Aegis: too strong?

[Lormador]

Disclaimer: I am 100% in favor of melee getting nice things, and am a huge fan of the Tome of Battle. I have been since the beginning. I'm also a fan of DSP, particularly their rework of psionics for Pathfinder.

Aegis is a Pathfinder class from Dreamscarred Press found here: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/aegis

At first glance, the chassis is quality: full BA, 4 skills, UMD as one of them, good Fort and Will saves.

The main function of the class is to make armor out of ectoplasm, and you can form it into a psychoactive skin in case you've got real armor that gives a better AC bonus. The chief value of the suit is how customized you can make it, and there's a long list of available customizations linked right there from the class.

Some of them are really sweet, like unlimited flight at 5th level for an investment of 2 customization points (out of 8 with nothing else put into it). Some of them are conditionally strong, like Darkvision or underwater breathing. A few are always going to be nice, like +2 enhancement to Str/Dex/Con coming online way before you have items to replicate the bonus for all these.

Straight out of the gate, compared with the Barbarian, I've got a 1st level melee character with +2 to Strength on all the time (as opposed to +4 when raging), in his psychoactive skin giving him the same +10' to his speed. I've got a free +2 to Dex along the way and 1 point left over for whatever I want.

Still, with no bonus feats and no mechanic like Rage, one might wonder where the offensive punch is going to come from on a character like this. Must we take a dip into something?

As it turns out, not at all, not if Path of War and/or Akashic Mysteries is allowed. Path of War includes a sweet 2 point customization that gets you 3 maneuvers and a stance, at full initiator level, and unusual recovery mechanic (not one well suited to combat). From any two disciplines and Sleeping Goddess!

Those 2 customization points are comparable to at least a pair of Martial Training feats, which would get 3 maneuvers and a stance. Only they are a bit better because you get full IL from the customization, whereas with the feats it will possibly be lower. You can pour more customization points into it if you feel like it. At level 6, a 6th level Warder would know 8 maneuvers, could ready 5, and know 3 stances. An Aegis, putting in all of his basic 9 customization points, could get 8 known, 6 readied, with 2 stances.

Of course, that would be a waste of customization points because who needs all those extra maneuvers? The initial investment of 2 points yields the best return.

1 customization point, after all, is also sufficient to get the Lesser Chakra Bind customization, which duplicates the benefit of a feat with a "character level 7th" prereq that you just blow by. You can get any veil for 1 point too. There's all kinds of stuff you can do with more points on top of that, including getting a big pile of essence to power the veil, more veils, more chakras, etc.

The Aegis has seamless access to whole books full of abilities almost comparable to cleric and druid. While I wouldn't call it tier 1, I am uncomfortable placing it in tier 3 or even the cop-out-category 2.5. Why would I play a melee character of any other class, outside of being daunted by the complexity of this one?

[khadgar567]

Disclaimer: I am 100% in favor of melee getting nice things, and am a huge fan of the Tome of Battle. I have been since the beginning. I'm also a fan of DSP, particularly their rework of psionics for Pathfinder.

Aegis is a Pathfinder class from Dreamscarred Press found here: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/aegis

At first glance, the chassis is quality: full BA, 4 skills, UMD as one of them, good Fort and Will saves.

The main function of the class is to make armor out of ectoplasm, and you can form it into a psychoactive skin in case you've got real armor that gives a better AC bonus. The chief value of the suit is how customized you can make it, and there's a long list of available customizations linked right there from the class.

Some of them are really sweet, like unlimited flight at 5th level for an investment of 2 customization points (out of 8 with nothing else put into it). Some of them are conditionally strong, like Darkvision or underwater breathing. A few are always going to be nice, like +2 enhancement to Str/Dex/Con coming online way before you have items to replicate the bonus for all these.

Straight out of the gate, compared with the Barbarian, I've got a 1st level melee character with +2 to Strength on all the time (as opposed to +4 when raging), in his psychoactive skin giving him the same +10' to his speed. I've got a free +2 to Dex along the way and 1 point left over for whatever I want.

Still, with no bonus feats and no mechanic like Rage, one might wonder where the offensive punch is going to come from on a character like this. Must we take a dip into something?

As it turns out, not at all, not if Path of War and/or Akashic Mysteries is allowed. Path of War includes a sweet 2 point customization that gets you 3 maneuvers and a stance, at full initiator level, and unusual recovery mechanic (not one well suited to combat). From any two disciplines and Sleeping Goddess!

Those 2 customization points are comparable to at least a pair of Martial Training feats, which would get 3 maneuvers and a stance. Only they are a bit better because you get full IL from the customization, whereas with the feats it will possibly be lower. You can pour more customization points into it if you feel like it. At level 6, a 6th level Warder would know 8 maneuvers, could ready 5, and know 3 stances. An Aegis, putting in all of his basic 9 customization points, could get 8 known, 6 readied, with 2 stances.

Of course, that would be a waste of customization points because who needs all those extra maneuvers? The initial investment of 2 points yields the best return.

1 customization point, after all, is also sufficient to get the Lesser Chakra Bind customization, which duplicates the benefit of a feat with a "character level 7th" prereq that you just blow by. You can get any veil for 1 point too. There's all kinds of stuff you can do with more points on top of that, including getting a big pile of essence to power the veil, more veils, more chakras, etc.

The Aegis has seamless access to whole books full of abilities almost comparable to cleric and druid. While I wouldn't call it tier 1, I am uncomfortable placing it in tier 3 or even the cop-out-category 2.5. Why would I play a melee character of any other class, outside of being daunted by the complexity of this one?
wait for eventual return of arcforge then tell me if its lover power then figter ow before forgeting statfinder can and will make it even more powerful

[Tuvarkz]

It's more a matter of flexibility than sheer power. Sure, the aegis gets a permanent + to strength, but it won't stack with the belt of giant strength. Same with Increased Size. Aegis gets initiation and can swap disciplines daily, but it's on a delayed progression and has issues accessing higher level maneuvers, and doesn't have that much of a good recovery method, and it's costly in number of customization points to have a solid maneuver pool. The Aegis doesn't get much in the way of bonus combat feats. There's stuff like Evasion or Stalwart for defensive choices, but without maneuvers or other methods to pump up their saves, the Aegis's saves aren't particularly stellar either.

