What is the logic behind stat increasing items like gauntlets of ogre power

[holywhippet]

I was surprised when I checked the magical items and found that most stat boosting magical items set a stat to a certain value. Like gauntlets and belts that increase strength set it to a certain value rather than boosting it. That kind of item was reasonable in 2nd edition where stats weren't quite as important. But I can't think why they went back to it in 5th edition.

Does anyone know the reasoning the developers were using?

[hymer]

Does anyone know the reasoning the developers were using?

I think they reasoned thusly about the 'set to 19' items: These will allow a character to function at quite a high level with the given ability score regardless of what the stat was initially, but not at the same level as someone who invested fully in it. This way, the item type does not become a necessity for a character to function with a given primary stat, but merely a boon to those who can use it.

[Contrast]

Clearly a game balance issue where they didn't want to have to worry about people stacking three items which all boost strength on one character and then drinking some potion of strength. I believe thats explicitly the sort of behaviour they were trying to avoid this edition.

That said, Gauntlets of Ogre Power make you as strong as an ogre not 'as strong as yourself plus a bit more' so there is an internal logic there as well.

[Lonely Tylenol]

I was surprised when I checked the magical items and found that most stat boosting magical items set a stat to a certain value. Like gauntlets and belts that increase strength set it to a certain value rather than boosting it. That kind of item was reasonable in 2nd edition where stats weren't quite as important. But I can't think why they went back to it in 5th edition.

Does anyone know the reasoning the developers were using?

Because this game is more "2nd edition" than the other editions.

Think about it this way: in 3e and 3.5e, just the bog-standard +6 primary stat item and +5 book together gave you a combined +11 to a stat. Pair this with the 18 allowed by point buy, the possible +2 racial, and the +5 from levels, a 20th-level character could reasonably expect to have 36 in their primary stat, or a +13 on all relevant rolls! And on top of that, BAB scales with level (from half to full), as do saves (2 + half for good, a third for poor) and skill checks (3 + level for good and half that rounded down for poor, if of course you invested), which meant the numbers bloated in a huge way). And this isn't including enhancement, competence, circumstance, luck, resistance, inherent, deflection, divine, profane, natural armor, sanctified, and untyped bonuses, all of which stacked with each other (and circumstance and untyped stacked with themselves, so pick those up where you can get 'em!). Cursory splatbook-diving with a lenient DM who hard bans the loopholes and abusive **** could still get you upwards of +50 on any checks you wanted by mid-level. I never got far enough along into 4e to stress-test it at higher levels myself, but sitting next to my fiancée during her online game, it doesn't sound like much of a departure.

5e is a huge departure from all of that. You don't get to push your stats above 15 through point buy. You don't get to push your stats above 20 at all—unless it's through basically divine intervention or the type of campaign-altering magic your DM built the whole plot arc around. Proficiency does scale with level—from +2 to +6, a total of +4 across an entire adventuring career—and is not added to through any other means. Numerical bonuses of *any* kind are exceedingly rare by design, and the few that exist are considered exceedingly strong by virtue of their rarity and the value of small bonuses in this edition. Expertise is meant to represent the pinnacle of human achievement in an ability, and yet the difference between a creature with expertise, maxed out proficiency, and a maximized stat and a creature with no proficiency and a minimized stat, for the sake of their rolls on a check, is 18. That is literally as swingy as it ever gets.

5e fixes stats on the Gauntlets of Ogre Power for the same reason it fixes natural armor (Barkskin: "the target's AC can't be less than 16") and unarmored bonuses (Unarmored Defense: "your AC equals 10 + your Dexterity modifier + your Wisdom modifier"). Everything is worded very carefully so that nothing stacks that shouldn't explicitly stack, and nothing "adds" to anything; it just becomes a different value. This is to keep the numbers very much in line, so balance doesn't become totally impossible in the long term, like it was for previous editions.

[djreynolds]

I was surprised when I checked the magical items and found that most stat boosting magical items set a stat to a certain value. Like gauntlets and belts that increase strength set it to a certain value rather than boosting it. That kind of item was reasonable in 2nd edition where stats weren't quite as important. But I can't think why they went back to it in 5th edition.

Does anyone know the reasoning the developers were using?

For some it is character concepts, the ability to boost dex and have a high strength

For some, they are just lucky to find this and its fun

Others it is strategic and they will search for these items

[Bugado25]

I don't like those items.
For me, the way they set your atribute for a fixed value rewards dumping stats in a way I don’t like.

The way i would add then would be:

"The item gives a +2 bonus to your strenght. You can only benefit from 1 strenght boosting item at once."

That solves the problem from stacking and the one that rewards dumping.
For each rarity level beyond that add another +1.
Uncommon = +2
Rare = +3
Very Rare = +4
Legendary = +5

[JellyPooga]

I don't like those items.
For me, the way they set your atribute for a fixed value rewards dumping stats in a way I don’t like.

The way i would add then would be:

"The item gives a +2 bonus to your strenght. You can only benefit from 1 strenght boosting item at once."

That solves the problem from stacking and the one that rewards dumping.
For each rarity level beyond that add another +1.
Uncommon = +2
Rare = +3
Very Rare = +4
Legendary = +5

Pete: "Huzzah! I have, at long last, after many trials and tribulations, at the culmination of my lifes work, discovered the Legendary Belt of Storm Giant Strength! Let me don this mighty artifact and let the world tremble at my physical prowess! Those bullies will regret kicking me around the schoolyard as "Puny Pete", the weakest kid in school."

[Dons belt with a fanfare of triumph. Strength goes up to 13]

Pete: "Hmm...I must admit, I'm not impressed by the improvement in my physical capabilities."

Thrag: "Ha ha! Puny Pete still puny!" [proceeds to kick Pete around the schoolyard]

Yeah...a Legendary item should be doing something, well, Legendary. +5 to [stat] is a far cry from that unless you've already got peak [stat] already.

[rooneg]

That said, Gauntlets of Ogre Power make you as strong as an ogre not 'as strong as yourself plus a bit more' so there is an internal logic there as well.

This is pretty much it IMO. All the items make you "as strong as a $THING".

A convenient side effect of that is the relationship between those scores and the maximum for an unaugmented human. You can get an uncommon magic item that will make you ALMOST as good as the best human, but not better than. A Rare item can make you slightly stronger than the best human (but not in a way that matters mechanically, the bonuses are the same as the best human), and Very Rare or Legendary items can just do whatever they damn well please.

[Bugado25]

Pete: "Huzzah! I have, at long last, after many trials and tribulations, at the culmination of my lifes work, discovered the Legendary Belt of Storm Giant Strength! Let me don this mighty artifact and let the world tremble at my physical prowess! Those bullies will regret kicking me around the schoolyard as "Puny Pete", the weakest kid in school."

[Dons belt with a fanfare of triumph. Strength goes up to 13]

Pete: "Hmm...I must admit, I'm not impressed by the improvement in my physical capabilities."

