Wild shape and familiarity

[Keral]

Hi.

I'm having a bit of an issue with one of my players regarding the familiarity caveat of the wild shape ability.
Now, first of all I'd like to point out that I don't like to impose random restrictions just for the sake of it. However, he's the only tier 1 in the party and it shows. I already struggle all the time trying to create challenging encounters.
I tried to make him see that without putting a bit of a damper on him, things get really hard for the other. (Last time I put them against something that might harm the druid a bit I almost killed half of the rest of the party) But he either won't see it or he doesn't care.
After a while I managed, mostly, to limit his regular wild shape options to animals whose habitat he's been in for at least some time. (And that just means no ice or water habitat creatures)

However now he's nearing level 12. And he's said that he intends to take the dragon wild shape feat. Which is fine, in itself. Small or medium dragon, not remarkable physical scores. Realtively weak breath weapons with reachage time. The most useful things would be Armor, Immunities, and movement speeds. After all, I thought, how many dragons does he want to turn into? A handful? Apparently not. He approached me and said that he thought 3-4 dragons from his previous life plus one per level. Which means all the classic true dragons and then some.

If we were still talking about animals, I'd grant him that yes, as a druid and with high knowledge(nature) he should be entitled to a wide range of options. Which I allowed. But Dragons? Not so much.

So, am I being unreasonable? How should I handle it and how many dragons should he be familiar with?

[Segev]

Druids are powerful, and can unbalance things. However, other than banning that feat (which won't solve the problem you currently have, and may or may not prevent it from becoming worse), there's not a lot you can do without basically asking him to make a new character. At least, not in terms of reining in his power on a mechanical side.

What style of game are you running? Druids are powerful in their element, but there's a lot where wild shape is not convenient to maintain.

Are the other players having fun, or feeling overshadowed? What are their strengths? Are you providing opportunity to shine in areas other than combat?

There's always the option, if you must have combats be challenging across the board, of having things like "The Bandits and their Pet T-Rex" style encounters: something big to challenge the druid while the rest of the party makes sure action deficit doesn't kill him.

[eggynack]

If you're trying to curb his power in the region of dragons, I think a lot depends on which dragons you let him take rather than the number. Quantity is great, especially given that you're not tied into a long wait time like you are with aberration wild shape (because of the casting time on enhance wild shape) but I'd probably prefer, say, a shadow dragon and a li lung over every dragon in core. Core dragons ain't that great. They have alright stats, decent immunities, the typical and strong suite of true dragon capabilities, and maybe a decent ability or two. Draconomicon dragons are better. Particularly the aforementioned shadow dragon and the tarterian dragon. You might want to look at my handbook, really. I have all the good dragons in there, more or less (I found some obscure dragon ones about a week ago that I'm still mulling over), and I might not have a single core one in there. Do that, and also ask specifically what he's planning to do. If he starts rattling off one high power dragon after another, you have a lot more to fear than if he's just pulling reasonable ones, and you might want to tailor how many he can get accordingly. This isn't really a RAW familiarity question, after all, but rather one of balance. Dragon wild shape is very good, and given how precarious the situation is already, it's probably something you should be monitoring more closely than with some blanket number you agreed upon without proper information.

Edit: To be clear about what I'm talking about here, there are concerns relating to dragon wild shape that transcend reasonable movement modes, decent immunities, and true dragon abilities. The shadow dragon has shadow blend, which is a very potent stealth ability, energy drain immunity as a sort of defense that's atypical for druids, and the highest quality version at level 16 grants 29 AC. Tarterian dragons have a freedom of movement effect up all the time, and it makes spare wild shape uses into a weird spontaneous version of that great defensive spell. Li lungs have at-will invisibility, because they're lung dragons, and they can produce earthquakes at a whim and burrow through solid rock because they're this particular kind of lung dragon. And that's just the three I've arbitrarily mentioned. There are a lot of dragons in a lot of books, and some of those dragons have really weird and interesting abilities. If you just want reasonable AC, a flight speed, and maybe an alternate vision mode, desmodu hunting bat is right there, not costing a feat. Dragons let you do other stuff. And also have crazy AC and an amazing flight speed, on occasion, because why not.

