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Ammutseba
2017-02-03, 05:16 PM
I have a campaign setting that uses the Elder Evils supplement to combine most of the apocalyptic events into a single awful world. As a result of what was released, gods abandoned the world. Divine magic no longer functions. Arcane magic is completely unreliable. So, the people of the world have found alternative methods of tapping into magic. Pact magic, Kyuss worms, incarnum, psionics and truenames.

Now, I'm putting crunch to fluff. The normal "Spells" feature won't be available for bards, clerics, paladins, sorcerers, beguilers, dread necromancers, duskblades, spirit shamans and wizards. Instead, I want each of those above methods to be available as a sort of ACF that goes in the place of Spells. The spell lists won't change, just the methods of getting the spells, and the rules that surround preparing, modifying and casting them. Naturally, I'd like each alternative feature to be easily evocative of its source.

I'm starting with worm magic, modeled after the shadowcaster's spell-equivalent feature. I turned "up" the feature a bit, after reviewing the source material and found it to be exceptionally under par. This is what I have now; it's mostly mechanics, since fluff can be filled in later. I'm curious about what it needs.

You do not cast spells as other classes do, but evoke powers called “squirms,” which are born of mystical worms that inhabit your body. You know two squirms at 1st level and gain two additional squirms at every class level. You can only learn squirms of a new level if you have learned at least four squirms of a previous level. You select your squirms from your class’s spell list, learning any spell of a level available to you in the form of a squirm. A squirm’s effective spell level is the same as its equivalent spell’s level.

When you are capable of casting only apprentice squirms, your squirms are spell-like abilities. They have somatic components, and are subject to armor-based spell failure chance from medium and heavy armor as if they were arcane spells.

At 7th level, your squirms of up to 3rd level no longer require somatic components and are no longer subject to armor-based spell failure chance. When you reach 13th level, squirms of up to 6th level no longer require somatic components and are no longer subject to armor-based spell failure chance, and your squirms of 3rd level and below become supernatural abilities.

You can use each squirm you know a certain number of times per day depending on whether it is a spell-like ability (two times), or a supernatural ability (three times). Unlike spellcasters, you don’t get bonus squirms for a high ability score. Instead, you can learn a squirm more than once. Each time you relearn a squirm, you gain another set of uses of that squirm per day. Although you do not prepare spells, you must rest for 8 hours each day to regain your use of squirms just as a sorcerer or bard must rest and meditate to regain use of spell slots.

Despite that your squirms are not spells, you may apply metamagic feats to them as though they were spells. Applying any number of metamagic feats to a squirm changes the action required to use it from a standard action to a full-round action, and increases its effective spell level as if it were a spell.

In order to cast a squirm, you must have a Strength score of at least 10 + the squirm’s level. The save DC for your squirms equals 10 + squirm level + your Str modifier. Even though you do not “cast spells” in the traditional sense, your levels in this class count for the purpose of determining your overall caster level.

aimlessPolymath
2017-02-03, 09:44 PM
I have a campaign setting that uses the Elder Evils supplement to combine most of the apocalyptic events into a single awful world.
This is an amazing premise for a campaign and I want to know more.


Instead, I want each of those above methods to be available as a sort of ACF that goes in the place of Spells. The spell lists won't change, just the methods of getting the spells, and the rules that surround preparing, modifying and casting them.
Interesting. Note that in some cases (sorcerer vs. wizard), the only thing which distinguishes the class is the method of gaining spells. Spirit Shaman is especially notable here, since it has such a distinct method of spellcasting.



(Squirm rules)
I skimmed most of the squirm wording, because it's so similar to shadowcasting, but it looks like the main difference is you get two squirms per level instead of one mystery, you get them from your class list, and you start out with two uses instead of one. Is this right?

Based on your given rates of gain, it looks like you will know as many spells as a wizard does from leveling, but cast them many, many more times. You will have around 4 spells of each level, and can cast them around 2-3 times per day. This is a ridiculous number of spells per day. While you pay significantly in flexibility, you will have more spells per day than a sorcerer by approximately a factor of 1.5-2, while having around as many spells known, and more of higher level.


Unlike spellcasters, you don’t get bonus squirms for a high ability score. Instead, you can learn a squirm more than once. Each time you relearn a squirm, you gain another set of uses of that squirm per day.
I doubt this will be used unless a particular spell is needed on a common basis to make a build work- there's more to be had from versatility.

On Strength-based spellcasting: It's something I haven't seen before or explained well. Fluff-wise, why is physical muscle power the most important deciding factor for casting squirms? If it's powered by bodily toughness, I might expect Constitution to be the most significant ability score, since it represents how healthy you are (i.e. how much you can do without health risks).

Wording question:

Despite that your squirms are not spells, you may apply metamagic feats to them as though they were spells. Applying any number of metamagic feats to a squirm changes the action required to use it from a standard action to a full-round action, and increases its effective spell level as if it were a spell.
What do you mean by this? It sounds like you can apply any number of metamagic feats to the squirm, at the cost of only increasing the action to use it, which is clearly overpowered. The second half of the second sentence seems to imply that the number is limited by your maximum spell level available, which is more reasonable, but still powerful.

On somatic components:

At 7th level, your squirms of up to 3rd level no longer require somatic components and are no longer subject to armor-based spell failure chance. When you reach 13th level, squirms of up to 6th level no longer require somatic components and are no longer subject to armor-based spell failure chance, and your squirms of 3rd level and below become supernatural abilities.
In general, someone will probably go without armor if they are casting-focused. If they are a combat class, then they will choose a different casting method instead of hobbling themselves.



Two new squirms per level
You may wish to leave in variables to be modified by the specific class it is applied as an ACF to. For example, if you gave this form of casting to a ranger, you should give only one spell learned each level, and would give only one or two casts of that spell per day. Most classes fall into a (4th level spells max starting at level 4) or (9th level spells starting at level 1), leaving the bard and duskblade as odd-ones-out with no equivalents.

Another thing you could do is move away from "the shadowcaster, with different numbers" system by tying in the mechanics with the fluff. For example, a theme of "breeding the worms in your body" would make sense- consider this variant method, for example:


You cast spells by breeding them in your body, in the form of Kyuss Worms, a wretched species which is a vital source of magic in these dark times. At any given time, you host some number of worms. Each worm has a spell associated with it- by destroying the worm, you can cast that spell once as a spell-like ability. Once destroyed, a worm is gone forever. However, each time you sleep at least 8 hours on a night after eating a full dinner, the worms breed again at your direction.

When they do, you may spawn any number of worms which you have not expended yet. Spawning a worm creates a copy of a worm you still have in your pool. However, you may only sustain a limited number of worms at one time. You can sustain worms of various spell levels as marked below:

(Table of spells per day goes here. It is roughly analogous to spells/day plus spells known, perhaps a bit less- around 8 spells for each level at 20th level, maybe. )


A wormcaster would gain one or two new worms with new spells every level, much like in your squirm example.

Wizard equivalent:
Intellect Worm: You host a particularly special type of worm. By dissecting another wormcaster's corpse, you may extract a worm from them. If it is compatible with your spell list, you can immediately integrate it into your body by taking 1 Constitution damage. This destroys the corpse, but the worm becomes part of your pool.

Spontaneous Casting:
Genesis Worm You host a particularly special type of worm. At any time as a free action, you can destroy a worm within your pool to spawn a new worm (a copy of a different worm you possess) of the same or lower level.

This is a variant on prepared casting where by destroying the last worm you possess of a given species, you can cast the spell- essentially removing the spell from your spells known to get one more use out of it. Furthermore, while wizards still have their classic learn-spells-from-others ability, it is kept in check by the fact that each new spell known effectively removes one spell per day. It also has a particularly unique weakness to abilities which eliminate people's spells prepared. One weakness of the variant balance-wise is that someone can prepare only the same spell to effectively increase their spells per day- however, because of the spell-slot system, I expect that they would keep one spell known of each level, and even then, they only have one more spell/level over a sorcerer.

Ammutseba
2017-02-03, 11:13 PM
This is an amazing premise for a campaign and I want to know more.

Well, there is certainly more about it. The world is Astlara, which is much like the worst of all possible worlds, as the presence of multiple world-enders keep one another from completely annihilating any life worth living, but only just barely. It's highly improbable, and as others have pointed out, likely blatantly impossible, but it's a flight of fantasy that I enjoy tinkering with. Some other folks like it, too. :)

Atropus and Ragnorra arrived synchronously, keeping one another in check while playing havoc with the balance of souls in the world. Pandorym escaped and fused with all conscious minds, only to be stymied from killing all gods by the influx of the Far Realm into reality. Leviathan is dead; its skeleton is being used as an unliving bridge to Atropus. Zargon's horn was shattered, killing him and scattering his essence. Father Llymic rules a paradise of his own inside an enormous Cerebrotic Blot, and the Hulks of Zoretha spawned a race in their own image inside a new layer of the world.

The gods abandoned Astlara for their own protection, and only a handful of avatars remained behind. Notably, the avatar of Pelor is the new sun. For many, the Age of Worms is now, as embracing Kyuss is a faster way to relative safety than denying it. From the book, only Sertrous has made no appearance so far, although it's possible its presence is simply more insidious than previously guessed, or that being cut off from the planes by means of "normal" travel has effectively kept out its influence. Given this world's luck, the former seems more likely.

Elves have all but vanished, half-elves are in decline. The fey have become ravenous and haunt our dreams, having little or no place left in the world. Obligatum IX rules the Court of Iron: a militarized, godless monarchy of law without mercy. Some men have turned to the illithids for protection, others to forms of alchemy that are only marginally less harmful than the twisted nature of the world.

What else would you want to know?


Interesting. Note that in some cases (sorcerer vs. wizard), the only thing which distinguishes the class is the method of gaining spells. Spirit Shaman is especially notable here, since it has such a distinct method of spellcasting.

Wow. In forward to the rest, I really hadn't expected such an in-depth response. I'm blown away, thank you! Yeah, the differences between Wizard and Sorcerer are pretty small before ACFs, but they are there.


I skimmed most of the squirm wording, because it's so similar to shadowcasting, but it looks like the main difference is you get two squirms per level instead of one mystery, you get them from your class list, and you start out with two uses instead of one. Is this right?

Yes, you've captured the essence of it.


Based on your given rates of gain, it looks like you will know as many spells as a wizard does from leveling, but cast them many, many more times. You will have around 4 spells of each level, and can cast them around 2-3 times per day. This is a ridiculous number of spells per day. While you pay significantly in flexibility, you will have more spells per day than a sorcerer by approximately a factor of 1.5-2, while having around as many spells known, and more of higher level.

I doubt this will be used unless a particular spell is needed on a common basis to make a build work- there's more to be had from versatility.

I'll have to bring that down, then.


On Strength-based spellcasting: It's something I haven't seen before or explained well. Fluff-wise, why is physical muscle power the most important deciding factor for casting squirms? If it's powered by bodily toughness, I might expect Constitution to be the most significant ability score, since it represents how healthy you are (i.e. how much you can do without health risks).

Wording question:
Despite that your squirms are not spells, you may apply metamagic feats to them as though they were spells. Applying any number of metamagic feats to a squirm changes the action required to use it from a standard action to a full-round action, and increases its effective spell level as if it were a spell.

What do you mean by this? It sounds like you can apply any number of metamagic feats to the squirm, at the cost of only increasing the action to use it, which is clearly overpowered. The second half of the second sentence seems to imply that the number is limited by your maximum spell level available, which is more reasonable, but still powerful.

