Using Magic Jar to permanently turn yourself into a golem! [Archive]

RoboEmperor

2017-02-02, 07:56 PM

Segev suggested methods that would solve all my problems, so I'm making a thread to double check!

This is what he said:
1. Magic Jar yourself into a new body.
2. Transform your old body into something else.
3. End Magic Jar and go into your new and improved body!

So for example...
1. You magic jar yourself into a new body.
2. You turn your old body into Stone.
3. You then turn your Stone Body into a Stone Golem over the course of months in your new body.
4. Once the Golem is alive and active, end Magic Jar.
You are now a Stone Golem!

So is there a problem with this? The key point here is that your original body is changed drastically. I mean if you lop an arm off, its still your body just without an arm, so you still return to it so the question is how much modifications can you make before it's no longer your body? Polymorphed body? Can you return to that? If so, how about you Fabricating your Stone Body along with nearby stone to make a Large or Huge Stone Body?

Another key point here is that Golems are mindless, meaning they have no souls, so when you return to your body, you aren't forcing any soul out. Does anyone have a problem with this interpretation?

Jack_Simth

2017-02-02, 08:19 PM

Hmm...

Well, there is the funny bit about the body:

A stone golem’s body is chiseled from a single block of hard stone, such as granite, weighing at least 3,000 pounds. The stone must be of exceptional quality, and costs 5,000 gp. Assembling the body requires a DC 17 Craft (sculpting) check or a DC 17 Craft (stonemasonry) check.

Does the result of a Flesh to Stone spell constitute exceptional quality stone?

RoboEmperor

2017-02-02, 08:23 PM

Hmm...

Well, there is the funny bit about the body:

Does the result of a Flesh to Stone spell constitute exceptional quality stone?

Alright, lets take baby steps here, how about Permanency-ed Animated Object? They are significantly more lenient on material. So you fabricate your statue stone body along with nearby stone to make a gargantuan stone statue and then animate object it. Is it still your body? Is your a new body using your old body as material, or is it your old body upgraded with more material? Consider the case of a polymorphed body as well.

I mean we've established stone body is still your body, stone body minus an arm is still your body, but how about stone body plus an arm? I think it is, so what about stone body plus a new giant head? And then a new giant torso? etc. etc.

Silva Stormrage

2017-02-02, 09:35 PM

RoboEmperor

2017-02-02, 09:40 PM

I don't know about RAW on this and I quite expect it to be mostly silent but I think turning your body to stone and ending the effect should basically treat the body as "Destroyed" for the purposes of the magic jar. Your body for all intensive purposes is gone and no longer able to function as anything relevant to it's original purpose.

Thats how I would rule it as a DM anyway.

Body isn't gone. A stone to flesh spell will return it to its normal state. Your logic would say that if it was destroyed when it turned to stone, then when it turned back to a body it's a new, different body.

If the statue resulting from this spell is broken or damaged, the subject (if ever returned to its original state) has similar damage or deformities. The creature is not dead, but it does not seem to be alive either when viewed with spells such as deathwatch.

The stone body is not dead henceforth not destroyed. When you return to your statue body you are imprisoned in it.

The Great Wyrm

2017-02-02, 09:45 PM

for all intensive purposes

grammar rage activated

Anyway, in an actual game, the result would be up to the DM. It would be prudent to ask beforehand whether or not your character would die or otherwise be incapacitated from attempting this.

Anthrowhale

2017-02-02, 10:29 PM

Does the result of a Flesh to Stone spell constitute exceptional quality stone?

Stone Metamorphosis provides instantaneous transformation into any chosen type of rock.

RoboEmperor

2017-02-02, 10:35 PM

Stone Metamorphosis provides instantaneous transformation into any chosen type of rock.

Thank you! You are a life saver.

edit: With that spell I can forgo the entire body cost of all stone golems. :D

Calthropstu

2017-02-02, 11:45 PM

Darrin

2017-02-03, 06:21 AM

Pleh

2017-02-03, 07:21 AM

If Darrin says it's so, then I don't doubt it's been subject to a great deal of scrutiny already.

But I do have a question.

How do you use Flesh to Stone on a corpse? After all, while under the effects of Magic Jar, "your body is, as near as anyone can tell, dead."

A dead body is not a creature, but an object. Flesh to Stone targets "One Creature" and not objects.

I'm sure people have come up with a justification for this. I'm just not sure what that justification could be.

Zombimode

2017-02-03, 07:22 AM

Body isn't gone. A stone to flesh spell will return it to its normal state. Your logic would say that if it was destroyed when it turned to stone, then when it turned back to a body it's a new, different body.

Your body doesn't need to be "gone" in order to be destroyed. If you cut the throat of your body while Magic Jar'ed and then end the spell you will die, too.
If your body is made of stone you are unable to survive in that. Thus, you will die.

Polymorph Any Object will not help in this situation. Spells like it do more then just alter the body. They also transform *you*. But if you cast it at your body while you are in another body *you* are not there to be subject of the spell.

Also, no, your last sentence would NOT follow from that. If you turn your Body into Stone it is in a state not suitable for survival (normal victims of Flesh to Stone survive the Transformation because the spell effected them - in the Magic Jar case, again, you were not there to be affected by the Flesh to Stone effect), thus you'll die when you try to return into it.
If you turn it back to flesh, your Body will be restored and thus be in a state suitable for survival. You can savely return.

Segev

2017-02-03, 07:40 AM

If you turn your Body into Stone it is in a state not suitable for survival (normal victims of Flesh to Stone survive the Transformation because the spell effected them - in the Magic Jar case, again, you were not there to be affected by the Flesh to Stone effect), thus you'll die when you try to return into it.
If you turn it back to flesh, your Body will be restored and thus be in a state suitable for survival. You can savely return.

If I turn Willie the Wizard into a stone statue with flesh to stone, and then use stone to flesh to turn him back, Willie the Wizard is just fine (barring failed saves for shock, though that might be a 2e thing I'm remembering). The same is true if Willie (perhaps foolishly) turns himself to stone, and I turn him back.

If Willie possesses Cam the Commoner with magic jar and turns his own body to stone, then ends magic jar, there is no reason to assume that, when I cast stone to flesh on Willie, he won't be just as fine as he would have been had he turned himself to stone without being in a magic jar at the time. His spirit is preserved in the stone statue if it was in there before; clearly it is capable of occupying it.

Making the stone statue able to move doesn't stop it from being Willie's body, either.

Though I suppose there's still the question of whether using flesh to stone on Willie, then using some means of animating the statue that doesn't leave it under somebody else's control, leaves Willie in charge, or leaves Willie imprisoned in his own body that is moving mindlessly on its own.

Since the rules don't cover this, it really is a DM's call; I'd personally go for rule of cool, barring some deeper metaphysics I'd developed that would clash with said cool rule.

ShurikVch

2017-02-03, 07:50 AM

I'm sorry, but...

Construct Type (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#constructType):
•Immunity to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, stunning, disease, death effects, and necromancy effects.Magic Jar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magicJar.htm):
Necromancy
Level: Sor/Wiz 5
Components: V, S, F
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Target: One creature
Duration: 1 hour/level or until you return to your body
Saving Throw: Will negates; see text
Spell Resistance: Yes

Segev

2017-02-03, 08:08 AM

I'm sorry, but...

Construct Type (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#constructType):Magic Jar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magicJar.htm):

1) Immunities to magic can be voluntarily lowered.

2) None of the techniques being used here actually involve a Necromancy effect being used on the construct. The Necromancy effect was used on the person who becomes the construct when they were not a construct. It is the ENDING of the Necromancy effect which puts the caster's soul back into the golem body. You cannot be immune to a spell ending.

Zombimode

2017-02-03, 08:11 AM

If Willie possesses Cam the Commoner with magic jar and turns his own body to stone, then ends magic jar, there is no reason to assume that, when I cast stone to flesh on Willie, he won't be just as fine as he would have been had he turned himself to stone without being in a magic jar at the time. His spirit is preserved in the stone statue if it was in there before; clearly it is capable of occupying it.