Thrag: "Ha ha! Puny Pete still puny!" [proceeds to kick Pete around the schoolyard]

Yeah...a Legendary item should be doing something, well, Legendary. +5 to [stat] is a far cry from that unless you've already got peak [stat] already.

Cause that's totally a normal game situation.

What would really happen.

Playing with begginers

GM: After killing the orc chief, you search his bellongins and find a pair of gauntlets. They are clearly magical.

Wizard: I cast identify on the item.

GM: Its a gaunlet of ogre power. It boosts strengh. Here are the stats.

Fighter(Before looking at the stats): Cool I want it.

GM: Oh no, you already have an 18 on str it is useless for you.

Fightet: What? Why?

GM: It does not really boosts strengh. It only makes you as strong as an ogre. Ogres only have 19 of str so you would not have any boost.

And if you are playing with more experienced players and wants to let them start with any uncommon magic item or wants to enable magic item trade, there is no readon from an optimizing point of view to have more than 8 in str. One attunement slot is much less important than 9 or 7 points in point buy and one ASI.

[JellyPooga]

Cause that's totally a normal game situation.

What would really happen.

Playing with begginers

GM: After killing the orc chief, you search his bellongins and find a pair of gauntlets. They are clearly magical.

Wizard: I cast identify on the item.

GM: Its a gaunlet of ogre power. It boosts strengh. Here are the stats.

Fighter(Before looking at the stats): Cool I want it.

GM: Oh no, you already have an 18 on str it is useless for you.

Fightet: What? Why?

GM: It does not really boosts strengh. It only makes you as strong as an ogre. Ogres only have 19 of str so you would not have any boost.

And if you are playing with more experienced players and wants to let them start with any uncommon magic item or wants to enable magic item trade, there is no readon from an optimizing point of view to have more than 8 in str. One attunement slot is much less important than 9 or 7 points in point buy and one ASI.

A Fighter with Strength 18 is already as strong as an Ogre; why would he want magic gloves that make him as strong as he already is? I mean, that's what they advertise, isn't it? As for the Fighter that "doesn't bother" with Str greater than 8 because of his magic gloves?...well, more fool him for being totally reliant on a single magic item that may be lost, stolen, destroyed, negated or otherwise compromised. It's also one less attunement slot he has access to.

At low level, increasing the Fighters strength from (using point buy) at most 17 to 19 is a solid boon and no different from the +2 suggested. Hell, it even gives you a pretty awesome roleplaying reason to take a +2 ASI in Strength once you hit level 4; "Hmm, some of that magic must be rubbing off on me; I feel stronger even when I take the Gauntlets off..." [/the tale of how Olaf Ogrestrength got his name]. From an out-of-character (gamist) perspective, taking the ASI frees up an attunement slot and lets someone else grab the gloves if they want them.

If high level, loads-o-loot games and/or magic marts are your bag, then attunement slots are the most valuable commodity you have; you get three. Period. So "wasting" one on a mere stat bump you could have sourced elsewhere is foolishness.

[Joe the Rat]

And if you are playing with more experienced players and wants to let them start with any uncommon magic item or wants to enable magic item trade, there is no readon from an optimizing point of view to have more than 8 in str. One attunement slot is much less important than 9 or 7 points in point buy and one ASI.Well, obviously. If you are running a game with a different starting base, and are building characters with items in mind, of course someone's going to do that.
Magic item trade? If you add that to the game, of course someone is going to consider that approach... and will probably have to work as a finesse meleer until they get the scratch together, and find a seller.
If you change the base expectations, then these will happen. Hell, if I had a player coming to me on a new game, with "I want to have a physically weak character that finds these gauntlets down the road", hell yes I would provide that opportunity - as personal quest, or as found treasure. Or as a item formula to be crafted (ballparked 20 days, per magic item creation).
But also consider the expert player who knows things can be taken away, and the risk of being made useless at your thing because you relied entirely on items isn't always a safe bet.
Then there's the whole "hope you're not multiclassing" angle.

Yes, at 18+ strength, they don't do much for you. Because you're already strong as an Ogre. Ogres don't wear these, either.

Now then, if you wanted to do something beyond a simple stat fix, then have it affect other things. GoOP is only giving the stat of an ogre, but an ogre can still lift more weight due to size. So have the gauntlets double your carrying capacity. Now your 20 strength goliath bear totem barbarian still wants them, so he can have 8x normal carrying capacity. Or give them the ability to make 1d4 unarmed strikes. That'll be useful for everyone besides the monk and the tavern brawler. Now find something similar for the other 5 stats, and not so much that they should be bumped up to rare... which could otherwise get you 21 strength (Belt of Hill Giant Strength).

Of course, if you've got the gauntlets, and snag the belt (again, no stacking), you might as well go for the trifecta and get the hammer of thunderbolts. Having all three gives you an extra boost, even if one of the items isn't directly contributing to anything besides hand warmth.

[Bugado25]

A Fighter with Strength 18 is already as strong as an Ogre; why would he want magic gloves that make him as strong as he already is? I mean, that's what they advertise, isn't it? As for the Fighter that "doesn't bother" with Str greater than 8 because of his magic gloves?...well, more fool him for being totally reliant on a single magic item that may be lost, stolen, destroyed, negated or otherwise compromised. It's also one less attunement slot he has access to.
Who says the fighter needs to be reliant on that magic item? My problem with it is not that it allows you to dump strength. It is that it allows you to dump strength and boost Dex and other stats still maintaining the benefit of high strength. If the item is taken away, you will still work perfectly fine as a Dex fighter.

And most players will hate you if you take magic items from them with no way of getting them back. Especially if you do it only to one player. Of course, it highly depends on the way it happens in game.


At low level, increasing the Fighters strength from (using point buy) at most 17 to 19 is a solid boon and no different from the +2 suggested. Hell, it even gives you a pretty awesome roleplaying reason to take a +2 ASI in Strength once you hit level 4; "Hmm, some of that magic must be rubbing off on me; I feel stronger even when I take the Gauntlets off..." [/the tale of how Olaf Ogrestrength got his name]. From an out-of-character (gamist) perspective, taking the ASI frees up an attunement slot and lets someone else grab the gloves if they want them.
I also don’t like that the item is only useful for some levels. And if you don’t want to boost strength, the item will not be very useful to you anyway. It may enable you to make some changes to your build or tactics once you have it.


If high level, loads-o-loot games and/or magic marts are your bag, then attunement slots are the most valuable commodity you have; you get three. Period. So "wasting" one on a mere stat bump you could have sourced elsewhere is foolishness.
If you running with lots of magic items, you must consider the other STR boosting items too. Any belt of giant strength will already be beyond what you can get elsewhere. Even if you only consider uncommon items, there are not that many attunement items that you want to have at once, and if you consider rare magic items, then the belts give more strength than you can achieve by using ASIs.