This is exactly why I was looking for help with these things. I used to be much more skilled with 3.5, but months out of practice have made me a bit less sharp.

I really considered making wormcasting Con-based, but in the end, it seemed like getting the worms to act would require some kind of well-honed muscular action, such as by putting pressure on them in the right way, or rearranging one's own innards with muscular or mechanical force. Constitution would probably help, but the strength to burst a worm buried in your arm to cast a spell felt like exactly that: Strength.

About the metamagic, it is as was implied. I forgot to detail a maximum casting level, and to limit your ability to apply metamagic to squirms to the maximum equivalent spell level available to you, after the metamagic is applied. Still powerful, yes, but hopefully not the kind of broken as the version I messed up on.


On somatic components:

In general, someone will probably go without armor if they are casting-focused. If they are a combat class, then they will choose a different casting method instead of hobbling themselves.

Huh. Yeah. I wonder why the shadowcaster gets the same feature, then.


You may wish to leave in variables to be modified by the specific class it is applied as an ACF to. For example, if you gave this form of casting to a ranger, you should give only one spell learned each level, and would give only one or two casts of that spell per day. Most classes fall into a (4th level spells max starting at level 4) or (9th level spells starting at level 1), leaving the bard and duskblade as odd-ones-out with no equivalents.

Will do. It looks like I've gotten myself into more than I first bargained for. Not that I mind.


Another thing you could do is move away from "the shadowcaster, with different numbers" system by tying in the mechanics with the fluff. For example, a theme of "breeding the worms in your body" would make sense- consider this variant method, for example:


You cast spells by breeding them in your body, in the form of Kyuss Worms, a wretched species which is a vital source of magic in these dark times. At any given time, you host some number of worms. Each worm has a spell associated with it- by destroying the worm, you can cast that spell once as a spell-like ability. Once destroyed, a worm is gone forever. However, each time you sleep at least 8 hours on a night after eating a full dinner, the worms breed again at your direction.

When they do, you may spawn any number of worms which you have not expended yet. Spawning a worm creates a copy of a worm you still have in your pool. However, you may only sustain a limited number of worms at one time. You can sustain worms of various spell levels as marked below:

(Table of spells per day goes here. It is roughly analogous to spells/day plus spells known, perhaps a bit less- around 8 spells for each level at 20th level, maybe. )


A wormcaster would gain one or two new worms with new spells every level, much like in your squirm example.

Wizard equivalent:
Intellect Worm: You host a particularly special type of worm. By dissecting another wormcaster's corpse, you may extract a worm from them. If it is compatible with your spell list, you can immediately integrate it into your body by taking 1 Constitution damage. This destroys the corpse, but the worm becomes part of your pool.

Spontaneous Casting:
Genesis Worm: You host a particularly special type of worm. At any time as a free action, you can destroy a worm within your pool to spawn a new worm (a copy of a different worm you possess) of the same or lower level.

This is a variant on prepared casting where by destroying the last worm you possess of a given species, you can cast the spell- essentially removing the spell from your spells known to get one more use out of it. Furthermore, while wizards still have their classic learn-spells-from-others ability, it is kept in check by the fact that each new spell known effectively removes one spell per day. It also has a particularly unique weakness to abilities which eliminate people's spells prepared. One weakness of the variant balance-wise is that someone can prepare only the same spell to effectively increase their spells per day- however, because of the spell-slot system, I expect that they would keep one spell known of each level, and even then, they only have one more spell/level over a sorcerer.

Y-yes... I could do that. If you don't mind, I think I will, and get started on another draft of wormcasting. :V

aimlessPolymath
2017-02-03, 11:47 PM
Well, there is certainly more about it. The world is Astlara, which is much like the worst of all possible worlds, as the presence of multiple world-enders keep one another from completely annihilating any life worth living, but only just barely. It's highly improbable, and as others have pointed out, likely blatantly impossible, but it's a flight of fantasy that I enjoy tinkering with. Some other folks like it, too. :)

Atropus and Ragnorra arrived synchronously, keeping one another in check while playing havoc with the balance of souls in the world. Pandorym escaped and fused with all conscious minds, only to be stymied from killing all gods by the influx of the Far Realm into reality. Leviathan is dead; its skeleton is being used as an unliving bridge to Atropus. Zargon's horn was shattered, killing him and scattering his essence. Father Llymic rules a paradise of his own inside an enormous Cerebrotic Blot, and the Hulks of Zoretha spawned a race in their own image inside a new layer of the world.

The gods abandoned Astlara for their own protection, and only a handful of avatars remained behind. Notably, the avatar of Pelor is the new sun. For many, the Age of Worms is now, as embracing Kyuss is a faster way to relative safety than denying it. From the book, only Sertrous has made no appearance so far, although it's possible its presence is simply more insidious than previously guessed, or that being cut off from the planes by means of "normal" travel has effectively kept out its influence. Given this world's luck, the former seems more likely.

Elves have all but vanished, half-elves are in decline. The fey have become ravenous and haunt our dreams, having little or no place left in the world. Obligatum IX rules the Court of Iron: a militarized, godless monarchy of law without mercy. Some men have turned to the illithids for protection, others to forms of alchemy that are only marginally less harmful than the twisted nature of the world.

What else would you want to know?

That is so metal.

I have many questions. Don't feel obligated to answer all of them.

-How did Leviathan die?
-Pandorym has fused with all minds- is that why normal divine spellcasting is impossible (well, that and most left)? If so, is there an equivalent reason for arcane spellcasting (the Far Realm?)?
-What's up with the various signs of the Elder Evils? Do you have some kind of horoscope thing going, where different signs come into alignment (maybe Ragnorra-Atropos in opposition) , or are they all going at the same time/based on location?
-I have no idea what a Cerebrotic Blot is.
-Layers of the world- are the Hulks underground, or something?
-How are the dwarves doing?
-Illithids. Far Realm invasion. Related?
-Some humans have turned to alchemy- Is this related to Zargon's shattered essence?
(looks up Zargon) I realize the place has gone to ****, but does Asmodeus have anything to say about his destruction/retrieving the shards of his horn?
-Does Kyuss walk the earth?
-With the absence of the fey from the material world, what effect has there been on



I really considered making wormcasting Con-based, but in the end, it seemed like getting the worms to act would require some kind of well-honed muscular action, such as by putting pressure on them in the right way, or rearranging one's own innards with muscular or mechanical force. Constitution would probably help, but the strength to burst a worm buried in your arm to cast a spell felt like exactly that: Strength.
It's as good a reason as any I've heard, and it makes sense in context!


Huh. Yeah. I wonder why the shadowcaster gets the same feature, then.
I know, right? The whole class was just weird, which is sad, since the mysteries were so cool.


Y-yes... I could do that. If you don't mind, I think I will, and get started on another draft of wormcasting. :V
Er... sorry to dump that on you. The idea of "breed your spells" took hold in my mind, and I had to get it out. The idea of wormcasting is pretty much totally new ground as far as mechanics, but with extremely visceral fluff behind it!

Ammutseba
2017-02-04, 01:35 AM
That is so metal.

I have many questions. Don't feel obligated to answer all of them.

-How did Leviathan die?
-Pandorym has fused with all minds- is that why normal divine spellcasting is impossible (well, that and most left)? If so, is there an equivalent reason for arcane spellcasting (the Far Realm?)?
-What's up with the various signs of the Elder Evils? Do you have some kind of horoscope thing going, where different signs come into alignment (maybe Ragnorra-Atropos in opposition) , or are they all going at the same time/based on location?
-I have no idea what a Cerebrotic Blot is.
-Layers of the world- are the Hulks underground, or something?
-How are the dwarves doing?
-Illithids. Far Realm invasion. Related?
-Some humans have turned to alchemy- Is this related to Zargon's shattered essence?
(looks up Zargon) I realize the place has gone to ****, but does Asmodeus have anything to say about his destruction/retrieving the shards of his horn?
-Does Kyuss walk the earth?
-With the absence of the fey from the material world, what effect has there been on

I'm happy to answer all of these questions!

Leviathan's death is generally a mystery, but the truth of the matter is that Y'chak killed it when the illithids came into conflict with the aboleth. Atropus merely made use of the body.

Many of the Signs are working in tandem, although due to the diametric opposition of Ragnorra and Atropus, their signs manifest in much smaller ways... most of the time. Other times, the sign of an Elder Evil will wander the world in the shape of a storm. And, since it would be mechanically bulky to keep track of all those things at the same time, I don't. Instead, I track how things change when the characters are no longer exposed to the signs, since to live there, they should have adapted to their presence.

A Cerebrotic Blot is a spot of the Far Realm that has formed a cyst around its substance to protect itself from the Prime Material. Usually far larger on the inside than the out, they can be thought of vaguely like two overlapping spaces, where one of them is the white and yolk of an egg in an ocean current. (Hmm, that sounds weird, now that I say it out loud.) You can find more about them in Dragon 330.

Layers of the world... it's a planar thing. Typically, a Prime Material Plane consists of a single layer, although it may have demiplanes attached to it via the Ethereal Plane. Astlara was given a second layer, which is where the Hulks (in their creation phase) and the Zorethans primarily dwell, except that recently, some force has connected the two layers, allowing for passage between the two in a certain area.

Comparatively, the dwarves are doing great! "Adapting" to underground life was no challenge for them, they've become the wardens of many other races, and a race of powerful defenders against the subterranean undead. Moradin was one of the avatars to enter the world before the gods fled, and became the first Bastion, a kind of rune circle-enhanced city that keeps the infection of the Far Realm "out." They certainly have their work cut out for them, though.

Illithids and the Far Realm, related? Yes, but the Far Realm never invaded. The Prime Material is toxic to it, and only very few bits of the Far Realm can endure it.

When Pandorym's mind escaped from its prison, the gods used a Sign to seal off Astlara from the Planes while they made their escape, ensuring that this interdimensional assassin could not pursue or do harm to them. In the time it took for Pandorym's mind to find and reunite with its body, spellcasters had been slighted, as they could no longer access the planes directly. Instead, they found a work-around. Dangerous as it was, there was nothing that prevented them from going to the Far Realm, since it is not a plane, and then from the Far Realm to other planes. In this way, they are able to use a sort of non-planar layover to effect planar travel.

The method for this travel involves drilling through the fabric of reality and injecting a bubble of it into the Far Realm, which, by matter of course, causes an equivalent portion of Far Realm to flood into the Prime Material. It didn't take long for these actions to begin destabilizing the world. When Pandorym became whole, it prepared to leave Astlara and pursue the gods by harnessing itself as a sort of "universal unconscious," but the Far Realm infection had already spread too far, changing the very nature of whatever mechanism the Elder Evil was using to escape. Just to keep itself from breaking down, it remains there to the day, fused to nearly all minds while it also keeps more Far Realm from leaking into the world. That is, unless someone uses one of the Drill Gates, again.

Zargon's death has little to do with mankind taking up such aggressive alchemy, although a few shards of its horn have been used to create Enclosures to protect men from the Far Realm's influence. They're really very useful items. Asmodeus might have a thing or two to say about this, it's true, but to do that, he would need access to the world. Without direct planar travel, that's rather unlikely. There is, after all, no way Asmodeus would be dumb or desperate enough to do what Men did.

It's unknown whether Kyuss does walk Astlara. He might have a throne somewhere, or he might be the nature of a new kind of magic. He certainly isn't a god, for if he were, Pandorym would have already killed him.

Your last question... seems to be missing a key element.


It's as good a reason as any I've heard, and it makes sense in context!

I know, right? The whole class was just weird, which is sad, since the mysteries were so cool.

