Does the lich tempate at lv 20 dread necromancer carry an LA?

[ErebusVonMori]

Just checking as it seems very odd that a class feature would also force an LA on the player

[Cosi]

It does. You gain the Lich template, which includes +4 LA. That said, it isn't very important, because it happens at 20th level at which point the campaign is likely already over. If you expect to go into epic levels, just take a level of any PrC (Pale Master or Rainbow Servant are probably best) before 20th. This will cause you to become a Lich at 21st level, when you have 9th level spells and can take Epic Spellcasting so you don't need anything further from leveling.

[Malimar]

The funny thing about Lich Transformation is that it doesn't actually say it gives you the Lich template.

Lich Transformation: When a dread necromancer attains 20th level, she undergoes a hideous transformation and becomes a lich. Her type changes to undead, and she gains all the traits of the undead (see page 317 of the Monster Manual). She no longer has a Constitution score, all her existing Hit Dice become d12s, and she must reroll her hit points. A dread necromancer need not pay experience points or gold to create her phylactery.

A dread necromancer who is not humanoid does not gain this class feature.
There's two way to treat this:
The more reasonable way (I think) is to treat "becomes a lich" as "gains the lich template", making the entire rest of that paragraph redundant, and you get the other stuff the lich template gives you, too. But if you gain the lich template, you gain everything the lich template gives you, including LA.
The other way is you gain only what the Lich Transformation class feature lists, and not any of the other stuff the lich template would give you.
There are some DMs who house rule that you gain the lich template without the LA, but that's a house rule and not strictly compatible with either reading of RAW.

[Cosi]

The reading where "becomes a lich" means anything other than "acquires the lich template" always struck me as pretty stupid. There is no ambiguity in the game about the word "lich", so the idea that it means anything other than the MM template is unlikely at best.

[hamishspence]

It seems to me like a undead-themed, class version of the Dragon Disciple PRC - which ends by gaining the half-dragon template. But because the abilities of the half-dragon had been doled out over time, through the PRC, Dragon Disciples didn't have an LA increase as I recall.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/dragonDisciple.htm

[ErebusVonMori]

Thing is the class also gives you lots of lich abilities over the progression so it is really harsh that you get that huge LA in epic games as all you're really getting is the phylactery, a mildly stronger natural attack, +50% more crit immune and a mildly better DR than you already got, losing four levels just four that seems almost ludicrous.

[Malimar]

It seems to me like a undead-themed, class version of the Dragon Disciple PRC - which ends by gaining the half-dragon template. But because the abilities of the half-dragon had been doled out over time, through the PRC, Dragon Disciples didn't have an LA increase as I recall.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/dragonDisciple.htm

Dragon Disciple doesn't say it doesn't apply LA, so by RAW it does. Again, houseruling the LA away is completely reasonable (especially in the light that, between the other class features and what's listed in the Dragon Apotheosis class feature, everything the half-dragon template gives you is accounted for but LA is left out, so one might assume that the omission of LA was deliberate on the part of the designers).

Walker in the Wastes (Sandstorm) is another along the same lines: gives the Dry Lich template and doesn't say it doesn't give you the LA so it does.

[Zanos]

As rare as it is I actually agree with Cosi. Lich is a well-defined game term, and a Lich is a creature with the Lich template, and a Lich has +4 LA.

I suppose you could make a somewhat poor argument that "Lich" could refer to one of the other Lich templates.

All of that said though I would actually make an exception here and give the player a pass on the LA. Getting to level 20 as a straight classed dread necromancer is a major commitment, and the Lich template is pretty terrible.

[ErebusVonMori]

It's more the fact that most of what you've gained from the template is already built into the class, unless touch attack effects and DR of the same type stack and I didn't know it?

[Cosi]

Thing is the class also gives you lots of lich abilities over the progression so it is really harsh that you get that huge LA in epic games as all you're really getting is the phylactery, a mildly stronger natural attack, +50% more crit immune and a mildly better DR than you already got, losing four levels just four that seems almost ludicrous.

I mean, yeah, it's kind of stupid, but 99% of the power there is to get in Epic games comes from abusing the crap out of Epic Spellcasting, so you just dip into something cool or take a PrC at any point before 21st and your LA only kicks in after you have real ultimate power.

I probably wouldn't make you eat the LA, but it's hard for me to imagine a situation where it matters very much.

[Zanos]

It's more the fact that most of what you've gained from the template is already built into the class, unless touch attack effects and DR of the same type stack and I didn't know it?
All the abilities from the lich template are pretty irrelevant in the double digit levels.

