How to kill the Man of Tomorrow

[Kaelaroth]

I know this has actually happened once or twice in comics, but I hated all of them. Superman's Death should frankly be cool. So...

If you guys could create a super-villain who was both powerful and cool enough to destroy everyone's favourite Kryptonian (Superman (not Power Girl)), who would it be, what powers would they have and how would they eventually kill him?

Thanks!

[Nightwing]

He isn't are favorite Kryptonion! Zod is are favorite! Kneel! knell before Zod!

[sealemon]

Soon after his original Crisis reboot in the eighties, there was a villian named something along the lines of Dr. Kilgore who actually had a pretty good plan for killing Supes: He had a series of robots stage a runnign battle against him that kept the fight moving along the night side of the planet...the idea being of course to let him run out of solar energy. That was when the deus ex of "Superman's super enhanced energy reserves" was introduced, but otherwise the plan seemed really sound.

[Grod_The_Giant]

He isn't are favorite Kryptonion! Zod is are favorite! Kneel! knell before Zod!

for some reason, that saying always leads to me thinking of Zod standing in a street, yelling at a bloodied Superman "Son of Jor-El- Kneel before Zod!" when this random guy steps out and says "yeah, that's me. Neal Whatever, son of Jerell (the black guy version of the name). Oh, and Power Girl is our favorite Kryptonian.

Anyway, I think the reverse-Superman Zod (this guy http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/6/60/Generalzodrussian21.png/165px-Generalzodrussian21.png) would be a totally awesome and worth foe if he wasn't dead (although it could easily be explained as a hoax). He was kind of like...a DC Doctor Doom with Superman powers under a red sun.

[Raiser Blade]

lets see the list of peoples who can kill supes

shadowcat
Jean Grey(as pheonix)
Nightcrawler
Me with a gun that shoots bullets made of kryptonite

In DC im not sure of anyone

[ZeroNumerous]

Heres the problem: Killing him is fairly easy. Keeping him dead is not. A better question would be "How to Permanently Kill Supes?"

[Gundato]

No idea on a good way to kill him, but to keep him down just <SNIP>

[Grod_The_Giant]

No idea on a good way to kill him, but to keep him down just <SNIP>
Lol

Killing is simple. Lure him under powerful red sun lamps in a room made of solid titanium, reveal lots of kryptonite, lock the door, wait till he passes out and dies. then wait 'till his body's vulnerable enough, burn it, and bury the ashes in a lead coffin.

[Hushdawg]

I think if Darkseid were able to tap into the Marvel universe and steal the Infinity Gems, the Cosmic Cubes and the Heart of the Universe and add those along with his existing Mega Technology that he could construct a powerful Superman-killing robot that would completely decimate the Last Son of Krypton. Using the cosmic powers coupled with Magic energies would definitely shear off the very atoms of Superman and spread them across the cosmos.

I'd be interested to see how he could come back from that.

The numerous DC/Marvel crossovers over the last 30 years have made it evident that the two universes are definitely easily accessed between each other.

[kpenguin]

I believe in one of those DC/Marvel crossovers, the Infinity Gauntlet were shown to be powerless in the DC universe.

[Invisible Queen]

I vouch for Grant Morrison. He could kill Supes with magic. Probably something simple like shredding a comic with Superman in it. . . actually, any real person could do that. But Grant has the advantage of being a comics writer, who is also a comic character, and has been known to blur the line between the two in his work. And he's a practitioner of chaos magic.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I vouch for Grant Morrison. He could kill Supes with magic. Probably something simple like shredding a comic with Superman in it. . . actually, any real person could do that. But Grant has the advantage of being a comics writer, who is also a comic character, and has been known to blur the line between the two in his work. And he's a practitioner of chaos magic.

oh god, don't remind me. Now my brain hurts all over again...