Well Then there's the whole "hope you're not multiclassing" angle.
The only classes that care about your strength for multiclassing are barbarians and paladins. And even if you are in one of those two classes, you only will only have to boost strength till 13 instead of making it your main stat as you normally would. If anything, these items make easier to multiclass as they free up points that would be spent in strength.


Now then, if you wanted to do something beyond a simple stat fix, then have it affect other things. GoOP is only giving the stat of an ogre, but an ogre can still lift more weight due to size. So have the gauntlets double your carrying capacity. Now your 20 strength goliath bear totem barbarian still wants them, so he can have 8x normal carrying capacity. Or give them the ability to make 1d4 unarmed strikes. That'll be useful for everyone besides the monk and the tavern brawler. Now find something similar for the other 5 stats, and not so much that they should be bumped up to rare... which could otherwise get you 21 strength (Belt of Hill Giant Strength).
That would also work for me. If the items gave additional benefits if you already have a high strength I would like them a little more.

This discussion resumes to different POVs.

I think that STR-DEX-etc. boosting magic items should work better for classes that focus on STR-DEX-etc., something that isn’t true with their current form, while you think that is fine that the item is more useful for someone that dumped strength than someone focused on it.

Another problem for me is that the item is not very useful the way it current is. Unless you know that the game will include magic item trade or that you will start with them, any player that wants high strength will already have a high strength. And if a player has a low strength then the boost normally doesn’t really matter most of the time. It is only useful for classes that uses strength as a secondary stat, like melee clerics or some gishes, that would use weapons but prefer to increase his casting stat instead of his STR one.

[Breashios]

I was surprised when I checked the magical items and found that most stat boosting magical items set a stat to a certain value. Like gauntlets and belts that increase strength set it to a certain value rather than boosting it. That kind of item was reasonable in 2nd edition where stats weren't quite as important. But I can't think why they went back to it in 5th edition.

Does anyone know the reasoning the developers were using?

Have absolutely no idea the reasoning of the developers. I do know they are GREAT party items. If you don't look at it from a specific character build perspective, but as a party boost, they are wonderful. In our group the wizard with the 11 CON was handed the Amulet of Health. He rocks now. The tanks don't have to worry about blocking off enemies so much. The Druid can confidently go on the offensive for a while (our only healer). If someone needs to make a daily save for some disease or similar effect, the Amulet can be passed around and after attunement, Voila (Wa-lah)!

Even if the martials in the group did not need Gauntlets of Ogre Power, it would be nice to give to one of the characters with low strength. Then they could carry their share of the camping equipment! :smallcool:

[suplee215]

Well it's all about the small numbers here. Already most players playing str focused characters just look for the +3 magic items to get their character as powerful as possible. Giving them easy access to additional +2s (which is what you are suggesting) would make these characters even easier to optimize. Also Great Weapon Master is a huge reason to go str. So if your item isn't working or missing (a thief in the night or antimagic field) and you must rely on dex you're missing a huge damage source. As it stands, getting one of the very rare belts is extremely difficult even with magic items around.

[JellyPooga]

Who says the fighter needs to be reliant on that magic item?

If he's not using Strength, or whatever Ability Score, as his primary stat then I see no issue with that character getting a significant boost to an Ability Score that's he's simply not using. The Wizard with Str 18 isn't getting a massive boon out of the magic item granting it, despite dumping Str for Int. Similarly for the Fighter with a Headband of Intellect or the Barbarian with a Cloak of Charisma. The only case where any given character would get a significant boost is if he dumped Con and picked up an Amulet of Health...but who would seriously consider dumping Con on the chance/opportunity of getting the AoH? That player deserves everything he gets! :smallamused:


And most players will hate you if you take magic items from them

Then most players need to learn how that a bloody nose isn't the end of the world :smallwink:


I also don’t like that the item is only useful for some levels.

This is something I can get behind actually. I'd much prefer to see a system with items that either remain relevant for your entire career or scale with level to do so. Magic Items, in my book, should be rare and precious. I loathe the "magic mart" approach, so every item should be powerful in its own way. That doesn't necessarily mean the "Str-bump" item needs to be powerful for the Str-focused character, however.

For me, the stat-bump items are a crutch for characters that have a deficit; I imagine the Headband of Intellect, for example, being created not by some random Wizard to improve his own mental faculties, but by some despairing Archmage looking to play a decent game of chess with his dullard of an Apprentice or manservant.


If you running with lots of magic items, you must consider the other STR boosting items too.

This only applies to the Str-bump items specifically, for one. For the second point, the power of those items should reflect their rarity; as my daft example of Puny Pete demonstrates, a mere +5 Str is nothing for a character with Str 8; hardly indicative of the Legendary status of a Belt of Storm Giant Strength. As written, granting a flat Str:29, however, even the mightiest of Barbarians will enjoy the giddy heights of near-perfect musculature. Yes, you can argue that the same Barbarian could have invested all those points of Strength into some other stat and still enjoy that Legendary Strength...but then we come back to the point of availability (not every game will have that Belt), being compromised (whoops! No Beholder fights for you) and, let's face it...he's not much of a Barbarian if he's only got Str: 8!

If, instead, we give the Legendary Belt to Puny Pete the Wizard...well, what's he going to do with it? Sure, he now has Str:29...which he can make one melee attack per turn with? Lift a heavy rock? Yeah he has Legendary Strength, but he isn't using it to any great effect. Might as well let him have his cake and eat it too; it's not like he's going to break the game even with the mightiest of mighty strength boosting items.

To summarise;
- If you're reliant on [stat], you really don't want to rely on a [stat]-boosting item, but it's a nice crutch until your natural [stat] exceeds it.
- If you're not reliant on [stat], a [stat]-boosting item is a nice perk, but hardly the end of the world with regards to game-balance.

Making stat-boosting items a bonus instead of a replacement, changes this to;
- If you're reliant on [stat], you really really want (if not need), a [stat]-boosting item.
- If you're not reliant on [stat], a [stat]-boosting item is worthless.

[rooneg]

To summarise;
- If you're reliant on [stat], you really don't want to rely on a [stat]-boosting item, but it's a nice crutch until your natural [stat] exceeds it.
- If you're not reliant on [stat], a [stat]-boosting item is a nice perk, but hardly the end of the world with regards to game-balance.

Making stat-boosting items a bonus instead of a replacement, changes this to;
- If you're reliant on [stat], you really really want (if not need), a [stat]-boosting item.
- If you're not reliant on [stat], a [stat]-boosting item is worthless.

The stat boost items also enable some builds that simply aren't practical without them. I have a Deep Gnome Eldritch Knight/Wizard who fights with a war hammer (because it's a more iconic deep gnome item than a rapier). The mechanically correct build would have been a DEX based one, but the fact that I have access to items that boost either STR or INT means I can make a STR based version of the character and have it work (otherwise I'd have to choose between necessary feats and ASIs and he'd take forever to come online). It's a calculated risk, because he's going to roll over and die in an anti-magic zone or something, but it's one I go into knowing it's an issue.