[ErebusVonMori]

Alas the game I'm asking this for the DM disallowed prestige classes otherwise I'd have dipped heavily. Am I correct that if it gives '+1 for existing arcane class' that essentially counts as a level of the class with the features of the prestige level instead of the normal cass?

[Remuko]

Any prestige class that gives you a template or pseudo template at the end is RAI (imo) not supposed to give you LA. You paid the cost of the template by taking the levels in that specific class. I understand and respect the RAW love on this site (I use RAW a lot myself) but to me, this is clearly a rules dysfunction (especially in the case of Dragon Disciple, who by RAW loses everything they gained in the class if they become a dragon at the end, whoops?).

[Alcore]

The rule lawyer in me says "if it isn't mentioned it didn't happen". They did not say to apply the template but you already are the thing with the template by reaching said level. The evidence to cement such in my casefile I'd the dragon disciple.

The kinder part of me says "you've paid for it". What have you gained? A above par lich with cool abilities. What have you lost? 16 levels in any other caster.

By RAW? No information. It's a hole that forces interpretation.

[TheBrassDuke]

Id say the N/PC paid for the LA by taking the full class, to be honest. At least that's how I'd play it.

[Mr Adventurer]

If you shapechange into a creature, do you gain that creature's LA?

[Zanos]

If you shapechange into a creature, do you gain that creature's LA?
Not sure how that's relevant. Shapechange has a very rigidly defined list of what you do and do not get from a creatures form.

[Doctor Awkward]

According to an old CustServ ruling, no, because you do not actually gain the lich template. You only gain explicitly what the Heroes of Horror book says you gain.

However it's often been argued in the past that the only reason CustServ ruled that way was because they thought giving the lich template free of cost, even as a class level 20 capstone ability, would be overpowered, and that CustServ in general has never really had a good grasp of what exactly in D&D 3.5 counts as "overpowered".

Whether or not you should be given the level adjustment really depends on what is acceptable at your table. If you routinely game with high optimization, then you can probably just hand out the template and not bother with assigning the LA.

[Zanos]

CustServ has also contradicted undisputed black and white RAW in the past and really shouldn't be considered any sort of authority on the rules anyway.

[Doctor Awkward]

CustServ has also contradicted undisputed black and white RAW in the past and really shouldn't be considered any sort of authority on the rules anyway.

CustServ was also a group of people who frequently corresponded directly with the designers as to what the intent on rules actually was. Using inconsistencies in their judgements as grounds for ignoring all of their advice is disingenuous at best.

[Remuko]

CustServ was also a group of people who frequently corresponded directly with the designers as to what the intent on rules actually was. Using inconsistencies in their judgements as grounds for ignoring all of their advice is disingenuous at best.

Have to agree with this. Rules disfunctions in RAW causing contradictions doesnt mean we ignore all the rules in all the books, why should we hold what is basically "Word of God" any differently.

[Segev]

This is "judgment call" so deep in RAI that it may as well be a house rule, but if I were DMing for a Dread Necromancer who took all 20 levels, I'd give him the lich template (without letting any overlapping effects from the class up to that point stack) without the LA. That seems to me to be the intent, even if it isn't explicitly stated in the RAW.

[Zanos]

CustServ was also a group of people who frequently corresponded directly with the designers as to what the intent on rules actually was. Using inconsistencies in their judgements as grounds for ignoring all of their advice is disingenuous at best.
So listen to CustServ when you agree with it anyway?

In any case their ruling here is pretty ridiculous, it doesn't say "The Dread Necromancer is an undead typed creature", it's a Lich.

[Remuko]

So listen to CustServ when you agree with it anyway?

In any case their ruling here is pretty ridiculous, it doesn't say "The Dread Necromancer is an undead typed creature", it's a Lich.

Yeah but most classes like this specifically say "apply the X template" iirc. This one explicitly does not. It says you are a Lich, not a creature with the Lich template.

[Zanos]

A Lich is a creature with the Lich template.

[Cosi]

For what it's worth, "CustServ said this thing" seems like a pretty poor argument unless you can actually produce the place where CustServ said it, regardless of how you feel about CustServ on the whole. CustServ might be a good source. It might not. But "what this person on the internet kind of remembers CustServ saying this one time" is definitely a terrible source.

[Telonius]

For what it's worth, "CustServ said this thing" seems like a pretty poor argument unless you can actually produce the place where CustServ said it, regardless of how you feel about CustServ on the whole. CustServ might be a good source. It might not. But "what this person on the internet kind of remembers CustServ saying this one time" is definitely a terrible source.

