Necromancer building help

[Colonel Snazzy]

Hello,

For an up-coming campaign I would like to play as a necromancer. My aim is to have as many heavy-crossbow skelymen as possible.

For race, I was thinking as playing as a LE Lesser Aasimar for that delicious +2 to cha and wis with no LA.

Not sure whether to achieve necromancer via Cleric (If so, would appreciate assistance with choosing domains) or Dread Necromancer. (uncertain of the merits of DN for skelemen-spamming.)

Dm is allowing all rulebooks with the exception of BoVD and BoED. (for obvious reasons - R.I.P Verminlord:smallfrown:) Strictly no homebrew (DM thinks that its usually a bit OP)

I am in a party of 6 with a Ballista-wielding Minotaur/Half-ogre, Master of the Unseen Hand, Warforged Fighter, and 2 uncertain. The average party level is about level 5-6

Many thanks,
Colonel Snazzypants:smallcool:

[OldTrees1]

Based upon your party composition I would suggest a Dread Necromancer (Cleric might be too strong and not necromancy enough). They can amass just as many (actually more) skeleton archers than a Cleric and don't have to go domain & deity shopping to get all 3 control pools.

Dread Necromancers are also Cha based which usually does not affect your minonmancy. However contested control often uses opposed Cha checks.

[Kelb_Panthera]

DN all the way. If you get that far along, use your level 16 advanced learning to nab the MoF or PGtF version of general of undeath (the SpC version is crap).

[Colonel Snazzy]

Based upon your party composition I would suggest a Dread Necromancer (Cleric might be too strong and not necromancy enough). They can amass just as many (actually more) skeleton archers than a Cleric and don't have to go domain & deity shopping to get all 3 control pools.

Dread Necromancers are also Cha based which usually does not affect your minonmancy. However contested control often uses opposed Cha checks.

My only problem with DN was that it takes a lot longer to actually be able to raise dead. (I think.) To my knowledge cleric got there at level 5, whereas DN gets there at level 8. I may be spectacularly wrong though.

[OldTrees1]

My only problem with DN was that it takes a lot longer to actually be able to raise dead. (I think) to my knowledge cleric got there at level 5, whereas DN gets there at level 8. I may be spectacularly wrong though.

Well, for a cost you can get animate dead earlier. Advanced Learning at 4th level lets you select any 1st-2nd level Necromancy spell to add to your spell list. Animate Dead is a 1st level spell for the Death Master class from the Dragon Compendium splatbook.

Otherwise, yeah Dread Necromancers wait until 8th. However Command Undead is a 2nd level spell and is really nice when applicable.

[TheBrassDuke]

Based upon your party composition I would suggest a Dread Necromancer (Cleric might be too strong and not necromancy enough). They can amass just as many (actually more) skeleton archers than a Cleric and don't have to go domain & deity shopping to get all 3 control pools.

Dread Necromancers are also Cha based which usually does not affect your minonmancy. However contested control often uses opposed Cha checks.

Wouldn't a Cleric make a really good Necromancer?

[OldTrees1]

Wouldn't a Cleric make a really good Necromancer?

Not really.
1) Actually being good aligned as a Cleric would lose 2 of the 3 command pools and have an even harder time to get the 3rd.
2) Most of the Cleric's strength is in not being a Necromancer.

So a Cleric would make a good Priest or a good Priest that can cast Resurrection, but would make a poor Necromancer.

[NecroDancer]

Well, for a cost you can get animate dead earlier. Advanced Learning at 4th level lets you select any 1st-2nd level Necromancy spell to add to your spell list. Animate Dead is a 1st level spell for the Death Master class from the Dragon Compendium splatbook.

I did not know this trick.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Horned Harbinger is a fun two-level dip, if you can get the entry requirement (you have to touch an artifact). It adds your charisma modifier to your caster level for animate dead, and provides that spell as SLA (at a solid caster level), bypassing the material component. Dread necromancer 5/Horned Harbinger 2 gets a caster level of 7 + CHA, or even 9 + CHA with Practiced Spellcaster. A more black knight-style Paladin of tyranny 2/DN 3/HH 2 gets the same CL 9 + CHA with Practiced Spellcaster. You wouldn't be much of a full caster, but there'd be plenty of skeletons under your command.

