How quickly do you need a maxed stat as a death cleric or other gish Cleric?

[Giegue]

As the title asks? Using the Death Cleric as an example, if your going for a dex-based gish build, how quickly do you need a 20 in either Dex or Wis? Would you be ok, for example, if you took a race that only boosted one of those stats and used your first two ability score boosts to get an 18 in one of those stats and then boost the other to 16 (and possibly boost Con if at 13 due to the standard array), getting your first "maxed" stat at 12th level (BTW, this game will 100% see 12th level since I'm joining the group at around 9th level)? If so, which should I "focus" on first, wis or dex?

Any thoughts/clarity on this would be appreciated!

[solidork]

My half orc level 8 strength based War Cleric has 16 Str, 16 Con, 16 Wis and he does fine.
My ability score increases were +1 to Wis and Con at level 4 and then Resilient: Con at level 8.

[Giegue]

How is he at casting spells with attack rolls or save DCs, may I ask? Part of the Death Domain's thing is that it boosts both melee and offensive casting, unlike war which can completely ignore spells with attack rolls or DCs. Are his DCs/Spell attacks hitting ok?

[Galadhrim]

For my level 9 tempest cleric I pushed wisdom to max and left strength at 16. I found it way more frustrating for a spell that cost me a slot to miss than an attack that didn't, not to mention your bonus attack is based on wisdom anyway (spiritual weapon).

[Bugado25]

A 16 in your main stat will be enough for most of the campaign. Boosting it to 18 only at 12th will be fine. And having 18 is completely fine even as a 20th level character. You're only behind in 1 point in attack and saves. Is not that much of a trouble.

That said, Wisdow is always more important than any other stat for a cleric. You're a full caster, even if you mainly attacks with your weapon most of your power will come from spells.

If you intend to be melee I highly suggests you to find a way to get access to one of the SCAG cantrips (Booming Blade and Green Flame Blade). The damage boost they gives stacks with the one given by Divine Strike and you only have 1 attack anyway. You will be doing a pretty respectable damage with then.

[JellyPooga]

A 16 in your main stat will be enough for most of the campaign. Boosting it to 18 only at 12th will be fine. And having 18 is completely fine even as a 20th level character. You're only behind in 1 point in attack and saves. Is not that much of a trouble.

Pretty much this.

I contend that even having a "mere" 16 in your primary stat is sufficient for your entire career. At level 20 the difference between +9 (for Wis:16) and +11 (for Wis:20) is...fairly insignificant compared to the incredible swing on that d20. If we were rolling 3d6 or 2d10 as the RNG, I'd be more inclined to say "take the stat bump" because bell-curves really like static modifiers, but the linear d20...that thing doesn't really give a monkeys.

Take Feats if they're an option. If not, bump Con instead. Everyone likes more Con.

[EvilAnagram]

My eighth level Tempest Cleric had 16s in Str, Con, and Wis, taking two feats along the way. He did a great job.

[jaappleton]

My eighth level Tempest Cleric had 16s in Str, Con, and Wis, taking two feats along the way. He did a great job.

EA,

I trust your knowledge of the game. I've read your guides, you know what you're doing.

I have to inquire, do you think that your Cleric was that effective despite having 16 across the board in part because of its domain? I ask in the sense of the Tempest's unique Channel Divinity, which can ensure decent damage of spells even on successful saving throws.

[solidork]

How is he at casting spells with attack rolls or save DCs, may I ask? Part of the Death Domain's thing is that it boosts both melee and offensive casting, unlike war which can completely ignore spells with attack rolls or DCs. Are his DCs/Spell attacks hitting ok?

I make extensive use of Sacred Weapon, Blindness/Deafness, Spirit Guardians, Banishment and a fair amount of Sacred Flames and do just fine. My party affectionately refers to Spirit Guardians as "the blender" after it completely dominated the fight where I was introduced to them.

[Theodoxus]

I play my level 8 Life Cleric as a gish. I went High Elf, grabbing Booming Blade, and maxed my Dex as quickly as possible. My Wis started at 16, and only now at 8th have I boosted it. I'm finding the higher level play is more spell intensive, though Divine Strike combined with Dawnbringer (intelligent sun blade in OotA) keeps my melee on par. With BB, that's 3d8+5 radiant damage... with another 1d8+4 for Spiritual Weapon. Against fiends (common) and undead (only one fight so far, and I destroyed them with Channel anyway), it's truly devastating - though I contend it's a very niche aligning of all good things.

