenanigan. There's also gate but, like I said this is getting too cheesy for my tastes :(
Oh, well, if a FREE wish is the only problem, simply pay the beast fair market value (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#spellcastingAndServices) as though you were hiring a full Wish. (Spell Level * Caster Level * 10 + XP cost * 5) in GP. For a Pit Fiend making a True Mind Switch Power Stone, that'd be:
9 (spell level) * 20 (Caster level) * 10 (base spell multiplier)
+ 5000 (Wish base XP cost) * 5 (base XP multiplier)
+ 10,000 (base XP cost of True Mind Switch) * 2 (doubled because of Wish crafting requirement) *5 (base XP multiplier)
+ 9 (Power level of True Mind Switch) * [Variable, at least 17 - HD of target body] (Manifester level of True Mind Switch) * 2 (doubled because of Wish crafting requirement) *5 (base XP multiplier)

Which means if your target body has 20 hit dice, that's 128,600 gp for the Wish in question.

[RoboEmperor]

Oh, well, if a FREE wish is the only problem, simply pay the beast fair market value (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#spellcastingAndServices) as though you were hiring a full Wish. (Spell Level * Caster Level * 10 + XP cost * 5) in GP. For a Pit Fiend making a True Mind Switch Power Stone, that'd be:
9 (spell level) * 20 (Caster level) * 10 (base spell multiplier)
+ 5000 (Wish base XP cost) * 5 (base XP multiplier)
+ 10,000 (base XP cost of True Mind Switch) * 2 (doubled because of Wish crafting requirement) *5 (base XP multiplier)
+ 9 (Power level of True Mind Switch) * [Variable, at least 17 - HD of target body] (Manifester level of True Mind Switch) * 2 (doubled because of Wish crafting requirement) *5 (base XP multiplier)

Which means if your target body has 20 hit dice, that's 128,600 gp for the Wish in question.

I wonder if he'll take a golem as payment XD.

But yeah, i think my DM will allow that, especially since it's more expensive than buying one from a real market. But then again it's a devil, he'll probably instead want something evil in return, like furthering a cult's cause or murdering innocents.

OH! There's Glabrezus with once a month wish. He's just as evil as a Pit Fiend, but I'm sure he's significantly less "long-term", as in my payment to him won't result in the end of all life in a country, but instead result in the end of all life in a village.

Yeah my DM and I will have to read up on fiendish codex I and II again.

I think a pit fiend or glabrezu might be interested in a golem equivalent for payment though, it's a powerful magic immune minion they don't normally have access to.

[Jack_Simth]

I wonder if he'll take a golem as payment XD.

But yeah, i think my DM will allow that, especially since it's more expensive than buying one from a real market. But then again it's a devil, he'll probably instead want something evil in return, like furthering a cult's cause or murdering innocents.

OH! There's Glabrezus with once a month wish. He's just as evil as a Pit Fiend, but I'm sure he's significantly less "long-term", as in my payment to him won't result in the end of all life in a country, but instead result in the end of all life in a village.

Yeah my DM and I will have to read up on fiendish codex I and II again.

I think a pit fiend or glabrezu might be interested in a golem equivalent for payment though, it's a powerful magic immune minion they don't normally have access to.There's a fundamental problem with selling most constructs: The Creator can always resume control. That's... probably the biggest reason that the Golem Manuals exist. You'll need to give your target more than fair market value, so something like a Drakestone or Ironwyrm golem (the Ironwyrm is a particularly good choice to give to the pit fiend, because for the pit fiend it's REALLY easy to repair thanks to the at-will fireball).

[Segev]

So his reason for not letting you control your own body after it'd been turned into a golem was that there is an elemental spirit in it, right? You could try the last trick I posted, then, instead, and make yourself into an intelligent magic item of magic jar. You can possess anything you like that isn't immune to Necormancy or magic. Including a golem you built which you order to fail the save. Make a compartment inside the golem for the amulet-you so that it can't be independently targeted without somebody opening up the compartment to get to it. (You need it accessible enough that you can have it removed by a new possessed body should something happen to the golem, though.)