In terms of sheer power, the Aegis isn't really on par with the warlord or the harbinger, but outstrips them in power flexibility. The Aegis has the ultimate amount of flexibility, however, making the class the jack-of-all-trades, master of none, that is meant to define Tier 3 properly.

[BWR]

It's more a matter of flexibility than sheer power. Sure, the aegis gets a permanent + to strength, but it won't stack with the belt of giant strength. Same with Increased Size. Aegis gets initiation and can swap disciplines daily, but it's on a delayed progression and has issues accessing higher level maneuvers, and doesn't have that much of a good recovery method, and it's costly in number of customization points to have a solid maneuver pool. The Aegis doesn't get much in the way of bonus combat feats. There's stuff like Evasion or Stalwart for defensive choices, but without maneuvers or other methods to pump up their saves, the Aegis's saves aren't particularly stellar either.

In terms of sheer power, the Aegis isn't really on par with the warlord or the harbinger, but outstrips them in power flexibility. The Aegis has the ultimate amount of flexibility, however, making the class the jack-of-all-trades, master of none, that is meant to define Tier 3 properly.

This was my experience playing one. I didn't do as much damage as the Fighter, I could not buff the entire party like a proper caster, I wasn't a skill monkey, but thanks to DR x/- I was an excellent tank, I could always come up with some useful ability - for myself if no one else - so I was never useless, and it was a lot of fun to play. Even with the nerfs the GM threw at me.

[lord_khaine]

Yeah, having read though the class, it sounds like a psionic version of Iron man. And looks very playable without being to OP.
I agree on the T3 verdict

[EisenKreutzer]

Yeah, having read though the class, it sounds like a psionic version of Iron man. And looks very playable without being to OP.
I agree on the T3 verdict

Did you also read through Tome of Battle, ToBE and Akashic Mysteries? Because most of the options OP is talking about comes from there, and offers near total access to those mechanics.

[Epic Legand]

Your suggesting you can take the same customization 2 or more times, I believe you cannot. Thus, its never going to replace a real POW class. Recovery in battle is also a big issue, which an Aegis is really not going to do, but is built in for most POW classes. It does give increased flexibility, and if mysteries or maneuvers are a choice ( game tables vary ), then I would rank them a tier 3. A low 3. I
ts a class aimed at giving you magic items as class features. Great on defense, but what more powerful ? Offense or Defense? Nothing in this class ranks them anywhere near tier 2.

[Lormador]

The only thing taken multiple times in my demonstration was the 1 point "Additional Maneuvers" customization, which explicitly can be taken any number of times.

It's hard to appreciate the potency of the Aegis class partly because its best abilities are spread out and buried in a lot of different places. It's also certainly true that the Path of War classes have text, and that their recovery mechanics are highly relevant in combat. Their capabilities are a lot easier to conceptualize because they have access to a handful of disciplines, instead of all of them, and they can't just switch out their 3rd level stance when they feel like it.

So let's take a step back and look at something a little easier, like one of those in-between games in a town or city. The game isn't totally about combat after all (not that I intend to neglect that aspect), and I'm sure we've all seen the sad sight of the deadly melee character heading straight for the tavern while some other character does his shopping for him.

Well, the Aegis certainly isn't going to lack for things to do.

He is a very good item crafter, for one thing.

His shard collection: +10 shards are very reasonably priced. Diplomacy, anyone?

The power stone collection: 2 customization gives him a 1st level power, maybe Chameleon or Conceal Thoughts

2 points into martial maneuvers (you know, just in case someone gets fresh) can get Riven Hourglass: Distorted Clock stance to double the duration of that power if it's a buff

2 more points can give us, shaped and bound, Sentinel's Helm or a shaped Waistband of the Wealthy; maybe we have 1 point of essence from a feat to increase their potency, but if not we could spend 2 points for 1/2 level in essence

If I'm a 5th level Aegis with a favored class bonus in customization points, I have 9 total. My sample loadout costs 7 points, so we can keep our wings: a nice way to escape if things truly go wrong.

This class is totally sweet.

OTOH the tier 2/3 definition contains a raw power clause: and I certainly wouldn't claim that the Aegis is able to compete in terms of raw power with the likes of Sorcerer and Psion. It certainly does look better than most of the other tier 3 classes though. Cmon, Bard? This is way better than the other tier 3 classes.

[Ualaa]

It hasn't been overly powerful nor useless in our games.

The Aegis has a decent chassis, Fort/Will saves, d10 hit dice, full BAB.
You can go with an Astral Skin (no armor, but still enhancements), the equivalent of Chain Mail and the equivalent of Plate.
You start off with the equivalent of slightly weaker mundane armor, which upgrades a bit a few levels in.
Each of the types has a few base/free enhancements.

If you're multiclassing, the feat 'Student of the Astral Suit' lets you count as four levels higher, for the suit augments but only to a maximum of your total character level.
It's a nice option for someone who wants to multiclass a bit.
Say... soulknife 3+ (with 'Fighter's Blade'), aegis 3+ (with 'Student of the Astral Suit') and up to one level somewhere else... then continue with Soulknife or Aegis, whichever is more important to you.
That's not saying you couldn't go Aegis 3/Something Else 4/then continue one of those two.

You can have the equivalent of +6 enhancement bonus to Str or Con, or maybe both if you have the levels.
The suit can get you flight, more damage with weapons, reach, the ability to swim/breathe water, fortification, evasion, stalward (evasion for Fort/Will saves) etc.
You're still essentially a melee class, but with more options.