I guess my takeaway is, melee is definitely good at lower levels - but as you're starting at 9th, and will be relying a lot more on spells to do the heavy lifting, I'd prioritize Wis over Dex. Starting at 1st or even 4th? If you enjoy going toe to toe, I'd go the other way... but I think, if you could play twins one going Dex, the other Wis - you'd enjoy the Wis build more...

[jaappleton]

I play my level 8 Life Cleric as a gish. I went High Elf, grabbing Booming Blade, and maxed my Dex as quickly as possible. My Wis started at 16, and only now at 8th have I boosted it. I'm finding the higher level play is more spell intensive, though Divine Strike combined with Dawnbringer (intelligent sun blade in OotA) keeps my melee on par. With BB, that's 3d8+5 radiant damage... with another 1d8+4 for Spiritual Weapon. Against fiends (common) and undead (only one fight so far, and I destroyed them with Channel anyway), it's truly devastating - though I contend it's a very niche aligning of all good things.

I guess my takeaway is, melee is definitely good at lower levels - but as you're starting at 9th, and will be relying a lot more on spells to do the heavy lifting, I'd prioritize Wis over Dex. Starting at 1st or even 4th? If you enjoy going toe to toe, I'd go the other way... but I think, if you could play twins one going Dex, the other Wis - you'd enjoy the Wis build more...

Right, but at 9th level, you're talking 5th level spells. They're often complete game changers, capable of outright eliminating enemies from a battle. Using Wall of Force to create a hemispherical dome over an enemy or two to prevent them from doing ANYTHING until you say so? Not bad at all. Now, Clerics don't get that spell, but you get the point. So melee damage tapering off on a full caster character... That's to be expected, isn't it?

[EvilAnagram]

EA,

I trust your knowledge of the game. I've read your guides, you know what you're doing.

I have to inquire, do you think that your Cleric was that effective despite having 16 across the board in part because of its domain? I ask in the sense of the Tempest's unique Channel Divinity, which can ensure decent damage of spells even on successful saving throws.

It's likely that the Channel Divinity played a part in that, but the hard limit on uses of CD meant that it played a smaller role than you might think, and I typically saved it for when I would get the highest possible boost out of its damage.

[Specter]

It depends on how much you cast. Simple as that. Ok, not so simple: which spells do you see as absolute musts for your cleric? Do they rely on WIS?

Banishment, which was my favorite cleric spell, was a save spell, so I made sure to pump WIS up. But if I were focused on buffing and healing (for which the +1 is irrelevant), then maybe not.

[Deleted]

From personal experience (and seeing all the math over the years)... This is what you can get away with, without it becoming an issue.

Main Attacking Stat

Levels 1 - 4: 14+
Levels 4 - 10: 16+
Levels 11 - 20: 18+

Bigger isn't always better, it depends on what you are giving up to gain that +1s. Not all +1s are worth the same.

At medium to higher levels , creatures have ways around saves and they are able to mitigate damage a lot easier.

However, because of how D&D works, a DM shouldadjust to the players and not just TPK them over and over.

[Sigreid]

However, because of how D&D works, a DM shouldadjust to the players and not just TPK them over and over.

I run sandbox so instead of doing this, I expect my players to recognize when it's time to bail instead of starting/finishing a fight.

[Deleted]

I run sandbox so instead of doing this, I expect my players to recognize when it's time to bail instead of starting/finishing a fight.

I run sandbox too, but I'm not making every encounter impossible.

Yeah, sometimes they may need to run, but if they are running all the time (been there a few times), it's your job as a DM to adjust what you do so that the game isn't so "rocks fall, you die".

[Sigreid]

I run sandbox too, but I'm not making every encounter impossible.

Yeah, sometimes they may need to run, but if they are running all the time (been there a few times), it's your job as a DM to adjust what you do so that the game isn't so "rocks fall, you die".

Oh, no, they don't run most of the time. They figure out how to use their abilities and approach the fight. When I do toss out hooks, some hooks are good to follow now. Others are clearly meant to be a later thing though. Like when the 5th level party discovered a castle where powerful devils were clearly being given access to the world.

[Deleted]

Oh, no, they don't run most of the time. They figure out how to use their abilities and approach the fight. When I do toss out hooks, some hooks are good to follow now. Others are clearly meant to be a later thing though. Like when the 5th level party discovered a castle where powerful devils were clearly being given access to the world.