[Tamburlaine]

In Green Lantern Rebirth, John Stewart (the best non-hal gl) takes out superman by power ring blasting him in the eyes-with pinpoint precision-so i think that any green lantern of sufficient skill and imagination to pull that off could easily kill supes. Not even taking into account a power rings ability to duplicate red sun and kryptonite radiation.:smallamused:

[Telonius]

How to kill Superman for good? Come up with a superhero/villain that will make more money for DC, but will only be able to do so if Superman is dead.

[Tokiko Mima]

I would have an average guy (no superpowers) with a grudge against Superman manipulate him into killing a lot of innocent people. Then I would somehow force Superman to kill my average guy in retaliation.

I'm operating under the assumption that this would destroy Superman permanently because he wouldn't be able to be "Superman" anymore. I think you would have to go after Superman in the ethics catagory, rather than physically beating him up because he always comes back up after being knocked down.

[fangthane]

Give Batman a powered suit made of metal from a red-sun world and some kryptonite and - crap, been done.
Give Luthor an orbital base and let him convince everyone he's reformed so he can lure Supes in and - oh never mind.
Let the parasite drain him dry and - oh yeah, that was the parasite's death (the first one, anyhow), never mind.

Trouble is, they've already done so many "death of Superman" comics I have to admit I'm a bit blase about the whole idea. I say let's give him a shellfish allergy and let Aquaman or Namor kick his ass. :smallbiggrin:

[talsine]

convince people to stop buying his comics, that would kill him pretty quickly

[Diakos]

Trouble is, they've already done so many "death of Superman" comics I have to admit I'm a bit biased about the whole idea. I say let's give him a shellfish allergy and let Aquaman or Namor kick his ass. :smallbiggrin:

LOL! Sigged for pure awesomeness

[Tirian]

I'm operating under the assumption that this would destroy Superman permanently because he wouldn't be able to be "Superman" anymore. I think you would have to go after Superman in the ethics catagory, rather than physically beating him up because he always comes back up after being knocked down.

Yeah, that's effectively how the Silver Age Superman was "defeated" in the two-shot "Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow," which gave closure to all of the zaniness that would be wiped out by the post-Crisis reboot. Except that it was an ultra-powered badguy and not an ordinary person (and I don't want to say who because it would be a spoiler....)

Anyway, Supes felt so bad about deliberately killing *anyone* that he went into the Gold Kryptonite room of the Fortress of Solitude which had a secret exit to the Arctic wasteland, where it was presumed that he froze to death, although his body was never found. (dun dun DUNNNN)

[Seraph]

anyone with the ability to create darkness.

keep supes in a lightless cloud until he runs out of power. proceed to butcher with rocket launcher.

[Fuum Bango]

Ok, off the top of my head, I don’t read comic all that much.
I wouldn't want Superman to be killed by one person; he's come to far power-wise and has a ton of allies to be killed by one villain.
So here is the “Superman Slayers”, not a great name I know. Its part of the point.
They are a group of young geniuses who want to kill Superman to prove a point, that they are the greatest and most powerful people around. If they kill Superman they’ll gain respect from every criminal in the world, the galaxy and beyond even! They become crime lords without having to do any other exertions, one masterstroke and they’re king of the world…
The plot would switch between The Justice League doing their usual heroics and the Slayers plotting, building…but never outright telling the reader what they’re doing. In some scenes when Superman is fighting crime you can spot one of the Slayers.

Here are the Slayers;
A mind-reader psychologist, he/she can find out Superman’s weaknesses with ease
A Gene-Splicing scientist, he can make increasingly difficult foes for Superman and be powerful him/herself
A robotics scientist that owns a large chain of factories across America
A Mathematician born with strange magical powers, he can predict a day into the future accurately
A handsome bachelor with a huge fortune left to him/her by his/her parents, the leader

They would kill Superman, but as they celebrate becoming “Crime Lords” they are killed or caught, by villains and heroes alike. They killed him, it was a great plan, but it was only one plan. Killing Superman doesn’t mean you can kill Lex Luther or Martain Manhunter or Batman the next day. So now they’re dead too, and the world is that little more dangerous, corrupt and despairing because of them. And perhaps Darkseid has been informed...
Good work Superman Slayers!

