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ZiggenTheLord
2017-02-02, 09:26 PM
Is there any reason a bard has to be a musician ? Could a bard use art or acting to cast her spells or is there a reason it has to be music ?

Fri
2017-02-02, 09:31 PM
No reason. Perform: oratory is common. As well dance (Snowflake Wardance requires perform:dance)

Millstone85
2017-02-02, 09:33 PM
It makes it easier to imagine a line of magic items befitting of the class? Musical instruments of power!

Amaril
2017-02-02, 09:35 PM
I definitely don't think they have to be musicians. I don't like the default image of a bard standing in the middle of a fight and playing an instrument, anyway. At most, they should be singing as they fight. More commonly, I think of a bard's performance as short battle cries and verses, which hearken back to longer performances they've given out of battle, making their allies remember those times and fight harder for the inspiration. That being the case, there's no reason those performances couldn't be dances, inspiring speeches, monologues, stand-up comedy, or whatever.

othaero
2017-02-02, 09:57 PM
To use 3.5 as an example, all of your bardic stuff was based on any of the performance skills. So with the 3.5 ruleset if you were playing an instrument you technically couldn't attack or do anything since both hands were busy; so most players would either focus on something like singing that you could do in battle or do 2 different ones. I remember picking Perform(Stomp), that performance group that was only popular in the 90s.

So to get to 5e, all Wizards did was combine all the perform skills into one so your bard could be a magical music prodigy which i feel fits the flavor better.

Geddy2112
2017-02-02, 10:27 PM
Absolutely Not! Bardic performance is some kind of performance, but it does not have to be musical in nature.

Acting, speeches/oratory, dance, pantomime, stage magic, juggling, busking, comedy, physical stunts, storytelling, fortune telling, really any form of entertainment you might pay money for could be a bardic performance.

VoxRationis
2017-02-02, 11:07 PM
I remember a time when the party I was DMing for had a bard with Perform (dance). There was a really tense, dramatic scene involving poison-soaked zombies in an ancient crypt threatening to drag away one of the party members. The other fighter refused to leave them behind, and the two desperately hacked away at the undead... while the bard did an interpretive dance in the background.

daniel_ream
2017-02-02, 11:39 PM
Much like monks and paladins, the bard class is based on a specific historical or literary archetype (http://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/8215/what-are-the-literary-influences-of-the-dd-bard/8218#8218). Music (sung and played), storytelling and poetry is pretty much it.

Of course, in no wise were Bards ever front-line combat troops, nor even auxiliaries; even the skald was usually a retired warrior. So you're already out where the buses don't run if you play a Bard as anything but a buff, buff, buff, buff, buff the other PCs class. Ultimately you're going to have to decide which seems more bard-like to your sensibilities: a bard who draws a broadsword and begins reciting the Saga of Njall Thorgrimm the Orcreaver when the chips are down, or a bard who whips out an easel and palette and engages in a little abstract expressionism in the middle of a fight.

Although if you're going to use art as your Bard's spell focus, you may as well go full Riopelle (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean-Paul_Riopelle); whacking your opponents with paint-covered seabirds is likely to at least distract them.

WbtE
2017-02-02, 11:59 PM
even the skald was usually a retired warrior.

I know you wrote usually, but we're talking about exceptional individuals here. One of the most famous Skalds, Egil Skallagrimsson, was composing poems at the age of three and driving buses up and down "Killing Fools Avenue" from the age of seven. More bard characters should be like Egil!

Fri
2017-02-03, 02:24 AM
Arab warriors also have traditions of poetry slams in-battle. It's easy to imagine that some of them might not be warriors who are multiclassing as poets, but poets who warriors in their free time.

Mastikator
2017-02-03, 03:26 AM
Arab warriors also have traditions of poetry slams in-battle. It's easy to imagine that some of them might not be warriors who are multiclassing as poets, but poets who warriors in their free time.

It'd be funny if two warriors met and began their fight with a rap battle.

Celestia
2017-02-03, 04:02 AM
Clearly bards who focus on Perform (Mime) are all necessarily evil. *nods*

Pugwampy
2017-02-03, 06:48 AM
I allow bards to skip on musical instruments and just plain old sing to activate their Buff in my games . I suppose I would not object to speeches , stories or poetry during combat either.

I certainly dont mind having fun with an orc bard singing out loud to my players.

Old MacDonald had a fart ........fart fart fart fart .:smallbiggrin:

Phoenixguard09
2017-02-03, 08:44 AM
Clearly bards who focus on Perform (Mime) are all necessarily evil. *nods*

Is that a Standard Action reference? I do love Standard Action.

My Bards are a wide collection, but in combat it is all about the inspirational effects they have on allies, and the minor magic they can perform I guess. Those effects can be singing, chanting, music or simply shouting depending on the individual.

Outside combat, poetry slams, musical duels, storytime with friends... All fair game for me.

JAL_1138
2017-02-03, 09:27 AM
In 5e, bards can use a component pouch instead of an instrument to cast, so no music required. Fluff Song of Rest as stories instead of singing, and Bardic Inspiration as encouraging words or tactical advice.

ellindsey
2017-02-03, 10:20 AM
This thread makes me want to make a Bard whose bardic powers all use the Perform (Puppet Show) skill.