Similarly, access to gauntlets of ogre power means I can have my 8 STR Cleric of Lathander actually swing a mace. She's not designed to need to fight in melee, but this means she can do it if the situation comes up.

These are the kind of characters who love the stat boosting items.

[Deathtongue]

Any reason why you can't just... do both? For example, Gauntlets of Ogre Strength set your strength to 16 if you have 12 STR or less, sets it to 19 if you have 13 to 17 strength, or otherwise boosts it by +2. Or you could have diminishing returns for it such that if someone has 8 or 9 strength, they gain +5, 14 strength +3, etc. so that you never gain less than +1 or +2.

Of course, this creates weird breakpoints where the gauntlets are least useful for people who have 15 strength, but that's the nature of such things. The idea is to have an item that anyone will be excited to have.

[Coffee_Dragon]

If someone needs to make a daily save for some disease or similar effect, the Amulet can be passed around and after attunement, Voila (Wa-lah)!

That one sounds like massive metagaming. In the game the save is not an actual event happening at a given time.

Edit: Maybe less so if I overinterpreted what "passed around" meant.

[Contrast]

So firstly, this plan is only ever a good idea if you're already starting with a magic item that you get to choose as otherwise you've dumped a primary stat with no idea if/when the correct item may turn up.

Secondly, fine you're starting with an item. The DM gets to look at your character. If he thinks you're being silly he can put the kibbosh on it right there.

Thirdly, even if you're starting with the item (Tim the town idiot happened to find a magical circulet of intelligence one day and set off for wizard school!) you are basically begging the DM to, at some point, deprive you of said item on at least a temporary basis.

Fourthly, even if the above presents no issues you have effectively chosen to have one less attunement slot compared to everyone else (in addition to never being able to reach max in your stat unless its strength I believe?).

[rooneg]

Any reason why you can't just... do both? For example, Gauntlets of Ogre Strength set your strength to 16 if you have 12 STR or less, sets it to 19 if you have 13 to 17 strength, or otherwise boosts it by +2. Or you could have diminishing returns for it such that if someone has 8 or 9 strength, they gain +5, 14 strength +3, etc. so that you never gain less than +1 or +2.

Of course, this creates weird breakpoints where the gauntlets are least useful for people who have 15 strength, but that's the nature of such things. The idea is to have an item that anyone will be excited to have.

Honestly, the same reason there are 6 stats and they start approximately between 3 and 18. Tradition. 5e has a LOT of tradition baked into it.


So firstly, this plan is only ever a good idea if you're already starting with a magic item that you get to choose as otherwise you've dumped a primary stat with no idea if/when the correct item may turn up.

Secondly, fine you're starting with an item. The DM gets to look at your character. If he thinks you're being silly he can put the kibbosh on it right there.

Thirdly, even if you're starting with the item (Tim the town idiot happened to find a magical circulet of intelligence one day and set off for wizard school!) you are basically begging the DM to, at some point, deprive you of said item on at least a temporary basis.

Fourthly, even if the above presents no issues you have effectively chosen to have one less attunement slot compared to everyone else (in addition to never being able to reach max in your stat unless its strength I believe?).

In my case, it's an AL game and I knew I'd have access to the items via DM rewards or trading, so building with those in mind isn't such a weird plan.

The attunement slot thing is a big deal though. It's a non-trivial price to pay. So is not being able to reach maximum STR (or INT), although with STR you can still get maxed out if you use a belt of giant strength instead of the gauntlets. It's all about what trade offs you're willing to make.

[Segev]

Even if "Magic Item Mart" isn't planned for, and magic items are just meant to be nice boons that may or may not occur, it's a little weird that the DM would find himself thinking, "You know, a strength boosting item seems like it'd be cool, but there's no reason to give it to the party because it wouldn't actually boost the strong guy."

[hymer]

Even if "Magic Item Mart" isn't planned for, and magic items are just meant to be nice boons that may or may not occur, it's a little weird that the DM would find himself thinking, "You know, a strength boosting item seems like it'd be cool, but there's no reason to give it to the party because it wouldn't actually boost the strong guy."

There are other items that could do that, though. Ioun stones, manuals, and the giant strength stuff. If the DM is worried about messing with bounded accuracy, there are various degrees of items.

[Pex]

The problem with the item is that those who value Strength will already have at least an 18 the item is worthless and those who don't value strength won't need it. A Dex base fighter or a rogue wouldn't mind a high strength when they have to make an Athletics check but really it doesn't do much for them in the long run for how their character plays.

To make the item useful it has to be available before the Strength base character gets his 18. That will diversify the character because he'll boost another stat or get a feat at the appropriate level(s). The earliest would be the potent or one of the potent items in the treasure hoard of the BBEG the party defeated and just become 4th level. That might be too early for some people. If the relevant player chose a feat at 4th level then it's 6th level for the fighter and 8th level for the barbarian or paladin or maybe ranger.

Alternatively, the item could be most useful for the warrior cleric who has been and will be boosting Wisdom for a while and encourage him to boost Constitution as secondary.

[ChainsawFlwrcld]

Then most players need to learn how that a bloody nose isn't the end of the world :smallwink:


I like you.

[GlenSmash!]

GM: Its a gaunlet of ogre power. It boosts strengh. Here are the stats...

GM: It does not really boosts strengh. It only makes you as strong as an ogre. Ogres only have 19 of str so you would not have any boost.


Why did the GM lie in this example? Why didn't the GM just say right off the bat "They make the wearer's Strength equal to that of an Ogre"?

[Crusher]

The problem with having magic items scale in power as the characters level, which goes hand in hand with being grumpy about magic items only being useful at certain levels, is incentive.

A character only gets to attune to 3 magic items, right? If those magic items are nifty ones that scale in power and are designed to be always useful throughout the character's entire progression, then that means the DM is only going to get to give that character 3 magic items, total, over their entire progression. If the campaign runs from 1-10, then that's fine, but if you're talking 1-20 (as I suspect most people are. I mean, by level 15 or probably 12 those things will be done, but at 8 GoOP are still at least 50/50 for being useful to the party Fighter. Maybe they've got an 18 STR by then, but its also possible they'll have taken some combination of GWM or Polearm Mastery or Shield Mastery or Sentinel or Lucky or Mage Slayer and still use them) then that could easily be a year or more of regular adventuring.

That's a long, long time between magic item rewards and once you get #3 you're done. On the other hand, letting the character gradually upgrade their gear as they themselves slowly get more powerful works out nicely. You don't really expect to still be using that +1 sword at level 20, right?

Now this COULD be made to work, if the DM sets it up such that every magic item everyone gets is a big deal requiring side quests and builds the campaign around it. I've actually done something similar in an OotA I'm DMing. I've created a low-grade artifact scale item for each character and stuck them at specific spots where I expect the characters to find them albeit after a fair bit of work. So far its working out nicely. The downside, however, is when the characters are level 14 and defeat the evil adventuring party that's the enemy in a particular adventure, why don't they have any magic items? And if they do, what is the party supposed to do with them?

