[Path of War] Getting the most out of the Bladecaster PrC?

[EisenKreutzer]

I've been looking at the Bladecaster PrC from Path of War and thinking about how to get the most bang for your buck out of it.

It seems like going multiclass sorcerer/an initiator class would be a good idea, but I thought maybe there were more unconventional ways of getting into the class that could work.

So I started looking at the Paladin, specifically the Knight Disciple archetype from PoW Expanded. With two levels of Knight Disciple Paladin you get charisma to saves, which is a very nice boost, plus you get the maneuvers and stance you need for Bladecaster.
Next comes the arcane caster component. Sorcerer is the obvious choice, being Charisma-based, but you lose a lot of BAB that way and you don't really get any melee support beyond some Bloodline feats. So I thought maybe Magus could work, but then you run into the problem of MADness, since the Magus casts off Int.
So, the Eldritch Scion Magus archetype then, which is Cha-based. But that has it's own problems, with the restrictions on Spell Combat and the Elritch Pool (which would not get advanced by the Bladecaster PrC).

Would a Knight Disciple Paladin 2, Eldritch Scion Magus 4, Bladecaster X build work? Is there a more obvious way of doing this that I am missing?

[Tuvarkz]

Tbh, it's indeed Magus with the Spellstrike/spell combat interactions with Bladecaster's Strike and Arcane Assault that make the PrC shine. Imo Harbinger is the one that fits best, particularly since it gives a permanent half-int bonus to attack rolls.
So, Magus 4/Harb 2/Bladecaster X is what seems most reasonable to me.

[EisenKreutzer]

I guess I got overly attached to the idea of getting as much benefit out of Charisma as possible.

How deep into Magus would you go for this build? Is it best to abandon Magus and just dive deep into Bladecaster, or is it more beneficial to take more Magus levels later on?

EDIT: Looking closely at the Bladecaster, it's obvious that it's the Battlecaster's Strike we are after. It complements the Magus' Spellstrike nicely, in effect letting us use spellstrike on maneuvers as well as regular melee attacks.
So 4 levels of Bladecaster is probably all that we are going to need. At that point, we are casting spells as a lvl 8 Magus.
So I'm thinking once we get to Magus 4/Harbinger 2/Bladecaster 4, it's time to focus on the Harbinger side of the character to improve our Dark Claim and get to the other good sides of the Harbinger class.

[Tuvarkz]

Full on Bladecaster, you want that Arcane Assault asap so you go: Initiate Spell combat w/Shocking Grasp>Use Arcane Assault to use a strike with the Shocking Grasp+weapon damage via spellstrike>Swift to Battlecaster's Strike another Shocking Grasp delivered through another maneuver+weapon damage>proceed with iteratives. It can get pretty crazy in damage output that way.

[EisenKreutzer]

Full on Bladecaster, you want that Arcane Assault asap so you go: Initiate Spell combat w/Shocking Grasp>Use Arcane Assault to use a strike with the Shocking Grasp+weapon damage via spellstrike>Swift to Battlecaster's Strike another Shocking Grasp delivered through another maneuver+weapon damage>proceed with iteratives. It can get pretty crazy in damage output that way.

Maneuver recovery becomes a problem with only 2 Harbinger levels, though. The Bladecaster's maneuver recovery relies on using spell slots of an appropriate level, and as an 8th level Magus (effectively) we only have a few slots to work with, most of which are going towards touch spells to actually cast.

[Tuvarkz]

Maneuver recovery becomes a problem with only 2 Harbinger levels, though. The Bladecaster's maneuver recovery relies on using spell slots of an appropriate level, and as an 8th level Magus (effectively) we only have a few slots to work with, most of which are going towards touch spells to actually cast.

Except that more Harbinger levels don't exactly improve the recovery either, and Bladecaster improves the number of maneuvers readied at the same pace. It's more than reasonable to burn a 9th level feat into either Grasp of Darkness or Victorious Recovery for better maneuver cycling.

[EisenKreutzer]

Except that more Harbinger levels don't exactly improve the recovery either, and Bladecaster improves the number of maneuvers readied at the same pace. It's more than reasonable to burn a 9th level feat into either Grasp of Darkness or Victorious Recovery for better maneuver cycling.

Good point, either of those two feats would work wonderfully. I'm thinking Grasp of Darkness is probably the wiser choice of the two.

Thanks for helping me make this build work!