Celestia
2017-02-03, 12:46 PM
Is that a Standard Action reference? I do love Standard Action.
No? I was just making a joke about mimes being evil. :smallconfused:

Kid Jake
2017-02-03, 02:13 PM
I ran a Skald NPC in Pathfinder a year or so back that, while he did strum a guitar, relied less on the power of music and more on vivid descriptions of how his comrades were nothing but their society's whipping boys to stoke their rage. He'd sit on the sidelines telling his companions how they were all worthless pieces of **** that deserved everything bad that happened to them and urge them to just lay down and die like they were supposed to. In battle his men found strength in trying to prove him wrong, out of battle they all hated him for reminding them of their crappy lots in life.

Thrudd
2017-02-03, 07:53 PM
What is a bard, exactly? It has changed from edition to edition of D&D. What is the role or archetype they are supposed to fill? The answer will need to come from the specific setting, what bards are in that world and how magic works. Originally, D&D bards learn the magic of druids (so they cast spells exactly in the same manner as druids do, with wisdom affecting it), they also have a separate magic ability associated with their music, allowing them to potentially charm anything that can hear them play or sing. This was two different things.
In 2e, bards became a subclass of rogues, with a limited number of thief skills and also learn and cast spells like magic users, with intelligence and a spell book. Their music has the ability to alter moods and rally allies, but it is not connected to casting spells.
In 3e, bard spells officially have a necessary verbal component to their spells and use charisma to affect casting, singing, reciting or music. So no dancing, unless it is accompanied by music or singing.
In 5e, bard spell casting is still connected to charisma and their performance, it is still implied to be music or oration based on the description of bardic casting. So I'd say there needs to be an auditory component, no dance or mime. It could be oration, reciting poetry or verses instead of singing or playing music, but it has to be something that can be heard.

JAL_1138
2017-02-03, 09:59 PM
What is a bard, exactly? It has changed from edition to edition of D&D. What is the role or archetype they are supposed to fill? The answer will need to come from the specific setting, what bards are in that world and how magic works. Originally, D&D bards learn the magic of druids (so they cast spells exactly in the same manner as druids do, with wisdom affecting it), they also have a separate magic ability associated with their music, allowing them to potentially charm anything that can hear them play or sing. This was two different things.
In 2e, bards became a subclass of rogues, with a limited number of thief skills and also learn and cast spells like magic users, with intelligence and a spell book. Their music has the ability to alter moods and rally allies, but it is not connected to casting spells.
In 3e, bard spells officially have a necessary verbal component to their spells and use charisma to affect casting, singing, reciting or music. So no dancing, unless it is accompanied by music or singing.
In 5e, bard spell casting is still connected to charisma and their performance, it is still implied to be music or oration based on the description of bardic casting. So I'd say there needs to be an auditory component, no dance or mime. It could be oration, reciting poetry or verses instead of singing or playing music, but it has to be something that can be heard.

Bard spells in 5e only have a verbal component if the spell says they do, the same as any other caster (granted, I can't think of a "somatic only" or "somatic+material only" spell off the top of my head). Point being, whether there's a verbal component depends on what the spell's VSM requirements are, not on "being a bard." An observer wouldn't necessarily notice any difference in a Wizard casting Hold Person with a component pouch and a Bard casting Hold Person with a component pouch.

Thrudd
2017-02-03, 11:48 PM
Bard spells in 5e only have a verbal component if the spell says they do, the same as any other caster (granted, I can't think of a "somatic only" or "somatic+material only" spell off the top of my head). Point being, whether there's a verbal component depends on what the spell's VSM requirements are, not on "being a bard." An observer wouldn't necessarily notice any difference in a Wizard casting Hold Person with a component pouch and a Bard casting Hold Person with a component pouch.


The bard spellcasting ability description says: "Your magic comes from the heart and soul you pour into the performance of your music or oration". That would imply to me that a bard needs to perform some music or oration to cast their spells. Since there are no spells that are solely bard spells, they are going to list components for other classes, as well, so that doesn't mean anything to the bard.

It is rather open for interpretation, since they don't explicitly say bards need to perform to cast, as it did in 3e. The above description would seem to be only fluff and therefore ignorable. You could justifiably say a bard casts spells like other casters, and only needs to perform for the specific music-related abilities like inspiration and song of rest. But it is listed in the mechanics section of the class and not in the flavor text part, so they might have meant it as more than fluff.

Bohandas
2017-02-04, 01:16 AM
Much like monks and paladins, the bard class is based on a specific historical or literary archetype (http://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/8215/what-are-the-literary-influences-of-the-dd-bard/8218#8218). Music (sung and played), storytelling and poetry is pretty much it.

Perhaps initially in the Gygax era, but I think since then it's both influenced and been influenced by other more recent archetypes. I've always seen it as very similar to the protagonist from Spellsinger (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spellsinger) (though with many important differences as well)

And the backstory to the Seeker of the Song bard prestige class:

"Beyond magic, beyond sound, beyond good or evil, lies music
so profound and powerful that even deities quake at its sound.
This primal music—of unknown origin and with no limit
to its power—is incomprehensible to the mortal ear. To
some who hear a fragment of this music, it becomes beauty
incarnate, and they devote their lives to its discovery. These
seekers wield the power of music in ways that amaze even
the most skilled bards...

...

...The song never leaves a seeker, and its power can have
strange effects on their souls. Some retire from society,
seeking the silence of distant monasteries or mountaintops
from which to better concentrate on the music they once
heard. Others remain unchanged to outward appearances,
yet the music remains in the back of their minds at all times.
Some talk to any who will listen about the importance and
beauty of the primal music, while others cannot seem to
find the words to express what this music means to them
or to the world.

