Half-orc Rogue, do it the easy way?

[GhorrinRedblade]

Hi there fellow Playgrounders,

Tomorrow night, my DM is running a one-off adventure, for which our regular characters will not be used, so my Tiefling EK will be riding the bench tomorrow. Character level for the new guys will be six.

The character I'm planning on using is a half-orc Rogue. The plan is for me to make a grappling build, in conjunction with my friend's Paladin. That character has the Shield Master feat, and the general idea is once he puts them on the ground, I grab 'em and stab ‘em. I'm going to take first level as Fighter, then multiclass into Rogue the rest of the way so that I have medium armor proficiency right from the jump.

It's here that my seven-year-old son enters this story. With his growing love of numbers and math, he found the idea of rolling four dice and keeping the best three numbers an interesting challenge. He asked if he could roll a set of ability scores for me. The results ended up being 17, 17, 13, 13, 12, 12. Not too shabby for the kid's for set of ability scores, eh? :-)

Now, my DM has not yet greenlit this set of scores. It's possible he might not, as he likes to have all dice rolls happen in person at the table. But for the sake of argument let's say he does; this can totally work for a Str-based Rogue. Place the 17s in Str and Con, Dex gets one of the 13s, and at level 4 bump both Str and Dex. Presto, one big beefy dude ready to grab you and pull you into a dark alley to give you a reeeeeeally bad day.

Anyone see any different ways to make that set of ability scores work? Is there a way to even make him a pure Dex-based build? If I tried doing that, I could get rid of the fighter level. The lowest Str he'd have in that scenario is a 14; couple that with his Expertise ability and it would mean he was “just” good at grappling, as opposed to being an iron-handed terror.

If anyone has any constructive feedback, I'm all ears.

Have a great Friday.

Ghorrin Redblade

[N810]

hmmm with those rolls, maybe a touch of barbarian, they get advantage in strength roll while raging.
It also works well with 1/2 orks.

[GhorrinRedblade]

hmmm with those rolls, maybe a touch of barbarian, they get advantage in strength roll while raging.
It also works well with 1/2 orks.

I certainly see where you're going with that, but for now, assume the only MC on the figurative table is some Fighter.

[JellyPooga]

If it's a grapple build you want, then Barbarian 5/Rogue 1 is the way to go. Getting advantage on Athletics in Rage, plus Expertise means you can pretty much out-grapple anything in the Monster Manual.

Str: 17 +2 (Race) +1 (ASI) = 20 (max. huzzah!)
Dex: 13 +1 (ASI) = 14 (max med armour. huzzah!)
Con: 17 +1 (Race) = 18 (nearly max. huzzah!)
Int/Wis/Cha: Who cares?

Athletics = +3 (prof) +3 (Expertise) +5 (Str) = +11 with advantage
Extra Attack means you can Grapple and pound someone in the same turn.

An interesting alternative would be Valour Bard 6. You still get medium armour proficiency, martial weapon proficiency, Extra Attack and Expertise. You can get Advantage on Athletics checks via Enhance Ability. PLUS, you get to play with all the other tricks a level 6 full-caster can pull; might be handy for a one-shot adventure where your grappletastic-ness might not get a chance to shine...

[GhorrinRedblade]

If it's a grapple build you want, then Barbarian 5/Rogue 1 is the way to go...

Again, I get how the numbers stack up and I appreciate the suggestions, but it's not that I want "a grapple build", as much as I want "a Rogue that sometimes grapples".

[JellyPooga]

Again, I get how the numbers stack up and I appreciate the suggestions, but it's not that I want "a grapple build", as much as I want "a Rogue that sometimes grapples".

If it's a Rogue you want, then I wouldn't bother with the Fighter dip. I'd just go straight Arcane Trickster 6. Dipping Fighter just for Medium Armour is a waste of time (+1 AC! Woo!) and it's not like you'll get much out of the additional weapon proficiencies. Using a Shield means you're not getting the most out of grapples (if anything at all...you need that free hand), so again, the Fighter dip isn't working for you. The Shield spell will more than take care of any AC issues you'll have as an Arcane Trickster and Expertise in Athletic pretty much makes you a better grappler than anything on the table, whether you get Advantage or not.

I'd go Str:20, Dex:18, Con:14, Int/Wis/Cha: whatever.

Only take buff spells as AT, so you're not worried about Int. Studded Leather will give you AC: 16 (21 with Shield spell), compared to 17 (22) with Half-plate. More than adequate.