[RoboEmperor]

Trick number 4: Karla's Crown
You're now going to create an item that continuously uses magic jar. The base cost of this is 13*7*2000 = 182,000 gp. Sub-epic in gp cost, thankfully. Of course, since you're crafting it, it's only going to cost you 91,000 gp in materials. Oh, and don't forget the 100 gp for the material focus. You'll be working a gem into this amulet, too. You likely want to give this intelligent item both the power to speak and communicate telepathically; it will make your life easier when you're inside it.

When the project is complete, you will end the spell as part of the final step of imbuing the intelligence (yourself) into the magic item that you've made out of your own body. Because you're now a magic item that continuously casts magic jar, you are, in essence, permanently in the vessel that spell creates. Any valid targets that come into range can now be possessed, assuming they fail their saves.

Magic Jar is a level 5 spell, so shouldn't the cost be 5*11*2000+100= 110,100gp? Which should be 55,050gp + 4404xp.

So if I were to understand this:
1. Create a custom wondrous item of continuous magic jar.
2. Embed your new wondrous item into a golem you made.
3. Use your new wondrous item to possess the golem permanently.

So you talk about becoming a magic item so that if the magic jar is dispelled, you return to your body as a sentient entity capable of using magic jar at will, so could you point me to the relevant RAW rules for that? Because I fear it might be the same argument as the golem soul thingy we had in the other thread. We have to beat the RAW rule saying you are "unconscious while in your petrified body."


There's a fundamental problem with selling most constructs: The Creator can always resume control. That's... probably the biggest reason that the Golem Manuals exist. You'll need to give your target more than fair market value, so something like a Drakestone or Ironwyrm golem (the Ironwyrm is a particularly good choice to give to the pit fiend, because for the pit fiend it's REALLY easy to repair thanks to the at-will fireball).

Unless he's planning on using the construct to kill me, I don't see a problem. If I rip him off and jack the construct away from him later as part of some scam, i'm sure I'll get what's coming to me in the form of interplanar vengeance, especially since he's permitted to do whatever he wants against people who break deals with devils.

[Segev]

Magic Jar is a level 5 spell, so shouldn't the cost be 5*11*2000+100= 110,100gp? Which should be 55,050gp + 4404xp.Probably! I was thinking it was a 7th level spell, for some reason.


So if I were to understand this:
1. Create a custom wondrous item of continuous magic jar.
2. Embed your new wondrous item into a golem you made.
3. Use your new wondrous item to possess the golem permanently.Almost. The key here is that you're going to incorporate your own body into the magic item, so that if dispelled, you return to said item.


So you talk about becoming a magic item so that if the magic jar is dispelled, you return to your body as a sentient entity capable of using magic jar at will, so could you point me to the relevant RAW rules for that? Because I fear it might be the same argument as the golem soul thingy we had in the other thread. We have to beat the RAW rule saying you are "unconscious while in your petrified body."The rules about how you get the intelligence into an intelligent item are sufficiently vague that I would argue for "the unconscious mind inside this petrified body is awakened by this magical procedure."

So you're unconscious while in your petrified, shrunken body, except the magic of being an intelligent item wakes you up AS that intelligence. In any intelligent item crafting, you have to provide an intelligence. Where you get it from is entirely unspecified. Why not have the source be your own mind, if it's already present inside the magic item? Instead of inventing a new intellect, you're just waking up the one that's already there.

[RoboEmperor]

In any intelligent item crafting, you have to provide an intelligence. Where you get it from is entirely unspecified. Why not have the source be your own mind, if it's already present inside the magic item? Instead of inventing a new intellect, you're just waking up the one that's already there.

Yeah this part, can you point me to the relevant rules? All I'm finding on the d20srd is:


To create an intelligent item, a character must have a caster level of 15th or higher. Time and creation cost are based on the normal item creation rules, with the market price values on Table: Item Intelligence, Wisdom, Charisma, and Capabilities treated as additions to time, gp cost, and XP cost. The item’s alignment is the same as its creator’s. Determine other features randomly, following the guidelines in the relevant section.

Nothing about providing an intelligence. It seems you just create intelligence out of nothing.