Is awfully similar to the plot of the Tenacious D song "Tribute" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_lK4cX5xGiQ#t=01m10s)

Cespenar
2017-02-06, 07:43 AM
The most recent one that I played was basically a storyteller. In battle, he used gallant battlecries to buff and insults/taunts to debuff. Out of battle, he told the story of his earlier quests, embellishing and exaggerating a step each time.

Another idea I had, who probably is done by others already, was a skald who makes basic yet catchy beats in battle (like We Will Rock You) by banging together his mace and shield.

Other art media, hmm. Let me think.

A painter would be cool in theory, but probably somewhat hard to fluff in battle. Maybe she would draw stuff on the ground with his rapier/staff/whatever and they come alive?

A sculptor may have made little clay statuettes in relevant shapes and can cast her magic from those.

A poet is pretty easy.

Stealth Marmot
2017-02-06, 08:18 AM
A bard's class abilities are based on the Perform skill, and the Perform skill takes many forms.

Which can lead to some impressive interpretations that technically would still fly.

(According to the Book of Erotic Fantasy, sex is a Perform skill. No more need be said, imaginations will take care of it.)

In all seriousness you can get some great interpretations of the perform skills as an inspirational tool. The Evangelist class is one of my favorite concepts since it takes the emotional and zealous speech of those evangelists you see on television in order to whip your fighter into kicking more orc butt, instead of say, putting money into buying some preacher a new jet.

Mmagsgreen
2017-02-13, 10:34 AM
Obviously, the next bard I play will need to do Performance: Stand-up.

CharonsHelper
2017-02-13, 10:52 AM
Obviously, the next bard I play will need to do Performance: Stand-up.

Wakka Wakka Wakka!!

Max_Killjoy
2017-02-13, 11:00 AM
Am I alone in finding the "magical bard" with "buffs and debuffs from playing/singing/poems/whatever" a facepalm-worthy concept?

I don't mean the concept of a poet-warrior or poet-"rogue", or a character who likes to sing or tell stories as part of their character concept, or even someone who fills the social role of a the skald or bard or troubadour.

I specifically mean the "my singing and playing are magical and have combat effects!" thing.

Stealth Marmot
2017-02-13, 11:11 AM
Obviously, the next bard I play will need to do Performance: Stand-up.

With jokes so bad they cause physical damage.

daniel_ream
2017-02-13, 11:24 AM
Am I alone in finding the "magical bard" with "buffs and debuffs from playing/singing/poems/whatever" a facepalm-worthy concept?

Yes. Alan Dean Foster wrote a series of moderately successful books on the premise, that have been optioned for a film.

Max_Killjoy
2017-02-13, 11:26 AM
Yes. Alan Dean Foster wrote a series of moderately successful books on the premise, that have been optioned for a film.

1) that's hardly a high bar for "not facepalm worthy". :smallwink:

2) see clarification for above.

cobaltstarfire
2017-02-13, 12:03 PM
The one character I played that was a bard (but not in a D&D game) was just able to activate magic with sound applied in particular ways, not much different from a wizard intoning words of power for a spell really.

She could whistle a jaunty little song and levitate objects, or attack at range with a single sharp whistle, or summon a shield with the correct pluck of her lutes strings. When originally describing her powers someone else showed me a clip from Kung Fu Hustle (https://youtu.be/SsI5B6QQqIk) which did a decent job of illustrating some of the ideas I had for her abilities. She never really buffed anyone with song or anything like that though, and her main purpose was to gather information, sometimes by being a bard, and sometimes by being a sneak. I could see her manipulating peoples state of mind with music though, as it's possible to do that in real life (though not easy), that's where the "magical" part comes in I suppose.

My favorite image of a "Bard" are the Harpers from Dragonriders of Pern. They are all musicians of some sort, but the Harper Hall also tends to behave like a communication/spy network. It had a subtle influence on politics on Pern thanks to the fact that most holds have a Harper to teach and entertain. (and who wants to become the butt end of a joke in a Harpers song?)

In that way I tend to think of the "performance" part of what a Bard is doing shouldn't be taken at face value.

daniel_ream
2017-02-13, 12:26 PM
1) that's hardly a high bar for "not facepalm worthy".

All of D&D is "facepalm-worthy", then, being an inchoate mashup of random things the designers happened to like. It's been that way since the beginning. Picking out bards to be perturbed by seems oddly specific.

Thrudd
2017-02-13, 12:27 PM
Am I alone in finding the "magical bard" with "buffs and debuffs from playing/singing/poems/whatever" a facepalm-worthy concept?

I don't mean the concept of a poet-warrior or poet-"rogue", or a character who likes to sing or tell stories as part of their character concept, or even someone who fills the social role of a the skald or bard or troubadour.

I specifically mean the "my singing and playing are magical and have combat effects!" thing.

Not a big fan of the concept, either. Magical music I can see a niche for, but music that is used in combat, often while the person is also fighting, not so much. Especially in WotC editions of D&D, they are far too lax on how many and what sort of things characters can do while they are supposedly engaged in combat and being threatened by deadly attacks.

I wouldn't quite say "facepalm worthy", I mean it isn't out of the realm of imagination that magic might be activated by singing or music, nor that such magic could help out warriors going into combat or intimidate enemies (I love "Ride of the Rohirrim" from RotK: "...and they sang as they slew and the sound of their singing came even unto the walls of the city."). I just don't like exact way it's been implemented and made into an archetype for the current generation of D&D gamers, who now equate the term "bard" with someone who "buffs and debuffs". I get annoyed at the general misuse and redefining of real/historical terms in games and people who think that a game isn't complete without this or that specific character concept being available.