The biggest point is that you'll also have Expertise in 4 skills instead of only 2, allowing you to be the go-to guy for whatever needs doing. Why not shove Expertise in Intimidation? You've got the proficiency from Half-Orc, so you might as well capitalise on it! Athletics, Intimidation, Perception and Stealth is a great general-purpose array, but you could even buck the trend and play a Half-Orc Historian (be sure to have some spectacles tucked away for the opportune moment!), or if you do go Arcane Trickster you can out-Arcana the Wizard perhaps (in a weird juxtaposition of roles, the high strength Half-Orc Rogue would be the "bookish nerd", knowing all the theory, compared to the more practically inclined "jock" Wizard, who busts out the raw power without really knowing so much of the "why" behind it).

[Quoxis]

I certainly see where you're going with that, but for now, assume the only MC on the figurative table is some Fighter.

...and why is that? House rule? Fear that it might get too complex?
Because barbarian is an excellent MC for rogue. Use finesse weapons with strength (works just as well) and go at least 2 levels barb for the following benefits:
- reckless attack gives you advantage on melee attacks-> you can sneak attack on every (first) attack per round
- unarmored defense (17 dex, 17+1 con makes 10+3+4=17 ac; that's as much as half-plate, the best medium armor, and it doesn't cost you anything nor does it give disadvantage on sneaking; if you go 13 dex and 17+1 con you still have 10+1+4=15, just as much as your normal medium armor from the starting equipment would give you)
- rage: advantage on str checks (including grappling), bonus damage on each str attack and resistence to non-magic weapon damage

Also, if i may say so, if your OP literally says "the plan is for me to make a grapple build", maybe don't smack down people that want to give advice on a grapple build. Just sayin'.

If you want to keep away from barb and see fighter as the only mc option, there's a build that comes to mind:
Go fighter 4 or 5 (depending on whether you want cunning action or extra attack), grab the "tavern brawler" feat, and choose the battle master subclass. As your maneuvers, take trip attack and two others of choice.

The strategy is to attack with an improv weapon (like a shield, your rapier's hilt or scabbard or the leg of a goblin you just ripped apart), expend a die for the trip attack, knocking the target prone, and as a bonus action grapple the bastard.
The target is now grappled which makes it unable to move, and as you need movement to stand up, it's effectively pinned to the ground, granting advantage on melee attacks on it as long as it can't break the grapple. You can the attack it again if you went fighter 5, by using a finesse weapon you'll automatically deal sneak damage btw, or you wait for the paladin to smite with advantage.

If you now insist on taking exactly 1 level of fighter and 5 rogue, i can't help you. You'll want to take the swashbuckler subclass, but that aside you laid out how the build is as viable as it gets.

[GhorrinRedblade]

...and why is that? House rule? Fear that it might get too complex?

Nothing of that sort, that's just how I see the guy in my head.


Also, if i may say so, if your OP literally says "the plan is for me to make a grapple build", maybe don't smack down people that want to give advice on a grapple build. Just sayin'.

I certainly didn't meant any part of those comments to come across as a "smackdown". I was just trying to redirect the conversation, and if it was interpreted as anything harsher than that, my apologies for any and all confusion caused by my OP's wording (that post was written Johnny-Cash-style, "one piece at a time", and I didn't get a chance to give it a once-over for clarity before I posted).

So let me try and recap/refocus/reduce confusion/tension/etc.

I want to play a Rogue (I had a Thief in mind specifically, but I dunno, maybe there's something to your Swashbuckler suggestion, I don't have SCAG so it didn't occur to me), with either all levels in Rogue or just a quick dip in something else. Barbarian doesn't fit the guy in my head, so if I'm going to dip it's in Fighter. In doing so, I was planning on using Expertise in conjunction with higher Str to make grappling one of the tools in his toolbox.

Your Battle Master idea sounds pretty good, and if I stay with this guy going forward (it's a possibility), I was planning on exactly that idea to round out his Fighter side. But at this point I think I want to emphasize Rogue.

I really hope no one took my responses the wrong way, and I'm sorry if anyone was put off; sure as hell wasn't my intent. I do appreciate the time taken, even if I don't use a given idea this time, it's grist for the mill in the future...

Ghorrin Redblade

[JellyPooga]

I want to play a Rogue (I had a Thief in mind specifically, but I dunno, maybe there's something to your Swashbuckler suggestion, I don't have SCAG so it didn't occur to me)

I would tend to avoid Swashbuckler for the kind of build you're looking at. It's somewhat reliant on Charisma being halfway decent to shine and although you've got a good overall array there, it's still relatively generalised. If you were willing to switch to Half-Elf (Str/Dex/Con/Cha = 18/14/18/16 after racials and ASI, assuming you're set on the dip for Medium armour, otherwise I'd switch Dex and Con) instead of Half-Orc, then Swashbuckler might be a good call, but otherwise...not so much IMO.

As for Thief, it's...not that great until you hit level 13 (and even then only if you luck out with magic items). If you're set on the non-magical route, it's probably better for a general-purpose Rogue than Assassin, but Arcane Trickster is the one that really opens up doors as far as versatility goes and I can't recommend it enough. Don't get hung up on lack of Intelligence; there's more than enough spells to choose from that don't have any requirement for Int at all.