[Jack_Simth]

Magic Jar is a level 5 spell, so shouldn't the cost be 5*11*2000+100= 110,100gp? Which should be 55,050gp + 4404xp.
No, for two reasons:
1) A 5th level spell is going to by default be at caster level 9, rather than 11. So that'd be 90,100 gp market (for a custom item such as this, though, it may be a good idea to use a higher CL anyway).
2) The focus cost doesn't get cut in half, but also doesn't add to the XP cost. So using that caster level of 11, it'd be 55,100 gp and 4,400 xp to craft.

Unless he's planning on using the construct to kill me, I don't see a problem. If I rip him off and jack the construct away from him later as part of some scam, i'm sure I'll get what's coming to me in the form of interplanar vengeance, especially since he's permitted to do whatever he wants against people who break deals with devils.He might not, however, be aware that you think that way. Additionally, circumstances change. Mortals are mercurial (compared to [Lawful] Outsiders, anyway), so you might want to snag that resource back at a later date. When it's that easy for you to do... he's just beating you to the punch. Also, of course, there's the issue that you might be in trouble if he lends it to a minion, who tries to use it against you. If you take it back as part of defending yourself, you've just broken your deal.

Much safer to simply pay him in coinage or equivalent.

[Segev]

Yeah this part, can you point me to the relevant rules? All I'm finding on the d20srd is:



Nothing about providing an intelligence. It seems you just create intelligence out of nothing.

It says you create an intelligent item. It doesn't say WHERE the intelligence comes from. "It is made out of nothing" is as much an interpretation as "I make this intelligent item by putting my dying kid brother's mind into it." The magic item creation rules are deliberately designed to encompass a lot of different fluff explanations; they only tell you the cost of the end result in game mechanical terms. It's so that you can tell a number of different stories with it.

[RoboEmperor]

The magic item creation rules are deliberately designed to encompass a lot of different fluff explanations; they only tell you the cost of the end result in game mechanical terms. It's so that you can tell a number of different stories with it.

Do you have a RAW for this? XD, like in the DMG or PHB saying specifically you can be this creative with the origins of the intelligence. If you do, this will truly solve practically most if not all of my current problems.



Much safer to simply pay him in coinage or equivalent.

It is but, you know, lot of d&d RAW lore says fiends demand non coinage payments, like livestock or an errand or whatnot. A pit fiend might be interested in a golem master's products because constructs are something you can't buy anywhere and he just might so happen to need a magic immune juggernaut for his cultist's goals or whatnot. You could say the same for coin, but I just don't see a Pit Fiend short of coin, and I think Glabrezus have 0 interest in coin, because he's the one giving coin to corrupt his victims.

[Segev]

Do you have a RAW for this? XD, like in the DMG or PHB saying specifically you can be this creative with the origins of the intelligence. If you do, this will truly solve practically most if not all of my current problems.

I couldn't find the "this is a guideline for custom items" rule I was hoping to quote, but it does say on p. 268 of the DMG that intelligent items are "magically imbued with sentience." Using a petrified shrunken wizard as part of the creation process sounds like a magical way to imbue it with sentience, to me.

Now, if that's not good enough, you can do this, instead: Make it an independently intelligent item with a special purpose of helping you find a body to inhabit. Now its own sentience is separate from yours, but it, being an intelligent item, can activate its magic jar power on your behalf, thus "waking up" your life force as it puts it in the gem that's part of its construction. From which you, as the beneficiary of the spell effect, can hop into others' bodies.

[RoboEmperor]

Now, if that's not good enough, you can do this, instead: Make it an independently intelligent item with a special purpose of helping you find a body to inhabit. Now its own sentience is separate from yours, but it, being an intelligent item, can activate its magic jar power on your behalf, thus "waking up" your life force as it puts it in the gem that's part of its construction. From which you, as the beneficiary of the spell effect, can hop into others' bodies.

This sounds much, much better. There is no rule saying you can't use magic jar on an unconscious petrified body. There are no rules saying petrification makes you immune to mind-affecting or necromancy spells.

So now the iffy part here is that the item used the spell for you. I don't think it can use the magic jar power for its owner. It can use its power for itself but not for another creature. At best I think it can magic jar itself, putting its consciousness into the focus, and then take over your body, becoming unconscious while you wake-up inside the focus.