But talking about what one specific game calls "bard" and how that game's rules regarding their activity can be interpreted isn't really affected by that.

Max_Killjoy
2017-02-13, 12:33 PM
Not a big fan of the concept, either. Magical music I can see a niche for, but music that is used in combat, often while the person is also fighting, not so much. Especially in WotC editions of D&D, they are far too lax on how many and what sort of things characters can do while they are supposedly engaged in combat and being threatened by deadly attacks.

I wouldn't quite say "facepalm worthy", I mean it isn't out of the realm of imagination that magic might be activated by singing or music, nor that such magic could help out warriors going into combat or intimidate enemies (I love "Ride of the Rohirrim" from RotK: "...and they sang as they slew and the sound of their singing came even unto the walls of the city."). I just don't like exact way it's been implemented and made into an archetype for the current generation of D&D gamers, who now equate the term "bard" with someone who "buffs and debuffs". I get annoyed at the general misuse and redefining of real/historical terms in games and people who think that a game isn't complete without this or that specific character concept being available.

But talking about how what one specific game calls "bard" and how that game's rules regarding their activity can be interpreted isn't really affected by that.

I think we're close to the same page, then -- especially the part that I bolded in the quote above.

See also, "druid", "paladin", etc. Or weapon and armor names.




All of D&D is "facepalm-worthy", then, being an inchoate mashup of random things the designers happened to like. It's been that way since the beginning.


You will find little disagreement from me on that statement.




Picking out bards to be perturbed by seems oddly specific.


It might be, but I've been asked not to make broad statements from specific starting point in narrowly defined threads.

JAL_1138
2017-02-13, 03:29 PM
I specifically mean the "my singing and playing are magical and have combat effects!" thing.

It goes back to at least the Silmarillion (edit: in fantasy fiction). A great deal of the magic in it was musical in nature--including the creation of the world--and Luthien had a magic duel with Sauron (and won) where her spells were cast via song.

She also used musical magic to charm Morgoth himself and his entire court to sleep, so she and Beren could cut a Silmaril from his crown.

EDIT: And there's plenty of examples in myths and legends of various cultures. The Pied Piper comes to mind, but the tradition goes back further than that. Check out the TVTropes page on Magic Music (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MagicMusic) for examples going back to the Bronze Age.

Tiktakkat
2017-02-13, 05:37 PM
It goes back to at least the Silmarillion (edit: in fantasy fiction). . . .

EDIT: And there's plenty of examples in myths and legends of various cultures. The Pied Piper comes to mind, but the tradition goes back further than that. Check out the TVTropes page on Magic Music (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MagicMusic) for examples going back to the Bronze Age.

In particular, it goes back to Finnish mythology with Lemminkäinen, whose name is not-coincidentally similar to Mordenkainen (of faithful hound and disjunction fame), one of Gygax's PCs.
And then add in the specific Celtic traditions that provided the name "bard", in particular the story of Cairbre writing the first satire which caused Bres, the half-fomorian king at the time, to lose his kingship, and you pretty much have all the core components of a class whose magic causes "buffs and debuffs from playing/singing/poems/whatever".

Max_Killjoy
2017-02-13, 07:40 PM
In particular, it goes back to Finnish mythology with Lemminkäinen, whose name is not-coincidentally similar to Mordenkainen (of faithful hound and disjunction fame), one of Gygax's PCs.
And then add in the specific Celtic traditions that provided the name "bard", in particular the story of Cairbre writing the first satire which caused Bres, the half-fomorian king at the time, to lose his kingship, and you pretty much have all the core components of a class whose magic causes "buffs and debuffs from playing/singing/poems/whatever".

Not to argue, but to clarify -- were these combat effects?

And couldn't the social effects of bardic praise and ridicule be just that -- social, rather than magic?

Morty
2017-02-13, 07:49 PM
The Bard class is somewhat similar to the Barbarian class in this way. The Bard, despite its name, can't cover a travelling musician who doesn't use magic. Such a character would be better-served by a Rogue who specializes in social skills. Just like the Barbarian class can't cover an actual barbarian (that is, someone living outside what's considered "civilization") unless they're also a raging berserker.

johnbragg
2017-02-13, 09:02 PM
Am I alone in finding the "magical bard" with "buffs and debuffs from playing/singing/poems/whatever" a facepalm-worthy concept?

I don't mean the concept of a poet-warrior or poet-"rogue", or a character who likes to sing or tell stories as part of their character concept, or even someone who fills the social role of a the skald or bard or troubadour.

I specifically mean the "my singing and playing are magical and have combat effects!" thing.

I think so. What I mean is, lots of historical armies have employed musicians in combat, sometimes just as a means of communication, but often to boost friendly morale and break enemy morale. Youtube up some bagpipe music, bodran drumming just from my mostly-Irish background. Various other cultures have had similar setups.

I don't think it's that difficult to comprehend if you've ever been to a concert and gotten caught up in the emotion of it. Or even a game with thousands of other people cheering and chanting along.

I think it's entirely reasonable that, in a magical universe where mind over matter is an axiom, that music has crunch effects.