My approach in OotA works fine because they're stuck in the Underdark with extremely limited access to normal society. In the other campaigns I've run, magic items are fairly rare but I've very much created a Magic Mart to which characters will eventually be able to buy and sell items. I never used to like it, but I've gradually come around. I realized that I can make availability very spotty (there are some magic items I'm NEVER going to let them have because they wreck stuff) and prices will be high enough that it'll keep the characters from going nuts. But it'll give them something to actually save up their gold for after buying Full Plate and a way of disposing of the various +1 weapons they find along the way.

[Tanarii]

Even if "Magic Item Mart" isn't planned for, and magic items are just meant to be nice boons that may or may not occur, it's a little weird that the DM would find himself thinking, "You know, a strength boosting item seems like it'd be cool, but there's no reason to give it to the party because it wouldn't actually boost the strong guy."
I agree that is a little weird. In that situation, why is the DM giving items based on what party can or cannot use? :smalltongue:

[Crusher]

I agree that is a little weird. In that situation, why is the DM giving items based on what party can or cannot use? :smalltongue:

The issue is that if there isn't a Magic-Mart, what does the party do with a magic item none of its members can use? I guess they could give it as a gift to the local Duke, but that feels a little underwhelming unless they get something interesting back (not necessarily a magic item. Could be a neat quest or permission to go somewhere forbidden or whatever. Depends on the campaign).

[JellyPooga]

A character only gets to attune to 3 magic items, right? If those magic items are nifty ones that scale in power and are designed to be always useful throughout the character's entire progression, then that means the DM is only going to get to give that character 3 magic items, total, over their entire progression.

Three attuned magic items.

There's plenty in the book that don't require attunement and what's to say there's not the possibility of a character wanting the option of switching out his gear by re-attuning to them as needed. Scaling magic items doesn't preclude the idea of having a lot of magic items floating around.

- Want to have the option of flying around with your Winged Boots, but don't think you'll need them all the time? Just pack them away and wear your Boots of the Winterlands instead, staying snug and warm, only busting out the fancy footwear for special occasions.

- Wand out of charges for the day? Attune your spare one on the next Short Rest.

Neither of these example would change if the items in question scaled to your level. The same principle of "I've got just the item we need" applies as with non-scaling items; it still just takes a short rest to de/attune to a given item, if attunement is even needed.

[Contrast]

In my case, it's an AL game and I knew I'd have access to the items via DM rewards or trading, so building with those in mind isn't such a weird plan.

I've never played AL so I have no idea of the specifics but I'm very surprised. I would have expected it to be even more problematic given they run set adventures with set loot to the best of my understanding. You're just allowed to chop and change any magic items you find into any other magic item you want?

[RickAllison]

I think these items work best later on in the campaign, when those who focus in a stat already have had a chance to boost it to 20 or 18. I think these work great as a way for other characters to tap into new abilities when needed, or to empower some lateral decisions. A monk, for example, starts going into a little more of grappling because his Strength is now at a reasonable level for it. The wizard deciphers a tablet that reveals the doors of the next room will close as a trap, then asks to borrow the Gauntlets and takes a short rest to be able to hold up the door for the party. These don't have to be character-defining items, they can just be one of many tools in the party's utility belts.

Link in some games has gauntlets of strength. He can use them more readily than in D&D, but similarly they are only pulled out when the party actually thinks they would be useful. So too does the intelligence-setting item act as a nice tool for the bard to attune to when they need to pull some INT checks. The Amulet of Health is just a little more powerful, and I would caution bringing it into a campaign unless it is supposed to be a massive reward. I mean it is REALLY powerful.

[rooneg]

I've never played AL so I have no idea of the specifics but I'm very surprised. I would have expected it to be even more problematic given they run set adventures with set loot to the best of my understanding. You're just allowed to chop and change any magic items you find into any other magic item you want?

No, you're not, there are specific rules about it. There are DM Rewards you can get that allow you to give one of your characters specific items (for each 24 hours worth of DM time you can give one item, has to be something you've given out in an adventure and has to go to a tier appropriate character, tier 1 can have an uncommon, tier 2 can have a rare, tier 3 can have a very rare). Alternatively, if you've already got a character with the item in question you can plan to trade it between your characters as soon as you've picked up something else of the appropriate rarity. So if an existing character of mine has the gauntlets I just need to wait till my new low STR character finds an uncommon item and then I can have him trade for the gauntlets.

[Tanarii]

The issue is that if there isn't a Magic-Mart, what does the party do with a magic item none of its members can use? I guess they could give it as a gift to the local Duke, but that feels a little underwhelming unless they get something interesting back (not necessarily a magic item. Could be a neat quest or permission to go somewhere forbidden or whatever. Depends on the campaign).
Lack of a magic mart doesn't mean you can't sell magic items, although IMX it's usually somewhat more difficult in the average DMs campaign in that case. It typically just means you can't buy them. But yeah, it's a nebulous term.

Or give them as a gift to gain goodwill. To NPCs, sure. But especially to Henchmen, Apprentices, Retainers, and other assorted followers, companions, and hangers on. That's generally a sure-fire way to up their Loyalty.

I was mostly poking fun at customizing magic items to the party, even though it's a fairly common practice for DMs to do in home games.

[RickAllison]

Lack of a magic mart doesn't mean you can't sell magic items, although IMX it's usually somewhat more difficult in the average DMs campaign in that case. It typically just means you can't buy them. But yeah, it's a nebulous term.

Or give them as a gift to gain goodwill. To NPCs, sure. But especially to Henchmen, Apprentices, Retainers, and other assorted followers, companions, and hangers on. That's generally a sure-fire way to up their Loyalty.

I was mostly poking fun at customizing magic items to the party, even though it's a fairly common practice for DMs to do in home games.

My party has learned not to trust me on customized magic items. They are inevitably cursed, misleading, ridiculous, or compensation for an ensuing total destruction. The random ones are the safe ones, as those tend to be rolled loot or plot-related aka safe.

[Sigreid]

So a solid advantage of these things is they make attribute draining attacks completely ineffective.

[Pex]

The problem with having magic items scale in power as the characters level, which goes hand in hand with being grumpy about magic items only being useful at certain levels, is incentive.

A character only gets to attune to 3 magic items, right? If those magic items are nifty ones that scale in power and are designed to be always useful throughout the character's entire progression, then that means the DM is only going to get to give that character 3 magic items, total, over their entire progression. If the campaign runs from 1-10, then that's fine, but if you're talking 1-20 (as I suspect most people are. I mean, by level 15 or probably 12 those things will be done, but at 8 GoOP are still at least 50/50 for being useful to the party Fighter. Maybe they've got an 18 STR by then, but its also possible they'll have taken some combination of GWM or Polearm Mastery or Shield Mastery or Sentinel or Lucky or Mage Slayer and still use them) then that could easily be a year or more of regular adventuring.