[SeptimusMagistos]

Getting Superman to kill someone wouldn't keep him down. He's been known to do much worse things and go on exactly as before. No, the only way to truly kill Superman would be to get an unbelievably powerful cosmic force to turn him evil, and then have a new, cooler Superman with an art upgrade finish him off for good.

[koz303]

I can kill superman forever. Plant some kryptonite near him then when he gets weak, take some kryptonite and put it inside his a$$ and then watching him die!!!!!!!!!!!! GOODBYE FOREVER SUPERMAN HA HA HA!!!!!!

[Griemont]

I can kill superman forever. Plant some kryptonite near him then when he gets weak, take some kryptonite and put it inside his a$$ and then watching him die!!!!!!!!!!!! GOODBYE FOREVER SUPERMAN HA HA HA!!!!!!

O_o I gather that we're not fans on Superman's ass on this forum?

Anyway, I personally think that Doomsday was the coolest character to have beaten superman, and is in fact one of my favorite villians. But the way he did it (They both punched each other to death, and coincidentally at the same time?) was pretty lame. :smallfrown:

[DiscipleofBob]

Question: Why would you want to kill Superman?

And I don't mean "Superman's such a good guy and a cool superhero, so why would you want to kill him?" I mean why would any of the supervillains who Superman regularly interferes with want to kill him.

I'm not sure if any of you have noticed, but when a popular character like Superman dies, they tend to come back... in spades. Look at what happened when Doomsday killed Superman? Four Superman knock-offs appeared in his stead, and THEN the original Superman comes back to save the day. Killing a superhero is NOT a prudent, efficient, or effective idea for a supervillain. It only ensures that the superhero will come back to life at the most inconvenient time for the villain, and usually stronger than before he died.

On the other hand, if you brainwash/trap the superhero in some insanely complex, slow-moving deathtrap, you can keep tabs on the superhero's wherabouts at all times, and have a much better chance of timing things right so that your evil takeover of the world goes as planned.

[kpenguin]

Question: Why would you want to kill Superman?

And I don't mean "Superman's such a good guy and a cool superhero, so why would you want to kill him?" I mean why would any of the supervillains who Superman regularly interferes with want to kill him.

I'm not sure if any of you have noticed, but when a popular character like Superman dies, they tend to come back... in spades. Look at what happened when Doomsday killed Superman? Four Superman knock-offs appeared in his stead, and THEN the original Superman comes back to save the day. Killing a superhero is NOT a prudent, efficient, or effective idea for a supervillain. It only ensures that the superhero will come back to life at the most inconvenient time for the villain, and usually stronger than before he died.

On the other hand, if you brainwash/trap the superhero in some insanely complex, slow-moving deathtrap, you can keep tabs on the superhero's wherabouts at all times, and have a much better chance of timing things right so that your evil takeover of the world goes as planned.

So, you mean that villians shouldn't kill superheroes because they might pull a Gandalf? Supervillians don't get to see the way their plot-point ruled world works.

[sealemon]

So, you mean that villians shouldn't kill superheroes because they might pull a Gandalf? Supervillians don't get to see the way their plot-point ruled world works.

Unless their name is Xycon...

[Dhavaer]

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e100/Dhavaer/killsuperman6sr6su.jpg

[DiscipleofBob]

So, you mean that villians shouldn't kill superheroes because they might pull a Gandalf? Supervillians don't get to see the way their plot-point ruled world works.

Well, that's their fault for not having learned their lesson. "Oh, let's kill Superman. He only came back EVERY time we somehow managed to beat him, but I'm sure this time will be different."

[Belial_the_Leveler]

Use Balefire. Not even the Great Lord of the Dark can bring ppl back if they're killed by Balefire-and he's a divinity of Death.

[Grod_The_Giant]

write an Elseworlds story that will only work if you have Superman killed. Congratulations, you're free to kill him in any way.

