Range advantage while prone.

[Fishyninja]

Evening all.

Here is a question say a characted has a ranged weapon that is built into a body or chassis:


Hand Crossbow
Crossbow
Rifle
Any ranged weapon with a shoulder stock


So I understand being prone gives you advantage against ranged attacks (makes sense being a smaller target to hit), so therefore would being prone, and therefore being on a more stable platform (potentially) give you advantage for your ranged attacks against creatures?

[Xethik]

Normally, being prone gives you disadvantage on such attacks, I believe. Are you saying canceling out that advantage? Or both canceling out that disadvantage and adding advantage.
I think ranged weapons are strong enough as-is (crossbows or otherwise) and I wouldn't lightly give them any bonus such as advantage, especially for doing something that is already somewhat advantageous.

[Fishyninja]

Normally, being prone gives you disadvantage on such attacks, I believe. Are you saying canceling out that advantage? Or both canceling out that disadvantage and adding advantage.
I think ranged weapons are strong enough as-is (crossbows or otherwise) and I wouldn't lightly give them any bonus such as advantage, especially for doing something that is already somewhat advantageous.

You are kinda of there.

I understand that if your character lies prone you gain advantage against Ranged attacks made against you (as stated because you are a smaller target).

What I am saying is if you are prone with a ranged weapon that has a body or chassis (as listed above) would being prone give you advantage on your attacks against creatures as you are in a more stable position.

Think of someone trying to fire a rifle standing up as opposed being in a prone position. As the ground takes the weight of the rifle and is unmoving (assuming a bipod) that person is going to have a more stable shooting platform than someone who is standing up straight and taking the length or the rifle/crossbow in their off hand.

[Provo]

By RAW, no.

A DM could house rule this. However, combat is very fast paced, and I would think it takes time to set your weapon up for that added accuracy. And if somebody came up from behind you would still be no more prepared to shoot them.

As a DM, I would probably let a prone character spend an action to aim at a target. Then they would have advantage afterward.

[Specter]

It makes sense for realism, but not for balance. It that was the way, all snipers would just lay low and terrorize the enemy.

[Mellack]

As others have said, the game rules state you have disadvantage on all attacks made while prone. That applies to both ranged and melee. partly that is for balance. It also makes sense in that bracing like you describe takes time and is really only useful at long ranges directly in front of you. At the more common D&D fight distance you would have to be shifting too much to get any use.

[Fishyninja]

Thanks everyone.

I did a little research before hand and I couldn't think of anything.
I do see your point it makes sense realistically but otherwise as Specter said you could just set up camp somewhere and terrorise the enemy.
Also if your character had the Athlete feat it would allow you to move to different nests as well.

I'll talk to my DM about this, no biggie if he says no though I feel he has given me a pretty decent start in this campaign already.

[Arkhios]

I, for one, am for the realism point of view. However, I would just remove the disadvantage - not give advantage - to attack with a crossbow or a firearm while in prone position. Standing up from prone is its own predicament so, if you have to get up in a hurry, you're in trouble anyway.

[Regitnui]

I'll also point out that while a nested sniper is a real problem for infantry in our world, when a wizard can carpet-bomb an area with fireballs and most spells have similar range to ranged weapons, you don't want to be prone vs enemy magic.

[Contrast]

I'm not sure I'm convinced of the 'realism' argument. I'm not an expert but would it not be much more difficult to reload a historic crossbow or rifle from a prone position than it is a modern rifle?

There's obviously a lot of hand waving about such things anyway but as others have said it would be a little unbalancing as well. If I was DMing I would be inclined to say no to this. At most I might consider letting them take an action to set up to cancel out the disadvantage for a narrow angle and attacking outside of that angle cancels the whole thing.


I'll also point out that while a nested sniper is a real problem for infantry in our world, when a wizard can carpet-bomb an area with fireballs and most spells have similar range to ranged weapons, you don't want to be prone vs enemy magic.

I don't think being prone actually makes you more vulnerable to magic (and in some cases less if they need to make a spell attack roll).

[Arkhios]

Attacking ≠ Reloading.

It's far more easier to aim and remain still while prone as opposed to being standing.

Reloading such a weapon while prone might indeed be more difficult.
I think it would be enough if loading while prone would cost you your movement for that turn. You'd be a sitting duck.

[Regitnui]

I don't think being prone actually makes you more vulnerable to magic (and in some cases less if they need to make a spell attack roll).

A caster can still aim for an area, no? If you're under fire from an area, whether it's an invisible monster or prone sniper, the Bolshevik Muppet solution of just hitting everything works pretty well for killing something you can't see. The caster gets no explicit advantage to hit, but lying or sitting prone leaves you at a disadvantage to moving out of the way.

[Contrast]

It's far more easier to aim and remain still while prone as opposed to being standing.

My point was that the supposed advantage of lying prone is taking the time to set the weapon, steady it and then fire.

If you have to keep on rolling over, sitting up, man handle the weapon around then roll back over and try to set it up again you're not really getting any benefit as I see it. Certainly not sufficient benefit to justify granting advantage.

As I said, if I were to allow it as a DM, it would probably require giving up an action to gain advantage on a single attack - basically the True Strike cantrip. I would probably do the same thing for someone standing if they said they were spending their turn aiming however.

