CR of deities and deity-like creatures

[Jack Frost]

Hello,

At the moment I'm planning to continue a campaign where the characters are level 20. They're going to progress according to the epic levels handbook, and I'd like to cuminate the campaign with a fight against a god-like creature.

We play in Eberron, and I'd like them to fight Tiamat (a demon overlord in that campaign setting). I've found a block of statistics for Tiamat in the Deities and demigods book but there's not a CR listed in the block. I've also found Sul Khatesh's (another overlord) statistics, but once again, with no CR. Obviously I'd tone down a bit the special abilities of Tiamat, but I just want to be sure of what level should the characters be to fight them and not die in the first round.

Any ideas about this?

[Thurbane]

There's a CR25 version of Tiamat in Manual of the Planes (p.118).

[Jack Frost]

Oh, sweet!

Thanks a lot!

Still wondering about the CR of creatures such as Sul Khatesh, though.

:smallbiggrin:

[ngilop]

I would not worry too much about CR of dieties.

Remember that the CR system is based on a very specific group make-up and optimization build.

It is borken more than a few times in the 1-20 range. let alone literally worthless post 20. The truth is, your characters are going to most likely mop the floor with Tiamat in the first round, not vice versa.

[Hurnn]

Use the MoP one unless you want to kill your players. The Deities and Demigods one is probably unbeatable unless you let it happen or your party is insanely optimized.

[Ualaa]

You could create challenges over 20th level by adding classes to monsters that aren't CR 20.

Take something like a Balor, and give it levels in Barbarian or Fighter.
Or be more subtle, and give a Succubus levels in Sorcerer... to take advantage of her massive Charisma modifier.
You don't necessarily need to use fiends.

If you have access to 4th edition monster manuals, their system goes to 30th level... so there will be plenty of creatures that are over CR 20.

Similarly, Legendary Games has a mythic monster manual.
Mythic would add a significant challenge to a creature -- approximately worth 1 CR per 2 mythic ranks.

If you want to challenge the party, going with multiple opponents who are at least strong enough to survive a few rounds each, will stack the action economy against them.
When your five (level 21) PCs have five sets of actions, a CR 26 monster with one set of actions is going to fall in short order.
If instead you place eight CR 22 mobs on the board, you have a similar EL encounter but now the monsters have more actions which makes it much harder for the players.