(Now, using this explanation would lead to a very different bard class than the ones in most of the books--something a lot more like the Marshal and a lot less useful for dungeoncrashing and dragonslaing--and with only a handful of options--Song of Fear, Song of Bravery, Song of Charming, Song of Sleep, Song of Healing, Song of Irresistible Dancing. But that's a different topic.)

GungHo
2017-02-14, 09:23 AM
The Bard class is somewhat similar to the Barbarian class in this way. The Bard, despite its name, can't cover a travelling musician who doesn't use magic. Such a character would be better-served by a Rogue who specializes in social skills. Just like the Barbarian class can't cover an actual barbarian (that is, someone living outside what's considered "civilization") unless they're also a raging berserker.

IKR? When's the last time you saw a Cleric file something? Yes, I know.

Max_Killjoy
2017-02-14, 09:53 AM
I think so. What I mean is, lots of historical armies have employed musicians in combat, sometimes just as a means of communication, but often to boost friendly morale and break enemy morale. Youtube up some bagpipe music, bodran drumming just from my mostly-Irish background. Various other cultures have had similar setups.

I don't think it's that difficult to comprehend if you've ever been to a concert and gotten caught up in the emotion of it. Or even a game with thousands of other people cheering and chanting along.

I think it's entirely reasonable that, in a magical universe where mind over matter is an axiom, that music has crunch effects.

(Now, using this explanation would lead to a very different bard class than the ones in most of the books--something a lot more like the Marshal and a lot less useful for dungeoncrashing and dragonslaing--and with only a handful of options--Song of Fear, Song of Bravery, Song of Charming, Song of Sleep, Song of Healing, Song of Irresistible Dancing. But that's a different topic.)

It makes more sense for an army unit to have a few musicians, and maybe even have some general effects on morale, etc.

My comment was more regarding the notion of such a thing in a group of 3-6 adventurers, and one of them deciding that they GOTTA SING! when combat starts, instead of picking up their damn sword and getting to it.

JAL_1138
2017-02-14, 11:00 AM
It makes more sense for an army unit to have a few musicians, and maybe even have some general effects on morale, etc.

My comment was more regarding the notion of such a thing in a group of 3-6 adventurers, and one of them deciding that they GOTTA SING! when combat starts, instead of picking up their damn sword and getting to it.

Is it that much sillier than the wizard hauling out his books and flipping through the pages until he finds the right text to read aloud and weird hand gestures to make, instead of "picking up his damn sword and getting to it"...?

Max_Killjoy
2017-02-14, 11:15 AM
Is it that much sillier than the wizard hauling out his books and flipping through the pages until he finds the right text to read aloud and weird hand gestures to make, instead of "picking up his damn sword and getting to it"...?


The wizard, if run and depicted with that aesthetic, has the potential to be just as silly.

"This rain is terrible... can someone hold their cloak over me while I find the right page for Fireball and and cast against those ogres?"

JAL_1138
2017-02-14, 11:17 AM
The wizard, if run and depicted with that aesthetic, has the potential to be just as silly.

"This rain is terrible... can someone hold their cloak over me while I find the right page for Fireball and and cast against those ogres?"

Perhaps you're thinking of the bard with the silliest aesthetic, then.

Picture a Maori warrior doing a haka dance/chant, with eldritch glowing energy building up on his hands as he does, then releasing it with a final shout that unleashes a Shatter on his enemies--or on some obstacle in his path, smashing a stone door to gravel with the force of his shout.

Max_Killjoy
2017-02-14, 11:20 AM
Perhaps you're thinking of the bard with the silliest aesthetic, then.

Picture a Maori warrior doing a haka dance/chant, with eldritch glowing energy building up on his hands as he does, then releasing it with a final shout that unleashes a Shatter on his enemies--or on some obstacle in his path, smashing a stone door to gravel with the force of his shout.

Why aren't his enemies firing missile weapons at him while he's doing this? Or at least finding cover?

GungHo
2017-02-14, 11:36 AM
Why aren't his enemies firing missile weapons at him while he's doing this? Or at least finding cover?

Why don't they just shoot at the Sisqo-themed bard singing the Thong Song? Or the wizard speaking in tongues and drawing lines in the air?

Max_Killjoy
2017-02-14, 12:02 PM
Why don't they just shoot at the Sisqo-themed bard singing the Thong Song? Or the wizard speaking in tongues and drawing lines in the air?


I don't know. They probably should be.

oudeis
2017-02-14, 02:28 PM
Maori haka are awesome, and I plan to use the audio from one of the All Blacks' performances as background in a tabletop encounter; however, from what I understand they were done before battle. As Max said, when the combat starts, you grab a weapon and start smiting. Martial music, songs, poetry, and chants all have basis in history but the idea of some troubadour stepping center stage for his spotlight solo is just silly.

In the excellent Sharpe's Battle there's an almost poetic passage where Sergeant Patrick Harper and two other Irish soldiers go into battle-frenzy and start smashing their way through the French ranks while chanting the Táin Bó Cúailnge (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Táin_Bó_Cúailnge) in Gaelic. I don't know how realistic that is but it's a lot easier for me to accept, both mechanically and conceptually.

Damn, did Bernard Cornwell make that scene sing (no pun intended).

daniel_ream
2017-02-14, 02:45 PM
I don't know. They probably should be.

And are, in any version of D&D I'm familiar with. "Protect the glass cannons" is standard dungeon party formation.


the idea of some troubadour stepping center stage for his spotlight solo is just silly.