And it's important to remember that Kryptonite isn't an instant-win. PROLONGED exposure will work, but in the short-term, it just causes pain. Superman can focus past pain. Taking possession of innocent civilians might work well, though...he has to hold back to keep from killing them.

Oh yeah! Gog killed Superman. Many times. The Kingdom Come version, no less. The MAINSTREAM Gog killed Superman as well (he kept tormenting him, but he could have easily done it), but got his as whupped by an intelligent and avenging Doomsday. Go figure :tongue:

[T.Titan]

Heres the problem: Killing him is fairly easy. Keeping him dead is not. A better question would be "How to Permanently Kill Supes?"

Stop buying DC..... :biggrin:

[Somebloke]

I think if Darkseid were able to tap into the Marvel universe and steal the Infinity Gems, the Cosmic Cubes and the Heart of the Universe and add those along with his existing Mega Technology that he could construct a powerful Superman-killing robot that would completely decimate the Last Son of Krypton. Using the cosmic powers coupled with Magic energies would definitely shear off the very atoms of Superman and spread them across the cosmos.

I'd be interested to see how he could come back from that.

The numerous DC/Marvel crossovers over the last 30 years have made it evident that the two universes are definitely easily accessed between each other.
And then he would have to deal with Squirrel Girl.

And he would be in real trouble.

[Closet_Skeleton]

I vouch for Grant Morrison. He could kill Supes with magic. Probably something simple like shredding a comic with Superman in it. . . actually, any real person could do that. But Grant has the advantage of being a comics writer, who is also a comic character, and has been known to blur the line between the two in his work. And he's a practitioner of chaos magic.

So he's the ultimate Mary Sue?

[Grod_The_Giant]

ok. The one hero who can be regularly relied on the beat Superman-

Captain Marvel. I have seen plenty of examples of him taking Superman. In the JLA war with the fifth dimension, in Kingdom Come, shortly before Day of Vengeance (when Superman was possessed by Eclipso), and probably more times that I haven't seen. Equal physical attributes, and Captain Marvel can call down the lightning bolt, dodge and let it hit Superman.

[GoC]

ok. The one hero who can be regularly relied on the beat Superman-

Captain Marvel. I have seen plenty of examples of him taking Superman. In the JLA war with the fifth dimension, in Kingdom Come, shortly before Day of Vengeance (when Superman was possessed by Eclipso), and probably more times that I haven't seen. Equal physical attributes, and Captain Marvel can call down the lightning bolt, dodge and let it hit Superman.

They haven't got equal attributes.
Superman can run at almost light speeds while Marvel can go at about mach 4.

That alone is enough for Sups to win. He can dodge the lightning easily while There's no way Marvel can dodge something moving at 0.5c.

[Finn Solomon]

I'd have to say Captain Marvel, or J'onn J'onzz or even Wonder-Woman when severely pissed off.

[Logos7]

you need to convince superman that lois lane is in no way interested in him, and then that in order to (insert some remarkable good deed like going into the past to save krypton and reform Zod before he ever became such an ass, or save the world and multiverse, and proove that their is a caring personal omni god that miraculusly lines up with superman's ethics and was worshipped on Krypton too, but only by a line of repressed scientist like Jor El) He must kill himself (going on a spiritual journey) Then bury the sucker in a krptonite coffin and i think we're done

Logos

[Whoracle]

anyone with the ability to create darkness.

keep supes in a lightless cloud until he runs out of power. proceed to butcher with rocket launcher.

So, basically, any duo of AD&D Cleric ("Hold Person") and midlevel Drow sorceress ("Globe of Darkness"), along with either a) a death trap (Big rock to crush him when he's down) or b) a ballista aimed at said Globe of Darkness.

Interesting. I like it. Think of the headlines :smallbiggrin:

Edit: And we all know how stuffed with Drow the Underdark is, and it doesn't take that long to roll up some clerics, so we could try this over and over again if need be...