[ApologyFestival]

I have always thought that the most elegant and rules-supported way to handle familiarity is to use the Knowledge skill.

Per the Knowledge skill, an appropriate check can identify monsters, and so I would say passes as "familiarity" for the purposes of Wild Shape. A check of 10 + the monster's HD gets a character "a bit of useful information about that monster". It is up to you whether that tiny hurdle constitutes familiarity. In my opinion, 10+HD would imply a passing knowledge--the ability to identify a creature and impart one fun fact about it--whereas familiarity would require a 15+HD or 20+HD check. More exotic creatures would require an even higher check, and this is often reflected in the fluff of their creature entries.

In my campaign, I ask that polymorphers be able to pass these checks on a take 10, without using any temporary buffs. That is, they must show that their character truly has good knowledge of a creature.

If the druid in question has poor Knowledge (Arcana), then restrict their access to only the core dragons. If the player has no Knowledge (Arcana), then rule it out entirely, their character knows diddly squat about dragons. If the player intends to draw on knowledge from past lives (which when used in this manner is, frankly, a great example of a player powergaming their backstory) then the very least they can do is show that in their character's knowledge skills. Not just arcana, but all of them. If the player hasn't invested in most or all of the knowledge skills, I would be not let them pull memories-of-the-past nonsense.

[Bronk]

Hi.

So, am I being unreasonable? How should I handle it and how many dragons should he be familiar with?

A little bit? I mean, you let him play a druid in the first place. The rules you've come up with to restrict his wild shape list is arbitrary, and it seems like it might not be compatible with this new feat. Once he takes the feat he can be any dragon he qualifies for, after all.

The only RAW way to restrict a druid's Wild Shape list is to restrict the books they have access to. Otherwise, the most you can do RAW is to restrict 'familiarity' to creatures they can succeed on knowledge checks. In the case of dragons, that would be 'Knowledge Arcana', so have him take ranks in that.

As for the power level of the game, maybe you could elaborate on what the other players characters are. Have you tried distracting the druid with a single tough monster as was mentioned before, or lots of small fry that the others can pick off at the same rate?

[Elkad]

Let him take the feat.
Then have actual dragons show up and demand he stop impersonating dragons.
Let him retrain the feat next level. (or make him pay for a shuffle)

[AnachroNinja]

Restrict him to the core dragons until and unless he actually encounters and interacts with any other dragons. It won't be much stronger or weaker then what he's doing currently, which is pretty much the best you can hope for at this point.

That said, no you're not being unreasonable. The rules for familiarity are vague as hell. You'd be within reason to say he had to personally encounter and taxidermy anything he wants to wild shape into if you really felt like it. He clearly understands that he is unbalancing the game and refuses to rein it in on how own. At this point it is your responsibility as DM to take steps to do it for him, as fairly and reasonably as possible. It sounds like you've mostly done that.

Just remember that whatever restrictions you do place on the dragon wild shape, tell him BEFORE he takes the feat. Don't hit him with the nerf stick afterwards unless you can't help it. I'd warn you to watch out for frozen wild shape as well, but I'm guessing his lack of familiarity with Arctic creatures is why he's going dragon in the first place.

Good luck

[eggynack]

I'd warn you to watch out for frozen wild shape as well, but I'm guessing his lack of familiarity with Arctic creatures is why he's going dragon in the first place.

I don't think frozen is all that impressive, personally. It's a feat that only really comes online at level 15, with cryohydra form, and by that point you have access to dire tortoise form through standard wild shape, which, when combined with casting, is arguably better. There're a few other forms, including a rare couple not directly mentioned in the feat's short list, but those forms aren't that interesting. Aberration, dragon, and exalted all strike me as significantly better.