That's a long, long time between magic item rewards and once you get #3 you're done. On the other hand, letting the character gradually upgrade their gear as they themselves slowly get more powerful works out nicely. You don't really expect to still be using that +1 sword at level 20, right?

Now this COULD be made to work, if the DM sets it up such that every magic item everyone gets is a big deal requiring side quests and builds the campaign around it. I've actually done something similar in an OotA I'm DMing. I've created a low-grade artifact scale item for each character and stuck them at specific spots where I expect the characters to find them albeit after a fair bit of work. So far its working out nicely. The downside, however, is when the characters are level 14 and defeat the evil adventuring party that's the enemy in a particular adventure, why don't they have any magic items? And if they do, what is the party supposed to do with them?

My approach in OotA works fine because they're stuck in the Underdark with extremely limited access to normal society. In the other campaigns I've run, magic items are fairly rare but I've very much created a Magic Mart to which characters will eventually be able to buy and sell items. I never used to like it, but I've gradually come around. I realized that I can make availability very spotty (there are some magic items I'm NEVER going to let them have because they wreck stuff) and prices will be high enough that it'll keep the characters from going nuts. But it'll give them something to actually save up their gold for after buying Full Plate and a way of disposing of the various +1 weapons they find along the way.

Not every magic item requires attunement and not just the consumables either.

[Vogonjeltz]

I was surprised when I checked the magical items and found that most stat boosting magical items set a stat to a certain value. Like gauntlets and belts that increase strength set it to a certain value rather than boosting it. That kind of item was reasonable in 2nd edition where stats weren't quite as important. But I can't think why they went back to it in 5th edition.

Does anyone know the reasoning the developers were using?

Probably literalism. It gives you the strength an Ogre has. 19 Strength, to be precise. If it gave you 2 more strength, but you only had a 10 after that, it wouldn't be well named. Similarly, if you had 25 strength after, you'd become much stronger than an Ogre, so again, poorly named.

[Captain Morgan]

Maybe a Fighter, a pretty SAD class with extra ASIs, doesn't need Gauntlets of Ogre Strength. But a Barbarian might like being able to up their constitution first. A Bladelock, paladin, or Valor Bard can now make boosting charisma a higher priority. All this is especially true if you have a non-optimal race whose stat points didn't let you get 16 starting out.

This depends on said items arriving in time before ASIs get applied. If not, you can give the gauntlets to a strength 8 Caster who is now harder to grapple, or can actually pull your full plate fighter out of harms way should when you are paralyzed or dangling off a cliff.

At worst, it's just one more piece of kinda useless loot. 5e already has a lot of that.

[Tanarii]

I've given out a few gauntlets by this point, in a very large no-multiclassing campaign with many players / characters. The PCs that show the most interest are generally Clerics, Pact of the Blade Warlocks, and College of Valor Bards.

[Sigreid]

I've given out a few gauntlets by this point, in a very large no-multiclassing campaign with many players / characters. The PCs that show the most interest are generally Clerics, Pact of the Blade Warlocks, and College of Valor Bards.

This makes perfect sense. It's good for these classes to have strength, but that's not any where near the top of their priority list.

[Temperjoke]

One thing to consider, it's also to help prevent optimizing munchkins from insisting on getting specific items for their optimally calculated build.

[Vaz]

One thing to consider, it's also to help prevent optimizing munchkins from insisting on getting specific items for their optimally calculated build.
As a DM you can just say 'no'. As an optimizer from 3.5 days I find the Character Creation system boring and stale and inevitably cookie cutter compared to 3.5.

The less options there are, the more certain ones stand out and the more obvious these are and the more often they get taken.

Not giving a 'munchkin optimizer' a +2 or better magic item simply means that they're stuck at a lower strength and will instead insist upon getting a +3 weapon. It literally makes no difference.

[doc225]

My group played through LMoP. The dwarf fighter had chose to put his 14 in STR, so with his racial ability boost he had 16 and then took his ASI in str, giving him an 18 at 4th level. They found GoOP, and he instantly said 'My strength is high enough, the cleric should wear these."

The cleric had been playing as a support caster and healer, because that's how she wanted to play. She had a 12 str, but with these she instantly became more active in combat, and felt awesome because of it.

Was it ideal? probably not, but it was fun. It feel like it added to the story. Someone who creates these gauntlets is a caster who wasn't blessed with high strength. They think, in story terms, "I want to be as strong as an ogre."

It was fun. I think that's the most important thing.

[Pex]

I've given out a few gauntlets by this point, in a very large no-multiclassing campaign with many players / characters. The PCs that show the most interest are generally Clerics, Pact of the Blade Warlocks, and College of Valor Bards.

This topic has been discussed before in past threads. An in my opinion valid criticism brought up then was that the item is rather unfair to the Strength priority classes because they have to spend ASIs on Strength where these classes that still like Strength can pump up their prime and benefit from high Strength, getting the best of both worlds. Giving the Strength priority classes a Constitution item is a nice gesture, but then they're in competition for that item from the squishy spellcasters who'll also claim it would help in concentration. A better consolation wasn't really concluded other than the Strength priority classes should be given some cool magic item of their own. What that item would be is subjective to the user but definitely more potent than a magic +0 weapon with a rider effect.

[Tanarii]

Meh, I randomly determine magic items, so who gets what, and if they're even useful to the current party, depends on luck of the dice. Otoh I also run with hunch end and there are multiple parties (and membership changes), so magic items can usually find a home. Meowever, a lot of that is specific to my campaign, so yeah, everyone else's mirage mileage may vary considerably.

I agree that it'd be nice to have Ability Score 19 items for each score. In fact, not having dug deeply into what was in the DMG (since I roll I only have to worry about what comes up on a roll) until recently I wasn't even aware there weren't. I'd made an incorrect assumption based on previous editions that there was one for each stat.

(Edit: fixed mileage but leaving meow ever because that's just funny. :smallbiggrin: )

[RumoCrytuf]

I was surprised when I checked the magical items and found that most stat boosting magical items set a stat to a certain value. Like gauntlets and belts that increase strength set it to a certain value rather than boosting it. That kind of item was reasonable in 2nd edition where stats weren't quite as important. But I can't think why they went back to it in 5th edition.

Does anyone know the reasoning the developers were using?

Because the last thing we need is a barbarian with 3 STR+5 items and 20 STR. We're talking a 1 man wrecking crew. Other players would never see a battle where they got to be productive. They'd be meatshields and cannon fodder. Useful only for their flavor (Which I love personally, but not everyone sees it this way)

[holywhippet]

The problem with the item is that those who value Strength will already have at least an 18 the item is worthless and those who don't value strength won't need it. A Dex base fighter or a rogue wouldn't mind a high strength when they have to make an Athletics check but really it doesn't do much for them in the long run for how their character plays.