I like the archetype Trailblazer.
That gets you 'Find Traps' like a Rogue (I believe at 4th level), and restricts you as to which augments you can switch between (as a Swift action, instead of a Standard)... basically the augments movement and senses.

[Prime32]

Aegis: too strong?
Aegis is just a nerfed version of Synthesist Summoner, which is a nerfed version of regular Summoner. :smallconfused:

[EisenKreutzer]

Aegis is just a nerfed version of Synthesist Summoner, which is a nerfed version of regular Summoner. :smallconfused:

Straight out of the book? Yes.
With access to all the Dreamscarred Press material? Much more powerful.

[Dagroth]

I don't know much about Pathfinder... but as I recall from ToB, to get access to higher level Maneuvers and Stances you had to have at least a few lower level Maneuvers and Stances already.

Which means that an Aegis shouldn't have access to many (most?) of the better Maneuvers & Stances unless you dedicate yourself to one school. And even then, the recovery mechanic is bad.

[Lormador]

This is true, it'll mostly be focused on one discipline especially at higher levels unless a splash and/or the Martial Training feats are thrown in. But it's a solid melee character. Aberrant Aegis gains tentacle/stinger natural attacks for 1 customization point, and a Pounce attack is a level 2 Primal Fury maneuver.

I could make a Lizardfolk Aberrant Aegis, with just Multiattack as a feat, and Pounce in with 8 natural attacks at level 4. At level 5 I could take Extra Customization and do it from flight, which gets past a lot of the terrain/obstacle difficulties of charging. I still have 2 maneuvers and a stance undeclared.

Aside from the one feat and a strange race choice, I haven't locked resources into a "natural attack build" that can't do anything else. There are many ways to get natural attacks from feats, race, and traits. Aegis itself has a lot of ways to get them even without using Aberrant, thanks to the Akashic Mysteries.

Student of the Astral Suit is a great feat that makes Aegis very multiclass-friendly. I wonder what the best classes to splash out of it are. Barbarian, Mutagenic Mauler, Warlord, etc all look so tasty.

[Dagroth]

This is true, it'll mostly be focused on one discipline especially at higher levels unless a splash and/or the Martial Training feats are thrown in. But it's a solid melee character. Aberrant Aegis gains tentacle/stinger natural attacks for 1 customization point, and a Pounce attack is a level 2 Primal Fury maneuver.

I could make a Lizardfolk Aberrant Aegis, with just Multiattack as a feat, and Pounce in with 8 natural attacks at level 4. At level 5 I could take Extra Customization and do it from flight, which gets past a lot of the terrain/obstacle difficulties of charging. I still have 2 maneuvers and a stance undeclared.

Aside from the one feat and a strange race choice, I haven't locked resources into a "natural attack build" that can't do anything else. There are many ways to get natural attacks from feats, race, and traits. Aegis itself has a lot of ways to get them even without using Aberrant, thanks to the Akashic Mysteries.

Student of the Astral Suit is a great feat that makes Aegis very multiclass-friendly. I wonder what the best classes to splash out of it are. Barbarian, Mutagenic Mauler, Warlord, etc all look so tasty.

So... it sounds strong (if well optimized) at low levels, and strong (but pretty focused) at higher levels.

[Lormador]

I'm saying that it starts to look like a "weak" tier 1 class at a certain point, since that tier is defined as a combination of power and flexibility: enough that it can eclipse other tiers at the very things they were constructed to accomplish, while still turning around to do those other things. The classic example we all know is the Druid's buffed animal companion being a better fighter than the fighter.

Well, here we have the 5th level Aegis with top shelf melee ability (8 natural attacks and a flying pounce) who can sneak into the palace the next day to Diplomance the princess (via power stones, shard-boosted skills, and veilweaving).

His tricks are a bit item-dependent, but they aren't expensive: he's only using consumable items in a way that does not consume them.

Once he gets his hands on a Scroll of Animate Dead, he'll have no trouble reading it, etc.

So there it is really, the demonstration of low-level tier 1 power: for as long as something like the 8 attack pounce is comparable to the most effective thing a character can contribute in combat, and if you recognize the line of abilities that lets the Aegis out-do less effective classes (like the Rogue) at precisely what they are supposed to do best, it stands.

Of course there's a shelf life to melee attacks, and right about when people start casting Black Tentacles or 300 damage metamagic Orbs it's time for them to relinquish the high seat.

[Gnaeus]

I'm saying that it starts to look like a "weak" tier 1 class at a certain point, since that tier is defined as a combination of power and flexibility: enough that it can eclipse other tiers at the very things they were constructed to accomplish, while still turning around to do those other things. The classic example we all know is the Druid's buffed animal companion being a better fighter than the fighter.

Well, here we have the 5th level Aegis with top shelf melee ability (8 natural attacks and a flying pounce) who can sneak into the palace the next day to Diplomance the princess (via power stones, shard-boosted skills, and veilweaving).

His tricks are a bit item-dependent, but they aren't expensive: he's only using consumable items in a way that does not consume them.

Once he gets his hands on a Scroll of Animate Dead, he'll have no trouble reading it, etc.

So there it is really, the demonstration of low-level tier 1 power: for as long as something like the 8 attack pounce is comparable to the most effective thing a character can contribute in combat, and if you recognize the line of abilities that lets the Aegis out-do less effective classes (like the Rogue) at precisely what they are supposed to do best, it stands.

Of course there's a shelf life to melee attacks, and right about when people start casting Black Tentacles or 300 damage metamagic Orbs it's time for them to relinquish the high seat.

A charge pounce barbarian with shock Trooper that can do 800 damage a charge is a Tier 4, not a tier 1. Druid isn't Tier 1 because they have a charging pet. Druid is Tier 1 because they have a Tier 1 spell list that lets them level cities and walk across continents and turn into a solar. Killing things in melee is a Tier 4 power. Killing things in melee with built in ways to deal with challenges (DR, flight incorporeal, etc) is a low tier 3 power. Without having seen one in play, I think Aegis is low T3, but I've seen an argument it is T4.