EDIT: Looking it over, having only 2 Harbinger levels is actually beneficial for us, since the dark claim only lasts 1 round, meaning we can effectively spam dark claim to recover a maneuver each round (or two with Grasp of Darkness)!

EDIT the second: What disciplines and maneuvers would work well with this build?

[Elricaltovilla]

Discipline choice depends heavily on what your goal for the character is. Thematically, I like Elemental Flux, Riven Hourglass and Cursed Razor. Mystical disciplines seem to fit the flavor better.

[EisenKreutzer]

Discipline choice depends heavily on what your goal for the character is. Thematically, I like Elemental Flux, Riven Hourglass and Cursed Razor. Mystical disciplines seem to fit the flavor better.

I sat down and did some research, and came to the conclusion that scarlet throne, cursed razor and veiled moon offered the right amount of mobility, versatility and damage. Especially scarlet throne and veiled moon suit the Magus chassis very well.

[Elricaltovilla]

I sat down and did some research, and came to the conclusion that scarlet throne, cursed razor and veiled moon offered the right amount of mobility, versatility and damage. Especially scarlet throne and veiled moon suit the Magus chassis very well.

I think you picked a good trio.

Veiled Moon is fantastic and incredibly powerful when used creatively. You'll have a lot of fun with it. Cursed Razor hurts. It's full of nastiness in the best way. Scarlet throne will handle your damage and defense pretty darn well.

Don't be afraid to cherry pick additional maneuvers and stances from other disciplines. Carefully planning out your maneuver picks can give you access to a lot more variety than you might think at first.

[EisenKreutzer]

This is my first attempt at the build. I might have made many mistakes and sub-optimal choices, so tips and help would be appreciated.


Race is Human.

Lvl 1 Magus 1
Class Features: Arcane Pool, Spell Combat
Feats: Weapon Finesse, Improved Initiative
Spells known: Shocking Grasp, Color Spray, Shield

Lvl 2 Magus 1, Harbinger 1
Class Features: Accursed Will (attack rolls), dark claim, ill tidings
Maneuvers known: Woeful Burden (cr), Red Zephyr's Strike (st), Scything Strike (st), Disturbing Blow (vm)
Stances known: Scarlet Einhander

Lvl 3 Magus 2, Harbinger 1
Class Features: Spellstrike
Feat: Dervish Dance
Spells known: True Strike, Blade Lash

Lvl 4 Magus 2, Harbinger 2
Class Features: Dark focus (cursed razor)
Maneuvers known: Prince's Attitude
Stances known: Touch of the Witch

Lvl 5 Magus 3, Harbinger 2
Class features: Magus arcana: Lingering pain
Feat: Deadly Agility
Spells known: Grease, Snowball

Lvl 6 Magus 4, Harbinger 2
Class features: Spell recall
Spells known: Bladed Dash, Glitterdust

Lvl 7 Magus 4, Harbinger 2, Bladecaster 1
Feat: Extra Readied Maneuver
Class Features: Stance of arcane steel

Lvl 8: Magus 4, Harbinger 2, Bladecaster 2
Class features: Arcane steel
Spells known: Frigid touch, Mirror image
Maneuvers known: Fading Strike

Lvl 9 Magus 4, Harbinger 2, Bladecaster 3
Class features: Arcane Recovery
Feat: Grasp of Darkness
Spells known: Vampiric touch, Fly
Stances known: Aura of Shared Misery

Lvl 10 Magus 4, Harbinger 2, Bladecaster 4
Class feature: Battlecaster's Strike
Spells known: Haste, Slow
Maneuver known: Sorcerers Sidestep

Lvl 11 Magus 4, Harbinger 2, Bladecaster 5
Class feature: Arcane ruination
Feat: Lunging spell touch
Spells known: Displacement, Channel vigor

Lvl 12 Magus 4, Harbinger 2, Bladecaster 6
Spells known: Dimension door, Greater Invisibility
Maneuver known: Persecution

Lvl 13 Magus 4, Harbinger 2, Bladecaster 7
Class features: Martial counterspell
Feats: Advanced Study: Sanguine Perfection, Shadow Pin
Spells known: Caustic blood, Stoneskin

Lvl 14 Magus 4, Harbinger 2, Bladecaster 8
Spells known: Shield of Dawn, Flash forward
Maneuver known: Scarlet riposte
Stance known: Stance of the Ether gate

Lvl 15 Magus 4, Harbinger 2, Bladecaster 9
Class features: Improved Battlecasting
Feat: Extra readied Maneuver
Spells known: Corrosive consumption, Baleful polymorph

Lvl 16 Magus 4, Harbinger 2, Bladecaster 10
Class feature: Arcane Assault
Maneuver known: Ruby battle lords strike

I only went up to level 16, because thats when I take the final Bladecaster level, and most campaigns end at this point anyway.
As I said, opinions, tips and help is greatly appreciated!