[Grod_The_Giant]

They haven't got equal attributes.
Superman can run at almost light speeds while Marvel can go at about mach 4.

That alone is enough for Sups to win. He can dodge the lightning easily while There's no way Marvel can dodge something moving at 0.5c.

yes they do. And Marvel can easily dodge the lightning bolt. He does it repeatedly in Kingdom Come. And even if he can't, he can call it again the next second, and Superman won't hurt an 11-year-old boy.

Any powerful magic type like Marvel or Alan Scott could take Supes.

[DiscipleofBob]

I like how the JLU animated series depicted a fight between Superman and Shazam: where they were on fairly equal footing and were demolishing an entire city until Shazam managed to get ahold of Superman and kept calling down the lightning to strike Superman. Supes was getting pretty hurt until he managed to reverse the hold and turn Shazam back into an 11-year old boy. That's the thing with Superman VS Shazam. Superman could take a few of the lightning bolts should they hit him, but if Shazam gets hit once by the lightning bolt, he turns back into a powerless 11-year old boy who Superman doesn't even have to hurt to subdue.

No one in the DC universe comes to mind who'd be able to consistently take down Superman. Even gods like Darkseid get beaten in the end somehow.

We know that Superman has always shown a vulnerability to magic. So you just need someone like Dr. Fate or Zatanna, only with the physical attributes to be able to at least hold their own against Superman. Any of the gods (new, greek, or otherwise) that has a strong enough magical repertoire should be able to get the job done.

[kpenguin]

Shazam? The wizard? Supes never fought him.

[DiscipleofBob]

Shazam? The wizard? Supes never fought him.

My bad. I'm used to referring to Captain Marvel as Shazam. Easier to type and less confusion in my head over the other Captain Marvels.

[kpenguin]

You mean Captain Mar-Vell? I can't think of any other Captain Marvels.

[sealemon]

From what I recall, Supes vs Captain Marvel has been fairly even over the years. for example, the FIRST time Eclipso got into the action (Right after his reboot), he possesed Superman and kicked the SNOT out of Marvel.

The two seem very evenly matched, with Superman having a wider range of powers verses Marvel's magic enhancements. It can go either way between the two of them, and has.


So, basically, any duo of AD&D Cleric ("Hold Person") and midlevel Drow sorceress ("Globe of Darkness"), along with either a) a death trap (Big rock to crush him when he's down) or b) a ballista aimed at said Globe of Darkness.

Yup, Magic is not kind to Big Blue. Xycon would pwn Supes.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Xycon would pwn Supes.

Unless Superman KNEW he was a lich. Then he could blast through him at mach 5.

[sealemon]

True. Which begs the question: Is paralyzing touch faster than a speeding bullet? Cause Big Blue is. :smallcool:

Of course, if Supes knew he was a lich, he'd be much better off just vaporizing him with the ole heat vision.

[Grod_The_Giant]

True. Which begs the question: Is paralyzing touch faster than a speeding bullet?

not unless it comes from a 20th level monk (who can break 50 mph with the Run feat) :P

[TheMeanDM]

I can think of a couple people that could probably kill him dead, permantly, with enough power (and motivation):

Dr. Strange
Dr. Fate
Captain Marvel

See a theme here?

Supes is "vlunerable" to magic. It kicks his arse.

Specifically, I'm thinking back on the Kingdom Come series.

Captain Marvel uses his magical lightning to decimate Superman, blasting him into submission. A few more blasts, I suspect he would have been dead.

I think, given the right kind of magical manipulation/power, Superman could be destroyed...permanantly.

[Viscount Einstrauss]

You don't have to have super powers or magic or good technology to kill Superman. You can just be very smart about it. For example, Lex Luthor's final plan in Red Son- saying something to him that makes him want to kill himself. Superman can get kind of broody sometimes. Manipulate his feelings enough and he'll do the job for you.