Also, tiers are optimization dependent. Aegis can duplicate some PoW powers if you have required sources and opti-fu. But so can fighter. An aegis using PoW material is compared with a pretty high op fighter, and stupid levels of damage is a high op fighter trick.

[EisenKreutzer]

A charge pounce barbarian with shock Trooper that can do 800 damage a charge is a Tier 4, not a tier 1. Druid isn't Tier 1 because they have a charging pet. Druid is Tier 1 because they have a Tier 1 spell list that lets them level cities and walk across continents and turn into a solar. Killing things in melee is a Tier 4 power. Killing things in melee with built in ways to deal with challenges (DR, flight incorporeal, etc) is a low tier 3 power. Without having seen one in play, I think Aegis is low T3, but I've seen an argument it is T4.

Also, tiers are optimization dependent. Aegis can duplicate some PoW powers if you have required sources and opti-fu. But so can fighter. An aegis using PoW material is compared with a pretty high op fighter, and stupid levels of damage is a high op fighter trick.

A wizard is Tier 1 because he can be supremely effective in combat, out of combat, and in any situation the game can throw at him. It has less to do with combat power and more with effectiveness, versatility and options.

The Aegis can be a combat monster, but can also draw from a wealth of customizations that allow them to excell in virtually any situation, in combat and out of combat.

[Gnaeus]

A wizard is Tier 1 because he can be supremely effective in combat, out of combat, and in any situation the game can throw at him. It has less to do with combat power and more with effectiveness, versatility and options.

The Aegis can be a combat monster, but can also draw from a wealth of customizations that allow them to excell in virtually any situation, in combat and out of combat.

OK. The following are typical high tier abilities. How does the Aegis duplicate them without UMD.

1. Travel thousands of miles in a few minutes
2. Travel between planes
3. Heal himself or other party members of damage or conditions
4. Break action economy by creating minions
5. Scry on enemies
6. Prevent being scried on by enemies
7. Bypass mundane defenses via means like teleport or earthmeld
8. Disable hordes of enemies at the same time via multiple methods (like having a mass fort save disabler, a mass will save disabler, and a mass reflex save disabler).
9. Manipulate the terrain
10. Devastate enemy armies or cities
11. Survive his own death
12. Buff party members, including protecting them from elements, negative energy attacks, grapples...
13. Defeat enemies that are immune to damage
14. End enemy spells

Every one of those things I can do with a Beguiler and a couple of first party feats, and beguiler is hotly debated if it reaches tier 2 or tier 3. I can do all of them with an oracle or a sorcerer or shaman.

I know the aegis can do decent damage and deny a number of conditions. I don't think he's anywhere close to tier 1. How many of those can aegis hit. I'm really asking, I'm not an expert, but I think not many.

[Thaneus]

Overall, from my point of view, it just plainly sits in the Tier 3 seat, even when added with the mentioned sources.
Unfortunately it lags the "screw you all, you die" mechanism or "get everyone out of here" stuff.

For a BSF it is certenly a very versatile option and competitive with warder, warlord and co but certainly not with psion, sorcerer, cleric, ... (complete list with T1-T2).
It lag just to much.

But, for beginners, system changers or "lazy" people it a very powerful choice.

[Tuvarkz]

I'm saying that it starts to look like a "weak" tier 1 class at a certain point, since that tier is defined as a combination of power and flexibility: enough that it can eclipse other tiers at the very things they were constructed to accomplish, while still turning around to do those other things. The classic example we all know is the Druid's buffed animal companion being a better fighter than the fighter.

Except that the definition of Tier 1 involves a) campaign breaking abilities, b) completely outclassing Tier 3 classes
The Aegis will never outdo an Inquisitor or Warlord in terms of damage, or an Alchemist or Magus in terms of at-hand immunity.
The Fighter is tier 5, and low 4 with all the splats available. Completely outdoing a Fighter means the class is tier 3 at minimum, but in no way a sign of Tier 1.
To note, pointing to Gnaeus, Aegis can do
1) Tried my best, but optimally the Aegis does 15k feet per minute (aka barely 3 miles); which is nowhere near it, and requires taking Advanced Study at least once.
7) Teleportation maneuvers, boosts and strikes that allow hardness bypass
8) Can be done via the Fool's Errand 9th replicating a variety of high level maneuvers, although may also require further investment in a second advanced study.
10) Partial-Silver Crane Spiral+damage boost+Distance Composite Longbow allows for a 220 feet radius of death on armies, but nothing on destroying cities.
13) Can induce save or dies, but most require advanced study at level 17
14) Can be done via a few counters and stances, but likely requires advanced study feat investment.

[EisenKreutzer]

OK. The following are typical high tier abilities. How does the Aegis duplicate them without UMD.

1. Travel thousands of miles in a few minutes
2. Travel between planes
3. Heal himself or other party members of damage or conditions
4. Break action economy by creating minions
5. Scry on enemies
6. Prevent being scried on by enemies
7. Bypass mundane defenses via means like teleport or earthmeld
8. Disable hordes of enemies at the same time via multiple methods (like having a mass fort save disabler, a mass will save disabler, and a mass reflex save disabler).
9. Manipulate the terrain
10. Devastate enemy armies or cities
11. Survive his own death
12. Buff party members, including protecting them from elements, negative energy attacks, grapples...
13. Defeat enemies that are immune to damage
14. End enemy spells

Every one of those things I can do with a Beguiler and a couple of first party feats, and beguiler is hotly debated if it reaches tier 2 or tier 3. I can do all of them with an oracle or a sorcerer or shaman.

I know the aegis can do decent damage and deny a number of conditions. I don't think he's anywhere close to tier 1. How many of those can aegis hit. I'm really asking, I'm not an expert, but I think not many.