[AnachroNinja]

I don't think frozen is all that impressive, personally. It's a feat that only really comes online at level 15, with cryohydra form, and by that point you have access to dire tortoise form through standard wild shape, which, when combined with casting, is arguably better. There're a few other forms, including a rare couple not directly mentioned in the feat's short list, but those forms aren't that interesting. Aberration, dragon, and exalted all strike me as significantly better.

Cryphydra is pretty much what I had in mind. It's exactly the form type that tends to appeal to certain kinds of power gamers, speaking from my own experience as a sometimes power gamer... Lol.

Edit: Also why would he need to wait until 15 to use cryphydra?

[Keral]

First of all, thank you.


What style of game are you running? Druids are powerful in their element, but there's a lot where wild shape is not convenient to maintain.

Are the other players having fun, or feeling overshadowed? What are their strengths? Are you providing opportunity to shine in areas other than combat?

There's always the option, if you must have combats be challenging across the board, of having things like "The Bandits and their Pet T-Rex" style encounters: something big to challenge the druid while the rest of the party makes sure action deficit doesn't kill him.

It's not something overtly complex. It's mainly go there kill that kind of quests. I tried to design some more "complicated" plots but either I'm really bad at it or that's not really their cup of tea.
I believe most of them are still having fun. Tho I can usually tell it irks them a bit when the druid could most of the time single handedly win an encounter. The only one who I feel is not is the cleric, which should in theory be quite powerful himself, but the player just doesn't have the caster mindset, in my opinion. I offered him to make him change, but he's stubborn.
Other than that the party consists in a skirmish ranger, which may not be terribly versatile, but I gave him a good weapon and he easily deals 40-50 damage a round if the enemies don't have particular reductions.
A thrall of juiblex with monk levels. Not too powerful still but as soon as he too gets to level 12 he can polymorph and increase his damage output.
And a cleric wizard true necromancer. Which, as a wizard, should make him tier 1 as the druid, Except that he's playing it much more idk, subdued. After all we did agree at the beginning not to make this a high powered campaign.

As for "the bandits and the pet t-rex" style encounters. It probably won't work. The druid is also kinda a coward. Despite being the strongest is also the first to flee in the situation turns dire. It has already happened.


If you're trying to curb his power in the region of dragons, I think a lot depends on which dragons you let him take rather than the number.
I had't even considered those kind of dragons. *facepalm*


I have always thought that the most elegant and rules-supported way to handle familiarity is to use the Knowledge skill.

That seems interesting. After all, the knowledge skill does say that 10+HD let's you remember a bit of useful information about that monster. Considering that familiarity should mean a bit more than "a bit of useful information". It would be reasonable to ask him a 15+HD check.
Except he has currently no ranks in Arcana, and I can already hear him bitching about it. *sigh*


Let him take the feat.
Then have actual dragons show up and demand he stop impersonating dragons.
Let him retrain the feat next level. (or make him pay for a shuffle)
I think that would get books thrown at me. Except that it would still be a nice plot hook. A dragon showing up demanding him to prove himself worthy to continue impersonating them. I might steal this :P



Just remember that whatever restrictions you do place on the dragon wild shape, tell him BEFORE he takes the feat. Don't hit him with the nerf stick afterwards unless you can't help it. I'd warn you to watch out for frozen wild shape as well, but I'm guessing his lack of familiarity with Arctic creatures is why he's going dragon in the first place.

Yes, we're still a whole level away before level 12. It'll take us at least a month. So there's plenty time to come up with solutions and to warn him. I think he was considering frozen wild shape. but that was before we argued about the regular wild shaping options. In his background he told me he's lived in deserts and temperate forests. And while I've allowed him animals from all other environments, I draw a line at pulling arctic creature out of his arse when he's supposedly lived in a desert for most of his life. And even then,it's not like I did flat out prohibit it. I told him that if he wanted he could do research on it and, given time, learn enough for a couple of them.