You are missing a crucial difference between the two Scenarios: in the first case, Willie is affected by the Flesh to Stone effect.
In the later case he is NOT, since at the time of the effect taking place he is not in his original Body.

It is reasonable to assume that under equal preconditions the same effects will have the same results. Since the preconditions are not equal you DO have reasons to assume that Willie will not be fine.

Sure, in the end it is a DMs call. I've just layed down may reasoning for the way I would handle the issue.

ShurikVch

2017-02-03, 08:41 AM

1) Immunities to magic can be voluntarily lowered.Quote, please!
Because I'm suspecting it doesn't works like this
Skeleton (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/skeleton.htm) wouldn't be affected by Poison (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/poison.htm) just because it's master ordered to drop the immunity

The Necromancy effect was used on the person who becomes the construct when they were not a construct.Why the person bewcomes the Construct?

You cannot be immune to a spell ending.Actually, yes, you can.
For example, if somebody under the effect of Transcend Mortality will be killed before the spell's end, then he will be pretty immune to the "instantly slain and reduced to a pile of dust"

Darrin

2017-02-03, 08:43 AM

If Darrin says it's so, then I don't doubt it's been subject to a great deal of scrutiny already.

Sort of. It's in that area of Theoretical Optimization where the optimizers take it for granted that it works, but under the scrutiny of an obstinate DM it has the whiff of dubiousness. The crux of the matter is that the rules for magic jar don't specify what happens if you cast magic jar again or what happens if you manage to circumvent the two places where the spell assumes your consciousness can be. Since the rules don't cover it, it falls under the purview of DM adjudication, and the DM could rule that it doesn't work, that you die, that your soul winds up in a nondimensional state of nonbeing, or whatever suits his fancy.

Doc Roc's reasoning uses a somewhat different standard, which I'm going to arbitrarily call "Tippy RAW": The DM follows RAW (Rules As Written) unless the intent is overwhelmingly obvious (monks proficient with unarmed strikes) or it is absolutely necessary to step in and fix something that absolutely breaks the game in a non-functional way. Under this standard, the DM cedes most rules ambiguity to the players, who can deliberately interpret that ambiguity into a favorable situation for the player. The player's solution here: I get to stay in the body permanently isn't entirely RAW (which is silent on this issue), but it's not broken in a non-functional way. Is it overpowered? Yes, absolutely, but it's still functionally playable.

How do you use Flesh to Stone on a corpse? After all, while under the effects of Magic Jar, "your body is, as near as anyone can tell, dead."

A dead body is not a creature, but an object. Flesh to Stone targets "One Creature" and not objects.

From a strictly RAW standpoint, I believe you are correct. Flesh to stone only works on creatures, and a dead body is an object, not a creature. Doc Roc's trick doesn't really bother with this step, as there's no need to turn yourself into a stone golem when you can just grab any already-built golem you want (Shadesteel Golems are the preferred body if you can't get your hands on an Ice Assassin Aleax). However, there are some very oddball RAW consequences with flesh to stone that don't necessarily pertain to this topic: once you've been petrified by this spell, you no longer count as either living or dead. You're not a creature, so spells that target creatures no longer work on you, and while you're now an object, you can still be returned to creaturehood with the right spell (usually stone to flesh or break enchantment). (I used this loophole as the basis for my last D&D campaign, where certain artifacts were "hidden" from powerful discern location spells by giving them to a creature and turning them into stone.)

If you're looking for another method to turn a temporary body into a permanent body, then the go-to method for that is usually astral seed, as featured in the Psionic Sandwich trick (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=16939527&postcount=27). You can also start with a fusion appetizer, as I did with my Black Sparrow build (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21197986&postcount=91), which mashes up a cryohydra with a chronotyryn as her new form (and she can Split (Ex) off an infinite number of those forms).

Another trick that might work... I fiddled around with trap the soul while working on Black Sparrow. The thought was that when you get hit with trap the soul, your material body is essentially destroyed, or rather, stored inside the gem. When the gem is broken, it allows the "material body to reform". My idea was your new body is created exactly how it was when it went into the gem. But trap the soul doesn't really care if the body that went inside the gem was the result of ongoing spell shenanigans, it just recreates exactly what went inside the gem at the moment your soul was trapped. So presumably, this newly created body is now your permanent form, regardless of whether it had 7 heads or 11 arms or a few dozen eyestalks. However, the RAW here isn't entirely clear, so I abandoned it for the somewhat more well-known fusion/astral seed trick.

Anthrowhale

2017-02-03, 08:53 AM

This is a well-known trick in various optimization circles. Doc Roc came up with it in his Commodore Guff (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=9186526&postcount=83) build, but everyone else calls it "Doc Roc's magic jar trick (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?200516-3-x-I-have-brought-you-Devastation)".

This is actually a different trick---it's using two magic jar's and the lack of any specification about what happens when the soul is not in the magic jar or a host body when the spell ends. This one works by RAW because nothing specified means nothing happens and nothing happens means that when the second magic jar ends, you end up in the first host body.

Segev's approach uses only one magic jar (at least conceptually) and alters the original body before the spell ends. However, the control issue is real---RAW you become mindless the moment you cast Flesh to Stone on your body as I don't see anything about using magic jar which makes your body not 'you' w.r.t. the mindless clause in Flesh to Stone.

There is a nice evil wizard move here though.

Flesh to Stone on good guy.
Animate object on resulting statue.
Statue attacks allies.

Pleh

2017-02-03, 08:55 AM

Wait, how are you Magic Jar-ing into a Golem directly? I thought the point to crafting your body into a golem was to bypass the magic immunity?

Magic Jar allows Spell Resistance and Golems are immune to spells that allow spell resistance.

Where's the loophole here?

EDIT: I see Commodore Guff involves using the Gate spell to essentially force a Balor to voluntarily lower its SR and voluntarily fail its next save. Segev noted that magic immunity could be voluntarily lowered, so it makes me wonder why there needs to be a cheesy trick if that is true.

If a Golem can choose to lower their magic immunity, can't the creator command the golem to do whatever they want? Just command them to lower their magic immunity and Jar in directly without need for shenanigans. Maybe use the Double Jar trick from Doc Roc to make it permanent, but I imagine that's not the only way to persistomancy this into permanency.

RoboEmperor

2017-02-03, 09:19 AM

I would rule it that if you tried this, you would be unable to control the body.

It would be the same if you were turned to stone and someone else cast animate object on your statued body. Since you can't do anything while turned to stone, not even purely mental actions, you couldn't control your own animate object spell. You would be a mindless animated object.

The "Mindless" in flesh to stone is where this is defeated.

If you magic jar a Mindless Undead Skeleton, you control his body with 0 resistance, and there is no soul. Someone else casted Animate Dead but you still control the Mindless Undead Skeleton.

So by parallelism...

If you magic jar a Mindless Construct polymorphed into a nonconstruct, you control his body with 0 resistance, and there is no soul. Someone else casted Animate Objects but you still control the Mindless Construct polymorphed into a non construct.

@those who say you can't return to your statue body.
The thing is, your statue body is capable of holding a soul. It's not an ordinary statue, it's a petrified body.

Petrified

A petrified character has been turned to stone and is considered unconscious. If a petrified character cracks or breaks, but the broken pieces are joined with the body as he returns to flesh, he is unharmed. If the character’s petrified body is incomplete when it returns to flesh, the body is likewise incomplete and there is some amount of permanent hit point loss and/or debilitation.

@those who say you can't target a corpse or a soulless body with Flesh to Stone
Yup, this is RAW. I guess you gotta use Polymorph Any Object, or you have someone turn you to stone, then magic jar your body, and you cast silent and stilled Magic Jar while you're in his Magic Jar. Or something like that XD

@those who say construct immunity will stop necromancy effect from resolving.
Simple, use PaO on the construct so its not a construct anymore. Hell, turn him into your former body just for extra clarification.

Segev

2017-02-03, 09:19 AM

Quote, please!
Because I'm suspecting it doesn't works like this
Skeleton (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/skeleton.htm) wouldn't be affected by Poison (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/poison.htm) just because it's master ordered to drop the immunityThe quote is earlier in this thread, I believe, but it's the one where they use elves lowering their invulnerability to magical sleep as an example. I won't say it makes a whole lot of sense, once you step out of the rules of the model and try to examine what it's modeling, but it is part of the rules. Yes, the immunity to magical poison can be voluntarily lowered by the skeleton. Silly, but part of the RAW.