I'm not really arguing that the Aegis is Tier 1. In fact, I think it is high Tier 3.
I just saw that a lot of people were ignoring OPs point, and judgeing the Aegis based only on the material in Ultimate Psionics, and I was trying to draw attention to the fact that OP was referring to other DSP material when they said the Aegis was very powerful.

[Gnaeus]

To note, pointing to Gnaeus, Aegis can do
1) Tried my best, but optimally the Aegis does 15k feet per minute (aka barely 3 miles); which is nowhere near it, and requires taking Advanced Study at least once.
7) Teleportation maneuvers, boosts and strikes that allow hardness bypass
8) Can be done via the Fool's Errand 9th replicating a variety of high level maneuvers, although may also require further investment in a second advanced study.
10) Partial-Silver Crane Spiral+damage boost+Distance Composite Longbow allows for a 220 feet radius of death on armies, but nothing on destroying cities.
13) Can induce save or dies, but most require advanced study at level 17
14) Can be done via a few counters and stances, but likely requires advanced study feat investment.

So, none easily. And the ones he can do he does in exactly the same method as a fighter. Way worse than a brawler who can take Advanced Study as a floating feat. 7 in particular I think is a fail. Hardness bypassing strikes and short range teleports help you navigate a dungeon. Teleport or earthbind + scrying lets you completely bypass the dungeon by going straight to the boss and killing them without interacting with impediments at all. That doesn't shift my view any (not that you were trying to, since we agree on T3.)


I'm not really arguing that the Aegis is Tier 1. In fact, I think it is high Tier 3.
I just saw that a lot of people were ignoring OPs point, and judgeing the Aegis based only on the material in Ultimate Psionics, and I was trying to draw attention to the fact that OP was referring to other DSP material when they said the Aegis was very powerful.
I don't particularly see that as a + for Aegis. Again, most of the cited tricks outside Ultimate Psionics can be done by any muggle. It's almost like saying that Aegis is good because it can take Leadership. Yes, its true, but so can anyone else.

[Lormador]

My argument pertains to a low-level environment, but being curious, I'll take a look at these things. I don't have infinite time so this is an incomplete list.

#2, Astral Caravan baby!
#3, heal himself and others, numerous maneuvers do that
#4, minions from binding Lover's Tread on feet for Charm Monster, Modify Memory power stones
#5, Remote Viewing is a 4th level Psion power that he can get a stone for, and use without consuming it
#6, Detect Remote Viewing from the same list
#7, bypass mundane defenses, numerous maneuvers provide tactical teleportation and incorporeality
#8 is a tall order, but there's an Akashic thing that raises the attitude of all creatures within 60' by one step on a failed save, and unfriendly creatures don't attack; also see #13, and there are lots of things to be done here with Power Stones
#9, a feat can give Ditchdigger's Armlets that create spiked pits, and ofc Power Stones for Energy Wall
#11, Survive your own death, that's an 8th level Sleeping Goddess maneuver away
#13 is a long shot, but again an Akashic thing available via feat can remove immunity from mind-affecting things, and these things can then be subject to fear/charm; and ofc power stones
#14, end enemy spells, that's an 8th level Cursed Razor stance: Luckdrinker's Aura (or good ole Iron Heart Surge, situationally)


...a lot of this is weak to the point of laughability, like Astral Caravan or the idea of "going aggro" with Power Stones. And some stuff is still missing, like teleportation. Considering that this is a melee character who did not break out his UMD, though, not bad eh?

The Power Stone trick I will claim exception for: putting stones into the armor is the way (almost the only way) for the class to use its native power point reserve. No stones are harmed in the use of this maneuver, so to my mind this is as natural as a wizard buying a peek at a new spell to add to his repertoire, and is not quite the same thing as a Fighter kicking out dough to UMD a Polymorph Any Object scroll.

But yeah, I had to paw through page after page of "yet more ways to deal damage" to get to this stuff.

[Gnaeus]

My argument pertains to a low-level environment, but being curious, I'll take a look at these things. I don't have infinite time so this is an incomplete list.

#2, Astral Caravan baby!
#3, heal himself and others, numerous maneuvers do that
#4, minions from binding Lover's Tread on feet for Charm Monster, Modify Memory power stones
#5, Remote Viewing is a 4th level Psion power that he can get a stone for, and use without consuming it
#6, Detect Remote Viewing from the same list
#7, bypass mundane defenses, numerous maneuvers provide tactical teleportation and incorporeality
#8 is a tall order, but there's an Akashic thing that raises the attitude of all creatures within 60' by one step on a failed save, and unfriendly creatures don't attack; also see #13, and there are lots of things to be done here with Power Stones
#9, a feat can give Ditchdigger's Armlets that create spiked pits, and ofc Power Stones for Energy Wall
#11, Survive your own death, that's an 8th level Sleeping Goddess maneuver away
#13 is a long shot, but again an Akashic thing available via feat can remove immunity from mind-affecting things, and these things can then be subject to fear/charm; and ofc power stones
#14, end enemy spells, that's an 8th level Cursed Razor stance: Luckdrinker's Aura (or good ole Iron Heart Surge, situationally)


...a lot of this is weak to the point of laughability, like Astral Caravan or the idea of "going aggro" with Power Stones. And some stuff is still missing, like teleportation. Considering that this is a melee character who did not break out his UMD, though, not bad eh?

The Power Stone trick I will claim exception for: putting stones into the armor is the way (almost the only way) for the class to use its native power point reserve. No stones are harmed in the use of this maneuver, so to my mind this is as natural as a wizard buying a peek at a new spell to add to his repertoire, and is not quite the same thing as a Fighter kicking out dough to UMD a Polymorph Any Object scroll.

But yeah, I had to paw through page after page of "yet more ways to deal damage" to get to this stuff.

It's certainly not bad. No one thinks it's a bad class, but I agree that many of these are weak to the point of laughability as you say.