Anyhow, thanks again for your insights. I think I'll opt for the knowledge check, and see how it goes. I really should have thought of that :P

[eggynack]

And a cleric wizard true necromancer. Which, as a wizard, should make him tier 1 as the druid.
Not necessarily. True necromancer is really bad. It's like a mystic theurge, but significantly worse because of the weird progression. Low tier two seems likely, because you're just so many spell levels behind, say, a sorcerer.

[Lormador]

This is an OOC issue (a character more powerful than the rest of the party), and it demands an OOC solution. It should be easy.

Discuss the situation with the druid's player. A responsible player will be open to this discussion. Suggest allowing the player the roleplaying flavor that he wants while nerfing the crunch to help address the problem.

It is unwise to attempt to use IG punishments to balance a feat that's a bit over the edge. This wouldn't address the underlying problem anyway.

EDIT: for the Druids in my games, I ask them to provide some IG RP for their creature choices and summons. They are happy to cooperate.

[Keral]

This is an OOC issue (a character more powerful than the rest of the party), and it demands an OOC solution. It should be easy.

Discuss the situation with the druid's player. A responsible player will be open to this discussion. Suggest allowing the player the roleplaying flavor that he wants while nerfing the crunch to help address the problem.

It is unwise to attempt to use IG punishments to balance a feat that's a bit over the edge. This wouldn't address the underlying problem anyway.

EDIT: for the Druids in my games, I ask them to provide some IG RP for their creature choices and summons. They are happy to cooperate.

I tried that. But it has been pointless.

[eggynack]

Cryphydra is pretty much what I had in mind. It's exactly the form type that tends to appeal to certain kinds of power gamers, speaking from my own experience as a sometimes power gamer... Lol.

Edit: Also why would he need to wait until 15 to use cryphydra?
Cryohydra is a huge form, and 15 is when you get huge. You can pick up some wild shape advancement stuff, the skin of kaletor, wild shape amulet, and trappings of the beast, mostly, but those apply equally to dire tortoise form. I'm not saying frozen wild shape is bad. A cryohydra's combat abilities are amazing. But said form comes online late enough that standard forms are pretty competitive with it, and a more caster oriented druid, which is probably as powerful as druidry gets, is going to probably be better off with those other forms. And this is more or less the only form you get. Hoary steed (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/hoaryHunter.htm) is alright, but it's nothing all that special.

This is an OOC issue (a character more powerful than the rest of the party), and it demands an OOC solution. It should be easy.
A too powerful character seems like at least partially an in-game issue. A nerf is likely occurring somewhere, whether it's in this odd familiarity form, or some other form. Either way, if what the druid is already doing is too good, something like a song dragon, with its always on true seeing, is probably too much.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Which dragon am I missing that makes dragon wild shape worth the feat? 'Cause I'm not seeing it.

[eggynack]

Which dragon am I missing that makes dragon wild shape worth the feat? 'Cause I'm not seeing it.
I have a whole list in my handbook, and I've been listing some of those throughout this thread. Like, I just mentioned song dragon, which offers always on true seeing, and deep dragon does the same. That's pretty useful. Mist dragon has a type of gaseous form that's compatible with casting, the dzalmus has enchantment immunity, the mercury dragon has crazy speed and AC, the gem dragons have that limited planeshift thing, the aforementioned shadow dragon and tarterian dragon have shadow blend (and a cool breath weapon) and always on freedom of movement respectively, and the tome dragon has a metamagic cost reduction ability. I think that stuff is worth a feat.

Edit: Also, tossing this out into the world because it's a thing I've been poking at lately, the wurms from dragon magazine 296, from roughly page 82, are pretty interesting. A bit dubious, but their breath weapons are really cool. Not, like, make a previously bad feat worth taking cool, but certainly make a previously good feat a little better cool. Whole thing is weirdly DM permission based, including three spells that let you summon them. It's interesting.