Er... sorry to dump that on you. The idea of "breed your spells" took hold in my mind, and I had to get it out. The idea of wormcasting is pretty much totally new ground as far as mechanics, but with extremely visceral fluff behind it!

Oh no! I appreciate it! Thanks a lot! :D

Ziegander
2017-02-04, 02:09 AM
I just want to say, this is one of the coolest setting concepts I've read in a long time.

Ammutseba
2017-02-04, 04:19 PM
Hey thanks! Despite its complexity, it's a lot of fun to work on. I've really been thinking about putting a thread in World Building about it, although, I'm not quite sure how that board works, yet.

Edit: I tried writing more on the worm magic aimlessPolymath presented above, but it's just about comprehensive, and very elegant. I could use it as-is and just add in the couple of tables it needs. So again, thank you. I'm really floored!

While I do that, I thought I'd bring up the other four alternates. Incarnum, pact magic, psionics and truenaming. Other than truenaming, the original systems were all solid, and psionics is perhaps the easiest one to adapt to spellcasting. aimlessPolymath has already set a kind of precedent by describing worm magic above, but it's the sort of thing I can appreciate. Since the Intellect Worm and Genesis Worm exist, worm-based casting is a worse choice for non-wizard prepared casters. Another system should have those people covered.

Truenaming is obviously awful, but I still love the idea of it. It's a position I'm pretty sure many people share. It's Intelligence-based, and it was supposed to have a kind of flexibility that spellcasters didn't have. It didn't deliver, but that's not really the point. It was also skill check-centric, but on a spell-by-spell basis, that turns out to be a colossal mistake. The idea that you cast spells by learning and speaking the names of a magical language certainly describes a romantic ideal, especially as it can mean that you are never without your repertoire as long as you can speak, and that more clever casters are capable of more.

Psionics is essentially already a spell system, especially if the StP Erudite has anything to say about it. Not that it should, that option is just as broken as truenaming but in an opposite way, and it's something to be careful of. Astlaran psionics have a caveat you won't find elsewhere, though. Casting spells using mental energy means willingly connecting yourself with the immensity of Pandorym, and on a level more than the background noise it normally occupies. Pandorym's influence gives a caster access to more raw power than normal, but tapping into that should also impose a kind of heavy risk.

The Binder is one of the most intriguing and arresting classes ever printed, if my opinion means anything. It's so well executed that it's worth basing much of the notion of tier 3 around. Making a Diplomacy check for every spell you want to prepare shouldn't be an option, though, as it would quickly become far too cumbersome to wield. It's possible that spells might need to go into "packages" analog to vestiges. I can only say that I hope pact magic as a means to spells will be likewise well-executed.

Incarnum is probably the most dynamic of the systems to base spellcasting on. It's been described as complex, and it seems like it may have the most limits in the number of spells a caster can have prepared at once. If it's done in a way that's comparable to incarnum itself, though, it would also be the most fluid and adaptable system. The sourcebook has the Soulcaster; I might look at that for inspiration, but I also want to play incarnum spells closer to what the incarnate does. Chakras, something like essentia, and binds. Astlara's flow of souls has been completely corrupted, though. No new souls flow into it any more, having been completely cut off from the planes, so it's been recycling souls since the Vast End, and that's no doubt had an impact on the world's incarnum.

...thoughts?

Morphic tide
2017-02-04, 08:57 PM
I've got some fluff-linked-to-mechanics for Worm magic:

Let's say that the Kyuss Worms, or at least the ones used for magic, actually can feed on arcane magic and output actual not-quite-Arcane spells. This alone makes a lot of fluff work out better, as it allows for using Metamagic Rods from pre-"everything fails" with Worm Magic, using Worm Magic for item crafing/scroll making and for the variant to see use in other setting with Far Realms involvement without needing to do more than say "This guy, or their ancestor/however-many-times-removed teacher, ran here through the Far Realms from this other setting."

So, under this, the metamagic is partially structuring normal arcane magic as metamagic and sending the unstable mess to the Worms for them to stabilize it, and "worm wizards" learn spells by essentially infusing the slowly-cast-through-interference spell into a worm or a dozen, while "worm sorcerers" have the worms acquire spells from their magical bloodline as sorcerers. This actually helps nerf metamagic as the metamagic is the base class's largely disabled magic channelled through the worms, so you can have the spell slots used for metamagic be based on the class's old casting score while their Worm Magic is based on a different ability score, increasing MADness, while the basic mechanics of Worm Magic make their variety of spells much more consistent.

As an extension, the "worm wizards" cast by learning to precisely stimulate worms primarily through muscle control and a touch of Arcane magic too simple for the disruption preventing normal casting to prevent, making their Worm Magic Strength or Dexterity based. You can have them count as more than the normal class for Initiator Level, for support of multiclassing into those, encouraging the idea of not entirely usual class picks. Perhaps they have the slots of a more literal than normal half-caster, but can only prepare metamagic sets in them. For example, they can prepare Still + Silent spell as a second level slot, but this requires them to be level 6 to have the slot, as they are a literal half-caster here, getting the slots of a normal Wizard half their level.

Meanwhile, the "worm sorcerers" cast by manipulating the flow of soulstuff in their body in a way that causes the worms to release their spell and go into a minor frenzy, draining an insignificant amount of Essentia, making them Constitution based. You can give them partial progression of non-Soulmeld Incarnum stuff, for mixing with those classes. This both gives Incarnum a bit of needed support and encourages moving away from standard D&D systems. Here, the metamagic is the same, keeping the one level behind of normal Sorcerers. So, Still+Silent would still need a second level slot, but require level 7 to have the slot. Or you can use Empower Spell on one of your Worm Magic spells instead, thanks to your lack of preparing slots.

One important note about Clerics and Paladins is that they do not need to worship deities to function. However, one can work around that by saying that the non-worshippers were drawing from the stray power of deities through Domains to disable that technicality. So, to work around this, you can have them use Truespeech to provide power to their prayers, using whatever Truespeech has in place of metamagic. Yes, such a thing exists, but I forgot the name of it. Inflections, I think? You can give them half their normal progression of spell slots and let them use Truespeech to fill in the remaining amount of spell levels. For example, a level 11 character can have 14 ranks in Truespeech if it's a class skill, or 7 ranks if cross-class. A level 11 Cleric would have 6th level spells, while a level 5-6 Cleric would have 3rd level spells.

So, the example Cleric variant here can spend a 3rd level spell slot and make a Truespeech check with a DC they should pass about 50% of the time with nothing but basic skill ranks to get a 6th level spell, with the same process allowing them to use a cantrip slot for a 3rd level spell. Thing is, they are now nerfed because they need to pump Intelligence to get their spells working frequently enough to be worth casting, need to pump Wisdom to get enough slots, have to spend precious skill points on Truespeech and have a much more limited access to metamagic effects. Well, unless they go DMM, but that is also more limited than the normal selection. On the upside, they have more versatility because they don't need to prepare the exact spells they will use. Perhaps they can use a spell as the "seed" for any spell of the same school or some other restriction to prevent them from having spontaneous casting as long as they pass Truespeech check.

No idea what to give Druids and Rangers, here. I don't know enough about non-standard D&D subsystems to give an example, but the idea would be the same as the Cleric and Paladin variant, using something that needs rolls to do stuff for making up lost spell levels and stacking with that thing with metamagic equivalents.

The ultimate goal here is to drag all the normal casters lower in their ceiling of power while dragging the Divine casters even further than that by making them both spread out their character resources to keep functioning properly and having more limited options for the standard versatility boosters. Of course, the versatility of them goes up quite a bit due to the spell slot making up, but they end up with much lower DC ceilings and much more spread out character resources, leaving less room for the highest of cheese.

aimlessPolymath
2017-02-05, 02:21 AM
Truenaming is awful mechanically, yeah. Notes:

The idea of a DC-based system where you can upgrade your effects by increasing the difficulty of them is inherently difficult to balance, especially with the wide disparity of skill bonuses available- imagine if with caster-level boosting effects, you could achieve free metamagic! Skill-based casting is something I feel is the weakest part of the system.

Thematic elements to keep are the idea of truenames- the idea that increased understanding of your foe makes it easier to affect them. Mechanically, this system would be distinguished by being particularly good at targetting single targets who you understand most closely. Research is the most notable facet of this system, both in libraries and on the streets. I like the idea that there's no real truename, just sentences which grasp the essence of someone most closely, so hearing childhood stories about someone is just as important as analyzing their mystic essence.

One thing which I think would work very well when designing a truenaming system is developing a basic syntax- even something like [Noun] [Verb] or [Noun][Adjective] would give you a surprising level of build-your-own magic when you can cast as [Noun(Collective): Orc] [Preposition(Conditional): Over There] [Adjective(Conditional): Something or other] [Verb: Lift]... maybe? The idea of building a sentence with metamagic(especially some of the wierd ones like Delay Spell, Shape Spell, Explosive Spell, etc.) and a target-effect pair feels pretty neat.

I wouldn't advocate the use of a skillcasting system- other mages don't need to make checks to cast spells.

A quick note on divine spellcasting: Divine spellcasting doesn't work, even outside explicit deities, because Pandorym is wholly against the development of gods. It's that simple- you don't need to come up with a justification involving the exit of the gods.

On Psionics:
To handle the idea of being connected to a power beyond you, you could create a pseudo-wild surge system. I wouldn't use the default wild surge rules, because they (to be honest) seem sort of odd and confusing.
Instead, what about whenever an (x class) casts a spell, they can reach beyond their limits. If they do, roll the surge die, which is a die based on their class level which increases over time- it starts as a d4, then goes up with level. Add that many power points or manifester level, minus two (changing with level- at a d4, you get -1 point or +0 half the time, but +1 or +2 the rest of the time, for a net gain, but sometimes failing the power if your CL goes to 0) to the manifested power. However, if you roll the maximum value on the die, you immediately take 1 point of damage to all your mental ability scores- no save to resist it.
This isn't the best mechanic, but a simple system of "drawing beyond" to overload your spells seems good. Note that this swings the balance of magic slightly towards the non-players, who can continually draw power without as much fear of long-term consequences.

On pact binding:
You don't want the Diplomacy check to be made when you cast the spell- you want it to happen during spell preparation. One way to do it: Each vestige, or power-that-is, or whatever, has some spells to offer. However, they also ask a cost for access- this is their sign and influence. You can reduce the effect of Influence, gaining a couple free violations for the day, with your Diplomacy check result. Roll result doesn't determine your available magic, just how much they get over on you for it.
The downside to this is that you have to put a bunch more work in, picking which spells go with which vestige, and it's likely that a bunch of them will be missing- I don't recommend you do it with more than one class spell list. Cleric or Druid are good picks for this.
The upside to this is that you can feel free to put thematically appropriate abilities in with the negotiations- with a high enough check result, a Cleric can trade out some spells prepared for Amon's breath weapon.
The other upside to this is that this system provides an opportunity to replace the Domain class feature with some sort of affinity for a particular group- domain spells are then the spells that vestige (or whatever) provides.
The other downside to this is that this is a skill-based casting system, with the variance in power which that implies. This is mitigated by the lack of in-combat rolls- there's no fizzle rate, which is one of my personal peeves.

Will cover Incarnum in more depth when I've had more sleep- but one of it's most notable features is fluidity and adaptation, though within strict roles. Interestingly, this mirrors the reincarnation cycle- in any life, you migh do one thing or another, but the roles you might play are limited by the world and culture you live in.
It's probably closest to the Spirit Shaman mechanically

Morphic tide
2017-02-05, 03:46 AM
Truenaming is awful mechanically, yeah. Notes:

The idea of a DC-based system where you can upgrade your effects by increasing the difficulty of them is inherently difficult to balance, especially with the wide disparity of skill bonuses available- imagine if with caster-level boosting effects, you could achieve free metamagic! Skill-based casting is something I feel is the weakest part of the system.