Nonsense.

http://static4.businessinsider.com/image/555b3d82eab8ea363a891f73-1190-625/the-man-behind-the-awesome-flamethrower-guitar-player-in-mad-max-fury-road-is-a-popular-australian-musician.jpg

Tiktakkat
2017-02-14, 03:35 PM
Not to argue, but to clarify -- were these combat effects?

Some were.
But then, not all of a bards abilities are fully combat related.


And couldn't the social effects of bardic praise and ridicule be just that -- social, rather than magic?

The satire caused Bres' face to break out in boils.
That's . . . pretty magical.
So while they caused a direct social effect, they made him disfigured and thus ineligible to be king, it clearly required "magic" to initiate.

Which is essentially the defining feature of most of the magic in such legends, even that of outright "wizards".
Very rarely are the spellchuckers running around hurling fireballs left and right.
Instead they are invoking curses, setting up "dooms", putting people to sleep (other than on a battlefield), and other such things, and not waving their hands and blowing things up, or forcing people to kneel in front of armies by dominating them then and there, or anything of that sort.
(As others have noted if wizards were more "realistic".)

Bicorn
2017-02-14, 03:42 PM
In real life magic both occult and divine has aways been associeted with music and art.

Think of one faith that don't use msuic in their rituals, YOU CAN'T! From the latin choirs to the tribal drums all forms of faith use music.

Music has aways been linked with magic that is why it such an easier way to represent magic in a game, much easier than say "oratory".

It's also easier to do in a fighting scenario than using dance for exemple.

CharonsHelper
2017-02-14, 04:14 PM
In real life magic both occult and divine has aways been associeted with music and art.

Think of one faith that don't use msuic in their rituals, YOU CAN'T!

If you include historical denominations - the early Quakers didn't allow music in church as a part of distancing themselves from The Church of England.

daniel_ream
2017-02-15, 03:08 AM
Think of one faith that don't use msuic in their rituals, YOU CAN'T!

It'll get the thread closed if I list them, but I can think of at least three non-trivial sects/religions that ban music, either in general or as part of worship.

Storm_Of_Snow
2017-02-15, 08:06 AM
The satire caused Bres' face to break out in boils.
That's . . . pretty magical.
So while they caused a direct social effect, they made him disfigured and thus ineligible to be king, it clearly required "magic" to initiate.

While some effects are obviously only magical, other bardic abilities could be completely mundane in nature, or mundane with some mystical mixed in - for example, the fascinate ability is effectively used by Eddie Valiant when he performs his song and dance routine in Who Framed Roger Rabbit? to defeat the weasels, and the Lancre Morris men perform the Stick and Bucket dance in Lords and Ladies to render the Elves incapable of fighting back - in both cases, there's certainly some mundane ability, with some magic (cartoon logic and the Discworld's natural background thaumic field) involved as well.


In real life magic both occult and divine has aways been associeted with music and art.

Think of one faith that don't use msuic in their rituals, YOU CAN'T! From the latin choirs to the tribal drums all forms of faith use music.

Music has aways been linked with magic that is why it such an easier way to represent magic in a game, much easier than say "oratory".

It's also easier to do in a fighting scenario than using dance for exemple.
Given arcane magic has a lot of spells with somatic components to manipulate and redirect the flows of energy, is it that much of a stretch to say Bardic magic has something similar, which could also be turned into a fighting style like Capoeira, or Water Fighting from Game of Thrones (as well as the regular standbys like Hollywood-style swashbuckling, Wire-Fu et al)? In fact, it's probably only the next step on from stage magicians using gestures and movement to do things like diverting their audience's attention from what they're doing with their other hand.

johnbragg
2017-02-15, 10:40 AM
in both cases, there's certainly some mundane ability, with some magic (cartoon logic and the Discworld's natural background thaumic field) involved as well.

See that's something that always bugs me in mundanes vs casters arguments. We're talking about D&D worlds, which ALL have "natural background thaumic fields" or some equivalent. Somehow people have the idea that a person pointing his finger and shooting eldritch energy at a bunch of orcs is a reasonable thing to do in a fight, but somehow taking out a fiddle and playing "DEvil Went Down to Georgia" can't possibly inspire your allies (crunch +1 to attack and damage rolls), or playing Black Sabbath couldn't possibly intimidate your enemies (crunch cause fear spell). (And as your Perform check gets close to the 30s, yes you get the electronic studio effects because you're just that awesome.)

This also ties into Xykon's power-is-power speech from when Dark V shows up. ECL is a reflection of the thaumic field of the D&D-verse being distorted by your awesomeness, shoving physics out of the way.

PArt of it is that, in 3.5, Bardic inspiration is one of the few magical buffs that is (mostly) concentration-based rather than fire-and-forget. By my logic, the bard should be a lot more of a caster and a lot less of a melee guy, closer to the late 3.5 fixed-list casters than the sorta-gestalt rogue/gish that he or she is.

Storm_Of_Snow
2017-02-15, 11:59 AM
Probably because there's few if any Gandalf, Merlin or Harry Potter hero equivalents in media for a Bard - more usually they're the comedy sidekick of the hero, or a roaming lothario swashbuckler-rogue type who also happens to be able to play an instrument, and even then, it's likely their instrument that's enchanted to give any magical effects, rather than their own magical abilities channelling through an unenchanted instrument.

But I'd personally say a bards abilities are more in the performer reacting to their audience - basically, some rehearsal and a lot of improvisation.