I deny your power stone exception on consistency grounds. To my mind, it is fundamentally the same as a beguiler or dread Necro using a runestaff. It doesn't take charges, but it isn't a class power. If you can get good gear, it helps. By that standard, there are tons of OP Tier 1s by gear alone. Vizier, to give only one DSP example, can auto UMD items without using up charges, and doesn't crack Tier 2.

I'm playing, in different games, a Daevic, a Vizier, and a sorcerer. Daevic is good! Vizier is better! But really, neither one touches the T2 in power or versatility.

3. Maneuvers to do that. So, you are a worse initiator, who do that worse than a T1
4. Lovers tread sucks for minionmancy. You need trippable opponents who are vulnerable to mind affecting. You need to beat their CMD and then they get a will save with a pathetic DC and the bonus they get for being in combat is bigger than the penalty from the veil.
5 requires an item
6 requires an item and doesn't stop the scrying
7 you will have to be more clear. I don't know of a way for an initiator to do what I'm talking about, but there's lots of recent material so I'm not saying it can't be done
8 so you have one sub par method, fail
9. Ditchdigger armlets are decent. About like a level 2-3 spell. Not T1 level
11 indomitable Idealism is a counter. A bypassable counter. It's not on the level of clone, or astral projecting.
14 luckdrinker aura is an 8th level power that is less versatile than greater dispel magic.

Again, you are showing good stuff. But the best of it is easier from an initiator or a akashic, and none of those guys are T2, or close to T2. Vizier is probably closest by pretending to be an artificer.

My sorcerer, by contrast, is not high op by board standards. His familiar is functionally a second caster via UMD. He can planar bind and animate dead to put 6-8 melee minions in play long term. They are individually weaker than our group's barbarian, but collectively much stronger. He has greater dispel, but his summoned creatures can spam it as an at will. With the single exception of the mind blank (which he will get soon), he can do everything on the list better than an Aegis every day. He can disable multiple enemies with any save. The celestial rocs he summons are gargantuan creatures with DR 10, 20 foot reach 150 hp and can trivially lock down most enemies. He can buff or debuff with 0 notice. The only thing that prevents him from completely obsoleting both our melee types and the dungeon design itself is my desire to play nicely with others. And again, he's played at an op level many on this board would laugh at. And wizards > sorcerers. That's what an OP class looks like. Aegis is a solid selection of T3-4 abilities mostly dealing with melee or defenses.

[Epic Legand]

I think you have your answer. If your DM, just say " I don't like them". If your not DM, then the general consensus is teir 3. I think they are a fun class, but not one I consider if I want to run a powerful character. Your fully entitled to disagree.

[Milo v3]

It sounds very very very unlikely for the Akashic Mysteries customizations to make aegis too strong, giving them up to three daevic veils for 6 points isn't that powerful, and that's without any essence to improve the veils and without any of the chakra benefits which require extra customization points. Even if you try to focus on them, you're going to be worse essence-wise than a daevic because they share their essence among their veils.

[Lormador]

I must confess that I am motivated partly by my own desire to play an Aegis, and I want to do so without any breaks on it (like nerfing the Path of War stuff).

Having examined it carefully and more or less come to a consensus, on the Internet of all places, I will now be able to present the case squarely to my potential DM and possibly get my wish.

I also have a character splashing Aegis in one of my game and was curious whether I could allow him the full Monty without fear of things getting out of hand. Given that his fellow player is a Druid and they're level 11, I was wrong to worry.

[Kaouse]

OK. The following are typical high tier abilities. How does the Aegis duplicate them without UMD.

Now that the Aegis has the Host of Heroes archetype, I think he performs a lot better at some of these tasks.


1. Travel thousands of miles in a few minutes
2. Travel between planes
3. Heal himself or other party members of damage or conditions
4. Break action economy by creating minions
5. Scry on enemies
6. Prevent being scried on by enemies
7. Bypass mundane defenses via means like teleport or earthmeld

All of this is now directly capable with the Host of Heroes archetype. 12 points into the Archmage Monomyth grants Psychoport for long range teleportation. 12 points into the Hierophant Monomyth grants Planar Travel for...planar travel. Hierophant Monomyth also gives Channel Energy and some condition healing, as does the Radiant Dawn Discipline from Path of War.

Depending on the Aegis's choice for monomyth, he can even choose to cast cleric spells, wizard spells, or psion powers as spell-like abilities, up to spell level 4. This allows him to cast things like Nondetection (3rd level spell) and Detect Scrying (4th level spell) and even Animate Dead (4th level wizard spell; though it's 3rd level for clerics, the Hierophant Faith ability prohibits the casting of anything against alignment and anything with an expensive material component; the Archmage Magecraft ability DGAF).

Given the Aegis's ability to also cast an augmented Psychic Reformation (4th level power), the Aegis basically has spontaneous access to any level 4 or lower spell on the wizard/cleric/psion lists. That's an impressive amount of versatility, no?



8. Disable hordes of enemies at the same time via multiple methods (like having a mass fort save disabler, a mass will save disabler, and a mass reflex save disabler).
9. Manipulate the terrain
10. Devastate enemy armies or cities

Gotta say, AoE is definitely the Aegis's weak spot. Most of his options here are laughably ineffcient, like Black Tentacles at 18th level, or some Elemental Flux manuever. I will definitely concede this point, though I think that once the Aegis gets access to Spheres of Power in the upcoming "City of Seven Seraphs" book, this might change.

Even without direct support though, nothing is really stopping the Aegis from simply taking Basic & Advanced Magical Training as feats, grabbing the Weather Sphere and a staff for the Weather Sphere, then grabbing the Climate advanced Talent for widespread Weathermancy.



11. Survive his own death
12. Buff party members, including protecting them from elements, negative energy attacks, grapples...
13. Defeat enemies that are immune to damage
14. End enemy spells

Most of this stuff can be done via high - level Path of War maneuvers (or low level spells, for #12). I know that the sentiment here was that the Aegis was lacking compared to most initiators, but the Host of Heroes archetype helps here as well. Namely, dedicating 9 points to the Champion Monomyth gives you a free floating combat feat, which you can use to grab Advanced Study.