[Fishyninja]

I'm not sure I'm convinced of the 'realism' argument. I'm not an expert but would it not be much more difficult to reload a historic crossbow or rifle from a prone position than it is a modern rifle?


Attacking ≠ Reloading.

It's far more easier to aim and remain still while prone as opposed to being standing.

Reloading such a weapon while prone might indeed be more difficult.
I think it would be enough if loading while prone would cost you your movement for that turn. You'd be a sitting duck.

I was mainly conerned with the attack. In regards to a musket you could reload it while prone but you would need to first bring the muzzle about face, pour in your charge, wadding, then pull out the ram rod and tamp the mixture, then place your ball down and ram that too. Not impossible, but completely impractical.

With a crossbow it is a little easier as you are pulling the string lateral to the ground towards you and thus along the same axis as you, jsut stick the stock against your sternum and yank.

Realism mechanics aside the Crossbow and Rifle both have to take an action to reload anyway (I know you can reload a rifle with a bonus action).
I also understand getting up uses half your movement speed as well so it is not a tactic to utilise a lot (unless you have the Athlete feat), I was just curious to the ruling.

So to confirm:
When PC is prone, ranged attacks have disadvantage against them, melee attacks have advantage.
When PC is prone, PC's attacks do not change.

Sound about right?

[Arkhios]

My point was that the supposed advantage of lying prone is taking the time to set the weapon, steady it and then fire.

If you have to keep on rolling over, sitting up, man handle the weapon around then roll back over and try to set it up again you're not really getting any benefit as I see it. Certainly not sufficient benefit to justify granting advantage.

As I said, if I were to allow it as a DM, it would probably require giving up an action to gain advantage on a single attack - basically the True Strike cantrip. I would probably do the same thing for someone standing if they said they were spending their turn aiming however.

Ah, okay. It seems I misunderstood you. My point was primarily that it's plausible to not have disadvantage on attacks with certain weapons, if prone. No advantage, definitely, but no disadvantage either.

[Tanarii]

A few of you seem to be assuming the Prone condition means lying flat on your stomach with you arms and weapon extended in front of you.

There's no reason a DM could grant a PC that intentionally took that position with a crossbow advantage on their first attack, which would cancel out the normal disadvantage from being prone. Dms are free, in fact IIRC even encouraged, to grant advantage / disadvantage when they feel it's appropriate.

*edit: no reason they couldn't grant advantage. Not could. Stupid double negatives.

[Fishyninja]

IIRC

*Raises Hand* *Looks Nervous* IIRC?

[Tanarii]

*Raises Hand* *Looks Nervous* IIRC?
IIRC = If I Recall Correctly.

[Fishyninja]

Ta Muchly.

[Contrast]

I was mainly conerned with the attack. In regards to a musket you could reload it while prone but you would need to first bring the muzzle about face, pour in your charge, wadding, then pull out the ram rod and tamp the mixture, then place your ball down and ram that too. Not impossible, but completely impractical.

With a crossbow it is a little easier as you are pulling the string lateral to the ground towards you and thus along the same axis as you, jsut stick the stock against your sternum and yank.

Realism mechanics aside the Crossbow and Rifle both have to take an action to reload anyway (I know you can reload a rifle with a bonus action).
I also understand getting up uses half your movement speed as well so it is not a tactic to utilise a lot (unless you have the Athlete feat), I was just curious to the ruling.

I wasn't trying to argue so much about reloading (as I said this is hand waved anyway - a high level fighter with crossbow expert can load and fire a crossbow 8 times in 6 seconds :smalltongue:). I'm obviously not being very clear - the point I was trying to make is that you're going to have to keep removing the weapon from its resting position to load it (the justification for the bonus being that the prone position allows you to stabilise the weapon better?), I'm not clear how you're justifying getting any significant advantage to your shots.


So to confirm:
When PC is prone, ranged attacks have disadvantage against them, melee attacks have advantage.
When PC is prone, PC's attacks do not change.

Well, as has been said, the rules say if you are prone you make all attacks with disadvantage. It's up to your DM if they want to grant you advantage for some reason (such as an pseudo-aim action or any other justification) which would cancel out the disadvantage so you rolled to hit as normal.

[Fishyninja]

I wasn't trying to argue so much about reloading (as I said this is hand waved anyway - a high level fighter with crossbow expert can load and fire a crossbow 8 times in 6 seconds :smalltongue:). I'm obviously not being very clear - the point I was trying to make is that you're going to have to keep removing the weapon from its resting position to load it (the justification for the bonus being that the prone position allows you to stabilise the weapon better?), I'm not clear how you're justifying getting any significant advantage to your shots.

I'm with you now, I think the whole reloading side note is confusing things somewhat. I understand that with a musket (what my character uses) I either have to pass a dex save to reload as a bonus action or take a turn reloading. I get that. Also it makes sense that the character would do this while standing and not prone.

I solely wanted to know that if I was going to take a single shot while prone would I gain advantage due to being on a more stable platform. This would primarily be for more roleplying scenarios rather than full on encounters and even if it was for an encounter being at a further distance where my rolls had disdavantage, this might be a suitable way to possibly make that shot. It would be a once in a while (if ever tactic), was asking more oout of interest.

The answer seems to be no which is fine.