[Ashtagon]

My rule of thumb for wildshape is based on familiarity as the keyword. Familiar literally means as if a family member.

I grant them one form per class level appropriate to the terrain he spent the last level in and level appropriate otherwise choosable byou the player. Feats granting new wild shape forms grant an additional former so it can be used out of the box.

An more forms require the character to spend a day mooching around with the creature type. He may need to go searching if they live remotely.

[AnachroNinja]

Cryohydra is a huge form, and 15 is when you get huge. You can pick up some wild shape advancement stuff, the skin of kaletor, wild shape amulet, and trappings of the beast, mostly, but those apply equally to dire tortoise form.

Huh you're right. I am always using MoMF and boosters if I'm wild shaping or the Swift Hunter variant if I'm not so I wasn't thinking it thru.

It's worth noting that the knowledge check method is pretty pointless because they quickly become trivial. Not only that but how do you plan to apply them to dragons? If I can make my knowledge check for a wyrmling blue dragon, do I somehow not know about older ones? Do I know of every dragon below the age category I match the DC for? Most of the dragon forms are low HAD anyway so it'll be pretty easy even if he doesn't just grab Collector of Stories next level.

[Twurps]

Which dragon am I missing that makes dragon wild shape worth the feat? 'Cause I'm not seeing it.

What makes it worth it for me is the (ex) and (su) abilities that come with the forms you take. Normal wild shape doesn't do that. (Master of many forms has (ex) but no spellcasting progression)

to be fair, I'm using it on a wildshaping ranger (Cause a druid would wreck our party as well). Not having a full druid spell-list makes the versatility of this feat really worth it.

[Kelb_Panthera]

What makes it worth it for me is the (ex) and (su) abilities that come with the forms you take. Normal wild shape doesn't do that. (Master of many forms has (ex) but no spellcasting progression)

to be fair, I'm using it on a wildshaping ranger (Cause a druid would wreck our party as well). Not having a full druid spell-list makes the versatility of this feat really worth it.

To be fair, normal wild shape does give you the extraordinary attack modes of the assumed form, such as pounce or constrict, just not the extraordinary special qualities.

[eggynack]

Huh you're right. I am always using MoMF and boosters if I'm wild shaping or the Swift Hunter variant if I'm not so I wasn't thinking it thru.
The real difference in that scenario, I think, is that you lack most spells, rather than that you're advancing faster. After all, it's not that cryohydra comes late, but that it comes at the same time as a bunch of other stuff. If you're not casting spells though, the value of dire tortoise goes down quite a bit, because your actions aren't as loaded with power. Wild shape on a druid often takes the form of a support ability, the passive side of the strange near-gestalt that is the druid. On a not-druid though, wild shape is more your active side, and so a really active form like cryohydra is better.


to be fair, I'm using it on a wildshaping ranger (Cause a druid would wreck our party as well). Not having a full druid spell-list makes the versatility of this feat really worth it.
Not sure if it's actually better on a not-druid. Yes, you're getting more abilities that you wouldn't have otherwise, but a lot of the abilities you get are defensive in nature. Dragon forms are usually not that great at hitting stuff in the face, so you want an offense external to the forms you're taking on. Maybe the best way to think of it is different rather than better or worse. What druids get from a deep dragon's true seeing is the ability to spot the enemy so you can nail them with a spell. What rangers get from that ability is, y'know, the simple utility of seeing true where you otherwise couldn't.

Edit:
To be fair, normal wild shape does give you the extraordinary attack modes of the assumed form, such as pounce or constrict, just not the extraordinary special qualities.
Sure, but the special qualities are often the coolest part of a creature, especially when you leave behind the more mundane animals to work with plants, or even aberrations. I think that most cool dragon stuff is in the Su stuff specifically though. It's all a part of that active/passive distinction I was making above. Special attacks are more active, so they're the kinda thing you wind up supporting with your spells, while special qualities are more passive, so they're the kinda things that wind up supporting your spells. The latter strikes me as preferable.