Maybe, maybe not. I'm about to start a campaign as a paladin and I only have 14 strength since I feel other stats are also important to a paladin. I might bump that up to 16 when I reach level 4 so that I can wear plate mail but unless I get a strength boosting magical item I don't expect to boost it past that.

[Captain Morgan]

This topic has been discussed before in past threads. An in my opinion valid criticism brought up then was that the item is rather unfair to the Strength priority classes because they have to spend ASIs on Strength where these classes that still like Strength can pump up their prime and benefit from high Strength, getting the best of both worlds. Giving the Strength priority classes a Constitution item is a nice gesture, but then they're in competition for that item from the squishy spellcasters who'll also claim it would help in concentration. A better consolation wasn't really concluded other than the Strength priority classes should be given some cool magic item of their own. What that item would be is subjective to the user but definitely more potent than a magic +0 weapon with a rider effect.

The fact that the item is more useful to some classes/builds than others doesn't make it a bad item or unfair. A cleric will appreciate a magic mace or than a sword, and a paladin will appreciate a magic sword more than a male. If you are concerned about fairness then add some loot that's useful to the strength based fighter somehow.

And SAD classes already benefit from being SAD.

[Zalabim]

I think that STR-DEX-etc. boosting magic items should work better for classes that focus on STR-DEX-etc., something that isn’t true with their current form, while you think that is fine that the item is more useful for someone that dumped strength than someone focused on it.
These items also exist. There are Ioun Stones that obey limits and tomes/manuals that break limits.
Another problem for me is that the item is not very useful the way it current is. Unless you know that the game will include magic item trade or that you will start with them, any player that wants high strength will already have a high strength. And if a player has a low strength then the boost normally doesn’t really matter most of the time. It is only useful for classes that uses strength as a secondary stat, like melee clerics or some gishes, that would use weapons but prefer to increase his casting stat instead of his STR one.
That's why these items are only Uncommon. Those who really care about the stat already have it high. Those who really gain a boost in the stat also typically don't care about it as much.

The Amulet of Health is just a little more powerful, and I would caution bringing it into a campaign unless it is supposed to be a massive reward. I mean it is REALLY powerful.
Except the Amulet of Health. That's Rare. Everyone cares about Constitution, but no one is likely to have it that high early on, or ever if they need hybrid stats. It is a powerful item so it is more rare.

[JellyPooga]

This topic has been discussed before in past threads. An in my opinion valid criticism brought up then was that the item is rather unfair to the Strength priority classes because they have to spend ASIs on Strength

If GoOP were the only item that raised a stat to 19, I'd agree. The fact that they're not makes this a terrible argument. Is the Headband of Intellect unfair to Wizards? Gloves of Dexterity unfair to Rogues and Rangers? The Cloak of Charisma unfair to Paladins, Bards, Sorcerers and Warlocks? No.

If anything the Belts of Giant Strength are unfair to Classes that don't have Strength as a priority because they allow yoy to exceed normal limits.

edit: post retracted, based on false assumptions.

[rooneg]

If GoOP were the only item that raised a stat to 19, I'd agree. The fact that they're not makes this a terrible argument. Is the Headband of Intellect unfair to Wizards? Gloves of Dexterity unfair to Rogues and Rangers? The Cloak of Charisma unfair to Paladins, Bards, Sorcerers and Warlocks? No.

If anything the Belts of Giant Strength are unfair to Classes that don't have Strength as a priority because they allow yoy to exceed normal limits.

Umm, Gloves of Dexterity and Cloak of Charisma don't exist in 5e (at least not in anything released so far).

[JellyPooga]

Umm, Gloves of Dexterity and Cloak of Charisma don't exist in 5e (at least not in anything released so far).

Huh...I never noticed that. In my defence, my party did get a pair of Gloves of Dexterity in an early game of 5ed we played (I forget if it was a GM-created module or one converted from an older edition) and after that I just kind of assumed they were all in there. Looks like it's just the GoOP, HoI and AoH that "do the deed" in 5ed and with the total lack of relevance of Intelligence and the universal applicability of Constitution...yeah, I suppose I'd be inclined to agree with Pex on this one. Interesting. I retract my previous post.

[Tanarii]

Huh...I never noticed that.
Yeah I ran into the same damn thing. I just mistakenly assumed they were in the DMG somewhere.

Maybe they thought being able to set a Dex, Wis or Cha 19 would be too generally useful? Otoh they made a Con one, and other than the occasional very high level Barbarian or Fighter everyone wants that.

[rooneg]

Yeah I ran into the same damn thing. I just mistakenly assumed they were in the DMG somewhere.

Maybe they thought being able to set a Dex, Wis or Cha 19 would be too generally useful? Otoh they made a Con one, and other than the occasional very high level Barbarian or Fighter everyone wants that.

I think it's exactly that. STR and INT are actually relatively specialized, most people who want high scores in them already have most of what you get from an uncommon boost item already. DEX impacts more stuff in the game than either of them, and it's something that's useful for classes that don't really want it. Even your heavily armored knight with a STR weapon will like the bonus to initiative. WIS is a super useful save and powers a lot of skills, and CHA is the backbone of a lot of casters and skills (way more than INT is).

Now CON is generally useful for almost everyone (especially casters), but it doesn't power skills at all and they compensated by making the "boost to 19" item Rare, not Uncommon.

They picked the least generally useful stats and put the "get a 19" items at Uncommon. Then they picked the "cool, but not broken" one and put it at Rare. Everything else they said "no, that's too strong".

[SharkForce]

or maybe they just didn't put those items in yet, and we'll get them at a later date.

there are a *lot* of magic items in D&D. getting them all into the DMG was simply not possible. so they picked some of them (probably the ones they considered most iconic) and called it a day.

anyways, i could get behind the idea of giving some sort of extra minor boost for the various stat-boosting items (iirc, the amulet of health already has one) to make them more appealing for those who focus on the attribute. but i still have no real problem with the items setting attributes to some value rather than giving a bonus. yeah, it feels a bit weird sometimes (i think the biggest problem is actually that humans can already achieve ogre strength easily, whereas in 2nd edition 18/00 strength was super rare). but it keeps those items from being super powerful, which in turn means they don't need to all be legendary.

it also keeps the lesser items from breaking bounded accuracy. now, some items already do that (which is really unfortunate in my opinion), including the more powerful belts of giant strength, but that's no excuse for making more items that mess with the fundamental assumptions in the game. a battlemaster with strength 25 can get DC 21 saves on maneuvers, which as i've said elsewhere is going to start to make things break down.

now, what i could *maybe* get behind on those strength items would be that if you already have your strength as high as the item, you get an alternate bonus. this bonus would not be available without your strength being naturally that high, and may arguably not be as good. my gut feeling on what to offer? either half or full proficiency to non-proficient strength checks (not saves or attack rolls). it won't come up too often most likely (if you're focusing strength, you probably have athletics proficiency), but it does mean they'll be better at, say, bashing in doors, breaking free from webs, toppling large statues over, etc. i would hesitate to double carrying capacity, because there's already a lot of that in the game, and we don't want a 5e hulking hurler :P and i think that higher raw strength checks reflects the function of the item very well.