[ATHATH]

I recommend DN. I actually did some research for a DN a while back; lemme see if I can find my notes.

[ATHATH]

Here's a link to them: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=159596.240

Scroll down until you reach "ATHATH's optimization log". I made a few more entries; you should read all of them.

[TheBrassDuke]

Not really.
1) Actually being good aligned as a Cleric would lose 2 of the 3 command pools and have an even harder time to get the 3rd.
2) Most of the Cleric's strength is in not being a Necromancer.

So a Cleric would make a good Priest or a good Priest that can cast Resurrection, but would make a poor Necromancer.

Haha, I'm sorry, I didn't actually mean a [Good] Cleric; when I said 'good', I meant...'pretty darn decent'.

[ATHATH]

Oh, one thing that I don't think that the log mentions: a one-level dip into Paragnostic Apostle gives you two rebuking/turning levels (dunno how that'll translate to PF, but hey, it's there).

[OldTrees1]

Haha, I'm sorry, I didn't actually mean a [Good] Cleric; when I said 'good', I meant...'pretty darn decent'.

I wasn't sure so the first point was for [Good] and the second was for Strong. A Cleric is stronger than a Dread Necromancer, but the vast majority of their strength is in areas other than being a Necromancer. Hence they make a strong priest but a poor necromancer(relative to DN).

This is most apparent in a Necromancer vs Necromancer duel. Each come with a small army of minor (animate dead) and moderate undead(rebuke undead).
1) They start off by casting Chain Command Undead at the other army. One Cha contest later the Charisma based Necromancer is at an advantage.
2) As the fight progresses the moderate undead(rebuke undead) start to show their value. The Charisma based Necromancer can contest for control on more of those undead and, like before, will win more of those contests.
3) Necromancers rarely duel alone. They also bring their allies. Charisma based Necromancers have an edge when it comes to Leadership.

Clerics are still stronger, but at Necromancy they are weaker than a Dread Necromancer.

Although weaker than the best is not too bad. Clerics are still decent at necromancy.

[gorfnab]

These handbooks may be of some use:
Revised Necromancer Handbook (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2733)
Dread Necromancer Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?214212-Reanimated-Dread-Necromancer-Handbook)

[TheBrassDuke]

I wasn't sure so the first point was for [Good] and the second was for Strong. A Cleric is stronger than a Dread Necromancer, but the vast majority of their strength is in areas other than being a Necromancer. Hence they make a strong priest but a poor necromancer(relative to DN).

This is most apparent in a Necromancer vs Necromancer duel. Each come with a small army of minor (animate dead) and moderate undead(rebuke undead).
1) They start off by casting Chain Command Undead at the other army. One Cha contest later the Charisma based Necromancer is at an advantage.
2) As the fight progresses the moderate undead(rebuke undead) start to show their value. The Charisma based Necromancer can contest for control on more of those undead and, like before, will win more of those contests.
3) Necromancers rarely duel alone. They also bring their allies. Charisma based Necromancers have an edge when it comes to Leadership.

Clerics are still stronger, but at Necromancy they are weaker than a Dread Necromancer.

Although weaker than the best is not too bad. Clerics are still decent at necromancy.

Thank you very much for the clarification!

[Silva Stormrage]

I wasn't sure so the first point was for [Good] and the second was for Strong. A Cleric is stronger than a Dread Necromancer, but the vast majority of their strength is in areas other than being a Necromancer. Hence they make a strong priest but a poor necromancer(relative to DN).

This is most apparent in a Necromancer vs Necromancer duel. Each come with a small army of minor (animate dead) and moderate undead(rebuke undead).
1) They start off by casting Chain Command Undead at the other army. One Cha contest later the Charisma based Necromancer is at an advantage.
2) As the fight progresses the moderate undead(rebuke undead) start to show their value. The Charisma based Necromancer can contest for control on more of those undead and, like before, will win more of those contests.
3) Necromancers rarely duel alone. They also bring their allies. Charisma based Necromancers have an edge when it comes to Leadership.