Thematic elements to keep are the idea of truenames- the idea that increased understanding of your foe makes it easier to affect them. Mechanically, this system would be distinguished by being particularly good at targetting single targets who you understand most closely. Research is the most notable facet of this system, both in libraries and on the streets. I like the idea that there's no real truename, just sentences which grasp the essence of someone most closely, so hearing childhood stories about someone is just as important as analyzing their mystic essence.

One thing which I think would work very well when designing a truenaming system is developing a basic syntax- even something like [Noun] [Verb] or [Noun][Adjective] would give you a surprising level of build-your-own magic when you can cast as [Noun(Collective): Orc] [Preposition(Conditional): Over There] [Adjective(Conditional): Something or other] [Verb: Lift]... maybe? The idea of building a sentence with metamagic(especially some of the wierd ones like Delay Spell, Shape Spell, Explosive Spell, etc.) and a target-effect pair feels pretty neat.

I wouldn't advocate the use of a skillcasting system- other mages don't need to make checks to cast spells.

My idea was, essentially, to have a chance of failure that's 50/50 with nothing but skill ranks, and only for your highest level spells. Doubling a spell's level, while also altering what's in the slot, potentially adding metamagic you otherwise may not have a slot capable of using with it and while in a setting rather hostile to the type of magic you are boosting so far. And you are doing it for the spells of either a class that is an utter joke anyway or one that is often cited as in the top two most broken base classes in the entire game, with the other being the Druid. Giving an automatic fizzle chance is something that is a welcome nerf and something that is a problem for armored Arcane casters who don't jump through a hoop or two.

Skillcasting is actually a nice idea. Keep in mind that Truenamer is inherently broken by having DCs raise faster than possible to get Truenaming up. The key to balancing skillcasting is to keep the DCs on level curve. You see the effects that are appropriate for at-will abilities at particular levels, based on well-balanced things like Tome of Battle and Incarnum, and have the DC system give you reasonable access to 80-90% pass rate with nothing but a 14 in the ability score and maxed normal skill ranks. Then, adding 1-3 more ranks to it gives you the maximum of 95 percent pass, and a natural one in this gets you a fail. Tiny chance for dramatic/horrific failure in exchange for level-appropriate at-wills. And you can increase the failure chance to improve the power of it, with bonuses giving you a lower "bottom" strength and the only cost for failure being a wasted action. Yes, this is hard to balance once optimization kicks in, but you can always have a "max DC" column on the class table to keep the maximum power of effect a character can attempt to non-game-breaking amounts. Say, balanced against spells of one or two levels higher than a Wizard of your level could cast, with a lot of skill boosts needed to get there.

And you seem to like contemplating hypothetical skillcasting that tries to match t1 casters without being broken as hell. You don't, you have skillcasting that matches Warlocks and Binders and Tome of Battle and Incarnum classes. You give it a toolkit for making abilities or a fixed list of abilities to use and then let it loose.

To give an example of the toolkit option, you could have the DC increase by one for every 30 ft. away the enemy target is. This is much lower range than the range progression of mundane ranged characters. Similarly, you can increase the DC by one or two to add one die of damage or an increase to the effect by one increment of some kind. Have a set of flat modifiers for action taken, going from full-round to Immediate action, modifiers unlocked at particular levels or with particular requirements representing more unusual metamagic(in Truespeech, the quest for how to describe "And" in Truespeech would be akin to a Wizard seeking Twin Spell, because the two would be mechanically identical)


A quick note on divine spellcasting: Divine spellcasting doesn't work, even outside explicit deities, because Pandorym is wholly against the development of gods. It's that simple- you don't need to come up with a justification involving the exit of the gods.
How does this effect Druids? How does Pandorym disable Divine spellcasting entirely separate from Gods on every level except maybe Domains? How, exactly, does getting rid of Gods cripple Druids who have no involvement with them at all, not even with Domains?


*snip*

Why bother altering rules for Incarnum and Pact Binding? There's nothing in the setting that would require altering them, and no reason to because nerfing the hell out of the standard classes for large power is part of the point of the setting. As for Psionics, that'd be a neat setting rule for variant Overchannelling, but would be nasty for an "always on" thing.

aimlessPolymath
2017-02-05, 09:19 AM
In reverse order:


Why bother altering rules for Incarnum and Pact Binding? There's nothing in the setting that would require altering them, and no reason to because nerfing the hell out of the standard classes for large power is part of the point of the setting. As for Psionics, that'd be a neat setting rule for variant Overchannelling, but would be nasty for an "always on" thing.
The systems I threw together were based on this quote from the first post:

The spell lists won't change, just the methods of getting the spells, and the rules that surround preparing, modifying and casting them. Naturally, I'd like each alternative feature to be easily evocative of its source.
With overchanneling, I wanted to get some of this line:

Casting spells using mental energy means willingly connecting yourself with the immensity of Pandorym, and on a level more than the background noise it normally occupies. Pandorym's influence gives a caster access to more raw power than normal, but tapping into that should also impose a kind of heavy risk.


How does this effect Druids? How does Pandorym disable Divine spellcasting entirely separate from Gods on every level except maybe Domains? How, exactly, does getting rid of Gods cripple Druids who have no involvement with them at all, not even with Domains?
Druids, presumably, got the sack due to the flight of the nature spirits (see 3rd post)
Pandorym fused with the collective unconsious of all beings of the Material Plane. In doing so, he (depending on how it's played in-setting) gains access to the most commonly cited power of the collective unconscious- the power of belief. By controlling and choking off that power, he can prevent belief from leading to divine magic.


Truespeech
Fair enough- except that as noted above, you aren't actually competing with Binders, Warlocks, etc. You're competing with Kyuss wormcasting wizards, psionic sorcerers, and so on. I agree that the Truenamer is primarily bad because of the escalating DCs, but another problem was the lack of ways to control those DCs to contribute in smaller ways. It looks like you've come up with a lot more tools for namecasters(or other name of casting type) to use to control their success rate (distance, casting time, etc), which I really like. Your original post didn't really contain the "upside" of truenaming- it seemed to be presented as a nerf of casters by locking higher-level spells behind skillchecks and more MAD, which felt much more oppressive (though MAD is something casters could use more of).

Ammutseba
2017-02-05, 01:48 PM
I can and certainly will make use of some of the fluff you provided, morphic tide. Thanks a bunch. :)

To answer your implied question about divine magic, though, it's not that it's strictly not working. It's simply not working well enough to be relied on. The Sign of Sealing, implemented by the gods to cut Pandorym off from the multiverse, is in Overwhelming effect at all times. For divine casters, this means a blanket -4 divine CL (minimum 0), 20% chance to not gain back each spell slot, -20 on turn/rebuke, no conjuration (calling, summoning or teleportation) and no divination effects that involve other planes. In short, no divine caster would survive long enough to make a career out of it, so ingenuity has lead them to other options.

As I mentioned, I am against skillcasting on a spell-by-spell basis. It's simply too easy to pump a skill check and ensure success (especially since skill checks do not, in fact, adhere to this "natural 1/20" concept for failure/success). I do, however, like the idea of starting with "spell seeds" and then giving namecasters fluid control over the actual result. That's a great way to evoke the source, and make it seem like the whole language is available to them, plus it even rewards clever casters more.

Building an entirely new spell system around lexical categories and conjugation is possible, of course, but also highly work intensive, and will likely come out too complicated for most player to use. Still, I think I have an idea of where to start. It's an idea I had a long time ago, and I think it can quickly be adapted to the task at hand by converting the skill checks in it to a more easily controllable numeric "lexicon" to describe the flexibility namecasters should have. Here...

Spell Expertise
You are so familiar with one of your spells that it becomes a skill for you.
Prerequisites: Able to cast spells, Concentration 4 ranks
Benefit: Choose a spell you know and can cast. If you have multiple classes from which you can cast that spell, choose one of them for the purposes of this feat. You permanently lose one spell slot of the chosen spell's level. Whenever you cast the chosen spell, you can choose to make a Concentration check. Instead of using your Constitution score as the key ability for this check, use the ability score which is used to determine the maximum spell level of spells you can cast in the class that provides the spell for this feat. If the check succeeds, you cast the spell without expending any spell slots. If the check fails, the spell is lost.

By voluntarily increasing the DC of the check for this feat, you can achieve a wide variety of effects for the spell you cast, at the time that you choose to cast the spell. You can choose to apply these effects at the time of the spell's casting even if you normally prepare your spells in advance. The effects that you can provide to a spell in this way, and their commensurate increases in check DC are as follows:


Cast the spell without expending spell slots 5 + caster level + spell level + 4 for each time you successfully cast the spell this day
Apply a metamagic feat you know to the spell +5 per spell level adjustment of the metamagic feat
Cast the spell as an immediate action +5, +10, +15 or +20
Cast the spell as a move action +5 or +10
Cast the spell as a standard action +5
Cast the spell as a swift action +5, +10 or +15
Cast the spell without somatic components +10
Cast the spell without verbal components +10
Increase the damage inflicted by the spell +4 per die
Increase the duration of the spell +2 per 1 round or 1 additional increment
Increase the healing provided by the spell +4 per die
Increase the range of the spell +2 per 5 feet or 1 additional increment
Increase the spell's caster level +4 per caster level

If you have this feat for two different spells that share a domain or school, and you have at least 5 ranks of Concentration, you gain a +2 synergy bonus to Concentration checks made when casting those spells and using this feat. Additionally, Concentration is always a class skill for you.

Cast without expending slots: This is the standard use for this skill via the Spell Expertise feat. To apply any other use of the skill and feat to your spell, you will voluntary increase the DC of this use as indicated.

Apply metamagic: You can apply any number of metamagic feat you know to the spell as it is being cast. This does not increase the casting time of the spell and the metamagic feat can be applied to the spell even you if you normally must apply metamagic feats to your spells when preparing them in advance. You must increase the DC of the check for each metamagic feat you choose to apply to the spell at the time that it is cast.

Cast as an immediate action: If the spell you're casting normally has a casting time of 1 swift action, you can choose to cast the spell as an immediate action by adding 5 to the DC of the Concentration check to cast the spell. If the spell normally has a casting time of 1 move action action, you can reduce its casting time to an immediate action by increasing the DC by 10. If the spell normally has a casting time of 1 standard action, you can reduce its casting time to an immediate action by increasing the DC by 15. If the spell normally has a casting time of 1 round, you can reduce its casting time to an immediate action by increasing the DC by 20. You still can't cast more than 1 spell per round in this way.

Cast as a move action: If the spell you're casting normally has a casting time of 1 standard action, you can choose to cast the spell as a move action by adding 5 to the DC of the Concentration check to cast the spell. If the spell normally has a casting time of 1 round, you can reduce its casting time to a move action by increasing the DC by 10. You still can't cast more than 1 spell per round in this way.

Cast as a standard action: If the spell you're casting normally has a casting time of 1 round, you can instead cast the spell as a standard action by adding 5 to the DC of the Concentration check to cast the spell. You still can't cast more than 1 spell per round in this way.

Cast as a swift action: If the spell you're casting normally has a casting time of 1 move action, you can choose to cast the spell as a swift action by adding 5 to the DC of the Concentration check to cast the spell. If the spell normally has a casting time of 1 standard action, you can reduce its casting time to a swift action by increasing the DC by 10. If the spell normally has a casting time of 1 round, you can reduce its casting time to a swift action by increasing the DC by 15. You still can't cast more than 1 spell per round in this way.