Why the person bewcomes the Construct?Shorthand. What's happening is that the person's body is transformed into a construct while the person's mind/spirit/soul is outside said body. When the effect - which is temporary - keeping his soul out of his body ends, his soul returns to his body, unless his body is out of range or destroyed. Neither is the case; we were very careful not to destroy his body.

Actually, yes, you can.
For example, if somebody under the effect of Transcend Mortality will be killed before the spell's end, then he will be pretty immune to the "instantly slain and reduced to a pile of dust"Nope. That's a final effect as the spell ends, not "the spell ending." The spell ending is them ceasing to have the transcendent immortality the spell grants.

The spell ending in this case is the effect that has your soul outside of your body. You're never using magic to force your soul into your body. The magic keeping it out is ending, so it returns.

RoboEmperor

2017-02-03, 09:40 AM

Ok, I've done some more research on the subject matter.

My own contradictions:
My body is a petrified body. Mixing my petrified body with nearby stone to make a golem doesn't remove the fact that pieces of my petrified body are still independent of the golem. If someone hits a Stone to Flesh Spell on the petrified portion of my golem, my mangled body will fall out. He has to target the parts containing the petrified body, not the golem. Q.E.D., my body wasn't turned into a golem, so... I guess my plan FAILED.

Segev's plan however suggested I use Enlarge Person before petrifying my body, I don't know the RAW ruling of that. If enlarge person ends, does the petrified body stay large? If so how about Polymorph? You shapechange yourself into a colossal creature, someone turns you to stone, Shapechange Ends, and then like a year later someone casts Stone to Flesh on you. What happens?

1. When shapechange ends, you turn into a petrified normal body?
2. When Stone to Flesh ends, you are now permanently the colossal creature?
3. When Stone to Flesh ends, you turn into your normal body?

ShurikVch

2017-02-03, 09:40 AM

The quote is earlier in this thread, I believe, but it's the one where they use elves lowering their invulnerability to magical sleep as an example. I won't say it makes a whole lot of sense, once you step out of the rules of the model and try to examine what it's modeling, but it is part of the rules. Yes, the immunity to magical poison can be voluntarily lowered by the skeleton. Silly, but part of the RAW.Since there, actually, wasn't any quote to prove it, excuse me for disbelieving it

Shorthand. What's happening is that the person's body is transformed into a construct while the person's mind/spirit/soul is outside said body. When the effect - which is temporary - keeping his soul out of his body ends, his soul returns to his body, unless his body is out of range or destroyed. Neither is the case; we were very careful not to destroy his body.But how exactly body turns into Construct?

Nope. That's a final effect as the spell ends, not "the spell ending." The spell ending is them ceasing to have the transcendent immortality the spell grants.Spell ends when either it's duration runs out, or it's dispelled
Sometimes, also, may be counterspelled, or stopped with successful saving throw(s)
No other ways
Minor inconveniences - such as death of affected creature - wouldn't stop the spell (unless death is the spell's trigger - such as for Death Pact, Seed of Undeath, or Undeath after Death)

RoboEmperor

2017-02-03, 09:44 AM

But how exactly body turns into Construct?

Stone Golems have really lax requirements on what a body is. Basically its just the size that matters. So if you are a large creature and you are turned into stone, your large petrified body is a Stone Golem body. Just spend months animating it and there you go, your body is now a golem. It's no different than someone casting animate dead on your deceased corpse. Because your body is MINDLESS one can conclude you take over it, because if you take over a Mindless creature with Magic Jar, you take over it.

Darrin

2017-02-03, 09:44 AM

This is actually a different trick---it's using two magic jar's and the lack of any specification about what happens when the soul is not in the magic jar or a host body when the spell ends. This one works by RAW because nothing specified means nothing happens and nothing happens means that when the second magic jar ends, you end up in the first host body.

Well, it's a related trick. Commodore Guff is a bit more expedient: you don't need to create a golem body, you just grab any ol' shadesteel golem that's already there.

Segev's approach uses only one magic jar (at least conceptually) and alters the original body before the spell ends. However, the control issue is real---RAW you become mindless the moment you cast Flesh to Stone on your body as I don't see anything about using magic jar which makes your body not 'you' w.r.t. the mindless clause in Flesh to Stone.

The wording of magic jar is very problematic. I addressed this in a PM but I'm going to steal most of it and repost it here... the crux of it is it's not clear if the original body is a corpse (object) or a helpless creature. The two problem spots:

1) "leaving your body lifeless"
2) "your body is, as near as anyone can tell, dead"

However... I believe the caster here is "mostly dead" rather than "all dead". The spell description doesn't really go into much detail about what happens to the caster's original body other than to say that the caster dies if his original body is "destroyed". The word choice here is interesting, because it doesn't say "killed" (which would be more appropriate for a creature), it says "destroyed" (which would be more appropriate for an object). However, from a practical standpoint, if you attack the caster's original body, the DM is likely to treat the attack as if it were against a helpless creature: deduct HPs or make saving throws as normal, same as any other creature that isn't currently dead.

The other problem with treating the body as "all dead" is there is no provision in the spell description that allows the body to come back to life. There's no raise dead or resurrection effect here, so if the original body becomes a corpse, when the magic jar effect ends, the caster's consciousness returns to a corpse... and stays a corpse. And I think I'm standing on pretty firm ground if I say that's not how the designers intended the spell to work.

So I'd have to say that the status of the caster's original body is ambiguous. The spell description says "dead" but from a mechanical standpoint it's sorta-kinda still alive for certain purposes. The phrase "near as anyone can tell" is also problematic, as this suggests that creatures examining the body are given the appearance of death, which leaves open the possibility that this is just how it appears to creatures and the status of the body is treated as something different for other effects.

As far as flesh to stone goes, we have two possibilities:

1) original body is functionally dead for all purposes, so flesh to stone fizzles with no valid target.
2) original body is turned to stone because functionally it's still a creature with just the appearance of death, and a spell doesn't count as "anyone can tell".

This would be a DM's Call, but even if the DM decided on 1), there are plenty of other ways to manipulate a corpse that could produce a stone or golem-like body, or any other sort of body you might prefer. Polymorph any object certainly comes to mind, but there are lots of other spells that could permanently change the body into something much more interesting.

I wonder if call of stone (PHBII) might work better here, as the transformation takes place over several rounds. Once you fail the first save, you can cast magic jar, and then wait 3 more rounds for your lifeless body to fail 3 more saves, which turns it to stone. You might run into the same "fizzle" problem, though, if your original body counts as an object instead of a helpless creature.

Wait, how are you Magic Jar-ing into a Golem directly? I thought the point to crafting your body into a golem was to bypass the magic immunity?

Magic Immunity is described as functioning like "Spell Resistance". SR can be voluntarily lowered. If you created or have control over a golem, then there's a school of thought which says you can order them to voluntary lower their Magic Immunity as if it were SR.

Zanos

2017-02-03, 10:07 AM

Since there, actually, wasn't any quote to prove it, excuse me for disbelieving it
I posted it in the other thread.

A creature can voluntarily forego a saving throw and willingly accept a spell’s result. Even a character with a special resistance to magic(for example, an elf's resistance to sleep effects) can suppress this quality.

A skeleton being poisoned makes about as much sense as a creature that physically does not sleep taking a nap, but there it is.

Segev

2017-02-03, 10:15 AM

Since there, actually, wasn't any quote to prove it, excuse me for disbelieving it You're excused. I don't think this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#savingThrow) is the original quote I was looking for, because the one I recall specifically referenced elven immunity to sleep, but it does specify, under Voluntarily Failing a Saving Throw, that even creatures with special immunities to magic can voluntarily accept the magical effect.

Magic Immunity is described as functioning like "Spell Resistance". SR can be voluntarily lowered. If you created or have control over a golem, then there's a school of thought which says you can order them to voluntary lower their Magic Immunity as if it were SR.There's also this; you can find it under the rules for Spell Resistance (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#spellImmunity).