The FAQ is no longer available on the Wizards site. Fortunately there are a few places (and individuals) that have saved the FAQ file. Quoting it here (Version 3.5: Date Updated 6/30/08, page 31). This one's actually the source of more than one bit of rules weirdness, thanks to the Type Pyramid of Savage Species being referenced too.



One of my players plays a half-celestial sorcerer, and he wants to take the dragon disciple prestige class. What happens to his character’s creature type when he reaches the 10th level of dragon disciple? Is he still an outsider (from his template), is he a dragon, is he both, or is he something else? Should he gain a level adjustment from becoming a half-dragon?

A creature can have only one type (although some templates retain a creature’s original type as an “augmented” subtype). The dragon disciple prestige class has no limitations on the character’s type other than “can’t be dragon,” so it’s perfectly acceptable for a half-celestial character (or any other outsider who qualifies) to take levels in the class. At 10th level, the character’s type would normally change to dragon. According to page 143 of SS, the outsider type applied by the half-celestial template overrides the dragon type applied by the prestige class, so the character’s type would remain outsider. The character still gains all the class features of the dragon disciple prestige class though, so this is mostly just an issue of nomenclature.

A dragon disciple ignores the normal level adjustment applied from the half-dragon template; in effect, he’s already “paid” for the template through the 10 levels of his prestige class. This is true of any prestige class that applies a template or otherwise changes the character’s type or subtype.

[Zanos]

Pretty sure Cosi was referring to the CustServ ruling that specifically said Dread Necromancers didn't get the Lich template, just an Undead type and they had "lich like" class features.

[Telonius]

Ah, gotcha! I did find this on an older Giantitp thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-261038.html):


Lich Transformation: According to Wizards Custserv [Incident: 070501-000021], you do not gain the Lich template with this ability . You do gain the undead template and have lich like class abilities. Clarification is needed concerning the phylactery. RAW gives a useless phylactery but the class description implies that you would gain the phylactery ability. If you are already undead, there seems to be no reason to take this level as you only are gaining the 9th level spell and the ability to make a useless wonderous item for free.

Direct citation from CustServ (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872470/New_Dread_Necromancer_Handbook&post_num=339#338453594)

Unfortunately those links would now be dead, but it sounds like this is a pretty good summary of what was there.

[Doctor Awkward]

For what it's worth, "CustServ said this thing" seems like a pretty poor argument unless you can actually produce the place where CustServ said it, regardless of how you feel about CustServ on the whole. CustServ might be a good source. It might not. But "what this person on the internet kind of remembers CustServ saying this one time" is definitely a terrible source.

I remember it clearly because I was there to read it when it was first posted. Even if I still have the link saved anywhere it's dead now because Wizards took down their forums.

And I really don't feel the need to validate my claim in any way by digging through webarchive to try and turn it up, because I don't care about their ruling that much. In my opinion, granting the lich template for free isn't any more overpowered than any of the other dozens of ways players can get undead status.

You can easily dig up other forum threads from brilliant gameologist, En World, and Myth-Weavers that obliquely reference the ruling with a google search. So take my word for it. Or don't. Makes no difference to me.

[Psyren]

A Lich is a creature with the Lich template.

This. Just like if an ability refers to making a skeleton or vampire, you have to go to the template to find out what that means/what it can do.

Besides, once you hit level 20, it's not like having LA is some big barrier. Either you stop leveling so it ceases to matter, or the game is going epic and is broken anyway.

[Telok]

This. Just like if an ability refers to making a skeleton or vampire, you have to go to the template to find out what that means/what it can do.

Besides, once you hit level 20, it's not like having LA is some big barrier. Either you stop leveling so it ceases to matter, or the game is going epic and is broken anyway.

Well if the game goes into epic and th DN becomes an ECL 24 character at level 20 it's going to take bit longer to reach level 21 and the epic abilities than it takes everyone else.

[Psyren]

Well if the game goes into epic and th DN becomes an ECL 24 character at level 20 it's going to take bit longer to reach level 21 and the epic abilities than it takes everyone else.

If the game goes into epic then it's clearly not cheese-averse, so that can be circumvented. In the worst case scenario, I would do DN 19 / somethingelse 2, take my first epic feat, and then retrain into the lich capstone.