Increase damage dealt: If the spell you're casting normally deals hit point damage and the number of dice of damage it deals has reached its maximum (whether this number normally does not change, or is capped based on your caster level), you can add dice of damage to the spell beyond its normal maximum by increasing the check's DC by 4 for each die of damage you wish to add. If a spell does not use dice to determine damage dealt, each increment of 4 you increase the DC by increases the damage dealt by the spell by 1.

Increase spell duration: If the spell you're casting normally has a duration that is not instantaneous, you can increase its duration by 1 round by increasing the check's DC by 2 for each extra round of duration you wish to add. If the spell's duration is described in measurements other than rounds, each increment of 2 you increase the DC by adds one of those measurements, instead (1 hour if the duration is measured in hours, 1 day if the duration is measured in days, and so on).

Increase healing provided: If the spell you're casting normally heals hit points and the number of dice of healing it provides has reached its maximum (whether this number normally does not change, or is capped based on your caster level), you can add dice of healing to the spell beyond its normal maximum by increasing the check's DC by 4 for each die of healing you wish to add. If a spell does not use dice to determine healing provided, each increment of 4 you increase the DC by increases the healing provided by the spell by 1.

Increase spell range: If the spell you're casting normally has a range greater than personal and touch, you can increase its range by 5 feet by increasing the check's DC by 2 for 5 extra feet of range you wish to add. If the spell's range is described in measurements other than feet, each increment of 2 you increase the DC by adds one of those measurements, instead (1 square if the range is measured in squares, 1 mile if the range is measured in miles, and so on).

Increase caster level: You can provide yourself with a +1 bonus to caster level by increasing the check DC by 4 for every bonus caster level you wish to provide yourself in this way. For example, if you are a level 10 wizard and you had Spell Expertise (lightning bolt), you could cast the lightning bolt at an effective caster level of 13 by succeeding on a DC 30 Concentration check, without expending any spell slots (5 + 3 + 10, + 3 extra caster levels). To perform the same trick again, a round later, you would need to succeed on a DC 34 Concentration check, since you had already cast lightning bolt via your Spell Expertise feat once that day.

Like aimlessPolymath suggested, there are very few Druids left, and it's not just from Pandorym's presence, although I'm certain it doesn't help. Rather, the near-complete exodus of nature spirits, the influx of the Outside, and the cut-off from the flow of souls and the planes has completely corrupted Astlara, causing druids to lose the majority of their class features. Spells and wild shape are just plain off the table for them, eliminating most of the class's appeal and usefulness.

On mentalism: I found some old notes I'd put under "Your Brain on Pandorym." They might be relevant, or completely whack. Here's what I found.

As a manifester, you can either assert your individuality from the collective, or you can pay your brain taxes. Manifesters have an especially deep connection to Pandorym. In dream, they can touch its mind and benefit from its awesome mental might during the next day. To do this, pick any two of the following three: pass a DC (20 + manifester level) Lucid Dreaming check; wake up fatigued or; sacrifice 20% of your power points for the next day.

If you did contact Pandorym, the entity pays the first (manifester level/5, minimum 1) power points of all your manifested powers for that day.

If you didn't contact Pandorym in dream the night before, you get a –1 penalty to manifester level and all of your powers cost 1 more power point during that day. You also get to add +1d6 to a 1d20 roll of your choice, once during that day.

That's not to say that I don't like the psionic surge rules. I'm personally tinkering with combining these two systems, right now.

Picking spells to go with each vestige is definitely not what I want to do. I might as well create a large subsystem just to assist that one choice, when I want there to be more choices than that. Instead, I'm going to move in a less granular direction. Instead of tying spells to vestiges, I'm going to try attaching schools to them, and setting up a framework that requires casters to create something like a domain in order to access higher level spells. I.e., to get a 4th-level evocation spell, you'll first need to have acquired a 1st-, 2nd- and 3rd-level evocation spell, most likely from another vestige. This would also make pactcasters have an EBL, hopefully making binder multiclassing more attractive.

You're right, morphic tide. It's not strictly necessary to have incarnum-based or pact-based casting in this setting. ...but I do want them. I believe the former should appear because I want to underline the warped nature of the flow of souls on Astlara, and I believe the latter would appear because pact magic is easy, which makes survival more possible.

I think that's everything. Everything that's come up so far, anyway.

Morphic tide
2017-02-05, 02:51 PM
Well, I thought that the setting was having the various unusual magics as the main thing in the setting. Sorry for the confusion/rage.

So, as you are overhauling the existing casters to fit the setting's reliance on non-standard magic, you could actually have two options for each class. Clerics could use Binder magic or Psionics to bypass Pandorym's suppression of Divine magic on both the "gods are absent" and "belief isn't power" ends, while Druids could use Kyuss Worms or Incarnum to amplify the minor amount of remaining nature magic to usable amounts or extract it from the soul stuff of the long dead.

Meanwhile, Sorcerers could go more into Incarnum than just a minor means of controlling/empowering Kyuss worms for casting, using spells as Soulmelds, while Wizards could get Arcane Swordsage style Spells as Maneuvers keyed off of Strength or Dexterity in some way, keeping the "prepared metamagic" thing.

As for making Casters MAD, it's just making them have two stats instead of one. Still better off than Martials, who tend to need three or four.

A suggestion for the exact mechaics of spells-as-Soulmelds is to have particular Soulmelds represent subschools, with invested Essentia determining the maximum spell level, CL and/or other things. This is much less complicated than having Soulmelds for each individual spell, as you lower the number of Soulmelds enough to be able to have effects for Binding each one to a Chakra.

For example, you can have a Soulmeld for Evocation[Fire] spells. If you don't invest any Essentia in it, you can use cantrips of the Fire subschool of Evocation. For each Essentia invested, the maximum spell level increases by one or two, whichever gets you your spells on time for a full caster. Then, it has effects based on where you Shape/Bind the Soulmeld. Energy resistance to Fire for the torso and fire damage on mundane attacks for the arms, as an example.

For spells without a Subschool or descriptor of some kind, you get to use general School level Soulmelds. For example, Universal spells basically never have any discriptor you could use for a Soulmeld. So, you have one Soulmeld for all Universal spells that gives metamagic effects based on invested Essentia it it's bound to one Chakra, or gives you extra Essentia to invest if bound to a different one. Strong, useful effects that make up for the limited number of Universal spells. Especially because Arcane Fusion isn't functional due to you not having Spells Known.

Basically, instead of Spells Known as a Sorcerer, you have Subschools Selected, and are limited in spell level by invested Essentia. Your flexibility is far higher than the normal Sorcerer, as in you have literally your entire spell list, but with harsh limits on how much is useable at once. The upside is that you can have crazy effects based on your chosen Subschools, like having your punches deal fire damage and having metamagic out the ass.

A similar setup of Subschools or descriptor sets for provided spells would work well for Binder spells. For instance, a Vestige with a lot of Fire based themes could provide access to spells with the Fire descriptor from some school or from a Fire Subschool. The line between the two is blurry, to be honest. But still, instead of specific lists, you give described sets of spells.

aimlessPolymath
2017-02-05, 04:48 PM
My understanding of the system is roughly that each class can get any system via ACFs, though it makes sense to distinguish the classes by what options they have access to, or slightly penalizes ACFs by losing class features without necessarily gaining benefits in return- for example, a wizard with the Intellect Worm who trades away Kyuss worms wouldn't necessarily get a benefit to replace it. This would help distinguish classes again, beyond their spell lists alone.


I like Morphic tide's idea of using spell schools and spell school descriptors as a guide for spells available from incarnum. I would advocate that the soulcaster (or whatever name) is only able to invest essentia once per day, like incarnum feats. Otherwise, if they can readjust essentia at-will, they can simply invest in whatever school they want round-to-round.




On pact binding, now that I've thought and heard more about it:
I agree that a less work-intensive method would involve using schools and subschools to access spell lists makes sense. However, generating that list seems much harder, unless homebrew vestiges are created for that specific purpose. What subschools does Leraje give access to? Chupoclops? The elementally-themed vestiges can be assigned OK, but the vestige list is really notable for its oddball options and bizarre themes- Paimon can't really be pinned down to one descriptor other than "swords and dances", but if we wanted to pick out a set of spells for him to be tied to, it would be easy to say "sound-based enchantment/illusions maybe, weapon-enhancing and speed-enhancing spells definitely".

An alternate method could involve simply choosing a set of themes for each vestige, and letting them give access to thematically appropriate spells- while Andromalius gives access to a variety of illusion, enchantment and divination spells, he shies away from any spell which would ruin his game- he only provides illusions which augument existing skills. No invisibility, but disguise self and magic aura are fine. No divinations which reveal the future. Chupoclops is straightforwards- he augments physical power with transmutations, and provides a set of illusions and divinations which primarily aid with stalking and ambushes. They give access to tangentially related spells with a penalty- while Chupoclops enjoys ethereal ambushes, that doesn't mean he's all that fond of blink. The downside to this is that it's pretty DM-dependent to OK spells gained, and there is slightly less of a mechanical connection with vestige abilities (though you could bargain for them instead of spells, I guess...)

I think that connecting the normal pact binding check during binding vestiges with some form of Diplomacy or caster check during spell preparation is a very strong link which should be preserved in whatever spell-selection method is chosen.


I have some ideas on truenaming which I haven't fully fleshed out yet, but my current general outline is modification of your spells with Truenamer-specific metamagic effects- things like conditionally affecting people with attributes which you describe with your words, with increasing power the more specific you are on your targets.

Morphic tide
2017-02-05, 05:47 PM
Regarding the Subschools as Soulmelds, it can be fairly easily balanced by some limit to how many you can have. I was writing that idea under the assumption that there's a limit to how many Soulmelds can be Shaped, and not just the ones that can be Bound. Reinvesting Essentia would only shift what spells you can cast within the daily selection of Soulmelds. Like, you are still limited to the number of Chakras you have, but you can reinvest Essentia to switch your focus as needed, much like Binders can switch their everything during rather brief breaks. This allows the two sets to properly compete with each other. The Soulmeld based casting has better depth, getting all the spells in a rather arbitrary area, while the Binder based casting has better breadth, being able to grab diverse spell sets and swap them rapidly to fit the situation.

If the only limit is on Bound Soulmelds, then swapping the related effect and casting to have it so that you have the limited spell options kept intact. Which would also help keep the available combinations limited to stop the explosion of versatility even more because you can have all the heavy game breakers, namely Polymorph Transmutation spells and Summoning Conjuration spells, share one Chakra Bind, so you choose one or the other. In fact, you could actually use this to help save book space and further restrict option combinations by having multiple Subschools on one Soulmeld, then have which one is active determined by which Chakra it's bound to, which also stops bypassing the Chakra overlap of particularly strong sets of spells with the feat that lets you bind two Soulmelds to one Chakra.

Like, you could have one Soulmeld provide access to both Shadow Illusion and Universal spells, with the Unbound effects being metamagic effects and/or DC boosts. That way, you have to choose between two related in function and extremely versatile in use sets of magic, even if you can Bind two Soulmelds to one Chakra. You could also force a similar choice between Polymorph spells, which are a Subschool thanks to errata, and Conjuration's Summoning spells, while also having the high synergies share slots to further restrict. Like, Shadow Illusion could share the same Chakra as Polymorph spells, while Summoning spells could share a Chakra with one of the buff sets. You can also have the Subschools level locked by having them require Chakras that unlock at specific levels, to keep the best Subschools unavailable until there are counters available.