All of that said, it's irrelevant for the trick I proposed, because you're never casting magic jar on your stone golem body. You're using magic jar to possess an assistant or patsy, and using the host body while you transform your original body into a stone golem. Then, when magic jar ends, you return to your own body (which is a stone golem).

But how exactly body turns into Construct?Get your own body to Large size (enlarge person should do it). While it is Large, magic jar out of it and cast flesh to stone on it. You are now in somebody else's body, looking at a Large-size-category stone statue of yourself.

Use your Craft Construct feat to transform that block of stone into a stone golem. Keep magic jar active by re-casting it twice a day (or re-casting an extended magic jar once per day) so that you don't return to your body before this process is done.

When the stone golem is functional, allow magic jar's duration to lapse. You return to your own body when that happens. Your own body is a stone golem. Which you now inhabit. Congratulations!

Spell ends when either it's duration runs out, or it's dispelled
Sometimes, also, may be counterspelled, or stopped with successful saving throw(s)
No other waysRight. Not sure how this is relevant. The point is that you allow the spell to end. Which, since magic jar actually has a specific thing you can do (return to your own body) to end the spell early, is really easy.

Minor inconveniences - such as death of affected creature - wouldn't stop the spell (unless death is the spell's trigger - such as for Death Pact, Seed of Undeath, or Undeath after Death)Also true, but irrelevant. The point is that you allow it to end. Not that you prevent it from doing so.

Zanos

2017-02-03, 10:24 AM

Pleh

2017-02-03, 10:31 AM

I feel like "Stone to Flesh" has some language that is helpful in an ancillary way.

Snip

The spell also can convert a mass of stone into a fleshy substance. Such flesh is inert and lacking a vital life force unless a life force or magical energy is available. (For example, this spell would turn a stone golem into a flesh golem, but an ordinary statue would become a corpse.) You can affect an object that fits within a cylinder from 1 foot to 3 feet in diameter and up to 10 feet long or a cylinder of up to those dimensions in a larger mass of stone.

Once again, note that the spell specifically says that a Stone Golem is Transmuted into a Flesh Golem, despite both types of Golems being immune to this spell since it offers Spell Resistance. Since it specifically says what it would do despite the immunity, it seems to agree that a Golem could choose to forego their immunity to allow the spell to transmute them.

Now, as for the questions about reshaping your body, how about this? What if the caster was bleeding out and needed surgery (alas, no magic healing at hand). The Caster knows how to stitch himself back together, but can't operate on himself while in his own body and no one else is skilled enough.

Luckily our caster has Magic Jar prepared. He pops into a gem (suspending his body in a deathlike state where the bleeding damage might be suspended as well, depending on what was causing it), then a willing ally lets him possess their body to perform the surgery. He rolls a Heal check and succeeds. Then he dismisses the spell and returns to his body. In theory, he's just modified his own physical condition from outside it. He keeps the benefits of the changes he made.

So now later the Caster performs the same trick to perform other surgeries, this time not in the course of preserving his life. Just a few grafts here. Some cosmetic surgery to change his identity there. You know. Nothing that would "destroy" his body. Just modify it. He then returns to his body.

Continue down the slippery slope and how is this all that different from intentionally converting his own body into a flesh golem? Albeit he still needs to cast the spells required to actually transform his body into a golem.

The golem made from his own body naturally obeys his commands and can waive its magic immunity to allow him to dismiss his magic jar and repossess his body, now with all the benefits of being a flesh golem.

ShurikVch

2017-02-03, 10:40 AM

You're excused. I don't think this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#savingThrow) is the original quote I was looking for, because the one I recall specifically referenced elven immunity to sleep, but it does specify, under Voluntarily Failing a Saving Throw, that even creatures with special immunities to magic can voluntarily accept the magical effect.This RAW is dysfunctional
Magical protection is one thing, but when target is immune by it's very nature, then how, exactly, it can "supress" it?
Just because Wizard hit Fire Elemental with Dominate Monster, Fire Elemental shouldn't suddenly become vulnerable to Wizard's Scorching Ray
It can get silly really really fast:
-Player with Druid PC: I casting Giant Vermin (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/giantVermin.htm) on my Companion.
-DM: But your Companion isn't of Vermin type!
-Player with Druid PC: Yes. I just ordered it to suppress immunity to Giant Vermin. :smallamused:

Get your own body to Large size (enlarge person should do it). While it is Large, magic jar out of it and cast flesh to stone on it. You are now in somebody else's body, looking at a Large-size-category stone statue of yourself.

Use your Craft Construct feat to transform that block of stone into a stone golem. Keep magic jar active by re-casting it twice a day (or re-casting an extended magic jar once per day) so that you don't return to your body before this process is done.

When the stone golem is functional, allow magic jar's duration to lapse. You return to your own body when that happens. Your own body is a stone golem. Which you now inhabit. Congratulations!By carving form of Stone Golem out of your petrified body, you will cause untold amount of hp damage to it.
How you will know it isn't at -10?

Right. Not sure how this is relevant.It's certainly relevant, because spell ends, but doesn't do what RAW says it do in the end

Zanos

2017-02-03, 10:43 AM

This RAW is dysfunctional
Magical protection is one thing, but when target is immune by it's very nature, then how, exactly, it can "supress" it?
Just because Wizard hit Fire Elemental with Dominate Monster, Fire Elemental shouldn't suddenly become vulnerable to Wizard's Scorching Ray
It can get silly really really fast:
-Player with Druid PC: I casting Giant Vermin (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/giantVermin.htm) on my Companion.
-DM: But your Companion isn't of Vermin type!
-Player with Druid PC: Yes. I just ordered it to suppress immunity to Giant Vermin. :smallamused:d
Immunity and invalid targeting are different things. An outsider isn't immune to dominate person, it just can't be targeted by it. Same applies here. You can't suppress your inability to be targeted. If magic jar targeted a living creature there would be an issue.

Also your fire elemental example is kind of flawed in that there's a feat in this game that allows you to burn fire elementals to death, and no, it's not a dysfunction.

Segev

2017-02-03, 10:45 AM

I'm not sure that turning your body into stone then using that stone to craft a construct has the result still being "your body." If a wolf eats your flesh and incorporates parts of your physical structure into it, the wolf does not become your body. Your body is an arrangement of pieces, and when you break the arrangement it's gone. (https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/lego.png)

This is actually answered, I think, but the discussion in flesh to stone about what happens when you start carving into the statue made from petrifying somebody. Specifically, damage done to the statue is damage done to the person should he be restored. If the damage is not sufficient to be fatal (which, given we're mostly not measuring hp damage, here, since a stone statue and even a helpless humanoid would have different amounts, means that we have to eye-ball the cosmetic nature of the damage: is it smashed in such a way that, when turned back to flesh, the body could still survive?), a stone to flesh spell restores the creature to life (albeit injured).

The creature is still the same being, unless and until the statue is smashed such that it would revert to a dead creature.

If the damage done to your petrified body is sufficient to kill you should you turn it back to flesh, then the body is safely said to be "destroyed," which falls under the defined clauses of magic jar: When the spell ends, you die.

If the damage done is not sufficient to qualify the statue (and thus your body) as being destroyed, then your body is, tautologically, not destroyed. Thus you can return to it without dying.

And either way, it's still your body.

(Incidentally, if a wolf ate your fleshy body, that would also be your body being destroyed.)

Zanos

2017-02-03, 10:49 AM

Fair enough. I suppose it depends, then, on how much the stone needs to be worked to turn a statue of you into a stone golem.

Segev

2017-02-03, 10:54 AM

This RAW is dysfunctionalDysfunctions are things which don't work, not things which seem silly. This is the latter.

Magical protection is one thing, but when target is immune by it's very nature, then how, exactly, it can "supress" it?Because the rules say it can. I didn't say it wasn't silly.