[Grim Reader]

Towards the end of 3.5s life there was a sort of "hotly debated rules" thread on WoTCs boards, where the community set up some hotly debated questions and the entire WOTC staff looked at the questions that emerged. One of the questions was LA from PrC-acquired templates. The answer was phased, as I remember, as a general rule that levels in the granting PrC overlapped with the LA, so no further LA was applied after completing the PrC.

Not all answers in that thread were sensible, as I remember, but this one was not the worst.

[Knitifine]

The obvious intent is that it does not add LA, much like how one would not be expected to tax dragon disciples for becoming a half dragon. That said if you're in a RAW/Munchkin oriented group they might enforce it in order to keep to their rule purity philosophy.

[Deophaun]

The obvious intent is that it does not add LA, much like how one would not be expected to tax dragon disciples for becoming a half dragon.
Except the obvious intent of dragon disciple was that you get the template, while the obvious intent of the dread necromancer is that you don't (because we have WotC flat out telling us the intent). So, in one you're getting the LA waved and in the other the LA has as much to do with you as the warblade's capstone does.

Now, you can go with RAI, in which case you definitely do not get to look at the lich template, or you can go with RAW, in which case maybe you get the template +LA, or maybe you are just undead as per CustServ (personally, I let the player choose), or you go with a house rule, where you can get template with waved LA.

[Bronk]

I would say that for the dread necromancer, it's both RAI and RAW that it doesn't get the lich template, nor the LA associated with it. I does say you get the undead type and all of the traits that come with it, but as for lichdom, it just says you become a lich with a free phylactery. It doesn't say you get the lich template, and there's more than one type of lich anyway. In this case, you're a dread necromancer kind of lich.

The CustServ snippet concerning the half-celestial taking ten levels in Dragon Disciple is interesting, but shows that it's a 3.0 ruling by referring to Savage Species rules no longer in effect in 3.5.

Dragon Disciple is weird anyway. It must be RAI that you wouldn't take the LA from the half dragon template at tenth level, because they expect you to gradually gain the meat of the template gradually over the course of the class. Otherwise, the way it's written, you would get all of the stat boosts twice! Once over ten levels, and then a second time when you slap the template on the character again at the end! All of these classes are poorly worded.

[Remuko]

I would say that for the dread necromancer, it's both RAI and RAW that it doesn't get the lich template, nor the LA associated with it. I does say you get the undead type and all of the traits that come with it, but as for lichdom, it just says you become a lich with a free phylactery. It doesn't say you get the lich template, and there's more than one type of lich anyway. In this case, you're a dread necromancer kind of lich.

The CustServ snippet concerning the half-celestial taking ten levels in Dragon Disciple is interesting, but shows that it's a 3.0 ruling by referring to Savage Species rules no longer in effect in 3.5.

Dragon Disciple is weird anyway. It must be RAI that you wouldn't take the LA from the half dragon template at tenth level, because they expect you to gradually gain the meat of the template gradually over the course of the class. Otherwise, the way it's written, you would get all of the stat boosts twice! Once over ten levels, and then a second time when you slap the template on the character again at the end! All of these classes are poorly worded.

As much as I agree with you but the RAW on DD at the end there creates a bigger problem than what you said. It makes you a dragon, which means you no longer qualify for DD and lose the abilities, making you not a dragon, so you qualify again and become one, then you don't ad infinitum.

[Zanos]

You don't need to meet the prerequisites for a PrC unless you're taking a level in it. CW text only applies to PrCs in CW.

[Telonius]

... and that is a whole other can of worms. The rules lawyers will be arguing it forever, Bleak House-style.

[Segev]

Personally, I think it's one of those Schroedinger's Rules that is best judged on not just a PrC-by-PrC basis, but on a character-case by character-case basis.

[Cosi]

... and that is a whole other can of worms. The rules lawyers will be arguing it forever, Bleak House-style.

Nah, the rules are pretty clear. DMG says that you need prerequisites to take the first level of a PrC. Insofar as it applies anywhere, it's only Complete Warrior classes. "First Level Only" is also way less dysfunctional than the alternative.

[Malimar]

Nah, the rules are pretty clear. DMG says that you need prerequisites to take the first level of a PrC. Insofar as it applies anywhere, it's only Complete Warrior classes. "First Level Only" is also way less dysfunctional than the alternative.

The rules being clear doesn't stop people on this forum from debating a question ad nauseam.

[Segev]

The rules being clear doesn't stop people on this forum from debating a question ad nauseam.

And even post nauseam.

[Malimar]

And even post nauseam.

Ad omnes vomuerint, even.