Ammutseba
2017-02-06, 03:08 PM
Soulmelds as subschools is a great concept. One of the things about incarnum, though, is that chakras exist in several tiers. The further out from the heart, the weaker the chakra. A soulcasting system needs to remember that. So, it sounds like I have a pretty simple to-do list on that front.

• Create a list of spellmelds with subschools, nonsubschools, and metamagics.
• Remember that since soulcasters can move their essentia around freely, it shouldn't control spell level access.
• Assign chakra binds that provide passive bonuses to soulcasters.
• Have powerful branches of magic share spellmelds, requiring different chakra binds.
• Keep the spellmelds class-neutral, so it doesn't matter if it's a soulcasting ranger or a soulcasting wizard. This is also a good reason to tie maximum spell level to class rather than spellmeld/essentia.

Of course, this all means that depending on your class, you will never shape particular spellmelds, because getting their passive benefits will never outweigh getting your class's spells.

There hasn't been much talk about the spellpacts. Does this mean I'm good to go? Make a list of homebrew vestiges, assign subschools and passives to them, require players to build domains to get higher-level spells?

Morphic tide
2017-02-06, 04:35 PM
Soulmelds as subschools is a great concept. One of the things about incarnum, though, is that chakras exist in several tiers. The further out from the heart, the weaker the chakra. A soulcasting system needs to remember that. So, it sounds like I have a pretty simple to-do list on that front.

• Create a list of spellmelds with subschools, nonsubschools, and metamagics.
• Remember that since soulcasters can move their essentia around freely, it shouldn't control spell level access.
• Assign chakra binds that provide passive bonuses to soulcasters.
• Have powerful branches of magic share spellmelds, requiring different chakra binds.
• Keep the spellmelds class-neutral, so it doesn't matter if it's a soulcasting ranger or a soulcasting wizard. This is also a good reason to tie maximum spell level to class rather than spellmeld/essentia.

Of course, this all means that depending on your class, you will never shape particular spellmelds, because getting their passive benefits will never outweigh getting your class's spells.

There hasn't been much talk about the spellpacts. Does this mean I'm good to go? Make a list of homebrew vestiges, assign subschools and passives to them, require players to build domains to get higher-level spells?

Well, the spellpacts thing is really just Domains writ large with a Binder coat. You can homebrew vestiges to fit needed niches and assign spells to existing vestiges, then to the Domain thing. As for said homebrew vestiges, have them stay scattered and odd, try to give them at least one full subschool access and then a bunch of spells that seem disjointed and bizarre until the moment you look at the fluff. For example, Tenser's Transformation and Mental Pinnacle look like they shouldn't be anywhere near eachother in the grab bag section of spells, given their contradictory flavor, but then you look at the fluff of the Vestige and it says the Vestige is somewhat obsessive with exchanging power between forms as one of it's three or four things that define it as a person. That's the key to Vestiges, they aren't just sets of abilities, the abilities are defined by a person with desires, opinions and powers of their own.

So you can have a Vestige that gives access to the Polymorph subschool, with the condition that assumed forms cannot have some odd little utility like flight or underwater breathing or must have some trait like an ability score above some number or have hands. Then their grab bag has stuff like Tenser's Transformation, Dimension Door and Web. Then, you have their fluff be that they had a phobia of some kind or obsession with some trait, with that one bit of fluff tying the abilities together, then give bits of fluff that explain why they went the way they did with the abilities used. The sign for using them could be directly linked to that phobia or obsession, with the abilities specifically providing incentives to avoid the thing and/or ways to bypass it.

Really, the key to Vestiges is that they are not generic, they are specific. They have conflicts among eachother, personal grudges and so on. Pact Magic is the most flavorful subsystem in the game because it's tied to it's fluff on almost every level. You cannot use two particular vestiges together because those two don't let you, you have the sign of the vestige because that's part of the deal, you need a Charisma check because you make a deal. You can have pages and pages of backstory for one Vestige, even a stat block for them as something other than a Vestige, because a Vestige can be that important to something. A Vestige is a character that your Binder bargains with off-screen for abilities, not just a bland bit of mechanics to abuse.

As for something to help streamline the process of making the vestiges, look up Greek and Roman mythology for gods to use for your setting's backstory and think about which ones might have the desire and ability to escape the "everything fails" by becoming a Vestige. Then look at the domains of those gods, particularly popular myths about them, and structure abilities based on the varied nonsense of those mythologies. You can also get Norse gods in, where Loki is a shoe in, because the filthy trickster has a lot of odd tricks including both shapeshifting and mind effecting magic while also being plausibly able to become a vestige. Lolth would also have a desire and potential ability to become a Vestige, because she truly does care about the Drow. This gives you some access to Cleric-as-Binder in a very traditional sense of Cleric, only instead of one God they follow a pantheon to get what's available of each member through Binding to bypass the "everything fails."

aimlessPolymath
2017-02-06, 05:02 PM
Looking over the thread, one thing that occurs to me is that since chakra binds exist in several tiers, you could choose to limit spell level by where the soulmeld is bound. By interweaving them with the levels at which chakra capacity expands, you can fill out the spells accessible by level:

-Without a chakra bind, you can only cast spells of level 1.
-By binding to the crown chakra, you can cast spells of level 2 or 3; however, you only get essentia capacity 2 at level 5, so 3rd level spells arrive on time if you make them require 2 essentia in the appropriate soulmeld.
-By binding to the feet or hands chakra, you can cast spells of level 4 and 5; however, you only get essentia capacity 3 at level 9, so 5th level spells arrive on time.
-By binding to the arms, brow, or shoulders, you can cast spells of levels 6 and 7- essentia capacity reaches 4 at level 13.
-By binding to the throat, or waist chakra, you can cast spells of levels 8 and 9- essentia capacity reaches 5 at level 17.

I picked those groupings of chakra binds because they are similar to those gained by the incarnate- they gain access to the crown chakra at level 2, then the feet and hands simultaneously at level 4, etc. Heart and soul chakras are left hanging by this set of pairings, so you can feel free to shuffle around the specific binds as you want- the crown chakra is currently standing alone at its level. If you want to avoid developing a passive effect for each and every chakra bind, you can format the chakra binds something like


Chakra Bind (Major)
A fires of justice soulmeld bound to the arms, brow, or shoulders chakra grants access to spells of up to 7th level. Furthermore, it protects the meldshaper with a continuous protection from chaos effect while it is bound, as long as at least 2 points of essentia are invested in it.

I like this model of spell level access, because it feels like a more natural add-on to the incarnum system- binds are gained at different levels, unlocking new and more powerful effects from the meld (spell levels). Furthermore, effects continue to compete to be bound- it's just that they compete to be bound in the higher level slots.

I don't think that limiting subschools by chakra bind makes sense unless all chakra binds are available at the start, because this effectively closes off spells with those descriptors at low levels. Furthermore, no similar nerf by mutual exclusion exists for other forms of spellcasting. It may also increase confusion on the player's side, depending on how they gain access to spells- a spellcaster who builds their daily selection of options first, then picks soulmelds, will have to then rebuild the list based on what conflicts arise, while a spell-level oriented system is easier to remember than having to check each spell against its pact binds.

Another thing that is missing is active spell selection and spells per day- do spellcasters have access to their entire spell list (fitting the appropriate descriptors for your soulmelds) at one time? Where does their spells per day come from?
That seems like it would cause option paralysis on the player's side. One thing you could use is the Spirit Shaman's spellcasting model, in which people pick spells (with appropriate descriptors and schools) from their spell list when they prepare spells, and then cast spells spontaneously from the resulting list over the course of the day. I like this combined model because it lets you apply both limiters from the above list easily- they need an appropriate chakra bind to prepare the spell, and the right essentia investment to cast it.


On pactbinding:
I am somewhat less comfortable with assigning schools and subschools to vestiges, which are historically less easy to categorize into neat boxes (as mentioned in my above post). Most vestiges have bizarre affinities like "Blood, armor, command of allies" (Savnok) "Bows, ego, and elves" (Leraje), etc. Deviating from that formula seems like it would pull away from what made pactbinding so cool- the idea that each being you summon is distinct in its own way.

I was going to say more about this, but Morphic tide beat me to it, and more completely than I could.
I will say that covering a full subschool is OK, but descriptors are a valid alternative- for example, the Evocation(Fire) subschool he mentions a couple posts up doesn't actually exist in vanilla 3.5- it's all just Evocation (as far as I know?). The Fire descriptor is a fine replacement, and it also covers some other stuff (like summoning fire elementals). The Polymorph subschool is from the Player's Handbook II.

Amechra
2017-02-06, 05:03 PM
This is neat. I like the idea of roving apocalypses.

Anyway, I've got some links to some good stuff that I think will interest you:

Binding for everyone! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?476509-Vulgar-Binding-(PEACH-and-Apologies))
An Incarnum class themed after the eight schools of Arcane magic! (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=15015.0)

...

I can't decide which Truenaming fix to point to...

aimlessPolymath
2017-02-06, 05:20 PM
Oh yeah- I forgot about the Arcantor! Good place to pull some effects from.

Another good place is the line of Reserve feats from Complete Mage.

Ammutseba
2017-02-07, 04:03 PM
Well, the spellpacts thing is really just Domains writ large with a Binder coat. You can homebrew vestiges to fit needed niches and assign spells to existing vestiges, then to the Domain thing. As for said homebrew vestiges, have them stay scattered and odd, try to give them at least one full subschool access and then a bunch of spells that seem disjointed and bizarre until the moment you look at the fluff. For example, Tenser's Transformation and Mental Pinnacle look like they shouldn't be anywhere near eachother in the grab bag section of spells, given their contradictory flavor, but then you look at the fluff of the Vestige and it says the Vestige is somewhat obsessive with exchanging power between forms as one of it's three or four things that define it as a person. That's the key to Vestiges, they aren't just sets of abilities, the abilities are defined by a person with desires, opinions and powers of their own.

So you can have a Vestige that gives access to the Polymorph subschool, with the condition that assumed forms cannot have some odd little utility like flight or underwater breathing or must have some trait like an ability score above some number or have hands. Then their grab bag has stuff like Tenser's Transformation, Dimension Door and Web. Then, you have their fluff be that they had a phobia of some kind or obsession with some trait, with that one bit of fluff tying the abilities together, then give bits of fluff that explain why they went the way they did with the abilities used. The sign for using them could be directly linked to that phobia or obsession, with the abilities specifically providing incentives to avoid the thing and/or ways to bypass it.

Really, the key to Vestiges is that they are not generic, they are specific. They have conflicts among eachother, personal grudges and so on. Pact Magic is the most flavorful subsystem in the game because it's tied to it's fluff on almost every level. You cannot use two particular vestiges together because those two don't let you, you have the sign of the vestige because that's part of the deal, you need a Charisma check because you make a deal. You can have pages and pages of backstory for one Vestige, even a stat block for them as something other than a Vestige, because a Vestige can be that important to something. A Vestige is a character that your Binder bargains with off-screen for abilities, not just a bland bit of mechanics to abuse.

As for something to help streamline the process of making the vestiges, look up Greek and Roman mythology for gods to use for your setting's backstory and think about which ones might have the desire and ability to escape the "everything fails" by becoming a Vestige. Then look at the domains of those gods, particularly popular myths about them, and structure abilities based on the varied nonsense of those mythologies. You can also get Norse gods in, where Loki is a shoe in, because the filthy trickster has a lot of odd tricks including both shapeshifting and mind effecting magic while also being plausibly able to become a vestige. Lolth would also have a desire and potential ability to become a Vestige, because she truly does care about the Drow. This gives you some access to Cleric-as-Binder in a very traditional sense of Cleric, only instead of one God they follow a pantheon to get what's available of each member through Binding to bypass the "everything fails."