Just because Wizard hit Fire Elemental with Dominate Monster, Fire Elemental shouldn't suddenly become vulnerable to Wizard's Scorching RayEnergy immunity/resistance is actually not the same thing as spell immunity/resistance. The fire elemental is actually quite "vulnerable" to scorching ray; it just takes 0 damage from it, because it's immune to the damage that scorching ray does.

It can get silly really really fast:
-Player with Druid PC: I casting Giant Vermin (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/giantVermin.htm) on my Companion.
-DM: But your Companion isn't of Vermin type!
-Player with Druid PC: Yes. I just ordered it to suppress immunity to Giant Vermin. :smallamused:Zanos properly points out that "invalid target" is not the same as "spell immunity."

You can tell the difference at least in part by whether the "immunity" is spelled out in the spell or on the creature's statblock. The latter is something the creature can suppress. The former is nothing the creature can do anything about.

By carving form of Stone Golem out of your petrified body, you will cause untold amount of hp damage to it.
How you will know it isn't at -10?Because you're not carving your body unto destruction. You are, at most, embedding some gems and other arcane stuff into it. Given the description of how stone golems are made, you are probably not even doing that. You don't need to carve your body; it's not starting as a block, so it is already in its final form factor.

It's certainly relevant, because spell ends, but doesn't do what RAW says it do in the endCitation needed. The spell ends, and thus the condition sustained by the spell also ends. You will have to demonstrate a case where a spell's ending doesn't result in what the spell sustains also ending to prove that it's relevant.

Remember: we're not targeting the stone golem with magic jar. Anything predicated on magic jar being unable to target the stone golem thus is irrelevant. The fact that you can target a stone golem with magic jar if you can get its master to order it to lower its immunity to necromancy effects and magic in general is also irrelevant, because we're not trying to.

Segev

2017-02-03, 10:56 AM

Fair enough. I suppose it depends, then, on how much the stone needs to be worked to turn a statue of you into a stone golem.

It does. This is why I recommend enlarge person on yourself first. I had it pointed out that this doesn't mean the statue made from the petrified enlarged body would stay Large, so I suggest making the effect Permanent. Once you actually convert it to a Stone Golem, the Permanency will be superfluous (and thus not vulnerable to dispelling) because Stone Golems are Large. Whatever magics go into animating it will doubtless ensure it stays the right size.

RoboEmperor

2017-02-03, 11:08 AM

It does. This is why I recommend enlarge person on yourself first. I had it pointed out that this doesn't mean the statue made from the petrified enlarged body would stay Large, so I suggest making the effect Permanent. Once you actually convert it to a Stone Golem, the Permanency will be superfluous (and thus not vulnerable to dispelling) because Stone Golems are Large. Whatever magics go into animating it will doubtless ensure it stays the right size.

Size doesn't matter. If the Stone Golem reverts to medium size, who cares, it's not destroyed. You just lose your size related bonuses, so whether or not a DM rules you revert or not isn't that big of a deal. In fact I'd rather be a medium sized stone golem than a large one because I'm a spellcaster.

Zanos

2017-02-03, 11:09 AM

I actually spent the time to read magic jar more thoroughly, and I'm not certain his original magic jar trick actually works.

If the spell ends while you are in a host, you return to your body
It doesn't say "a host from this casting of the spell" just "a host." So if you've been doing body tricks with any sort of spells and you cast magic jar and it then ends, you go back to "your" body, no matter how many times you've jumped around.

Although I also now realize magic jar is a valid target for chain spell.

RoboEmperor

2017-02-03, 11:11 AM

Pleh

2017-02-03, 11:20 AM

Because you're not carving your body unto destruction. You are, at most, embedding some gems and other arcane stuff into it. Given the description of how stone golems are made, you are probably not even doing that. You don't need to carve your body; it's not starting as a block, so it is already in its final form factor.

Point of order. Where are you getting your facts on golem construction details?

Best I can find on the Hypertext SRD:

Construction
A stone golem’s body is chiseled from a single block of hard stone, such as granite, weighing at least 3,000 pounds. The stone must be of exceptional quality, and costs 5,000 gp. Assembling the body requires a DC 17 Craft (sculpting) check or a DC 17 Craft (stonemasonry) check.

CL 14th; Craft Construct, antimagic field, geas/quest, slow, symbol of stunning, caster must be at least 14th level; Price 90,000 gp; Cost 50,000 gp + 3,400 XP.

If we're being strict with the RAW, you cannot craft a Golem from an existing statue. You would first have to turn your body into a solid stone block and then carve the golem out (which goes back to the argument about destroying your body).

I suppose we could argue that the Transmutation to turn your body into a large block of stone should grant your body the same hitpoints and hardness of being a block of stone that size, thereby giving it the same "destruction" rules as a block of stone of the same dimensions.

RoboEmperor

2017-02-03, 11:36 AM

Ok lets summarize everything we have so far.

Color Coding
Black is RAW
Blue is Not RAW

Summary

1. Your body moves with muscles. An undead body moves with magic. A construct body also moves with magic. A dead body doesn't move.
2. A mindless body doesn't have a soul. A mindless body doesn't move. A mindless undead body or a mindless construct body does not move unless directed by its owner.
3. If a mindless body gets a soul, the soul gets to move the body. Same with an undead body. If you use Magic Jar to take control of a souless, mindless undead skeleton, you control it, not its animator.
4. Putting all this together, if a soul enters a mindless Construct Body, he can move it as his own body, no different than an undead body. Magic is merely muscles.
5. Magic Jar says if a body is destroyed, you are dead. If a body is damaged, you returned to your damaged body. It doesn't say anything about an undead body. If your body turned into a skeleton, since it's not destroyed, you return to it. Likewise if your body turned into an animated statue, you return to it and instead of controlling your muscles, you control the animation magic.

Ok so if the blue parts hold up, there is no quesiton you can turn yourself into a stone golem.

Potential problems:
1. Constructs are immune to necromancy effect. You are not targeting your new animated body with Magic Jar, you are returning to it. Worst case scenario polymorph any object your golem body into a non construct.
2. Your body is destroyed when it turned into a golem. It's actually not, just modified. Segev says use enlarge person before turning your body into stone, and then chisel it out but not enough to hit -10hp if it were alive. I personally think due to the RAW in Flesh to Stone, you will never die no matter how much damage the statue incurs until you are returned to life. So a headless statue is still alive until it turns into flesh.
3. Stone to Flesh. You will turn into a flesh golem, not your original body, because your original body is still enchanted by golem stuff, so essentially the organic muscles cannot beat the magical muscles, and if your original body dies, you are still alive, because there's still the golem enchantments that still make you a creature.

Such flesh is inert and lacking a vital life force unless a life force or magical energy is available.

Thanks to the golem enchantments magical energy is available.

ShurikVch

2017-02-03, 11:48 AM

Dysfunctions are things which don't work, not things which seem silly. This is the latter.No, not exactly.
Completely Dysfunctional Handbook [3.5] (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?267985-Completely-Dysfunctional-Handbook-3-5) is chok-full of examples which are "work, but silly"
And voluntary ability to fundamentally change your own nature on a whim is just one of them

Because the rules say it can. I didn't say it wasn't silly.Not "rules" - "rule" - singular

Energy immunity/resistance is actually not the same thing as spell immunity/resistance. The fire elemental is actually quite "vulnerable" to scorching ray; it just takes 0 damage from it, because it's immune to the damage that scorching ray does.Do you mean Fell Drain scorching ray can really kill a Fire Elemental?

Because you're not carving your body unto destruction. You are, at most, embedding some gems and other arcane stuff into it. Given the description of how stone golems are made, you are probably not even doing that. You don't need to carve your body; it's not starting as a block, so it is already in its final form factor.Stone Golem (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/golem.htm#stoneGolem):
A stone golem’s body is chiseled from a single block of hard stone, such as granite, weighing at least 3,000 pounds.For all we know, the very process of "chiseling" is as important as later spellcasting; otherwise, why it not just says to get a masterwork stone statue of required size/weight/material?
Also, Stone Golem weighs around 2,000 pounds; stone block - at least 3,000 pounds; who would survive traumatic amputation of 1/3 original body mass?