[DiscipleofBob]

I can think of a couple people that could probably kill him dead, permantly, with enough power (and motivation):

Dr. Strange
Dr. Fate
Captain Marvel



Captain Marvel I can see based on the discussions above. Dr. Fate and Dr. Strange however, are a different story. Sure, they may be all kinds of magically powerful, but it takes more than just spells to beat Superman. Neither have the physical fortitude to even last long enough against Superman to use said spells in combat.

[fangthane]

Heh... I can't remember which comic it was, and in fact I think it was an Action Comics from way back in Silver which pitted Supes against some complete weenie, in a world of magic - but the quote from Superman in that comic has stuck with me for ages...

"When it comes to magic, I'm about as powerful as Don Knotts."

So I'd agree that just about anyone should be able to lay a magical smackdown on Superman. Anyone with serious magical power that is. Myxlptlk almost did it once (turning Supes into some kind of Kryptonian reptile which, for some reason despite its also being a red-sun creature began to lose him his super-powers) just for laughs and without even intending to do it.

[sealemon]

you can expand the magic list to include anyone with a magic weapon:

Thor (Duh)
Kattana
Wonder Woman (Has access to all sorts of magic swords and axes and whatnot)
Roy Greenhilt


The trick, of course, is to get past his superspeed. Luckily, he often forgets he has it.

[kpenguin]

I don't think magic weapons will cut it, though. I think those handling with actual magic, rather than just using enchanted weaponry, are Superman's bane.

[Maerok]

Basic Chemistry:
Gold Kryptonite + Bullet in the Head --> Dead Superman + Heat.

[Tirian]

I don't think magic weapons will cut it, though. I think those handling with actual magic, rather than just using enchanted weaponry, are Superman's bane.

Nah, every time Wonder Woman pulls out a magic sword, they make a point of saying that it would hurt Superman.

[TheMeanDM]

To drive the magical weapon point home (no pun intended)...

In Kingdom Come, Superman is talking to Wonder Woman before a big confrontation...and he cuts himself on her blade while he's fingering it.

[Chaos Perfected]

Yeah, Superman isn't weak to magic. He's just no better at defending himself against it then a totally normal person. Which is why he'd get a magical smack down.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Dr. Strange
Dr. Fate
Captain Marvel

Mordru. Mordru will kick his ass. Have you seen him in JSA? First fight: teleported Flash and Wonder Women to the other side of Fate's tower (which extends "forever and a day"), turned Alan Scott to wood, Atom Smasher to a poster, Black Canary and Hawkgirl into Birds, turned Starman's staff into a snake, shredded the android Hourman...
Second fight (that I saw, anyway): Cut JJ Thunder's throat, ripped the Starheart RIGHT OUT OF ALAN'S CHEST, turned Sand into a monster that beat up Wildcat and Hourman, nearly nuked Power Girl, and damn near destroyed the world.
He's got power out the wazoo, awesomeness to match, and he's a super-villain. Bye-bye Superman.

But yeah, Wonder Woman could take Superman with a magic weapon no sweat. Heck, she has a decent chance of winning in unarmed combat!

[Tiki Snakes]

Captain Marvel I can see based on the discussions above. Dr. Fate and Dr. Strange however, are a different story. Sure, they may be all kinds of magically powerful, but it takes more than just spells to beat Superman. Neither have the physical fortitude to even last long enough against Superman to use said spells in combat.

I don't know Dr. Fate from Adam, but Dr. Strange? Nah, He'd have no problems surviving long enough.

Hell, most times I've come across him, in various cross-overs, he's not even physically left his house, to join the action.

I'm reasonably sure that Superman is not strong enough to knock out an Astral Projection in one punch. :)

[Scott Haley]

Death of the Endless (from Sandman comics): "Sorry Clark, it's time for you to go."

Are the people of the DC Earth unaware that Superman frequently fights off villains who want to destroy the world, or kill off or enslave all mankind? The super bad guys ought to kill Lex Luthor now, unless they want their own species to go extinct.