As for types of music and their effects, what about a little Rammstein for Pyrotechnics? :smallwink:

JAL_1138
2017-02-15, 01:25 PM
While some effects are obviously only magical, other bardic abilities could be completely mundane in nature, or mundane with some mystical mixed in - for example, the fascinate ability is effectively used by Eddie Valiant when he performs his song and dance routine in Who Framed Roger Rabbit? to defeat the weasels, and the Lancre Morris men perform the Stick and Bucket dance in Lords and Ladies to render the Elves incapable of fighting back - in both cases, there's certainly some mundane ability, with some magic (cartoon logic and the Discworld's natural background thaumic field) involved as well.


Given arcane magic has a lot of spells with somatic components to manipulate and redirect the flows of energy, is it that much of a stretch to say Bardic magic has something similar, which could also be turned into a fighting style like Capoeira, or Water Fighting from Game of Thrones (as well as the regular standbys like Hollywood-style swashbuckling, Wire-Fu et al)? In fact, it's probably only the next step on from stage magicians using gestures and movement to do things like diverting their audience's attention from what they're doing with their other hand.


The implication with the Lancre Morris Men is that they "render the elves incapable of fighting back" by bludgeoning their brains out with the sticks they use in their Morris dance, which is a bit closer to a martial art the way it's performed on the Disk. :smalltongue:

Bohandas
2017-02-15, 03:25 PM
Probably because there's few if any Gandalf, Merlin or Harry Potter hero equivalents in media for a Bard - more usually they're the comedy sidekick of the hero, or a roaming lothario swashbuckler-rogue type who also happens to be able to play an instrument, and even then, it's likely their instrument that's enchanted to give any magical effects, rather than their own magical abilities channelling through an unenchanted instrument.

Or occasionally their guitar pick (Tenacious D and the Pick of Destiny)

Or the score itself, unrelated to who's playing it (Read or Die, Tenacious D: Tribute, the Worldwide Recorder Concert episode of Southpark, and cthulhu mythos works relating to Hastur), which honestly makes the most sense out of all of these.

Tiktakkat
2017-02-15, 03:37 PM
While some effects are obviously only magical, other bardic abilities could be completely mundane in nature, or mundane with some mystical mixed in - for example, the fascinate ability is effectively used by Eddie Valiant when he performs his song and dance routine in Who Framed Roger Rabbit? to defeat the weasels, and the Lancre Morris men perform the Stick and Bucket dance in Lords and Ladies to render the Elves incapable of fighting back - in both cases, there's certainly some mundane ability, with some magic (cartoon logic and the Discworld's natural background thaumic field) involved as well.

The Eddie Valiant and the weasels thing is heavily mystical (the vulnerability of toons to certain things), combined with a hidden, somewhat mystical, ability of Eddie (he really did have a Sense of Humor).
And yes, the effects of the milieu are important too - which is why no one in the "real world" can invoke satires that make people's face break out in boils.
(Although my friend did try the "shave and a haircut" thing on me to "prove" I was toon. Unfortunately it backfired on him when I resisted and he was compelled to add the knocks for "two bits". I still wonder about him . . .)

Bohandas
2017-02-15, 05:46 PM
See that's something that always bugs me in mundanes vs casters arguments. We're talking about D&D worlds, which ALL have "natural background thaumic fields" or some equivalent. Somehow people have the idea that a person pointing his finger and shooting eldritch energy at a bunch of orcs is a reasonable thing to do in a fight, but somehow taking out a fiddle and playing "DEvil Went Down to Georgia" can't possibly inspire your allies (crunch +1 to attack and damage rolls), or playing Black Sabbath couldn't possibly intimidate your enemies (crunch cause fear spell). (And as your Perform check gets close to the 30s, yes you get the electronic studio effects because you're just that awesome.)

The problem with the way D&D does it is that most songs are way too long. How many songs do you know that can be played in six seconds. Even for jingles that's pushing it.

johnbragg
2017-02-15, 07:41 PM
The problem with the way D&D does it is that most songs are way too long. How many songs do you know that can be played in six seconds. Even for jingles that's pushing it.

This is a very good point. My vague counter-example is the rush of excitement in a wrestling crowd when the iconic first note/sound of a big star's theme music hitting. I can make some pretty convincing arguments for bardic music-magic, but it's all slowtime magic compared to combat rounds.

Bohandas
2017-02-15, 10:29 PM
You know what's messed up? The spell that conjures up purple rain (Evil Weather, Corrupt 8, BOVD pg 94) isn't a bard spell.

Fri
2017-02-16, 01:24 AM
It's not technically bard, but slightly related.

Dragoon in Final Fantasy XIV MMO have a skill called battle litany, it increases critical hit rate for the whole party.

So I put a macro whenever mt use that skill. "Chanting Battle Litany: We will, we will rock you...!"

I just thought that's exactly what a battle litany would be :smallbiggrin:

Storm_Of_Snow
2017-02-16, 03:52 AM
The implication with the Lancre Morris Men is that they "render the elves incapable of fighting back" by bludgeoning their brains out with the sticks they use in their Morris dance, which is a bit closer to a martial art the way it's performed on the Disk. :smalltongue:
Sorry, but the Elves are mesmerised by their dancing, which is how the Morris men are able to bludgeon them to death.


The Eddie Valiant and the weasels thing is heavily mystical (the vulnerability of toons to certain things), combined with a hidden, somewhat mystical, ability of Eddie (he really did have a Sense of Humor).