Citation needed. The spell ends, and thus the condition sustained by the spell also ends.OK!
Although this spell makes you effectively unkillable for the duration, that comes at a horrific price. You gain these benefits by using up all your remaining life force. When the spell ends, you are instantly slain and reduced to a pile of dust (as disintegrate). This effect allows no save and can't be prevented by any means, though you can be resurrected normally afterward.So, spells ends; except, caster can't be "slain" - because already killed; thus, spell ended, but didn't completed what it promised to do after the end

magicalmagicman

2017-02-03, 12:15 PM

I think destroyed means disintegrated or melted down, not damaged. So as long as some parts of your statue remain intact, it can be deformed all you want, you will still return to it. So doesn't matter how much you chisel it, it's not destroyed. You only die if your body is returned to flesh. As long as you stay a statue you can't die except by disintegration or whatnot.

Also, as someonenoone11 pointed out, as per RAW in Stone to Flesh, as long as the flesh has some sort of magical energy animating it, it's alive, so if you turn yourself into a stone golem, and someone casts stone to flesh on you, and your deformed body dies, it's ok, you're like an undead construct at that point, which is what a flesh golem is. I think only if the golem enchantments are gone do you truly die.

Segev

2017-02-03, 12:32 PM

I actually spent the time to read magic jar more thoroughly, and I'm not certain his original magic jar trick actually works.

It doesn't say "a host from this casting of the spell" just "a host." So if you've been doing body tricks with any sort of spells and you cast magic jar and it then ends, you go back to "your" body, no matter how many times you've jumped around.There is a gap: it says "the magic jar" rather than "a magic jar," so if you're in a second casting's jar, it doesn't automatically force you back into your body, allowing the second magic jar to continue its duration.

Although I also now realize magic jar is a valid target for chain spell.It is, which is quite silly. I'm not sure if you chain into multiple jars, or if you chain from one jar into multiple targets.

Point of order. Where are you getting your facts on golem construction details?

Best I can find on the Hypertext SRD:

If we're being strict with the RAW, you cannot craft a Golem from an existing statue. You would first have to turn your body into a solid stone block and then carve the golem out (which goes back to the argument about destroying your body).

I suppose we could argue that the Transmutation to turn your body into a large block of stone should grant your body the same hitpoints and hardness of being a block of stone that size, thereby giving it the same "destruction" rules as a block of stone of the same dimensions.Or we could get really, really silly and encase the stone statue in a larger block of stone and then carve the larger block of stone away from it. That would technically "chisel the body from a large block of stone."

So if we go to stick with the exact wording of the RAW, that works. IF we want to discuss "spirit of the rules," then I think the real meaning there is that it's a single piece statue, not a piecemeal one.

Of course, nothing says you can't chisel a statue from a stone that is ALMOST exactly what it will be when finished, either: chisel away your petrified clothes. There; solid block of stone from which you were chiseled out.

2. A mindless body doesn't have a soul. A mindless body doesn't move. A mindless undead body or a mindless construct body does not move unless directed by its owner.Technically not the RAW. We have examples of non-magical, living creatures with the mindless trait: vermin. Most insects, in particular. They have souls, and do operate autonomously. I would in fact suggest that mindless creatures are basically machines, with only enough judgment to adapt to immediate circumstances in pursuit of their overall "programming."

Otherwise, that seems a good summary.

No, not exactly.
Completely Dysfunctional Handbook [3.5] (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?267985-Completely-Dysfunctional-Handbook-3-5) is choke-full of examples which are "work, but silly"
And voluntary ability to fundamentally change your one nature on a whim is just one of themPedantic word quibble: you mean "chock full," not "choke full."

And I have...disagreements...with the Dysfunctional handbook for that exact reason. It tends to stop being about actual rules dysfunctions and wander into "poster's pet peeve" territory, becoming a glossary of rules people just don't like rather than rules that actually don't WORK.

Not "rules" - "rule" - singularPedantic correction accepted. Doesn't change the validity of the point.

Do you mean Fell Drain scorching ray can really kill a Fire Elemental?Only if it can deal damage to the elemental. Fell Drain explicitly requires that the target take damage from the spell before it applies its negative levels.

In a more interesting example, then, somebody with Fire Resistance 10 would not suffer negative levels from a fell drain scorching ray if the spell did 10 or fewer points of fire damage, but would if it did at least 11.

Stone Golem (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/golem.htm#stoneGolem):For all we know, the very process of "chiseling" is as important as later spellcasting; otherwise, why it not just says to get a masterwork stone statue of required size/weight/material?
Also, Stone Golem weighs around 2,000 pounds; stone block - at least 3,000 pounds; who would survive traumatic amputation of 1/3 original body mass? Good points. Guess we'll have to encase it in a 3000 lb. block of stone and chisel it out from inside.

Of course, we could also just make sure that the patient overeats until he's about 1.333333 his healthy weight, then use very careful carving techniques (possibly involving both a Heal and a Stonemasonry check) on his bloated statue to carve out the fat.

There ARE solutions!

OK!So, spells ends; except, caster can't be "slain" - because already killed; thus, spell ended, but didn't completed what it promised to do after the endCaster's body, if still extant, still immolates, I suppose. Caster is dead, so spell effect satisfied.

I'm really not sure how you expect this to make a point for you.

For argument's sake, assume I concede the point. Tell me how this impacts what we're discussing. I'm still not clear what you think is happening.

RoboEmperor

2017-02-03, 12:42 PM

Of course, we could also just make sure that the patient overeats until he's about 1.333333 his healthy weight, then use very careful carving techniques (possibly involving both a Heal and a Stonemasonry check) on his bloated statue to carve out the fat.

Where does it say you die if you get decapitated while under the effects of Flesh to Stone? I believe the RAW says that you die if you turn into flesh while decapitated, but until then, you are alive as a headless statue or a decapitated stone head, which means, you can carve your original statue body all you want, you still won't die until someone casts Stone to Flesh. After turning into a Stone Golem, your dead body is still animated via the golem enchantments so you're still not dead, you're still alive as the flesh golem.

Unless someone shows me a RAW rule saying a decapitated petrified body dies, I don't think I am wrong. Disintegrate on the other hand is for sure a kill, but not deformations or damages.

Calthropstu

2017-02-03, 12:50 PM

If I turn Willie the Wizard into a stone statue with flesh to stone, and then use stone to flesh to turn him back, Willie the Wizard is just fine (barring failed saves for shock, though that might be a 2e thing I'm remembering). The same is true if Willie (perhaps foolishly) turns himself to stone, and I turn him back.

If Willie possesses Cam the Commoner with magic jar and turns his own body to stone, then ends magic jar, there is no reason to assume that, when I cast stone to flesh on Willie, he won't be just as fine as he would have been had he turned himself to stone without being in a magic jar at the time. His spirit is preserved in the stone statue if it was in there before; clearly it is capable of occupying it.

Making the stone statue able to move doesn't stop it from being Willie's body, either.

Though I suppose there's still the question of whether using flesh to stone on Willie, then using some means of animating the statue that doesn't leave it under somebody else's control, leaves Willie in charge, or leaves Willie imprisoned in his own body that is moving mindlessly on its own.

Since the rules don't cover this, it really is a DM's call; I'd personally go for rule of cool, barring some deeper metaphysics I'd developed that would clash with said cool rule.

Thing is, as soon as you go into the statue you become mindless. A statue is incapable of housing a mind. As per the spell Flesh to Stone.

Pleh

2017-02-03, 12:53 PM

Where does it say you die if you get decapitated while under the effects of Flesh to Stone? I believe the RAW says that you die if you turn into flesh while decapitated, but until then, you are alive as a headless statue or a decapitated stone head, which means, you can carve your original statue body all you want, you still won't die until someone casts Stone to Flesh. After turning into a Stone Golem, your dead body is still animated via the golem enchantments so you're still not dead, you're still alive as the flesh golem.

Unless someone shows me a RAW rule saying a decapitated petrified body dies, I don't think I am wrong. Disintegrate on the other hand is for sure a kill, but not deformations or damages.

When magic jar is in play, we need to be careful about how the word, "dead" translates to "destroyed".

At what point is the petrified body considered "destroyed" is the real question there.