See, I would't see that as a time to run at 5th level.

Approach with caution and try to think of a solution because this is something that needs to be taken care of. Maybe I'm a messenger that needs to get back to (whatever kingdom) and tell someone about this castle, maybe I need to be the unlikely hero, or maybe I'm playing a Warlock and I might be cool with these devils... Kinda just depends on the situation :p

If the players want to explore a certain avenue, I won't stop them, level may change my plot a bit but it will never stop the game from progressing.


Unless they are just being stupid by finishing the summoning of Tiamat... Then they get ate.

[Sigreid]

See, I would't see that as a time to run at 5th level.

Approach with caution and try to think of a solution because this is something that needs to be taken care of. Maybe I'm a messenger that needs to get back to (whatever kingdom) and tell someone about this castle, maybe I need to be the unlikely hero, or maybe I'm playing a Warlock and I might be cool with these devils... Kinda just depends on the situation :p

If the players want to explore a certain avenue, I won't stop them, level may change my plot a bit but it will never stop the game from progressing.


Unless they are just being stupid by finishing the summoning of Tiamat... Then they get ate.

They were already following another hook and decided to check out rumors of an ancient castle in a village they were just passing through. They fought a devil, and quickly determined that this was out of their league. While they didn't decide to find someone else to deal with it, it is hundreds of miles from their home and there was another threat they turned their attention to instead.

While heroes of their home town, I wouldn't exactly classify them as the good guys. It's not terribly surprising that they simply decided it was none of their business for right now.

[Deleted]

They were already following another hook and decided to check out rumors of an ancient castle in a village they were just passing through. They fought a devil, and quickly determined that this was out of their league. While they didn't decide to find someone else to deal with it, it is hundreds of miles from their home and there was another threat they turned their attention to instead.

While heroes of their home town, I wouldn't exactly classify them as the good guys. It's not terribly surprising that they simply decided it was none of their business for right now.

If I had a nickle for every time this has happened...


This should actually be its own background.

"Not Exactly Good Folk Hero"

[Sigreid]

If I had a nickle for every time this has happened...


This should actually be its own background.

"Not Exactly Good Folk Hero"

Of course it's common. Even the evil gnome with no interest in saving others doesn't want his home trashed. And beside by putting on a virtuous face there, he has a place he's well regarded that he can go, unwind etc.

[Theodoxus]

Right, but at 9th level, you're talking 5th level spells. They're often complete game changers, capable of outright eliminating enemies from a battle. Using Wall of Force to create a hemispherical dome over an enemy or two to prevent them from doing ANYTHING until you say so? Not bad at all. Now, Clerics don't get that spell, but you get the point. So melee damage tapering off on a full caster character... That's to be expected, isn't it?

Sure, but the OP was asking specifically about gish. Now, I don't know how much or how long they plan to stay gish - but with the proliferation of "martial" casters in UA, it must be a pretty common playstyle.

Clerics, especially any domain that grants Divine Strike, make very capable gishes - probably moreso than their arcane brothers, simply because there's more buffs available to clerics that boost the style than others.

Someday, I want to play a Life Cleric 8/Paladin 12 - gaining both Divine Strike and Improved Smite on every attack... A true frontliner tank that can lay decent smack with a lot of radiant damage. Not the most optimal, sure, but that's a lot of nova potential and concept works in just about any configuration while leveling, depending on what the party needs.

[Deleted]

Sure, but the OP was asking specifically about gish. Now, I don't know how much or how long they plan to stay gish - but with the proliferation of "martial" casters in UA, it must be a pretty common playstyle.

Clerics, especially any domain that grants Divine Strike, make very capable gishes - probably moreso than their arcane brothers, simply because there's more buffs available to clerics that boost the style than others.

Someday, I want to play a Life Cleric 8/Paladin 12 - gaining both Divine Strike and Improved Smite on every attack... A true frontliner tank that can lay decent smack with a lot of radiant damage. Not the most optimal, sure, but that's a lot of nova potential and concept works in just about any configuration while leveling, depending on what the party needs.

One day we will get a PHB that is all gish and casters...

Swordmage, Arcane Trickster, Cleric, Wizard

Then subclasses can take away the magic... Like... "You have forgone learning blademagic (Swordmage) in order to focus on the more mundane aspects of combat"

Lol