Clerics are still stronger, but at Necromancy they are weaker than a Dread Necromancer.

Although weaker than the best is not too bad. Clerics are still decent at necromancy.

While I don't disagree with you in principle a cleric necromancer is actually still probably about on par with Dread Necromancers due to buffs. They can get command undead via divine magician ACF. Rebuke undead is 90% item based and the actual charisma check is near useless as once you can command undead you pretty much can't fail. Less attempts per day but you usually don't need that many attempts, usually it's a downtime action.

Command undead doesn't offer a charisma check. That's ONLY for intelligent undead, for unintelligent it just overrides the previous command undead and you lose a decent portion of your army (Can't have multiple versions of he same spell on a target at once). It's on the weaknesses of that spell.

See this section on stacking effects for source on that the multiple charm/dominate/mental effect spells doesn't apply since they are identical spells:
"Same Effect More than Once in Different Strengths
In cases when two or more identical spells are operating in the same area or on the same target, but at different strengths, only the best one applies."

Clerics often have pumped CL when focusing on buffs and have an easier way of getting it that way with items such as prayer beads.

Leadership is ridiculous on any character, you shouldn't use leadership as a feat in talking comparisons between classes. It rarely gets allowed in games.

DN's advantage's in necromancy:
Low level advantage in healing (Charnel Touch) gets overshadowed by Clerics at 5th (They get black sand which grants 1d4 healing per round permanently to all their undead. Yes DN's can get it with advanced learning but then they just spend effort to be equal to the cleric)

Undead Mastery: At 8th gets stupidly high caps of mindless undead. Of course this is mostly unimportant as chain command undead gives you pretty much infinite. However, this pool can't be dispelled so that's a plus.

Cleric's Advantages: Can animate earlier (5th vs 8th) DN's can get it at 4th by Death master's spell list (Animate Dead is 2nd not 1st) so this is mostly not relevant.

Can BUFF their undead, righteous wrath, recitation. Clerics have a lot more ways to make their undead incredibly valuable and they can afford to pump CL and buffs to prevent dispelling (Important for chain command undead). This is the main advantage of cleric necromancers. They can also access chain spell easier than DN's with DMM (DN's need to spend more feats to qualify)

Really the classes are pretty close, I would suggest going DN but I just wanted to throw my 2 cents there.

[OldTrees1]

DN's advantage's in necromancy:
Low level advantage in healing (Charnel Touch) gets overshadowed by Clerics at 5th (They get black sand which grants 1d4 healing per round permanently to all their undead. Yes DN's can get it with advanced learning but then they just spend effort to be equal to the cleric)

Undead Mastery: At 8th gets stupidly high caps of mindless undead. Of course this is mostly unimportant as chain command undead gives you pretty much infinite. However, this pool can't be dispelled so that's a plus.

Cleric's Advantages: Can animate earlier (5th vs 8th) DN's can get it at 4th by Death master's spell list (Animate Dead is 2nd not 1st) so this is mostly not relevant.

Can BUFF their undead, righteous wrath, recitation. Clerics have a lot more ways to make their undead incredibly valuable and they can afford to pump CL and buffs to prevent dispelling (Important for chain command undead). This is the main advantage of cleric necromancers. They can also access chain spell easier than DN's with DMM (DN's need to spend more feats to qualify)

Really the classes are pretty close, I would suggest going DN but I just wanted to throw my 2 cents there.

You have a strong point here. Clerics are stronger buffers than Dread Necromancers.


While I don't disagree with you in principle a cleric necromancer is actually still probably about on par with Dread Necromancers due to buffs. They can get command undead via divine magician ACF. Rebuke undead is 90% item based and the actual charisma check is near useless as once you can command undead you pretty much can't fail. Less attempts per day but you usually don't need that many attempts, usually it's a downtime action.

Command undead doesn't offer a charisma check. That's ONLY for intelligent undead, for unintelligent it just overrides the previous command undead and you lose a decent portion of your army (Can't have multiple versions of he same spell on a target at once). It's on the weaknesses of that spell.
The Charisma checks mentioned were necromancer vs necromancer, not necromancer vs undead. We mention opposed positions on this in the next section.


