Cleric 21 vs cleric 11/radiant servant of Pelor 10

[dehro]

After a near TPK, I'm ready to build my new character.
The only surviving character is a human saint template paladin whose total level is 22.
I'm considering building either a 21th level cleric or throwing in the radiant servant of pelor prc... well, the faerunian equivalent..
Which is better when I want to primarily heal and tank?
Any suggestions on feats? Given that the paladin is dealing a fair amount of damage and tanking nicely in his own right, should I focus instead on dealing damage and/or debuffing(and how)?
I'm also open to taking the saint template myself as well.
We're a party of 7 and I only know that one other player will be making a straight up sorcerer.
We are strongly encouraged to avoid blatant optimisation and should limit ourselves to one base class and a PrC... or the minimum necessary base classes to reach a specific PrC, so suggestions in the vein of why don't you dip in these three other classes so that you can get punpun levels of cheese, won't work for me.
I'm really mostly interested in discussing these 2 options (plus the saint template).
For the sake of discussion, out accessible sources:
All classes from core, complete, boed, faerun specific books
Pretty much all races that make sense in faerun. I wouldn't mind paying an unusual one, provided it doesn't come at to high a cost.
Feats from every wotc source minus Dragon magazine
Spells from the compendium, the core books and boed.
Magic items from the compendium and core books.
We have a small number of points we can spend to buy any of the above from sources beyond the limitations (for instance a spell from another source, or a template, or an item from races of stone or some such... but is like to try and keep it basic.
Any opinion within the frame of the above will be more than welcome.
Yes, I am familiar with the handbooks. On average they tend to be geared towards optimisation and I'd still prefer your expert opinion.

[Gusmo]

Have you considered the healer class from the Miniatures Handbook? It's not a particularly powerful class, so it'll fit nicely in a game that doesn't care for optimization. Unless you were planning on doing stuff like divine metamagic, it's hard to beat the healer for its healing abilities, which at level 20 will include a free once a week true resurrection, and once a day greater restoration. You won't need to invest many resources (feats, etc.) into making its out of the box healing abilities better, so you can focus most of your resources on tanking with your mount. Edit: here's the corresponding handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=6849). Healers are considered tier 5 out of the box, but they've got plenty of potential. For what you want to do it sounds like a healer could be a good fit.

[Jack_Simth]

Biggest issue with the Radiant Servant of Pelor in Epic levels is that it doesn't come with an Epic progression, and at Epic levels, those class bonus feats are tasty. No, you won't be getting them for another two levels, but the possibility exists.

If your DM is willing to come up with one for you equivalent progression that gets you Epic bonus feats, then well; I'd suggest something like a Cleric-10/Radiant Serverant-11, no problems. Otherwise, I'd suggest something akin to a Cleric-10/Loremaster-11 or a Cleric-21. Because those Epic bonus feats are tasty.

[dehro]

Healer comes with some pretty big drawbacks, and the general feel of the character doesn't really fit with my idea also, the limitation in armour choice... so, no.
Homebrewing the feat progression is also not going to happen. My dm is very by the book.
It looks like I will just go with a straight up cleric, maybe with saint thrown in for the nice things it brings..
Any suggestions on what would be a good selection of feats, considering that we tend to be rather low on undead opponents? Dmm+ persist is, sadly, banned altogether.
Also, race: dwarf? Aasimar? Human? Any other worth considering?

[Gusmo]

If you want to be a little different, how about going raptoran turned dragonborn, from Races of the Wild and Races of the Dragon, respectively? Raptorans have cleric as a favored class, and a bunch of stuff specifically for Raptoran clerics within Races of the Wild. The sky domain has some good spells in it, increases your fly speed by 5' and adds spot to your class skill list which is always nice. You'd keep your flight when you become a dragonborn, and also gain some other stuff, including either a breath weapon or blindsense. If you want to wear medium or heavy armor, there are feats to do that while flying in Races of the Dragon as well. If you want to tank, the entangling exhalation feat may interest you, it causes anyone damaged by your breath weapon to be entangled. There's other feat options, as well as spells to augment your breath weapon in Races of the Dragon, Draconomicon, and Spell Compendium.

[dehro]

Dragonborn is exciting.. raptoran sounds like a great combo to have with it, but I think it exceeds the point buy system I am allowed for character creation.
Specifically, I have 5 points to spend as follows on material from sources outside what is allowed:

Detailed costs:
-templates: 3 points
-races: 2,5 points
-classes: 2 points
-Prestige Classes: 2 points
-feats: 1 point (3 feats maximum)
-spells and spell-like abilities: 0,1xlevel
-Magic items: 0,0001xMO

[Anthrowhale]

You might consider Cleric{Spell, Magic} 5/Dweomerkeeper 10/Cleric 5/Dweomerkeeper n. Pick up Scribe Scroll, Extend Spell, Persistent Spell, DMM[Persistent Spell], and Easy Metamagic[Persistent Spell] (1 point), and Extra Turning (many times). Use the Dweomerkeeper mantle of spells to spontaneously cast things like heal and mass heal. Use the Dweomerkeeper Supernatural Spell to strip expensive components from some healing spells. Remember that they must be standard action, so check out things like revenance + revivify. Use the Persistent spells to make yourself an effective tank. Consider Alternate Source Spell (1 point) which allows you to persist L5- typically arcane spells.