--Scott

[GoC]

yes they do. And Marvel can easily dodge the lightning bolt. He does it repeatedly in Kingdom Come. And even if he can't, he can call it again the next second, and Superman won't hurt an 11-year-old boy.

Any powerful magic type like Marvel or Alan Scott could take Supes.

You misunderstood me.
I meant that Marvel can't dodge one of Sup's 0.5c punches.

In order to beat Superman you need one of the following:

1) Flash/Superman level superspeed (only a handfull in either Marvel or DC and they lack his durability&strength)
2) Garunteed first-strike (Supersenses+superspeed really wreck this but if Dr. Strange really can attack things while sitting in his extra-dimensional home then I'd agree that this cosmic-level power can beat Superman:smallbiggrin: )
3) Able to withstand his attacks and hurt him back (quite a few magic themed people can hurt him but few are able to even react in order to do so)


The trick, of course, is to get past his superspeed. Luckily, he often forgets he has it.
ROTFLMAO!

So true. Without that almost all the people mentioned here can beat him.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Captain Marvel still fulfills all your criteria.


1) Flash/Superman level superspeed (only a handfull in either Marvel or DC and they lack his durability&strength)
Check. Speed of Mercury= fast enough to match Superman.

2) Garunteed first-strike (Supersenses+superspeed really wreck this but if Dr. Strange really can attack things while sitting in his extra-dimensional home then I'd agree that this cosmic-level power can beat Superman:smallbiggrin: ) Well, considering he's a good guy and Superman is the big blue boyscout, I'd give Marvel a good chance of pulling this off. Even if he wasn't, Marvel can zoom it at high speed and have a decent chance of hitting first.

3) Able to withstand his attacks and hurt him back (quite a few magic themed people can hurt him but few are able to even react in order to do so)

yep. Marvel has the same level of strength and endurance, but he's magically based.

[Blue Paladin]

Martian Manhunter fills most of your criteria, and fills his own win condition :P

1) Flash/Superman level superspeed (only a handfull in either Marvel or DC and they lack his durability&strength)Not quite... J'onn is fast, but not that fast.

2) Garunteed first-strike (Supersenses+superspeed really wreck this but if Dr. Strange really can attack things while sitting in his extra-dimensional home then I'd agree that this cosmic-level power can beat Superman )The whole invisibililty and intangibility thing ensures MM will have the first effective strike.

3) Able to withstand his attacks and hurt him back (quite a few magic themed people can hurt him but few are able to even react in order to do so)As strong and durable as Supes, and lately, not afraid of fire. It mirrors Superman's own "slowly getting tougher against kryptonite" power creep.

But anyway, J'onn's trump card is his telepathy. Supes doesn't have anything that can match that.

[GoC]

Check. Speed of Mercury= fast enough to match Superman.
Speed of Mercury<<Superman's Speed
Nowhere near in fact.
And D&D Mercury can't even get into the Mach numbers.:smalltongue:
Provide some evidence that he can aproach light speed and then we'll talk.


yep. Marvel has the same level of strength and endurance, but he's magically based.

Haven't seen Marvel moving planets.

Blue Paladin: Yep. Telepathy is one of his big weaknesses.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Well, Superman doesn't ususally use his super-speed...But I remember Black Adam once racing Jay Garrick for some reason or other, and he got up to mach...5? 10? Some hypersonic speed, anyway. And EVERYTHING says that Marvel is just as strong as Superman. With element of surprise, Marvel once laid out Superman with two punches (in Grant Morrison's run on JLA, during the war with the fifth dimension). Superman's not nearly as strong as his pre-crisis self.

And yeah...J'onn took out the post-crisis Ultraman once.

[Viscount Einstrauss]

I'm not sure if it's been mentioned yet or not, but apparently the Flash when using enough of the Speed Force can apparently knock Supes flat and seriously threaten his life. Plus the Flash is totally awesome, so he's my vote for slagging Superman, despite how much I like the great progenitor.