[Quoxis]

In that case, sorry for taking it the wrong way.

I appreciate that you picture a character and build your class around that instead of simply powergaming (i'm the opposite, i'm just fascinated by thinking about the possible synergies and how they'd play out).

The swashbuckler is a nice subclass for melee rogues, giving you the chance to disable an enemy you attacked from making opportunity attacks for the rest of your turn(so you can run away without disengaging, effectively even running up to the opponent, attacking, then taking the dash bonus action to get further away), letting you add your charisma modifier to initiative rolls (would probably only be a 1 in your case, but hey, better than nothing) and lifting the restrictions on sneak attack (you get sneak attack if there's only your enemy and no other creature within 5ft of you, the rest is still possible), all on level 3.
Might fit your character, and i made sure not to copy&paste, so i hope i didn't violate the copyright.

[JellyPooga]

Why I don't recommend Swashbuckler;

the chance to disable an enemy you attacked from making opportunity attacks for the rest of your turn(so you can run away without disengaging
If you're thinking of grappling, you won't be presenting OA's.

letting you add your charisma modifier to initiative rolls (would probably only be a 1 in your case, but hey, better than nothing)
+1 is better than nothing, but is certainly nothing to shout about

and lifting the restrictions on sneak attack
If you're double-teaming with your Paladin buddy, this isn't an issue.

Not trying to completely do-down your idea Quoxis; it just doesn't appear (to me) to fit what the OP is going for.

edit: then again, I initially thought he wanted a grapple-build...shows what I know :smallwink:

[MrStabby]

Have you considered the shield master feat and going for shoves instead of grapples?

Shove is still an athletics check so expertise still helps, it only takes your bonus action with the feat so still lets you sneak attack. Prone grants advantage enabling sneak attack. Shield is not bad for a rogue as finesse weapons are all one handed.

If you want a burly bully of a fighter who is versatile and able to pull tricks in combat I can recommend this.

[ChainsawFlwrcld]

I have been playing this general character concept for a while now in a monthly game. The Barbarian that was supposed to be the tank for the group died an early death and came back as a druid so I became the tank for the group so I had to retool my path by adding 1 extra level of fighter for an extra ASI.

My Half-Orc took rogue at first level to get the skills and expertise (athletics and stealth) then switched to fighter for the next 6 levels so I could get 2 ASI and two attacks. Now I'm just leveling up as a swashbuckler so I can get the sneak attack without the squishy casters coming too close. For the fighting style I took the two weapon fighting so I can get my STR bonus to my short sward attacks on both hands. ASI #1 Medium Armor Master for Half Plate without stealth disadvantage and a extra+1 from my Dex to AC. ASI #2 went to Max strength out. I went Battle master with Trip, Push, and Maneuvering attacks so I would have some crowd control.

I actually enjoy this build quite a lot.

[GhorrinRedblade]

edit: then again, I initially thought he wanted a grapple-build...shows what I know :smallwink:

/embarrassed Sorry, man.

Quoxis, on this particular character I'm not looking to have spells, so it was down to Thief or Assassin. I chose Thief mainly to try and have some fun with Fast Hands, which looks fun. I'm sort of envisioning a half-orc version of Michael Weston or John Reese, "tough guy trying to make amends with the world" stuff.

(I know my DM, and if I took Assassin, he'd assume it was all some sort of "powergaming" move, and then he'll say something like, "You should try role-playing intead of roll-playing", and then, friend or no, I will have to suppress the urge to drive a die into his ear with a tack hammer. I'm thinking that one d10 that's marked as a "tens" die; who uses that...?)

Have a great day!

[JellyPooga]

I rag on low-level Thief a bit, but it is a lot of fun.

With Str 18 and Dex 14, you can clear 20ft (around 6m) with a running jump...that's a pretty significant distance to leap without having to make a die roll (or expend spell resources on Fly).

Fast-Hands is great for getting yourself out of a pickle, especially if your GM is a stickler for Object Manipulation rules. Combined with the Healer Feat, it turns you into a decent combat medic too.

[GhorrinRedblade]

I rag on low-level Thief a bit, but it is a lot of fun.

With Str 18 and Dex 14, you can clear 20ft (around 6m) with a running jump...that's a pretty significant distance to leap without having to make a die roll (or expend spell resources on Fly).

Hah, I can see me making that move across a chasm or something, and turning to my buddy's paladin. "Nyeh. Moradin says you can take the long way ar-OUCH!!!" (my guy gets a light hammer thrown at him for his smart-mouthing)

[djreynolds]

I'm currently running a 7th level battlemaster/ 5 level swashbuckler. I have 10 in charisma, oh well. I do have a sun blade, finesse, the weapon you must obtain.
20/13/16/10/10/10
Shield master and max strength ... waiting on resilient wisdom. In hind sight I like monster hunter better for save purposes.