[Tanarii]

there are a *lot* of magic items in D&D. getting them all into the DMG was simply not possible. so they picked some of them (probably the ones they considered most iconic) and called it a day.
It'd be interesting to see a side-by-side of the AD&D 1e, AD&D 2e, and 5e DMG magic items. (3e and 4e being too significantly different.) A lot of stuff in the OhB & DMG is clearly mapped from one edition to the next, down to quite detailed things, if you know what you're looking for.

... I don't think I'm enough of nerd to spend at amount of time tho. :smallbiggrin:

[Sigreid]

Umm, Gloves of Dexterity and Cloak of Charisma don't exist in 5e (at least not in anything released so far).

Still, if I'm playing that barbarian or fighter that dumped his int to 8, I would actually like to have a headband of intellect.

[Sigreid]

Yeah I ran into the same damn thing. I just mistakenly assumed they were in the DMG somewhere.

Maybe they thought being able to set a Dex, Wis or Cha 19 would be too generally useful? Otoh they made a Con one, and other than the occasional very high level Barbarian or Fighter everyone wants that.

If you, as a DM want these things in your game it's easier than trivial to add them though.

[Armok]

Personally, I think that as they're written now, they're a bit... ogrepowered. :smallcool:

...I'll see myself out.

[rooneg]

Still, if I'm playing that barbarian or fighter that dumped his int to 8, I would actually like to have a headband of intellect.

Honestly, in most cases I wouldn't be in love with that plan. You probably don't have proficiency in any INT skills, so while the swing is significant (from -1 to +4) it's going to become outclassed pretty quickly by characters who actually have proficiency in those skills. INT saves are pretty rare, and you're using up an attunement slot. I'm not saying it's useless (if nothing else, you have an excuse to RP a super smart Barbarian, which is hilarious), but mechanically I'd probably rather spend that attunement slot on something else.

The headband mostly pays off for characters who have some mechanical way to benefit from them. You can have your dual classed Fighter/Wizard prepare a bunch more spells and have decent saves while never actually bumping their INT past 13 (most DMs won't let you multiclass based on a magic item boosted stat). Beyond that, the headband tends to be pretty overestimated. There really aren't a lot of characters who benefit from a high INT and don't already want to have a bunch of points in it before you get to the headband.

[Sigreid]

Honestly, in most cases I wouldn't be in love with that plan. You probably don't have proficiency in any INT skills, so while the swing is significant (from -1 to +4) it's going to become outclassed pretty quickly by characters who actually have proficiency in those skills. INT saves are pretty rare, and you're using up an attunement slot. I'm not saying it's useless (if nothing else, you have an excuse to RP a super smart Barbarian, which is hilarious), but mechanically I'd probably rather spend that attunement slot on something else.

The headband mostly pays off for characters who have some mechanical way to benefit from them. You can have your dual classed Fighter/Wizard prepare a bunch more spells and have decent saves while never actually bumping their INT past 13 (most DMs won't let you multiclass based on a magic item boosted stat). Beyond that, the headband tends to be pretty overestimated. There really aren't a lot of characters who benefit from a high INT and don't already want to have a bunch of points in it before you get to the headband.

I understand what you're saying but from what I've seen in games so fare a lot of fighter oriented magic items don't acquire atonement. Naturally, if you hit a point where you have 3 other items that do, you have to make a choice.

And, of course it's the perfect armor against the dreaded intellect devourer.

[JellyPooga]

I think the biggest problem is actually that humans can already achieve ogre strength easily, whereas in 2nd edition 18/00 strength was super rare.

Interesting notion and one I largely agree with. When any given character, even using point-buy, can have 18 or higher Strength at level 4, "ogre strength" is hardly the fear-inspiring level of physical prowess it probably should be for your average medium sized humanoid.

Then again, 18/00 "Ogre" Strength in 2ed was a much bigger deal than 17 Strength; probably more akin to the difference between 17 and...oh, I don't know, 24 or maybe higher in 5ed. It's hard to calculate because the "hit bonus" only went from +1 to +3 between 17 and 18/00, but damage went from +1 to +6 and break percentage increased by about 30%...give or take. That 30% increase translates as a +6 difference on a d20, so spit-balling the comparison as a +4, maybe a +5 difference in 5ed seems about right to me. This doesn't really account for the fact that your stats were pretty static in 2ed too, where they're mobile in 5ed.

So yeah, just eyeballing the difference between 2ed and 5ed GoOP, the 5ed ones are pretty pansy compared to the godlike 2ed version which was more like the 5ed Belt of Fire Giant Strength in actual function.

[JellyPooga]

The headband mostly pays off for characters who have some mechanical way to benefit from them.

Knowledge Clerics, Rogues and Bards are the ones that come to mind for me. Maybe the occasional Ranger. Arcane Tricksters and Eldritch Knights should also get a special mention because it's perfectly valid for either to completely ignore Intelligence despite it being their casting stat; should either find a Headband of Intelligence, they gain the option, at the cost of an attunement slot, of picking up a wider variety of spells that actually depend on Int.

[rooneg]

I understand what you're saying but from what I've seen in games so fare a lot of fighter oriented magic items don't acquire atonement. Naturally, if you hit a point where you have 3 other items that do, you have to make a choice.

And, of course it's the perfect armor against the dreaded intellect devourer.

Both fair points. I also tend to consider things from the AL point of view, where it's practical to trade away the headband if it's not needed. In a game where you're limited to the items you actually found and you haven't yet hit the point where attunement is a factor then you should absolutely have the INT 8 martial character put on the headband ASAP ;-)

[Sigreid]

Both fair points. I also tend to consider things from the AL point of view, where it's practical to trade away the headband if it's not needed. In a game where you're limited to the items you actually found and you haven't yet hit the point where attunement is a factor then you should absolutely have the INT 8 martial character put on the headband ASAP ;-)

We definitely have different gaming situations. I only play with either my family, or the same group I've been gaming with for more than a decade, with additions only being people that at least one of us knows well. I find I enjoy the game more with friends than with strangers.

[rooneg]

We definitely have different gaming situations. I only play with either my family, or the same group I've been gaming with for more than a decade, with additions only being people that at least one of us knows well. I find I enjoy the game more with friends than with strangers.

Oh, I absolutely agree. Sadly, my personal schedule won't support a regular weekly game though, so I take what I can from AL games either online or at cons. AL means I can still watch my characters grow over time, and in practice I do end up playing with many of the same people over time at the various local cons I try to attend. It's not the same as a regular weekly game with a consistent group, but it's still D&D.