Dragonfire Adept + PyroHidra

[khaldorgas]

I'm creating a gestalt character at level 20. I decided to do an entire side of Dragonfire Adept, and I'm looking for options to improve that side.

At this level, Dragonfire Adept has a 9d6 Weapon Breath.

If on the other side, I use druid, and turn myself into a Pyro / Cyro Hydra, with 12 heads, which by rule, has a 3d6 breath weapon, could I use the Dragonfire Adept's breath weapon?

That would mean 9d6x12 heads = 108d6, out other possible things to be done to increase the damage.


Is my interpretation correct?

[JNAProductions]

No, they do not stack that way, I believe.

[Inevitability]

No, they do not stack that way, I believe.

Thing is; this isn't a question of stuff stacking, it's a question of substituting one breath weapon for another.

[JNAProductions]

Except DFA has no rules that lets you swap your breath attacks. Talk to your DM, of course, but RAW (and most probably RAI) I don't think it works.

[Kayblis]

I believe the biggest issue is where the abilities come from. As the hydra entry doesn't state whether the breath weapon is Ex, Su or Sp, we can go both ways. Breath weapons are usually Supernatural, but the DMG/MM states that, when something isn't listed that way, it's usually Extraordinary. The Dragonfire Adept breath is Supernatural, and states you can use it at will as a standard action. Thy hydra breath can be argued to be either, and when used, allows breath from all heads.

My interpretation is you keep both: You can make only one breath attack with 9d6 damage, AND you can make (heads)*breath attacks for 3d6 damage each. Both take a standard action and have their own cooldowns. Effectively this gives you a secondary breath attack when your stronger Hydra breaths are on cooldown. That's how not-exactly-the-same abilities stack.

[Naez]

You only get 9d6. the only reason pyro and cryohydras have multiple is because it specifically states their racial breath weapon is per head. Gaining a breath weapon from a different source does not extend the same effect.

[Flickerdart]

You have two abilities.

One ability says: You can use an attack where all your heads breathe fire, and you deal 3d6 damage per head.
The other ability says: You can use an attack where you breathe fire for 9d6 damage.

They do not interact in any way, because the rules don't say that they do. It's similar to how you can't cast a fireball that's also a lightning bolt even if you have both spells prepared, or attack with a sword that's also a nunchuck just because you have both of these weapons. You must use specific rule constructs (arcane fusion or Two-Weapon Fighting) which outline specifically what happens. There is no such construct for breath weapons.

However, the Multiheaded Creature template in Savage Species makes specific reference to breath weapons. "Base creatures with breath weapons or gaze attacks, or who can swallow whole, gain the ability to use that power with each head simultaneously." So a multiheaded Dragonfire Adept could breathe once for each head using an unrelated breath weapon, but a hydra Dragonfire Adept could not.

[Inevitability]

I believe the biggest issue is where the abilities come from. As the hydra entry doesn't state whether the breath weapon is Ex, Su or Sp, we can go both ways. Breath weapons are usually Supernatural, but the DMG/MM states that, when something isn't listed that way, it's usually Extraordinary. The Dragonfire Adept breath is Supernatural, and states you can use it at will as a standard action. Thy hydra breath can be argued to be either, and when used, allows breath from all heads.

There's an argument to be made for it being a Natural ability too.

[Remuko]

You have two abilities.

One ability says: You can use an attack where all your heads breathe fire, and you deal 3d6 damage per head.
The other ability says: You can use an attack where you breathe fire for 9d6 damage.

They do not interact in any way, because the rules don't say that they do. It's similar to how you can't cast a fireball that's also a lightning bolt even if you have both spells prepared, or attack with a sword that's also a nunchuck just because you have both of these weapons. You must use specific rule constructs (arcane fusion or Two-Weapon Fighting) which outline specifically what happens. There is no such construct for breath weapons.

However, the Multiheaded Creature template in Savage Species makes specific reference to breath weapons. "Base creatures with breath weapons or gaze attacks, or who can swallow whole, gain the ability to use that power with each head simultaneously." So a multiheaded Dragonfire Adept could breathe once for each head using an unrelated breath weapon, but a hydra Dragonfire Adept could not.

So what about a DFA PyroHydra with multiheaded? It says "gain the ability to use that power with each head simultaneously" so if you have 12 heads and then get one more via multiheaded, you should be able to DFA breath with all 13.

[Flickerdart]

So what about a DFA PyroHydra with multiheaded? It says "gain the ability to use that power with each head simultaneously" so if you have 12 heads and then get one more via multiheaded, you should be able to DFA breath with all 13.
That seems kosher - the template explicitly calls out chimeras (already multi-headed) as valid base creatures.

[Segev]

That seems kosher - the template explicitly calls out chimeras (already multi-headed) as valid base creatures.

Which, incidentally, would instantly be able to breathe their dragon head's breath weapon from all heads, not just the dragon head, by adding one head to the mix.

[Uncle Pine]

Which, incidentally, would instantly be able to breathe their dragon head's breath weapon from all heads, not just the dragon head, by adding one head to the mix.

Crazy how magic do dat.