See this section on stacking effects for source on that the multiple charm/dominate/mental effect spells doesn't apply since they are identical spells:
"Same Effect More than Once in Different Strengths
In cases when two or more identical spells are operating in the same area or on the same target, but at different strengths, only the best one applies."

Clerics often have pumped CL when focusing on buffs and have an easier way of getting it that way with items such as prayer beads.

Same section, different quote

Stacking Effects

Multiple Mental Control Effects
Sometimes magical effects that establish mental control render each other irrelevant, such as a spell that removes the subjects ability to act. Mental controls that don’t remove the recipient’s ability to act usually do not interfere with each other. If a creature is under the mental control of two or more creatures, it tends to obey each to the best of its ability, and to the extent of the control each effect allows. If the controlled creature receives conflicting orders simultaneously, the competing controllers must make opposed Charisma checks to determine which one the creature obeys.

Since specific trumps general, I go to this section for multiple mental control effects.


Leadership is ridiculous on any character, you shouldn't use leadership as a feat in talking comparisons between classes. It rarely gets allowed in games.

I also was discussing Chain Command Undead(strong) and Animate Dead(weak). I believe covering the broad optimization range is a reasonable approach.

[Silva Stormrage]

You have a strong point here. Clerics are stronger buffers than Dread Necromancers.


The Charisma checks mentioned were necromancer vs necromancer, not necromancer vs undead. We mention opposed positions on this in the next section.



Same section, different quote


Since specific trumps general, I go to this section for multiple mental control effects.



I also was discussing Chain Command Undead(strong) and Animate Dead(weak). I believe covering the broad optimization range is a reasonable approach.


Whoops, I realized you were talking about the Cha check vs mental control and not rebuke checks midway through writing that post and had to go back and change my wording and I guess I didn't edit that part too.

And fair on leadership.

For the specific vs general I don't quite think thats how that applies but I think at this point its an "Ask your DM thing". Still you make valid points I would add the cha based is in minor favor of DN's (Clerics usually have good cha's but not as much as DN's who can easily have a +4 higher mod than a cleric) if the DM rules that command undead interaction works like that.

[OldTrees1]

Whoops, I realized you were talking about the Cha check vs mental control and not rebuke checks midway through writing that post and had to go back and change my wording and I guess I didn't edit that part too.

And fair on leadership.

For the specific vs general I don't quite think thats how that applies but I think at this point its an "Ask your DM thing". Still you make valid points I would add the cha based is in minor favor of DN's (Clerics usually have good cha's but not as much as DN's who can easily have a +4 higher mod than a cleric) if the DM rules that command undead interaction works like that.

Your point on cleric buffs (which probably uses their DMM Chain spell) is quite significant. What are some more good 1st-2nd level spells to cast on minor undead(animate dead stuff) and 3rd-4th level spells to cast on moderate undead(rebuke undead materal)? Spell levels selected based on when I felt the material might merit the buff.

[Silva Stormrage]

Your point on cleric buffs (which probably uses their DMM Chain spell) is quite significant. What are some more good 1st-2nd level spells to cast on minor undead(animate dead stuff) and 3rd-4th level spells to cast on moderate undead(rebuke undead material)? Spell levels selected based on when I felt the material might merit the buff.

I like recitation and righteous wrath of the faithful as both are persistable with DMM.

For chain spell: Greater Magic Weapon, Magic Vestment, Shield of Faith, Air Walk are some decent ones from core.

The Investiture Spells (In particular Investiture of the Erinyes) can be brutal chained. Unfortunately they are Target: (Living Creature) only. If you can get your DM to research a custom version or I believe their is a spell that lets you treat undead as living creatures temporarily.

But those spells often give each undead an ability and some can be quite brutal (Erinyes gives each target effectively a save or die).

A lot of good cleric buff spells are already massed though so chain is useful for debuffs too (Which is a roundabout way of buffing your undead). A Chained dispel magic is hilarious if you target your enemies' magic items.