Looking over the thread, one thing that occurs to me is that since chakra binds exist in several tiers, you could choose to limit spell level by where the soulmeld is bound. By interweaving them with the levels at which chakra capacity expands, you can fill out the spells accessible by level:

-Without a chakra bind, you can only cast spells of level 1.
-By binding to the crown chakra, you can cast spells of level 2 or 3; however, you only get essentia capacity 2 at level 5, so 3rd level spells arrive on time if you make them require 2 essentia in the appropriate soulmeld.
-By binding to the feet or hands chakra, you can cast spells of level 4 and 5; however, you only get essentia capacity 3 at level 9, so 5th level spells arrive on time.
-By binding to the arms, brow, or shoulders, you can cast spells of levels 6 and 7- essentia capacity reaches 4 at level 13.
-By binding to the throat, or waist chakra, you can cast spells of levels 8 and 9- essentia capacity reaches 5 at level 17.

I picked those groupings of chakra binds because they are similar to those gained by the incarnate- they gain access to the crown chakra at level 2, then the feet and hands simultaneously at level 4, etc. Heart and soul chakras are left hanging by this set of pairings, so you can feel free to shuffle around the specific binds as you want- the crown chakra is currently standing alone at its level. If you want to avoid developing a passive effect for each and every chakra bind, you can format the chakra binds something like



I like this model of spell level access, because it feels like a more natural add-on to the incarnum system- binds are gained at different levels, unlocking new and more powerful effects from the meld (spell levels). Furthermore, effects continue to compete to be bound- it's just that they compete to be bound in the higher level slots.

I don't think that limiting subschools by chakra bind makes sense unless all chakra binds are available at the start, because this effectively closes off spells with those descriptors at low levels. Furthermore, no similar nerf by mutual exclusion exists for other forms of spellcasting. It may also increase confusion on the player's side, depending on how they gain access to spells- a spellcaster who builds their daily selection of options first, then picks soulmelds, will have to then rebuild the list based on what conflicts arise, while a spell-level oriented system is easier to remember than having to check each spell against its pact binds.

Another thing that is missing is active spell selection and spells per day- do spellcasters have access to their entire spell list (fitting the appropriate descriptors for your soulmelds) at one time? Where does their spells per day come from?
That seems like it would cause option paralysis on the player's side. One thing you could use is the Spirit Shaman's spellcasting model, in which people pick spells (with appropriate descriptors and schools) from their spell list when they prepare spells, and then cast spells spontaneously from the resulting list over the course of the day. I like this combined model because it lets you apply both limiters from the above list easily- they need an appropriate chakra bind to prepare the spell, and the right essentia investment to cast it.


On pactbinding:
I am somewhat less comfortable with assigning schools and subschools to vestiges, which are historically less easy to categorize into neat boxes (as mentioned in my above post). Most vestiges have bizarre affinities like "Blood, armor, command of allies" (Savnok) "Bows, ego, and elves" (Leraje), etc. Deviating from that formula seems like it would pull away from what made pactbinding so cool- the idea that each being you summon is distinct in its own way.

I was going to say more about this, but Morphic tide beat me to it, and more completely than I could.
I will say that covering a full subschool is OK, but descriptors are a valid alternative- for example, the Evocation(Fire) subschool he mentions a couple posts up doesn't actually exist in vanilla 3.5- it's all just Evocation (as far as I know?). The Fire descriptor is a fine replacement, and it also covers some other stuff (like summoning fire elementals). The Polymorph subschool is from the Player's Handbook II.

Right now I'm struggling a little, going back and forth. I'd love to go into this kind of detail, and you're spot on, but I also need to remember that these are Alternative Class Features, not subsystems. Due to what they're replacing, they could be a bit longer than the standard, but I also need to make sure that the investment requirement to get them is not so large that most players will leave it alone on dint of how much reading they'd have to pore over to figure out their spells.

Yes, vestiges need to be specific, but this acf needs a way to address that specificity without taking hours of a player's time before they're awarded spells for their hard work. The same, of course, goes for soulmelds, but in their own unique way.

Fled gods with strong bonds to their people does make a lot of sense for new vestiges, though.


This is neat. I like the idea of roving apocalypses.

Anyway, I've got some links to some good stuff that I think will interest you:

Binding for everyone! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?476509-Vulgar-Binding-(PEACH-and-Apologies))
An Incarnum class themed after the eight schools of Arcane magic! (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=15015.0)

...

I can't decide which Truenaming fix to point to...

I've never seen Vulgar Binding before! That is fantastic! :D And of course I'm a fan of the Arcantor.

aimlessPolymath
2017-02-07, 05:11 PM
Mmh... You're right, building vestiges for the system is a bit much, and adds too much complexity.

I wonder if we could take a leaf out of Domains' book...

Rough outline:
Characters have a semi-fixed spellcasting list. They have made safe contact with X vestiges, gaining more with level. Each vestige is composed of three parts:
A "Theme", which could be anything; "Fire", "Swords", or "Fear of the dark" are all valid themes. (alternatively, build a short description of the vestige to draw themes from- Lerage is "Elvish archer with an ego".
A set of Y spells, each linked to the vestiges theme, within a range of 2-3 spell levels; 2-3 of the Vestige's level, plus a few of lower levels. Connections to the theme should be fairly straightforwards.

Notably, the player is the one to build the vestige instead of you, based on the theme they choose- this puts less onus on you as the DM to build it for them. I chose not to include Influence in vestige creation due to the ability for the player to decide it- it's too easy for the player to pick something easy to deal with.

Each day, they choose some smaller number of vestiges to contract for the day. Their combined spell list forms the spells available to the player that day. They make a Diplomacy or other pact-related check at spell preparation. If they fail, they still get their spells, but have some form of Influence mechanic applied to them for the day- I'm not sure how it works.

Key features:
-Players build vestiges for you around relatively tight themes. As the DM, you do need to OK the vestiges, but it's fairly low-stress since all the spells are ones they would get anyway as spellcasters.
-Pact binding checks make an appearance during spell preparation
-Vestiges arranged in distinct tiers- new vestige levels available over time.
-Some opportunity for tweaking individual vestiges by putting together templates for players to pick from- perhaps one which gives fewer spells, but grants a bonus feat?
-Rather than general vestiges which grant "all spells in a school" plus a bit, this ties more to the original binder by building themed vestiges.

Missing:
-Actual vestige influence mechanic, or a way of generating Influences for player vestiges- this is one way in which vestiges bring out their personality, and I'm stuck on how to easily generate it. Perhaps some form of law which the player is barred from breaking without penalties?
-Some way of determining how linked a spell is to a vestige. Perhaps a system where players can add restrictions to the spells to make them more closely tied (i.e. summon monster III, but only to summon fire creatures) in order to get the OK?
-Vestiges as characters with stories- they're currently closer to spell lists with themes, which is halfway there.

Morphic tide, do you have any thoughts on player-built vestiges as a way to decrease DM work?

Ammutseba
2017-02-07, 06:25 PM
Taking apart the pact binding system like that does help to establish what the different part of pact binding are. Here are a couple ideas.

Spellpact vestiges don't have levels. Instead, we have a list of vestiges who can be bound in certain combinations depending on their individual personalities. Each one has an influence and a sign. Escaped deities, Leviathan and Zargon, and perhaps some of the existing vestiges could be used as the list of spellpact vestiges. Each spellpact vestige has a number of themes associated with it, which are used to build its spell lists. These themes are specific, though. Things like "evocation spells that can deal fire damage," or "spells of the polymorph subschool," or "spells that can affect a character's Wisdom score."

Pactcasters are limited by the number of spellpact vestiges they can have bound, and by their maximum spell level. Each spellpact vestige can have up to four spell slots it provides, and each spell on a vestige's list can be no more than 1 level higher than the one before it. One spellpact vestige can be aligned to another one to treat them as occurring in a "path," allowing players access to higher level spells at cost of their breadth of ability.

This might be a good place for "prepared metamagics" to appear, too. Putting a metamagic into a spell slot of the appropriate level would give pactcasters quite a bit of flexibility.

The binding DCs are derived from the sum of 10 + the spells they provide... or something like that. Pactcasters may cast spells from their vestiges once, but regenerate the slots by making binding checks to bind the spells/metamagics afresh. This means they can cast their spells theoretically without limit, as long as they keep passing the binding checks, but it also means that they slow down after brief periods of magical activity, and may not have the best endurance.

Instead of binding a spell, each spellpact vestige might have an ability or two that can be bound in the stead of a spell, which follows the normal rules for a vestige ability. This can help a pactcaster regain their missing endurance, but comes at the cost of always being the same ability, not the freedom of Spell X.


This should combine the two different approaches. We build the vestiges, but the players build what they get out of them, maximizing their freedom without giving them absolute reign.

aimlessPolymath
2017-02-07, 07:40 PM
Taking apart the pact binding system like that does help to establish what the different part of pact binding are.

The key points which I'd like to see represented are:
-Vestiges as characters with personalities
-Vestiges have influence over the people who bind them
-Vestiges have distinct sets of abilities which don't change over time.
Things which I can take or leave:
-Vestiges' powers are unlimited over time, but require time to recharge between uses. This is pretty much the opposite of spellcasters' standard model, so it makes balancing pactcasting more difficult- clerics with unlimited out-of-combat healing at level 1 but only have one spell cast during the entire battle, or more problematically spellcasters who cast one spell and then wait around for the rest of combat. Buffs in particular fall towards the "more powerful" end of the spectrum, since you can cast them and forget them.


Spellpact vestiges don't have levels. Instead, we have a list of vestiges who can be bound in certain combinations depending on their individual personalities. Each one has an influence and a sign. Escaped deities, Leviathan and Zargon, and perhaps some of the existing vestiges could be used as the list of spellpact vestiges. Each spellpact vestige has a number of themes associated with it, which are used to build its spell lists. These themes are specific, though. Things like "evocation spells that can deal fire damage," or "spells of the polymorph subschool," or "spells that can affect a character's Wisdom score."

Once the themes are assigned, you still need to be able to build a spell list- I think assigning specific spells to each vestige makes sense.

I also think that general themes (2 or 3 per vestige) work better than specific requirements for building spell lists. Let's take "spells that can affect a character's Wisdom score" and try the 2-4 spell level range for wizards- say a 7th level player is picking them out. From core, we have Owl's Wisdom, Touch of Idiocy, and Bestow Curse(sometimes). From the Spell Compendium, we can grab Phantasmal Assailants and Mind Poison.

It's a small list, but more importantly, it's not a particularly cohesive one- the spells which affect Wisdom sometimes improve it, and sometimes reduce it. Suppose we're building something for Dalver-Nar. If we allow the more abstract themes of "madness", we lose Owls Wisdom and Bestow Curse, but can grab Daze Monster (justifying it by his original Maddening Scream causing daze), Rage, Confusion, Phantasmal Killer, and Fear from core, and Dissonant Chant, Phantom Foe, Blade of Pain and Fear (also it's made from teeth) from the Spell Compendium. Some of those are stretches, admittedly, but I think it's better to be permissive about what spells fit the theme than to restrict ourselves to specific effects.