ShurikVch

2017-02-03, 12:56 PM

Where does it say you die if you get decapitated while under the effects of Flesh to Stone? I believe the RAW says that you die if you turn into flesh while decapitated, but until then, you are alive as a headless statue or a decapitated stone head, which means, you can carve your original statue body all you want, you still won't die until someone casts Stone to Flesh. After turning into a Stone Golem, your dead body is still animated via the golem enchantments so you're still not dead, you're still alive as the flesh golem.

Unless someone shows me a RAW rule saying a decapitated petrified body dies, I don't think I am wrong. Disintegrate on the other hand is for sure a kill, but not deformations or damages.It's not about "decapitation": by chiseling your petrified body, you cause it hp damage
While "how much" is unclear, 1/3 of body mass is "probably a lot"
Do you have enough hp to survive it?

Segev

2017-02-03, 12:58 PM

Thing is, as soon as you go into the statue you become mindless. A statue is incapable of housing a mind. As per the spell Flesh to Stone.It doesn't say it can't house a mind. It says you go mindless. While the body is still yours, however, YOU were not the target of the spell. You weren't around to become mindless. Congrats; go back in while it's an inanimate statue, and you're in an "And I Must Scream" scenario.

When magic jar is in play, we need to be careful about how the word, "dead" translates to "destroyed".

At what point is the petrified body considered "destroyed" is the real question there.
A good point that bears repeating, lest we forget it.

RoboEmperor

2017-02-03, 01:09 PM

Thing is, as soon as you go into the statue you become mindless. A statue is incapable of housing a mind. As per the spell Flesh to Stone.

You're wrong here.

Petrified

A petrified character has been turned to stone and is considered unconscious. If a petrified character cracks or breaks, but the broken pieces are joined with the body as he returns to flesh, he is unharmed. If the character’s petrified body is incomplete when it returns to flesh, the body is likewise incomplete and there is some amount of permanent hit point loss and/or debilitation.

Your petrified statue body houses a mind. You are unconscious.

It's not about "decapitation": by chiseling your petrified body, you cause it hp damage
While "how much" is unclear, 1/3 of body mass is "probably a lot"
Do you have enough hp to survive it?

As per the quote above, doesn't matter how much "hp damage" the statue incurs. As long as you fully repair the statue before turning it to flesh, you are fine, meaning, until you are turned to flesh, you are fine. What I'm trying to say is because the RAW specifically states you can repair the "lethal" damage before turning the statue back to flesh, it doesn't matter how much you chisel out, because as long as you can glue it back in the guy is fine, meaning the -999hp chiseled petrified body is still alive until turned back into flesh, even if it is chiseled to a thousand pieces. You cannot be killed as a statue (except by disintegration). You are killed after you return to flesh.

When magic jar is in play, we need to be careful about how the word, "dead" translates to "destroyed".

At what point is the petrified body considered "destroyed" is the real question there.

Yeah that's what we are discussing here. As per the petrified quote, I believe damage =/= destroyed. According to the quote a decapitated statue can be repaired before being brought back to life, meaning not even decapitation will "kill" the statue. I believe nothing in short of disintegration will make the statue body "destroyed". If it's smashed to pieces, as per the quote, you can theoretically put it all back together and the statue person will be unharmed when brought back to life.

So I guess destroyed = not able to be put back together = disintegration.

unseenmage

2017-02-03, 01:24 PM

This thread makes me wonder... Can this process be inverted and used offensively by some Golems? Runic Guardians maybe? Shield Guardians? Golems using Glyph Seals (MIC) perhaps?

Some way of allowing the Golem(s) to use these spells on the adventurers to the same net effect.

Just imagining a party of adventurers being forcibly Magic Jar-ed and Statue-ed about by mindless or near mindless behemoths just following their Golem obsessed master's last commands.

icefractal

2017-02-03, 01:45 PM

Suppressing immunities isn't the primary factor for whether Magic Jar works on a Golem, the question is whether constructs have "life forces":

While in the magic jar, you can sense and attack any life force within 10 feet per caster level (and on the same plane of existence). You do need line of effect from the jar to the creatures. You cannot determine the exact creature types or positions of these creatures. In a group of life forces, you can sense a difference of 4 or more Hit Dice between one creature and another and can determine whether a life force is powered by positive or negative energy. (Undead creatures are powered by negative energy. Only sentient undead creatures have, or are, souls.)
Against: Constructs are not affected by either positive or negative energy. They're neither living or undead.
For: Animate Objects mentions positive energy. Elementals do have life forces and are what a Golem is supposedly powered by.

However, now that I look at it closely, the spell header block is all kinds of messed up.
Spell Header: Target = one creature, Range = medium
Spell Text: Initial target = you / the jar, Other targets (multiple) = life forces, Range = 10 ft / level

It looks like at some point they changed their mind on how the spell works.

As for the sequence mentioned in the OP, I see one big problem - there's no reason to assume that you would control the animated body. Even if it worked, your soul would be inside the stone body in an unconscious state (or at least unable to sense anything or take actions, which sounds worse) and a mindless force of magical energy or imprisoned elemental would be controlling the statue's movements. It's not like the people whose bodies are used as material for a Flesh Golem get any control over it, for example.

If I were running it I'd probably be generous and say that you could take purely mental actions and receive info from non-physical senses. So a Psion could manifest Touchsight or something to see what was going on and then start manifesting from inside the body (although they still wouldn't control said body), which makes it kind of a Psionic Sandwich variant I guess.

RoboEmperor

2017-02-03, 02:43 PM

As for the sequence mentioned in the OP, I see one big problem - there's no reason to assume that you would control the animated body. Even if it worked, your soul would be inside the stone body in an unconscious state (or at least unable to sense anything or take actions, which sounds worse) and a mindless force of magical energy or imprisoned elemental would be controlling the statue's movements. It's not like the people whose bodies are used as material for a Flesh Golem get any control over it, for example.

If I were running it I'd probably be generous and say that you could take purely mental actions and receive info from non-physical senses. So a Psion could manifest Touchsight or something to see what was going on and then start manifesting from inside the body (although they still wouldn't control said body), which makes it kind of a Psionic Sandwich variant I guess.

You can't take purely mental actions if what you say is true. By RAW you are unconscious when inside your petrified body.

The basis of you controlling your golem body is this:
1. Undead is very similar to constructs.
2. By Magic Jar RAW, a mindless undead has no soul. You take over its body the moment your soul enters it.
3. The person who raised the mindless undead has no control over it now, just like how Awaken spells no longer allow direct control over your subject.
4. If you turn your dead body into a zombie and let magic jar end, you will return to your zombified body and take full control over it, because there is no soul or mind occupying your zombie body. It is empty.

So by Parallelism
5. If you turn your body into an alive stone golem, you will return to your statue body and take full control over it, because there is no soul or mind occupying your statue body. It is empty.

Now the point you are making icefractal is that you would return to your statue body as an unconscious soul while the earth elemental spirit controls your unconscious body.

There are two ways the DM can rule for the zombie case:
1. You are dead. A mindless souless zombie is controlling your dead body.
2. You just changed the wiring of your body. Instead of using organic actuators you use magic actuators, so you are not dead.

So likewise in the golem example
1. you return to a petrified body = unconscious soul trapped until released.
2. You just changed the wiring of your body. Instead of using organic actuators you use magic actuators, so you are not an unconscious soul trapped until released.

So is the magic that animates a corpse part of or separate from the corpse? If it's like a puppetmaster controlling a puppet zombie, then you are dead. If it's like you installing servomotors inside the corpse, then you are not dead.

Likewise is the magic that animates the golem part of or separate from the stone? If it's like a puppet master controlling a puppet rock figurine, then you are unconscious inside the stone body. If it's like you installing servomotors into the rock figurine, then you are not unconscious inside the stone body.

I don't know which is right, that's why I'm discussing, but the conversation shifted to whether chiseling your stone body will kill you or not. Is the golem enchanting magic giving life to stone, or just adding puppet strings to a body?