This build can be overwhelming if you pick up Initiate of Mystra+Arcane Mastery or use supernatural epic spells. But, you need not do that and there is good support here for both healing and tanking on a cleric.

[dehro]

Persistent is frowned upon, dmm persistent is outright banned, as per op.
Dweomerkeeper is a fun concept, for another time.
I think I'll go with a dragonborn (human our maybe dwarven) cleric of bahamut, if the dm allows the dragonborn. I think raptoran shall have to wait for another day.

[Gusmo]

Dragonborn human is pretty bad, you lose the human skill points and bonus feat by the transformation rules. Dwarf is okay, that total +4 to con is tasty, but I think you'd also lose the ability to not be slowed by armor. Some DMs will waive stuff like this because it's kinda dumb, as it makes some races awesome dragonborn candidates and some terrible candidates in a kind of arbitrary way, but if your DM is super by the book that might be a problem.

[dehro]

So.. dwarf... are there any other not too outlandish races I should be looking into?

[Gusmo]

I think you'll be happy with dwarf as long as you don't mind losing their ability that lets them move at full speed in armor. Though if you want that ability a tooth of Savnok on page 79 of the Tome of Magic can it back for you. Just a question of whether you want to spend the points on it.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Dragon Magazine had a human that traded all human features for a +2 to one stat of their choice so if you want a human that works nicely for dragonborn (although I expect your DM will not permit Dragon Magazine and you are not in a position to enjoy human subtyped goodies)

[Anthrowhale]

Lesser Aasimar was introduced in Faerun I believe, and gives Wis+2, Chr+2, which is decent for a cleric and preserved under Dragonborn.

[ExLibrisMortis]

You could make a counter-magic specialist with cleric 3/church inquisitor 10/divine oracle 8.

You get a number of immunities (charm, compulsion, possession), defences (evasion-in-armour, uncanny dodge, trap sense), and counter-abilities (versus illusions, disguises, shapeshifting, lying (great RP value)), and +4 to dispel checks (which goes beyond the CL cap on greater dispel magic). Pick up Divine Defiance to counterspell out of turn, and you'll be stopping enemy magic without effort. With Initiate of Mystra, you can cast spells in antimagic fields and dead magic zones, and it fits for a cleric of counter-magic.


If you want to get interesting with your DM, how about some levels in Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil (as in cleric 3/CI 10/IotSV 7/DO 2)?

You can meet all the requirements as cleric, but the class only advances arcane casting, probably because prismatic spells are not on the cleric list. You can add them to your list with the Divine Magician ACF: give up one domain, and gain one sor/wiz spell per spell level, of a chosen school (abjuration, divination, or necromancy). Picking abjuration, in theme with the counter-magic inquisitor, you add prismatic wall and prismatic sphere to your list (sadly not prismatic spray, that's evocation). That might convince your DM to allow the PrC to advance divine casting*.

With IotSV, you can create wardings imbued with coloured veils, associated with the seven colours of a prismatic sphere. Very tanky indeed.

Backstory-wise, it's easy to explain the combination: graduated a cleric, found a job as inquisitor, was successful (10 levels!), became interested in prismatic theory due to its applications in [mumble mumble countermagic], and, when done with prismatic theory, decided to look into some divination countermeasures (it's easier to block an attack you can see coming, after all). Note that you finish all PrCs: CI has 10 levels and is meant to be entered as cleric 3, IotSV only has 7 levels due to the theme, and that leaves you with no option but to level further in a third PrC, DO.

*Either that, or you take the Spell domain, and claim that anyspell makes clerics count as arcane casters, but that's impractically cheesy.

[Kalaska'Agathas]

Healer comes with some pretty big drawbacks, and the general feel of the character doesn't really fit with my idea also, the limitation in armour choice... so, no.
Homebrewing the feat progression is also not going to happen. My dm is very by the book.
It looks like I will just go with a straight up cleric, maybe with saint thrown in for the nice things it brings..
Any suggestions on what would be a good selection of feats, considering that we tend to be rather low on undead opponents? Dmm+ persist is, sadly, banned altogether.
Also, race: dwarf? Aasimar? Human? Any other worth considering?

"Homebrewing" the progression for 10 level PrCs is actually how it's done, "by the book". The Epic Level Handbook lays that all out on pages 5-8, with examples (of the DMG PrCs) on pages 17-22. The information is also available on the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/basics.htm).