Unlike most floating feat abilities though, the feat remains indefinitely until you change it. This means that the Aegis is the only one who can actually spend the 10 minutes required to ready maneuvers granted by this ability (as opposed to just grabbing stances). Furthermore, Augmented Psychic Reformation works here as well, effectively giving the Aegis full access to the entire Path of War system.


Every one of those things I can do with a Beguiler and a couple of first party feats, and beguiler is hotly debated if it reaches tier 2 or tier 3. I can do all of them with an oracle or a sorcerer or shaman.

I know the aegis can do decent damage and deny a number of conditions. I don't think he's anywhere close to tier 1. How many of those can aegis hit. I'm really asking, I'm not an expert, but I think not many.

Do I think the Aegis is Tier 1? Hell no. But with the Host of Heroes Archetype and an Augmented Psychic Reformation, I honestly think that the Aegis is borderline Tier 2. Especially if Spheres is allowed.

[stack]

Getting blasting from SoP requires material from three 3pp publishers, so is only going to be an option in a very limited selection of games.

I don't know what was promised in that regard, but assuming the aegis can buy into being a low caster, with the right feats and a staff of destruction +5, it could toss out 22d6 AOE blasts plus a rider. I assume it will have a small spell point pool to draw from though, so this wouldn't be many times per day.

Pure speculation though.

[Kaouse]

The Aegis will never outdo an Inquisitor or Warlord in terms of damage,

Inquisitor I will only give you because of Named Bullet. Outside of that, I find it hard to believe that an Aegis with access to Akashic customizations like Armory of the Conqueror can't outdamage a Warlord. Especially if said Aegis is a Host of Heroes Aegis who dedicates 3 points into the Hierophant Monomyth to grab Channel Energy in order to take the Divine Essence Feat. For even more fun, the Aegis can also take Twin Veil and double up with a Weapon Veil in the Wrist Chakra. Pretty sure at that point a Vital Strike is gonna outdamage most full attacks or maneuvers.


or an Alchemist or Magus in terms of at-hand immunity.

I don't really know what you mean by this, but the Aegis can use Advanced Study to grab the Laughing Demilich Attitude stance from the Unquiet Grave discipline. Among other things, it grants undead immunities.

[Andor13]

Vizier, to give only one DSP example, can auto UMD items without using up charges, and doesn't crack Tier 2.

Out of curiosity, what's the justification for that? In theory Tier one is about power and versatility. A craftsman vizier has access to every single spell and power in the game. It requires more prep time and money than a wizard does, but there is literally nothing that a Wizard, or Cleric, or Psion can do that a vizier cannot. So why the lower rating?

[Kaouse]

Out of curiosity, what's the justification for that? In theory Tier one is about power and versatility. A craftsman vizier has access to every single spell and power in the game. It requires more prep time and money than a wizard does, but there is literally nothing that a Wizard, or Cleric, or Psion can do that a vizier cannot. So why the lower rating?

I think a lot of people don't want to include spell completion and spell trigger items in the tier rankings, though I have similar thoughts to you in the case of people who can use these items without consuming them, effectively making them no different than a wizard who buys access to new spells in their spellbook. That said, the cost of wands and staves to use the Vizier's Eldritch insight ability on is incredibly prohibitive though, even at high level. To really share the same versatility as a wizard, you'd basically need infinite wealth, at which point you're not much different from a Rogue who has maxed out their UMD.

[Khosan]

The Aegis will never outdo an Inquisitor or Warlord in terms of damage, or an Alchemist or Magus in terms of at-hand immunity.

I think I can disagree with the damage part, having played with an Aegis build myself that could pull some ludicrous numbers.

Basic build is Aegis 16/Dervish Defender Warder 4, making use of mostly Primal Fury/Thrashing Dragon maneuvers, the extra arms Astral Suit upgrades and Deadly Agility. Grab four finesse weapons (or just two and make the other two you need with Armory of the Sleeping Goddess), sit in Battle Mantra stance for the extra hit chance and go to town. Be a Tiefling or Ratfolk and you can add a bite attack or a tailblade attack in there. Warder isn't technically necessary (except for Primal Frenzy), but Int to AC, free TWF and Combat Reflexes and a second set of maneuvers known/readied at the cost of one feat (Student of the Astral Suit) is really hard to pass up.

The only maneuver you really need is Raging Hunter Pounce, but special mention goes to Primal Frenzy giving you one attack with each weapon you're holding against each enemy within range that deals an additional 6d6 damage (and is either a full attack or a standard action - the initiation action is listed as a standard, but the description calls it a full attack action). The extra attacks and ways to easily get full attacks really add up.

It's not the usual way Aegis is played, but I found it to be very effective. The main downside is you can't really afford to pick up the manifesting from Harness Power Stone, since you need 6 points invested into the Extra Arms line, at least 2 in Flight (more is fantastic), 2 points for Initiator's Soul and however many in Additional Maneuvers/Stances, and you probably want Psionic Damage, Augmented Weapon, Improved Damage and Reach to just beef up your melee attacks that little bit more on top of that.

[icefractal]

Buying a power stone once, not per use, is no different than a Wizard buying scrolls to scribe into their spellbook. Or simply buying the expensive material components that some spells require. At literally zero wealth, most T1 classes don't do so hot either.

As far as the list of capabilities - maybe for T1 you could claim that's a requirement, but not for T2. A given Sorcerer won't necessarily be able to do all that without scrolls either.

For that matter, I'm rather skeptical of "items don't count" as a criteria for the tier system.
"Ice Assassin is fine, Iajitsu Focus is cool too, but buying a flight-granting item is forbidden, you dirty munchkin!" - said no GM ever.