[GoC]

I'm not sure if it's been mentioned yet or not, but apparently the Flash when using enough of the Speed Force can apparently knock Supes flat and seriously threaten his life. Plus the Flash is totally awesome, so he's my vote for slagging Superman, despite how much I like the great progenitor.

Time manipulation powers (of which superspeed is one) are the most powerful and unbalanced in comics (even more than the Mary Sues "kill people by thinking about it" powers).
Flash should be able to defeat all the DC and Marvel heroes at once but he loses to the Turtle.:smallannoyed:

Grod_The_Giant: True. As I said above, without Superspeed he's fairly easy to defeat.
Any idea why Sups always forgets he has it?

[Blue Paladin]

But I remember Black Adam once racing Jay Garrick for some reason or other, and he got up to mach...5? 10? Some hypersonic speed, anyway.That's interesting. There's a post-Crisis Flash/Superman race, and the villain that set it up used Jay Garrick instead of Wally (because Speed Force Wally is uber). As is typical of Flash vs Superman, they were roughly equal. If Black Adam is as fast as Jay Garrick, and Jay is as fast as Superman, then Black Adam is as fast as Superman.

And GoC, as far as strength and toughness, I was looking through a TPB of Superman (I think the issue was Action 481? I forget exactly), where Black Adam (under the influence of a telepath) smacks Superman away; now this was a fairly off-balance swipe (arm only, no wind-up or anything), and Superman thinks, "he hits harder than Captain Marvel" (although that's easily explained by Marvel splitting his power between himself, Mary, and CM3). Supes further thinks specifically about how he gets to really cut loose against a guy like Adam. His full power punch knocks Adam into a nearby building. That's it. That sounds to me like pretty equal in terms of power and toughness.

[Grod_The_Giant]

That's interesting. There's a post-Crisis Flash/Superman race, and the villain that set it up used Jay Garrick instead of Wally (because Speed Force Wally is uber). As is typical of Flash vs Superman, they were roughly equal. If Black Adam is as fast as Jay Garrick, and Jay is as fast as Superman, then Black Adam is as fast as Superman.

And GoC, as far as strength and toughness, I was looking through a TPB of Superman (I think the issue was Action 481? I forget exactly), where Black Adam (under the influence of a telepath) smacks Superman away; now this was a fairly off-balance swipe (arm only, no wind-up or anything), and Superman thinks, "he hits harder than Captain Marvel" (although that's easily explained by Marvel splitting his power between himself, Mary, and CM3). Supes further thinks specifically about how he gets to really cut loose against a guy like Adam. His full power punch knocks Adam into a nearby building. That's it. That sounds to me like pretty equal in terms of power and toughness.
EVERYTHING says that Superman and the Marvels are equal in physical attributes.

[GoC]

EVERYTHING says that Superman and the Marvels are equal in physical attributes.

Apart from speed (and super-senses, -cakemaking, -math and -basketweaving:smallbiggrin: ) of course.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Apart from speed (and super-senses, -cakemaking, -math and -basketweaving:smallbiggrin: ) of course.

apart from senses, vision, and breath. But with the ability to call down a whopping big bolt of magical lightning.

[Hawriel]

Zatana.

"tna na si tnek kralc" <squish>

[sealemon]

Katana, with her soul eating sword. She could not only kill hi, but could then laugh at his tortured spirit.

Assuming Superman wasn't expecting the attack, of course. THat whole superspeed thing once again.

[Green Bean]

Katana, with her soul eating sword. She could not only kill hi, but could then laugh at his tortured spirit.

Assuming Superman wasn't expecting the attack, of course. THat whole superspeed thing once again.

Super-Senses too. Try sneaking up on someone who can hear your heartbeat from a mile away.

Edit: The wiki article says that the sword only eats the souls of those it kills. So you'd have to worry about the rest of Supes' powers, especially the part where he rips your head off.

[Tamburlaine]

I still maintain that a GL (or Sinestro I suppose) power ring would do it best.