Meanwhile, limiting "fire" to evocation spells prevents a caster from picking summon monster II(fire elementals only), resist energy(fire only) (which doesn't even have the energy descriptor), pyrotechnics(which doesn't either), or flame arrow. A rule-based system just doesn't work as well as a DM-okayed one.

Downside to this approach is, of course, spells can slip through the cracks.


Pactcasters are limited by the number of spellpact vestiges they can have bound, and by their maximum spell level.
Makes sense.

Each spellpact vestige can have up to four spell slots it provides, and each spell on a vestige's list can be no more than 1 level higher than the one before it.
I'm not quite sure what you mean by this sentence. It sounds like you're combining two separate limitations into one, correct? One of them is that each spellpact vestige provides up to four spell slots, while the second says that the spells need to be of contiguous levels, right? The first limitation seems to refer to spells per day, while the second spells known. Given what I read below, do you mean that a spellpact vestige provides up to four spells at a time, of contiguous levels?


One spellpact vestige can be aligned to another one to treat them as occurring in a "path," allowing players access to higher level spells at cost of their breadth of ability.
I'm unsure by what you mean by "aligned". Do you mean that if you have one vestige with spell levels 2-4, you can then bind another vestige which has spells which start at 5th level? I'm not entirely sure how this costs people their breadth of ability


This might be a good place for "prepared metamagics" to appear, too. Putting a metamagic into a spell slot of the appropriate level would give pactcasters quite a bit of flexibility.
Not sure I understand how this works- I don't quite understand how this spell preparation mechanic works with the previous sentences in that paragraph.



The binding DCs are derived from the sum of 10 + the spells they provide... or something like that. Pactcasters may cast spells from their vestiges once, but regenerate the slots by making binding checks to bind the spells/metamagics afresh. This means they can cast their spells theoretically without limit, as long as they keep passing the binding checks, but it also means that they slow down after brief periods of magical activity, and may not have the best endurance.

Hm. This seems to be the basic method of casting. It looks like you're drawing inspiration from the surface level of binding, which is that binders have a few passive and a few active abilities, but the active abilities have cooldown. You've adapted that mechanism into spellcasting by having spells have cooldown. I just remembered this, but something similar which has been done is recharge magic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/rechargeMagic.htm). I'm (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?144622-3-5-Recharge-Magic-Variant) not (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?365100-What-would-you-do-with-a-caster-with-Recharge-Magic-in-play-3-5) sure (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=868.0)about (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?118367-Recharge-Magic-3-5)using (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=3467.0) it (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?362023-recharge-magic-varient-is-it-worth-it).
A normal Vancian Casting variant might be easier to balance.


Instead of binding a spell, each spellpact vestige might have an ability or two that can be bound in the stead of a spell, which follows the normal rules for a vestige ability. This can help a pactcaster regain their missing endurance, but comes at the cost of always being the same ability, not the freedom of Spell X.
I like that this allows pactcasters an option to use throughout the day. I worry that you would need to come up with an ability for each vestige.

Ammutseba
2017-02-08, 03:04 AM
The key points which I'd like to see represented are:
-Vestiges as characters with personalities
-Vestiges have influence over the people who bind them
-Vestiges have distinct sets of abilities which don't change over time.
Things which I can take or leave:
-Vestiges' powers are unlimited over time, but require time to recharge between uses. This is pretty much the opposite of spellcasters' standard model, so it makes balancing pactcasting more difficult- clerics with unlimited out-of-combat healing at level 1 but only have one spell cast during the entire battle, or more problematically spellcasters who cast one spell and then wait around for the rest of combat. Buffs in particular fall towards the "more powerful" end of the spectrum, since you can cast them and forget them.

Okay. :)


Once the themes are assigned, you still need to be able to build a spell list- I think assigning specific spells to each vestige makes sense.

I also think that general themes (2 or 3 per vestige) work better than specific requirements for building spell lists. Let's take "spells that can affect a character's Wisdom score" and try the 2-4 spell level range for wizards- say a 7th level player is picking them out. From core, we have Owl's Wisdom, Touch of Idiocy, and Bestow Curse(sometimes). From the Spell Compendium, we can grab Phantasmal Assailants and Mind Poison.

It's a small list, but more importantly, it's not a particularly cohesive one- the spells which affect Wisdom sometimes improve it, and sometimes reduce it. Suppose we're building something for Dalver-Nar. If we allow the more abstract themes of "madness", we lose Owls Wisdom and Bestow Curse, but can grab Daze Monster (justifying it by his original Maddening Scream causing daze), Rage, Confusion, Phantasmal Killer, and Fear from core, and Dissonant Chant, Phantom Foe, Blade of Pain and Fear (also it's made from teeth) from the Spell Compendium. Some of those are stretches, admittedly, but I think it's better to be permissive about what spells fit the theme than to restrict ourselves to specific effects.

Meanwhile, limiting "fire" to evocation spells prevents a caster from picking summon monster II(fire elementals only), resist energy(fire only) (which doesn't even have the energy descriptor), pyrotechnics(which doesn't either), or flame arrow. A rule-based system just doesn't work as well as a DM-okayed one.

Downside to this approach is, of course, spells can slip through the cracks.

I agree with your reasoning, but how about a compromise? Not everyone will put in the work, and not everyone's understanding of what constitutes a spell as part of the theme is the same as each other's. So, how about if the themes also come with a short list of suggested spells. This should minimize the work for players and DMs who don't want to search high and low for spells that fit the theme but are also quite powerful, but not limit players and DMs who want to put their expertise to the test.



I'm not quite sure what you mean by this sentence. It sounds like you're combining two separate limitations into one, correct? One of them is that each spellpact vestige provides up to four spell slots, while the second says that the spells need to be of contiguous levels, right? The first limitation seems to refer to spells per day, while the second spells known. Given what I read below, do you mean that a spellpact vestige provides up to four spells at a time, of contiguous levels?

I'm unsure by what you mean by "aligned". Do you mean that if you have one vestige with spell levels 2-4, you can then bind another vestige which has spells which start at 5th level? I'm not entirely sure how this costs people their breadth of ability

You have nearly accurately described both of these things. A spellpact vestige provides up to 4 spell slots (although it could be less, depending on the individual vestige), which the player fills in with spells that fit the described themes. Say for instance that we have Leviathan being bound as a spellpact vestige. One of its themes is "stormy waters," and it does provide 4 spell slots. A Cleric 9 is trying to get hypothermia with this bind, so to get it, she'll first need to assign spells of levels 1, 2 and 3 to the vestige so that she can reach this particular spell. She chooses anarchic water, fog cloud and unholy storm. The Cleric is not required to choose spells that run in such a series. She could have chosen one 1st level spell and three 2nd level spells, for example, but to get to level 4, she needs a level 3, which needs a level 2...

The real Leviathan will have one or two more themes, but I hope this helps to illuminate what I mean.

By "aligned," I do mean that if one vestige is providing a 4th level spell, the next one can start on a 5th level spell. However, it can do that for only 1... hm, no. That won't work. :/ Okay... I'll table this thought for now and ask for suggestions.


Not sure I understand how this works- I don't quite understand how this spell preparation mechanic works with the previous sentences in that paragraph.

I didn't get it at first, either. But in the above example, if one of Levi's other themes were "immense size," then instead of unholy storm, that Cleric might fill in her level 3 slot on Leviathan with Widen Spell, treating it as though it were a spell for the purpose of preparation. Later, when she casts another spell, she could spend Widen Spell from Leviathan at the same time, applying the metamagic on the fly as long as the combined spell level doesn't exceed her maximum.


Hm. This seems to be the basic method of casting. It looks like you're drawing inspiration from the surface level of binding, which is that binders have a few passive and a few active abilities, but the active abilities have cooldown. You've adapted that mechanism into spellcasting by having spells have cooldown. I just remembered this, but something similar which has been done is recharge magic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/rechargeMagic.htm). I'm (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?144622-3-5-Recharge-Magic-Variant) not (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?365100-What-would-you-do-with-a-caster-with-Recharge-Magic-in-play-3-5) sure (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=868.0)about (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?118367-Recharge-Magic-3-5)using (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=3467.0) it (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?362023-recharge-magic-varient-is-it-worth-it).
A normal Vancian Casting variant might be easier to balance.

A schedule of vestiges bound should be drawn up, and then we can talk spell frequency. I would like to stick with the binder-like "few abilities, often" mechanic, but that's just for theme.

As a start, I supply this not-a-table:

Full Casters
Caster Vestiges Max Spell
Level Bound Level
1 1 1st
2 1 1st
3 1 2nd
4 1 2nd
5 1 3rd
6 2 3rd
7 2 4th
8 2 4th
9 2 5th
10 2 5th
11 3 6th
12 3 6th
13 3 7th
14 3 7th
15 3 8th
16 4 8th
17 4 9th
18 4 9th
19 4 9th
20 4 9th

As you can see, it's a very simple breakdown. However, under this prescription, pact casters will never have more than 16 spells prepared at one time. For a high-level caster, this is very few spells. Should another schedule be used, is this alright, or is there another solution?


I like that this allows pactcasters an option to use throughout the day. I worry that you would need to come up with an ability for each vestige.

Making an ability or two for each vestige is easy. Making complete sets of abilities is a little more time consuming, but that's what I won't be doing.

aimlessPolymath
2017-02-08, 12:37 PM
I agree with your reasoning, but how about a compromise? Not everyone will put in the work, and not everyone's understanding of what constitutes a spell as part of the theme is the same as each other's. So, how about if the themes also come with a short list of suggested spells. This should minimize the work for players and DMs who don't want to search high and low for spells that fit the theme but are also quite powerful, but not limit players and DMs who want to put their expertise to the test.
That sounds like a good compromise to me.


I didn't get it at first, either. But in the above example, if one of Levi's other themes were "immense size," then instead of unholy storm, that Cleric might fill in her level 3 slot on Leviathan with Widen Spell, treating it as though it were a spell for the purpose of preparation. Later, when she casts another spell, she could spend Widen Spell from Leviathan at the same time, applying the metamagic on the fly as long as the combined spell level doesn't exceed her maximum.
I see- that makes sense. I do like the idea of giving players the option to tweak the options they get from vestiges. The option to get a vestige-specific ability is nice.
Since the system of casting is based on repeatedly-regained spell slots, what do you think of the option to gain a Persistent spell on the pactcaster, if it is a spell which they would get anyway, and lasts at least 1 minute/level?


As you can see, it's a very simple breakdown. However, under this prescription, pact casters will never have more than 16 spells prepared at one time. For a high-level caster, this is very few spells. Should another schedule be used, is this alright, or is there another solution?
Hm.
I might replace the specified number of spell slots for each individual vestige with a single pool of spells known, shared between all vestiges, or have the number of spells per vestige increase with level.
This could provide a method of stretching the class up to 9th level spells (since each vestige can chain the whole way), if an awkward one, and it also makes the progression of new spells less chunky. At 5th level, a spellcaster currently has one spell of 1st through 3rd, plus one, which would strongly incentivize picking only picking staple spells (haste, fireball) and relatively one-dimensional play (since they only have one vestige's theme to work with. Perhaps accelerating the 2nd vestige to level 3, allowing the player to pick out more varied spells early on? I'm less sure on where things go from there, though.
Another thing which could be done to get to high level spells is allow high-level vestiges (if you keep the mechanic of vestiges having levels) to start above 1st level spells.

The model of casting is different enough from normal magic that I'm not confident in my balancing skills.

Ammutseba
2017-02-10, 12:58 AM
This project is going on hold for some time, while I write up those vestiges, soulmelds, and the surrounding acfs for casting in this setting. :) Thanks for all your help!