[Castilonium]

You could try something like Wizard 5/Hell Knight Enforcer 3/Dervish Defender Warder 1/Hell Knight Enforcer 1/Blade Caster 10. It would give you BAB 16, CL19, IL17 at level 20. All iterative attacks, 9th level spells, and 9th level maneuvers!

Credit goes to Azoth (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20385507&postcount=120)

[Tuvarkz]

@EisenKreutzer: You're forgetting that with Practied Initiator you should have full initiator levels. As such, your initiator level doesn't drop at all from the Magus Dip. And on every even initiator level, harbinger lets you do a maneuver swap even during the PrC.

@Castilonium: That build doesn't work, particularly due to HKE requiring medium armor prof, not just light. Also, taking the Hellknight Obedience for Gate order would just work overall better, as at 16th it basically removes arcane spell failure, even if at the cost of not having full BAB-that last iterative will miss most of the time anyways.
Also, that's assuming the DM allows for leaving a PrC unfinished.

[EisenKreutzer]

@EisenKreutzer: You're forgetting that with Practied Initiator you should have full initiator levels. As such, your initiator level doesn't drop at all from the Magus Dip. And on every even initiator level, harbinger lets you do a maneuver swap even during the PrC.

Interesting. How would you squeeze that feat into the build?

[Elricaltovilla]

It's a trait, not a feat.

[EisenKreutzer]

It's a trait, not a feat.

Oh, I guess my hasty look on d20pfsrd missed that.
We don't play with Traits.

[EldritchWeaver]

Oh, I guess my hasty look on d20pfsrd missed that.
We don't play with Traits.

Is the Additional Traits feat disallowed, too?

[EisenKreutzer]

Is the Additional Traits feat disallowed, too?

I suppose building this with Traits isn't a problem, since it's mostly theorycrafting anyway.

[Elricaltovilla]

Traits have actually turned out to be one of the better things in Pathfinder. There's still a fair number of duds, but it's a useful little versatility boost for a lot of classes or characters since in most cases they add extra skills or consolidate ability scores in small but significant ways. They can also ease issues with multiclassing (such as with practiced initiator) or add a new twist on a character without having to multiclass.

[DaHighord]

Right now I'm playing a Magus/Zwiehander Sentinel with the intent to go Bladecaster so I have a couple questions:

- In your build I didnt see Combat Casting or Improved Counterspell as Feats which are required to get into Bladecaster. Did your DM hand wave them?

- I don't think Arcane Assault/Bladecaster Strike works that way. From my reading a Strike is a Standard Action so you can't throw it into a Full Attack in how your describing. A Full Attack with AA would be initiate Spell Combat and use Arcane Assault to throw a maneuver in with the spell and then do the rest of your attacks. Since Bladecaster Strike allows you to spellstrike with a maneuver but doesnt allow you to change the action it requires to activate it. So you can do AA or BS but not both in the same round.

[EisenKreutzer]

Right now I'm playing a Magus/Zwiehander Sentinel with the intent to go Bladecaster so I have a couple questions:

- In your build I didnt see Combat Casting or Improved Counterspell as Feats which are required to get into Bladecaster. Did your DM hand wave them?

- I don't think Arcane Assault/Bladecaster Strike works that way. From my reading a Strike is a Standard Action so you can't throw it into a Full Attack in how your describing. A Full Attack with AA would be initiate Spell Combat and use Arcane Assault to throw a maneuver in with the spell and then do the rest of your attacks. Since Bladecaster Strike allows you to spellstrike with a maneuver but doesnt allow you to change the action it requires to activate it. So you can do AA or BS but not both in the same round.

The missing feats were a simple oversight by me that has been corrected. I was indeed missing those two feats.

As for Arkane Assault and Bladecasters strike, I haven't explored their full potential yet, but I'm going to do a thorough reading of all relevant abilities before I play this character (which might happen next week over Roll20).