I wouldn't say a sense of humour's mystical - Eddie just stopped using his after his brother died at the hands of a toon.

I guess another thing to consider is that some bards might be able to do something with natural skill, while others might need mystical help to produce the same effect - the technological version would be where some singers can absolutely captivate an audience with just their voice, while which ever talentless no-hoper that normally couldn't carry a tune in a bucket that Simon Cowell picks to have their name on the Christmas number one album, and who'll vanish roughly five weeks later, gets autotuned to the nth degree . :smallamused:

Thrudd
2017-02-16, 10:23 AM
This is a very good point. My vague counter-example is the rush of excitement in a wrestling crowd when the iconic first note/sound of a big star's theme music hitting. I can make some pretty convincing arguments for bardic music-magic, but it's all slowtime magic compared to combat rounds.

Lol...it's a bard that only knows the first three notes of "Master of Puppets", and just plays that over and over as his combat "song". But it totally pumps everyone up.

DUN dun dun DUUUUN.

JBPuffin
2017-02-16, 11:31 AM
In one of my stories, I had a combat artist - she drew with a stylus, then her artwork came to life and she controlled in telepathically. That is, until she multiclassed into soulknife...

I also had the classic sing-and-stab guy with a keytar-sword; he also multiclassed, but used his primary ability more than the other.

They were also siblings...

Tiktakkat
2017-02-16, 01:23 PM
I wouldn't say a sense of humour's mystical - Eddie just stopped using his after his brother died at the hands of a toon.

In the context of the milieu of the movie, it pretty much is. Otherwise everyone would be an R.K. Maroon, and Roger wouldn't be so amazed at what Eddie is capable of when he lets his sense of humor loose.

Indeed, it even seems a tad mystical in the real world sometimes.

Mutazoia
2017-02-17, 04:11 AM
Traditionally, a bard was a kind of Celtic lore master and teacher, in a time where very few people outside of the nobility, could read. Knowledge was passed from generation to generation orally, and the best way to do this was either with a catchy tune, or a story in the from of an epic poem.

So, although it is traditional for a Bard to be able to play any musical instrument, they can also inspire through voice alone (never underestimate the power of a rousing speech before a battle (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-yZNMWFqvM)).

Stealth Marmot
2017-02-18, 12:23 AM
The problem with the way D&D does it is that most songs are way too long. How many songs do you know that can be played in six seconds. Even for jingles that's pushing it.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWi5jdgTUJs

CharonsHelper
2017-02-18, 12:31 AM
The problem with the way D&D does it is that most songs are way too long. How many songs do you know that can be played in six seconds. Even for jingles that's pushing it.

Well - it's still 4 seconds too long - though you could probably use a faster tempo (though it would require changing one word).


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8zqSSJSQlWo

Mutazoia
2017-02-19, 12:53 AM
Did someone mention songs that are too long?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0U2zJOryHKQ

Fiery Diamond
2017-02-19, 04:43 PM
Did someone mention songs that are too long?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0U2zJOryHKQ

So there's a Mandela Effect thing with that song. Look at the title of the video, and then listen to the song in the video. Notice: "Song that never ends" vs "Song that doesn't end." That's the big part that I think many people have. I, personally, also have other parts that I remember wrongly. As I (mis)remember it, it goes:

This is the song that never ends
It just goes on and on my friends
Some people started singing it not knowing what it was
And they just kept on singing it forever just because
(and then it loops)

Mutazoia
2017-02-21, 01:10 AM
Well - it's still 4 seconds too long - though you could probably use a faster tempo (though it would require changing one word).

that's still too long....


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BuLw2z8Jm98

Bohandas
2017-03-23, 05:30 PM
Not a big fan of the concept, either. Magical music I can see a niche for, but music that is used in combat, often while the person is also fighting, not so much. Especially in WotC editions of D&D, they are far too lax on how many and what sort of things characters can do while they are supposedly engaged in combat and being threatened by deadly attacks.

It works more realistically with non-instrument perform skills. I think the most realistic in combat would be (in descending order):

Dance (compare Capoeira)
Buffoonery (compare Zui Quan)
Chanting
Oratory
Human beatbox
song


Or occasionally their guitar pick (Tenacious D and the Pick of Destiny)

Or the score itself, unrelated to who's playing it (Read or Die, Tenacious D: Tribute, the Worldwide Recorder Concert episode of Southpark, and cthulhu mythos works relating to Hastur), which honestly makes the most sense out of all of these.

or a belt (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UyhZr5_L7cc) (edit: warning: I forget whether this particular clip has coarse language or not, but it's from ATHF so it might). I forgot that one the first time.

Pauly
2017-03-23, 07:21 PM
If you look at some of the Renaissance artists, there's a few that would translate into Bards in D+D terms. Caravaggio in particular springs to mind. Maybe in combat he could be describing how epic his painting of this scene isgoing to be.

LibraryOgre
2017-03-27, 02:20 PM
You know what's messed up? The spell that conjures up purple rain (Evil Weather, Corrupt 8, BOVD pg 94) isn't a bard spell.

You hear that sobbing?

This is what it sounds like when doves cry.

Tiktik Ironclaw
2017-03-28, 08:14 AM
Personally, I rather like the idea of a bard jamming on a magical electric guitar to inspire his allies, but my rocker bards (as opposed to folk bards) are able to cause sonic explosions, deafen people, and, at 18th-level, outright cause people to bow down before you. And all the abilities are named after Rock songs.