I guess the way I view it, zombies and golems, you just put a "socket for the soul" in them. If they remain empty, they are mindless automatons. If you put a soul in there, the soul moves the body. Your way of ruling however would be, zombies and golems, are controlled by puppetmasters, and the bodies are irrelevent, there is no "socket for the soul" in them.

I think the various RAWs around d&d suggest there are "socket for the soul" in undead and not puppetmaster strings, especially because of Awaken spells, and nonmindless undead/constructs treating "control x" as charm spells not dominate.

edit: The difference here than your flesh golem example is that in this case 100% of the stone golem's body is your statue body, where as a flesh golem is made up of a bunch of dead tissue. Now you could say that you could create a flesh golem from one colossal corpse and it still won't be the soul of the colossal corpse, but.. whatever @_@

icefractal

2017-02-03, 03:08 PM

You can't take purely mental actions if what you say is true. By RAW you are unconscious when inside your petrified body.Yup - allowing them to take mental actions would be a house-rule just to be generous in the case that somebody did this.

I guess the way I view it, zombies and golems, you just put a "socket for the soul" in them. If they remain empty, they are mindless automatons. If you put a soul in there, the soul moves the body.I don't see the animating elemental spirit as non-existent / empty. The fact that it's mindless doesn't mean it isn't a creature - see Vermin, for example. Arguably, with how Golems are described, it's a fully sentient elemental that's bound by the animating magic to mindlessly follow the commands of the creator. But it could also be the elemental equivalent of an insect.

ShurikVch

2017-02-03, 03:29 PM

Only if it can deal damage to the elemental. Fell Drain explicitly requires that the target take damage from the spell before it applies its negative levels.By Segev's words, it do 0 damage.
0 damage is still damage, thus Fell Drain...

RoboEmperor

2017-02-03, 03:53 PM

By Segev's words, it do 0 damage.
0 damage is still damage, thus Fell Drain...

By your logic, you can shoot the floor, call it a miss, and it did 0 damage, and 0 damage is still damage, so everyone in the entire universe gets fell drained. XD

Jack_Simth

2017-02-03, 06:10 PM

Segev

2017-02-03, 08:14 PM

icefractal

2017-02-03, 08:28 PM

If the answer is "yes," this procedure can work, just because the DM will make the calls to allow it. If the DM doesn't want someonenoone11 to play a stone golem with shadowcraft mage powers, this won't be allowed to work.To a degree ...
Personally though, just because I'm ok with the result doesn't mean I'd allow any possible method to get there. For example, I'm fine with someone having +1 resistance to saves permanently, but I wouldn't allow Resistance -> Astral Seed to achieve it.

Tangent: Looking at the wording of Astral Seed, the way the level loss works is rather odd. You come back as a crystal that isn't a level lower, but has an unremovable negative level. Then when you grow an organic body it is a level lower. But you have thirty days to do that.

It seems like if somebody smashed the crystal during that period and then cast True Resurrection, you wouldn't lose a level at all.

Jack_Simth

2017-02-03, 08:38 PM

icefractal

2017-02-03, 08:45 PM

You are losing a level doing it that way, compared to using Permanency.It's absolutely worse than Permanency - for that purpose. And if someone actually wanted that effect I'd just tell them to spend 3K gp in a ritual and they have it.

But using Astral Seed that way involves the most degenerate reading of "all the abilities you possessed when astral seed was manifested", which allows you to turn any temporary effect into a permanent one. Like a Persist-o-Mancer but much crazier.

Jack_Simth

2017-02-03, 08:52 PM

It's absolutely worse than Permanency - for that purpose. And if someone actually wanted that effect I'd just tell them to spend 3K gp in a ritual and they have it.

But using Astral Seed that way involves the most degenerate reading of "all the abilities you possessed when astral seed was manifested", which allows you to turn any temporary effect into a permanent one. Like a Persist-o-Mancer but much crazier.
True... the simple solution is "'The abilities you possessed when astral seed was manifested' includes 'remaining duration of the effect'"
Still useful - you can buff up when you do your save, so that you're not completely defenseless when your body finishes forming - but kills most of the exploits.

Segev

2017-02-03, 08:54 PM

To a degree ...
Personally though, just because I'm ok with the result doesn't mean I'd allow any possible method to get there. For example, I'm fine with someone having +1 resistance to saves permanently, but I wouldn't allow Resistance -> Astral Seed to achieve it.

Oh, sure, but my point is more that I think this is sufficiently in the realm of "it doesn't blatantly violate the rules" that a DM can say yay or nay without having to ALTER the RAW. It just requires interpreting it one way or another. There's nothing in the RAW that says "this absolutely doesn't work," the way, say, declaring that a wizard has True Mind Switch as a 9th level spell would. (At the least, the latter would require the wizard to research an arcane spell version of the psionic power as a new thing, if we're staying within the RAW.)

Calthropstu

2017-02-03, 09:23 PM

You're wrong here.
Your petrified statue body houses a mind. You are unconscious.

The subject, along with all its carried gear, turns into a mindless, inert statue. If the statue resulting from this spell is broken or damaged, the subject (if ever returned to its original state) has similar damage or deformities. The creature is not dead, but it does not seem to be alive either when viewed with spells such as deathwatch.

As you can see, the body is mindless. If you end the magic jar effect, you are now a mindless statue with no detectable life force.

RoboEmperor

2017-02-03, 11:46 PM

While I do enjoy the discussion, I suppose I should point out that whether this works or not for someonenoone11 and his character depends entirely on whether his DM is okay with him becoming a stone golem.

I would ask two questions:

1) Would someonenoone11's DM mind him building a stone golem and having it adventure with the party? If the answer to this is "yes," then...
2) Would someonenoone11's DM mind him BEING that stone golem, instead of merely "having" one?

If the answer is "yes," this procedure can work, just because the DM will make the calls to allow it. If the DM doesn't want someonenoone11 to play a stone golem with shadowcraft mage powers, this won't be allowed to work.

No, you aren't damaged if you take 0 damage. And since you have to be damaged by the spell...

He's just a RAW nut.
1. If it's RAW legal, he allows it after rule lawyering to be 100% sure it's RAW legal. That's why I go to the depths to get RAW proof on these forums.
2. He asks us not to break the game.

Me becoming a stone golem is not a problem, especially since I'm not optimizing anything and doing it solely for fluff. A stone golem shadowcraft mage with no access to earth spell because of the CON requirement of the feat, and having to cast everything with silent spell is the furthest thing from optimization.

As flickerdart pointed out, Constructs do have a soul and are like Vermin. My other thread pointed out half golems have the construct residing in the arm taking over the host and becoming evil.

End result, no the stone golem body isn't an empty shell like undead therefore he is not allowing it.

He said he will allow the undead version, I can turn myself into a zombie or skeleton because mindless undead has no soul and a soul can take over it.

I think we're going the wrong direction here. We should be trying to figure out how to get that unconscious soul in the statue to become conscious and animate his body XD.

As you can see, the body is mindless. If you end the magic jar effect, you are now a mindless statue with no detectable life force.

Fine, the petrified body houses a soul and turns you mindless.

ShurikVch

2017-02-04, 10:46 AM

Also your fire elemental example is kind of flawed in that there's a feat in this game that allows you to burn fire elementals to death, and no, it's not a dysfunction.It's not a dysfunction, it's specific exception

By your logic, you can shoot the floor, call it a miss, and it did 0 damage, and 0 damage is still damage, so everyone in the entire universe gets fell drained. XDAbout the "0 damage" first said Segev, not me

No, you aren't damaged if you take 0 damage. And since you have to be damaged by the spell... No; spell should "dealt damage"; RAW doesn't specify - how much; "0" is still a number

As part of the Magic Overview, Saving Throws (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#savingThrow) we have:
(emphasis added)

The printed PHB gives the example of an Elf accepting a Sleep spell.And this is why it's a dysfunction: immunity don't have anything to do with saving throws - if you immune, "natural 1" wouldn't make you more vulnerable than "natural 20", and even effects which are don't allow a saving throw still blocked by appropriate immunity
If instead Sleep use Charm Person (to which Elves are, indeed, resistant, but not immune), then it would be much more understandable
Also, by that flawed RAW, creatures can accept effects from spells, but not from any other sources