Dragonborn is exciting.. raptoran sounds like a great combo to have with it, but I think it exceeds the point buy system I am allowed for character creation.
Specifically, I have 5 points to spend as follows on material from sources outside what is allowed:

Detailed costs:
-templates: 3 points
-races: 2,5 points
-classes: 2 points
-Prestige Classes: 2 points
-feats: 1 point (3 feats maximum)
-spells and spell-like abilities: 0,1xlevel
-Magic items: 0,0001xMO

In this case, why not spend 2 points on the Crusader and another 2 on Ruby Knight Vindicator, both from Tome of Battle. Those classes, plus Cleric, lend themselves well to lockdown battlefield control type builds (typically of the Spiked Chain Tripper variety), which would mean you can tank, heal, cast, dish out damage, and provide tactical options other than "I hit it again." Now, obviously, this sort of build can be optimized to the nine hells and back, but with appropriate choices for spells and maneuvers, you need not break the game (any more than a Cleric will do on its own). And for what it's worth, I've found battlefield control, even when optimized, tends not to cause too many problems in lower optimization groups, as it is focused on enabling the other players to better handle any given combat encounter rather than just solving encounters on your own.

The build would look something like Crusader 1/Cleric 9/Ruby Knight Vindicator 11, using Thicket of Blades stance, with Combat Reflexes, Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Spiked Chain, Improved Trip, Knock Down, and whatever else you'd like for feats. I always like Travel Devotion on a Ruby Knight Vindicator, particularly if DMM and Undead aren't eating up all of your turn attempts. As far as race is concerned, I'd go either Goliath (Races of Stone) or Human with the Jotunbrud feat - either grants an effective +4 to Trip attempts (since you count as Large), and both let you trip larger monsters than a medium creature would otherwise be able to, which can be pretty valuable if you're facing Huge creatures with any regularity. Of course, Ruby Knight Vindicator will require adaptation for Faerun, but it is suggested in the class description that the PrC may be adapted for ("almost") any deity you choose, so that shouldn't be a problem.

But that's just one option. In any case, if your DM is doing Epic PrC progressions by the book, I'd go Cleric 10/Radiant Servant of Whomever 11, or some other such build, rather than straight Cleric. But that's just my 2 cp.

[dehro]

No can do.. this build would exceed the point buy system allowance.
A party member suggests I should go with cleric of Bahamut 11/ sacred exorcist 10...it looks rather good to me

[Gusmo]

If you're going to use prestige classes divine oracle is pretty darned good if you're going to be tanking, due to its evasion ability. You'd still need a way to get reflex saves high enough for that to be worthwhile though, and you could also just buy a ring of evasion.

[Kalaska'Agathas]

No can do.. this build would exceed the point buy system allowance.
A party member suggests I should go with cleric of Bahamut 11/ sacred exorcist 10...it looks rather good to me

In that case, I'd go Cleric of Bahamut 10/Sacred Exorcist 11 - you lose nothing to compared to advancing Cleric, gain the Epic Bonus Feats progression, and continue to advance your Chosen Foe and Dispell Evil class abilities.

I'm not sure where the tripper build above exceeds your point buy, however - you have five points, and spend two each on Crusader and Ruby Knight Vindicator, yes? It would seem to me that you'd have a point left over, in that case. The four tripping feats are all in the SRD, Jotunbrud is Faerun material, and Travel Devotion is from Complete Champion, so I'm not sure where I'm going over, exactly. In any case, it was only a suggestion, I'd just like to better understand the restrictions your under, to avoid advising anything that wouldn't be allowed.

[dehro]

I think there was an issue with talents and prerequisites.. but I may be mistaken and maybe you're right..
anyhoo.. the build you suggested is a little off.. flavour-wise, with what I'm looking for
I'm still considering the exorcist.. but...
as the.. I want to say brainstorming but it's more like gentle rain in a small pond.. continues.. the DM has suggested I look into the dracolyte.
he seems to be pushing me, if I want to stick to the dragonborn thing (which I do), towards going the whole 9 yards with the dragon affiliation theme..so thinks that if I don't stick to cleric all the way, I should look into a PrC that is thematically appropriate with dragons or bahamut specifically.
Vassal of Bahamut is ruled out on account of needing to be not draconic (also, wearing the vassal's armor is kind of against the fluff of the dragonborn race).. so, there's that.
but dracolyte is actually looking good

[Gusmo]

The swift wing prestige class in Dragon Magic is kinda cool.

[Esprit15]

Pure Cleric opens up bonus epic feats. Rods of Extend coupled with DMM Persist would be the way that I go. Persist things like Divine Power, Divine Agility, Greater Visage of the Deity.

[Kalaska'Agathas]

Pure Cleric opens up bonus epic feats. Rods of Extend coupled with DMM Persist would be the way that I go. Persist things like Divine Power, Divine Agility, Greater Visage of the Deity.

DMM: Persist is forbidden and continuing [Insert 10 level Prestige Class Here] into epic also opens up Epic bonus feats.

[dehro]

so... I've decided I'll either do cleric 11/ dracolyte 10, or cleric 10/dracolyte 11.. provided I can work out with the DM how to manage the extra dracolyte level.

I'm a little confused as to the domains that Bahamut grants access to.. specifically, the listing includes: Protection (Nobility, Storm).

so.. which is it? is it protection? does protection include the other two as a freebie? should I decide between nobility and storm but can't I pick protection? it's an odd way of listing things.

also, suggestions on what domain to pick?
Air domain is a pick because reasons (background, character inclination etc etc)..
glory domain is a bonus, is given by the dracolyte,
that leaves 1 domain to pick... unless I take an extra domain (do I need it though?)