Shield Slam or a Ramming Shield?

[Molosse]

A question on which people feel is a better take and, as an aside, a question on how the hell everything interacts.

A Ramming Shield does the following:
When the wielder of a ramming shield makes a shield bash attack as part of a charge, the shield's enhancement bonus to Armor Class applies to the attack and damage rolls. This doesn't stack with any existing enhancement the shield has. If the attack hits, as a swift action the wielder can attempt a bull rush combat maneuver against that target, adding the +2 bonus for charging and the shield's enhancement bonus to the combat maneuver check. Only shields that can make a shield bash attack can have the ramming ability.

While the Shield Slam feat works a tad differently:
Any opponents hit by your shield bash are also hit with a free bull rush attack, substituting your attack roll for the combat maneuver check. This bull rush does not provoke an attack of opportunity. Opponents who cannot move back due to a wall or other surface are knocked prone after moving the maximum possible distance. You may choose to move with your target if you are able to take a 5-foot step or to spend an action to move this turn.

So, if as part of a charge, I decide to use a Shield Bash with a Ramming shield I add my enhancement bonus to the attack and damage rolls and, if the attack hits, I can spend a swift action to make a separate Bull Rush attempt with an attached +2 from charging which is easy enough, which seems to allow me to make the normal move with target you can normally take with a Bull Rush.

Now, as part of another charge, I have just the Shield Slam feat. So if the charge connects and I hit with my shield, lacking the enhancement bonus to attack and damage rolls, I have a free action to make a Bull Rush attempt but one where I substitute my attack roll for the normal check.

Now a few questions:
A) In regards to substituting my attack roll for the check does that mean I can longer benefit from Improved/Greater Bull Rush but would instead benefit from whatever to hit bonus' I may have had active?
B) If I have both a Ramming Shield and the Shield Slam feat can I charge with a shield bash, spend my swift action Bull Rushing, following the Bull Rushee as normal, and then use a free action to Bull Rush again?
Bi) If so, would the Ramming Shield's effect regarding the enhancement bonus apply to the Bull Rush of the Shield Slam?

[CasualViking]

A: Your bull rush modifers don't matter. You take your die roll + total modifiers from your attack roll and compare them against CMD. Per the Combat chapter, "Attack Roll" means "die roll plus sum of modifiers".
B) IMO, you would need to attempt the Shield Slam BR first, move with the target, and attampt the Ramming Shield BR. Fortunately, Shield Slam doesn't forbid you from follwoing the target as per the normal BR rules, it's just a clumsy wording.
Bi) The enhancement bonus would apply to the attack roll, per Ramming Shield, and as such would indirectly apply to the bull rush as well.

[upho]

I just want to add a few notes to CasualViking's response:

A: Your bull rush modifers don't matter. You take your die roll + total modifiers from your attack roll and compare them against CMD. Per the Combat chapter, "Attack Roll" means "die roll plus sum of modifiers".While this could be correct strictly according to RAW, I doubt it's the intended interpretation. Since combat maneuver checks are attack rolls, I suspect the RAI is that you add the d20 roll made for the initial attack to your bull rush CMB. Otherwise, Shield Slam could have some weird effects which run counter to several other combat maneuver rules and bull rush options. For example, a Gargantuan creature perfoming a bull rush with Shield Slam would receive a -4 size penalty instead of a +4 size bonus on the attempt, and AFAICT not one single mechanic specifically affecting bull rush checks would apply (Impact Weapon, Leveraging Weapon, Gauntlets of the Skilled Maneuver, Pauldrons of the Bull, bull rush feats etc). I recommend you discuss this with your GM and suggest the interpretation that the Shield Slam bull rush is indeed a bull rush CMB check, as the alternative can easily render Shield Slam near useless in higher levels.


B) IMO, you would need to attempt the Shield Slam BR first, move with the target, and attampt the Ramming Shield BR. Fortunately, Shield Slam doesn't forbid you from follwoing the target as per the normal BR rules, it's just a clumsy wording.While I might agree with CasualViking's opinion (since the Shield Slam BR is a free action and the Ramming Shield BR is a swift action), note that outside the rules specifically for AoOs, there are no general rules regulating the order in which multiple actions triggered by the same event (or its immediate effects) must be taken. In my own game, I let the attacker decide. Though the order is irrelevant in this particular case, it might become very important later on (for example if get your hands on a Ramming Maelstrom Shield (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-armor/specific-magic-shields/maelstrom-shield) and have say the Greater Trip and Vicious Stomp feats).

[CasualViking]

I just want to add a few notes to CasualViking's response:
While this could be correct strictly according to RAW, I doubt it's the intended interpretation. Since combat maneuver checks are attack rolls, I suspect the RAI is that you add the d20 roll made for the initial attack to your bull rush CMB.
"Combat Maneuver check" is also "die roll+ modifier". I believe one number for both is the RAI. It would have been no trouble at all to write "make a bull rush", implying roll again and use your CMB. You're suggest that "use A for B" means "use A-X+Z for B".



While I might agree with CasualViking's opinion (since the Shield Slam BR is a free action and the Ramming Shield BR is a swift action), note that outside the rules specifically for AoOs, there are no general rules regulating the order in which multiple actions triggered by the same event (or its immediate effects) must be taken.

If it was a free action, the attacker would choose, but it isn't. It's a no-option no-action effect, resolved as part of your hit, which is why I believe it must go first.