[Gnaeus]

It’s because specific gear is one of the most variable parts of the game.

Ice assassin may or may not be in play in a particular game. If it is, great (for the wizard). If it is, he can automatically take it for free at the appropriate level upon level up. If it isn’t, he is still T1 easily in core, so unless your houserules involve rewriting all the core broken spells, wizard can operate at a very high level of efficiency. Even if the DM allows it but says it is super rare, the wizard can just research it. There’s rules for that too.

And yes, icefractal, I have absolutely been in games where all sources were allowed, ice assassin was available, but there were no magic marts in places we could access.

Or the shops had limited inventory and you could only get what they had. I’ve been in games where with anything other than the most common stuff the DM would just roll for availability of spells and items. Which turned out way better for wizard than fighter because the wizard could make a list of 10 level 5 spells and be happy with any 3 he gets (and of course will fill in gaps upon levelup) while the fighter is wanting very specific gear and the alternatives are often less appealing or way more expensive. If the DM says this shop has no carpets, but they have wings of flying, and you have 30kgp, he may as well have said you can’t buy a flight item.

If your adventure takes place in WLD. Or on an island. Or around an isolated village, a muggle can’t just make themselves have a flight item. What if your games is one of those with way below WBL. I’ve seen that too. Your prior claim is just incorrect. All classes are hurt by low WBL. Or by randomized WBL (you get what you find or can make) but tier 1&2s are minimally affected, followed by 3s. Etc. the tier list is virtually a ranking of how well classes can be expected to work without specific gear.

Even in the worst case scenario. All your gear is gone. You have nothing or almost nothing, this plays out reasonably well. The wizard is pretty gimped without a spellbook (although there are multiple ways around that, if you think you are in a game where that is a possibility, all of which are way easier for wizards to access if they think they will need to than for a fighter to figure how to fight reasonable ECL stuff with no or little gear), but most of the high tiers operate just fine with nothing but a spell component pouch and divine focus. And in a no magic mart game they are likely to be able to craft what they need. Actually, Aegis does this pretty well also. They can get craft wondrous or arms and armor, which is pretty cool. What can’t they do? Craft power stones.

(Even here, as an aside, I’d almost always rather be a wizard with a found or rebuilt spellbook with lower op spells than something like a chain tripper who has lost his fancy adamantine spiked chain of xyz). Low tiers tend to not just need a weapon, but a specific weapon. Mid tiers like POW/TOB are more likely to just need a thing in their hands they can make strikes with.

Even worse for the Aegis? The power stones they want are third party. That means in a prepublished adventure or a game with random loot drops they will never appear, unless the GM goes out of his way to place them specifically for the Aegis. Needing DM mercy to be functional is a strong indication of weaker tiers.

[Andor13]

A (craftsman) Vizier is one of the best craftsmen in the game though, so I'm not sure how much gear dependency counts against them, especially given that they can generate 7 cost free wishes per day from a ring of wishes with a single charge left.

Aegis does not have access to power stones without a magic mart, it's true, although they have got to be the least gear dependent martial class in the game, since they can use their suit to do almost anything most martials need gear for, including pulling a magic weapon out of thin air with sleeping goddess maneuvers. I suppose you could take Student of the Astral Suit and dip into Rajah for the "Summon Demon Merchant" Heraldry.

[Seerow]

I love the Aegis, but the PoW upgrades for it were not well thought out. Yes the maneuver progression is worse than a mainline initiator, but it's pretty equivalent to anyone taking a martial archetype, such as the Fighter or Rogue. When those classes take the archetype, they get the same lower level limited maneuvers, but locked into a selection. Being able to pick up new maneuvers through customization points is just too much. Especially when you consider by mid level the Aegis can start doing things like pick up bonus customization points, or swap their customizations on the fly.

In my game I wound up removing the initiator customizations, and replacing it with an Archetype that gained a set initiating progression more in line with other non-initiating classes, at the cost of some of their other features.

[Kaouse]

I love the Aegis, but the PoW upgrades for it were not well thought out. Yes the maneuver progression is worse than a mainline initiator, but it's pretty equivalent to anyone taking a martial archetype, such as the Fighter or Rogue. When those classes take the archetype, they get the same lower level limited maneuvers, but locked into a selection. Being able to pick up new maneuvers through customization points is just too much. Especially when you consider by mid level the Aegis can start doing things like pick up bonus customization points, or swap their customizations on the fly.

In my game I wound up removing the initiator customizations, and replacing it with an Archetype that gained a set initiating progression more in line with other non-initiating classes, at the cost of some of their other features.

What do you mean when you say that the Aegis's ability to pick up new maneuvers through customization points is "too much," exactly?

[Andor13]

What do you mean when you say that the Aegis's ability to pick up new maneuvers through customization points is "too much," exactly?

Well, he has a point, An Aegis is unique amoung initiators in that he can change all his maneuvers from day to day, and can therefore can always get to whatever maneuver he wants in the most efficient way possible. He doesn't have to plan out his build to meet prerequisites for higher level maneuvers. Fighting ghosts? Load up on Silver Crane and Veiled Moon. Playing at intrigue at court? Swap out to Sleeping Goddess for mind reading shennanigans. Need to bring single target pain? Swarms? Healing? Broken Blade, Elemental Flux, and Radiant Dawn have you covered.

Any other initiator needs to make choices, and make most of them at 1st level, an Aegis doesn't.

Now, at higher levels they are going to pick up advanced training for access to 7+ level maneuvers, and at that point they need to maintain a maneuver tree that supports the feat, or lose access to them.

OTOH, flexibility is the Aegis's shtick. It's what they do, almost who they are. While Martial maneuvers are one of the most efficient ways an Aegis can spend points, they still don't get that many to spend. And their recovery sucks. An Aegis can, barely, compete with a proper initiating class, but it's at the cost of almost everything else they could do.

[zergling.exe]

Guys, this thread is over a year and a half old, let it be dead.