Anyhow, he is a wrecking machine. +13 to my athletics check... not much is standing. Shove ,stab and repeat. Use you maneuvers like menacing and sweeping and riposte and the occasional precision or disarm.

Stick with plate and shield and for now a rapier or short sword.... and kill... the easy way.

Note, 12 rogue/ 8 fighter is where I'm headed.

[Quoxis]

Why I don't recommend Swashbuckler;

If you're thinking of grappling, you won't be presenting OA's.

edit: then again, I initially thought he wanted a grapple-build...shows what I know :smallwink:

That's it, nobody knows what exactly Mr. Redblade wants, so i changed course from optimization to simply showing alternate paths.
That grappling doesn't provoke opportunity attacks is something i know, don't worry, but as he later corrected, he wants a rogue that sometimes grapples. The rest of the time he'll likely want to either shoot or stab the bad guy, and while not useful for the former, the latter fighting style (especially if two weapon fighting is considered) profits from the "disengage light".

[Quoxis]

/embarrassed Sorry, man.

Quoxis, on this particular character I'm not looking to have spells, so it was down to Thief or Assassin. I chose Thief mainly to try and have some fun with Fast Hands, which looks fun. I'm sort of envisioning a half-orc version of Michael Weston or John Reese, "tough guy trying to make amends with the world" stuff.

(I know my DM, and if I took Assassin, he'd assume it was all some sort of "powergaming" move, and then he'll say something like, "You should try role-playing intead of roll-playing", and then, friend or no, I will have to suppress the urge to drive a die into his ear with a tack hammer. I'm thinking that one d10 that's marked as a "tens" die; who uses that...?)

Have a great day!

Just saying, the guy suggesting the only magical alternative, the arcane trickster, was JellyPooga, not me. I'm more of a martial class fan myself. And as i said, i just pointed out what the swashbuckler can do, as you said you don't know the subclass. Feel free to take or leave it, i don't judge.

(And denying you to take a subclass you like without being obvious only chosen for synergy or whatever "munchkin"ery is is just a d*ck move, not good GM-ing.)

Actually: what exactly do you want, Mr. Redblade?
You have a build in mind, want to take advice neither in multiclassing, nor in deciding the subtypes, you state your idea is to be good at grappling, yet you don't want to do it often and don't accept any ideas helping you to grapple better, except the one you already had.
I honestly must admit that i don't know what you expected to get here.

[GhorrinRedblade]

(looks up-thread)

Hmmph. It was Jelly that talked about the Thief being a decent "general practicioner"; at the time I posted I had it in my head it was you. This is what I get for trying to do this stuff and working at the same time. Bear with me; I'm a decent guy, just flighty sometimes. :)

And I do appreciate the walk-through on the Swashbuckler. TYVM

EDIT: we looks like we edited past each other the first time. As for "what do I want," if I'm being honest I probably wasn't very clear on that myself eight hours ago. I knew what I planned to do, and while there are some mechanically better options out there, many of them don't quite fit into the outline of the guy in my mind. Your idea of taking the fighter into Battlemaster actually makes a lot of sense, and if I stick with this guy past this single adventure, I could easily see developing him along those lines. But at his outset, I think I'm going to give more heft to the Rogue side, and take it from there.

Again, thank you for your time. Even if I sound like a stubborn doofus.

[djreynolds]

I played a melee Arcane trickster, coupled with mirror image, blur, and the shield spell. Nasty melee opponent.
He was strength based mountain dwarf. It works.
Also barbarian is a good combo with rogue... imagine half damage from rage and as a reaction with uncanny dodge once a turn halving that.

Also reckless attack pairs well with sneak attacking for thieves and assassins.

I prefer swashbuckler really for radish audacity, but with shield master and athletic you can always make your own advantage.

The opportunities are endless at the end of the day. I prefer fighter because it's quicker, and I just like fighters

We'll post your build and enjoy, it sounds exciting. Also their is a build by chubby rain called the iron scoundrel... check it out.

Good luck

[GhorrinRedblade]

Just a follow-up: the Fighter 1/Rogue (Thief) 5 worked as well as could be hoped for. One of the things I like about this approach is that having my buddy's paladin be my setup man is that it keeps that player more engaged; I think sometimes he doesn't see how he's contributing, but this made it quite clear.

Fun Things I Have Grappled:
Owlbear (2, but not both at the same time, I'm not that good (yet)! :smallwink: )
Gorgon ("Rodeo!")

On Friay I was thinking that Quoxis' suggestion to go Battlemaster and pick up Tavern Brawler felt like the way to go. Confirmed after play; assuming I stick with this character, that'll be the next three levels. /hat_tip

Hope all had a great weekend.