I think I came up with a better way.


"Continually functioning items are practically always items that one wears. A few must simply be in the character’s possession (on his person)."

Make the magic item magic jar whoever touches it automatically. So the moment you leave the anti-magic field, the magic item activates and since it is embedded on your statue body, you are touching it therefore you immediately get sucked into the wondrous item.

I can see this working. This wondrous item is just a gem, and the moment you touch it, your soul is sucked inside it, and you embed the gem inside your statue body so it's not touching the golem body.

You order your golem to leave the antimagic field and lower its spell resistance to 0, meaning whenever you are unconscious the golem will make itself vulnerable to your magic jar.

Alrighty! Unless someone sees a problem with this, this will be my construct-version of the lich's phylactery. Thank god for custom magic rules, they make at-will gate and wish items a reality. Hey i should do that. Craft a bunch of at-will items and embed them into the golem body.

[Segev]

This sounds much, much better. There is no rule saying you can't use magic jar on an unconscious petrified body. There are no rules saying petrification makes you immune to mind-affecting or necromancy spells.

So now the iffy part here is that the item used the spell for you. I don't think it can use the magic jar power for its owner. It can use its power for itself but not for another creature. At best I think it can magic jar itself, putting its consciousness into the focus, and then take over your body, becoming unconscious while you wake-up inside the focus.Actually, it explicitly can: (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/intelligentItems.htm)


Unlike most magic items, intelligent items can activate their own powers without waiting for a command word from their owner. Intelligent items act during their owner’s turn in the initiative order. [/url]
So, if a command-word activated item of magic jar could operate on its master's soul, so, too, can an intelligent item of magic jar do so without its master's command.

[QUOTE=someonenoone11;21674031]I think I came up with a better way. Ah! Great!


Make the magic item magic jar whoever touches it automatically. So the moment you leave the anti-magic field, the magic item activates and since it is embedded on your statue body, you are touching it therefore you immediately get sucked into the wondrous item.

I can see this working. This wondrous item is just a gem, and the moment you touch it, your soul is sucked inside it, and you embed the gem inside your statue body so it's not touching the golem body.Hm. You'd have to use the "use-activated" version, which, as you're doing "continuous" already, you've paid for, but it could work.


You order your golem to leave the antimagic field and lower its spell resistance to 0, meaning whenever you are unconscious the golem will make itself vulnerable to your magic jar.

Alrighty! Unless someone sees a problem with this, this will be my construct-version of the lich's phylactery. Thank god for custom magic rules, they make at-will gate and wish items a reality. Hey i should do that. Craft a bunch of at-will items and embed them into the golem body.The one problem I have with it is that your golem can't necessarily tell it's in an AMF, nor could you order it while you're unconscious. Probably still want the intelligent item to give those orders for you. If you tell the golem to obey the item, and give the item the ability to speak, you should be fine.

[RoboEmperor]

Actually, it explicitly can: (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/intelligentItems.htm)

So, if a command-word activated item of magic jar could operate on its master's soul, so, too, can an intelligent item of magic jar do so without its master's command.

I get what you're saying. I wish there was a clear RAW example >.<.

I guess this is where we draw the line: polymorph. Lets say an intelligent item polymorphs its owner on command... oh wow I just solved my own problem XD.

Yeah ok, we just gotta specifically say that this wondrous item magic jars it's owner exclusively, and the item can't magic jar itself to possess someone else.

Ok I think I can make this method work with my DM.



Hm. You'd have to use the "use-activated" version, which, as you're doing "continuous" already, you've paid for, but it could work.

I don't think we're on the same page here. Why do I have to use the "use-activated" version? I'm talking about a non-intelligent wondrous item that continuously magic jars anything that touches it. When it's not touching anyone it's like a blackhole for the soul until something fills it.



The one problem I have with it is that your golem can't necessarily tell it's in an AMF, nor could you order it while you're unconscious. Probably still want the intelligent item to give those orders for you. If you tell the golem to obey the item, and give the item the ability to speak, you should be fine.

Golems follow the last order they received. If their last order is what I said + some pathfinding logic, he will do that until the end of time, even while trapped inside my magic jar. So kinda like a gear that never stops turning, and when its connect to the body it moves the body, when it's not it just spins over nothing.

[Segev]

I get what you're saying. I wish there was a clear RAW example >.<.

I guess this is where we draw the line: polymorph. Lets say an intelligent item polymorphs its owner on command... oh wow I just solved my own problem XD.

Yeah ok, we just gotta specifically say that this wondrous item magic jars it's owner exclusively, and the item can't magic jar itself to possess someone else.

Ok I think I can make this method work with my DM.Yeah, polymorph is a good example. It doesn't even need to be "on command." And if the intelligent item ALSO uses its ability to have itself possess others, what harm? Just make sure it is loyal to you so it doesn't try any backstabbing.


I don't think we're on the same page here. Why do I have to use the "use-activated" version? I'm talking about a non-intelligent wondrous item that continuously magic jars anything that touches it. When it's not touching anyone it's like a blackhole for the soul until something fills it."Command activation" requires something that takes a standard action to perform. It can't be as simple as "touches" it. But you're already paying for use-activated in the cost of continuous use, so it's not a big deal.


Golems follow the last order they received. If their last order is what I said + some pathfinding logic, he will do that until the end of time, even while trapped inside my magic jar. So kinda like a gear that never stops turning, and when its connect to the body it moves the body, when it's not it just spins over nothing.Yeah,but if you tell it "walk out of any anti-magic field in which you find yourself," you presume that it knows an AMF when it's in one.

Although... ... ... anything inside the golem has no line of effect to things outside of it. If the item is entirely inside the golem - but not part of it - the AMF never affects the item. Downside: the only thing to which the item has line of effect in this case is the golem, so you couldn't possess anything else. Solvable by having the compartment openable, so that the item can be removed to establish beneficial lines of effect.

[Jack_Simth]

Although... ... ... anything inside the golem has no line of effect to things outside of it. If the item is entirely inside the golem - but not part of it - the AMF never affects the item. Downside: the only thing to which the item has line of effect in this case is the golem, so you couldn't possess anything else. Solvable by having the compartment openable, so that the item can be removed to establish beneficial lines of effect.There's an easy way around the golem not being able to ID an AMF - add in some magic item or another that has an obvious and continuous effect. A Simple +1 dagger set to shed light will do. When it goes out, run away.

[RoboEmperor]

Yeah, polymorph
"Command activation" requires something that takes a standard action to perform. It can't be as simple as "touches" it. But you're already paying for use-activated in the cost of continuous use, so it's not a big deal.

It says some continuous items need only to be in possession to be activated. I'm invoking that. You possess this item, it's gonna suck your soul out into it. No command activation, no use activation, it is continuous. You touch it, you accidentally fall on top of it, or it falls off somewhere and lands on top of you it's gonna magic jar you. Magic jarring anything it touches is a continuous effect. It's an involuntary magic item.

As for the golem, tell it to keep moving forward, and if it hits a wall change direction by turning right and keep going forward. Even if he's inside a maze covered in AMF he should find his way out most of the time. Doesn't matter whether he knows hes in an AMF or not. When hes control hes gonna keep on moving until hes not.

[Segev]

It says some continuous items need only to be in possession to be activated. I'm invoking that. You possess this item, it's gonna suck your soul out into it. No command activation, no use activation, it is continuous. You touch it, you accidentally fall on top of it, or it falls off somewhere and lands on top of you it's gonna magic jar you. Magic jarring anything it touches is a continuous effect. It's an involuntary magic item.

As for the golem, tell it to keep moving forward, and if it hits a wall change direction by turning right and keep going forward. Even if he's inside a maze covered in AMF he should find his way out most of the time. Doesn't matter whether he knows hes in an AMF or not. When hes control hes gonna keep on moving until hes not.

Sure. And most importantly, your item, if inside the golem, is NOT in the AMF thanks to no line of effect. So you're at least still in its jar, even if you can't take over the golem due to it being in the AMF. If you make the item itself intelligent, you could even possess the item, which could let you communicate directly with the golem.