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Kel_Arath
2007-07-21, 08:01 PM
I don't get why it seems that everyone in these forums all but hate samurai. What is it that makes people find them so bad? I know there are classes that I will put down and say how useless ability A is or something like that, but people are saying (or use to say) that samurai are the worst class in the game, below warrior. Or that one of the most useless things you can do is give the party a samurai, etc.
Personaly I like samurai, if not for being the expected 350% combat effective (thought they are quite effective in combat) that everyone needs around here, they are nice for flavor and such.

Tor the Fallen
2007-07-21, 08:05 PM
Why not play fighter and role play the fluff?

MeklorIlavator
2007-07-21, 08:11 PM
they are nice for flavor and such.
That's it in a nut shell. The only thing that they can really do is present pre-made fluff, erroneous fluff at that. Their intimidate ability doesn't work on most things you fight because of the hit-dice restriction, or if it does, it doesn't change the outcome. Add that to a misrepresentation of the samurai as someone who dual-wields and intimidates, when they actually had the Wasaki as a reserve blade, not as a main weapon, and that they were often mounted bowmen, and you can easily see the reason for the resentment it provokes.

Xuincherguixe
2007-07-21, 08:27 PM
Samurai themselves? Not so much a problem. Samurai class? Poorly done.

Caelestion
2007-07-21, 08:29 PM
The Complete Warrior samurai is pointless. It's a Westernised bawdlerisation of a theme done so much better in Oriental Adventures and Rokugan.

Inyssius Tor
2007-07-21, 08:29 PM
The samurai is weaker than the warrior, especially if he tries to use any of his class abilities.


It's in the Complete Warrior.

It's an exaggeration to say they're as weak as commoners, but they are one of the weakest classes to grace the game. The only class features they get that are at all worth having are free exotic proficiency with bastard swords and two-weapon fighting. Unfortunately, he has no source of bonus damage, so this is more of a hindrance than a boon. Improved initiative, at eighth, is useful enough. He also gains quickdraw at fifth, but how often are you going to need that?

Kiai Smite allows him to add his charisma to attack and damage. Not terrible, but not enough uses per day to be all that useful.

He gets some others which are based on his ability to frighten enemies. These abilities form the bulk of the samurai's effectiveness, and they ultimately fall flat.

Staredown, mass staredown, and improved staredown are ways to use intimidate, essentially. You gain a bonus to the skill, and can eventually demoralize several opponents at once. For the cost of a standard action (a move action once you gain improved staredown at 14th). Making your enemies shaken is nice, I suppose, but as you go up in levels, the hit dice of most creatures rises faster than their CR. Unless you're only fighting humanoids with low to average wisdom, this is utterly not worthwhile.

At level twenty, you gain frightful presence. You can panic creatures with four hit dice or less (oh, joy). You can make creatures with up to nineteen hit dice shaken. Creatures with twenty hit dice or more are unaffected. So, pretty much anything that has a CR equal to your level is immune to your capstone ability.

That's the samurai. A few minor benefits, nearly all of which can be gained through fighter bonus feats, and some absolute dreck abilities that are almost never useful. A samurai is better than a commoner, but not much above a warrior. A level twenty samurai vs. a level twenty warrior would be a pretty close fight. The only real advantages the samurai would have are slightly more hit points (d10 rather than d8) and improved initiative. Assuming the warrior used a greatsword, and the samurai used his two weapons, the warrior would pull right ahead.

Superglucose
2007-07-21, 09:18 PM
The Samurai is like the paladin, in that it uses charisma for stuff. But unlike the paladin, instead of spells it gets the ability to frighten stuff a fifth his level. Unlike the really cool mount, he gets... um... improved initiative? Instead of the really useful bonus to all saves, he gets... two... weapon... fighting... and a bonus exotic proficiency...

I compare it to the Paladin, because I always thought that Paladins (though they have to be 'good' in DnD) were the western equivalent to samurai: order, honor based warriors who were in the upper castes and had lots of money.

Inyssius Tor
2007-07-21, 09:27 PM
Hey now, that's being unfair. You should say "Instead of the really useful bonus to all saves, he gets... two-weapon fighting with two specific weapons... and a bonus exotic proficiency... while two-weapon fighting... "

Anxe
2007-07-22, 12:27 AM
Wait. People don't think the Samurai is the best thing since mini-gundams? What's wrong with you people! My favorite thing to terrorize my party with is Samurai. They whop serious butt.

ZeroNumerous
2007-07-22, 12:49 AM
Wait. People don't think the Samurai is the best thing since mini-gundams? What's wrong with you people! My favorite thing to terrorize my party with is Samurai. They whop serious butt.

I love sarcasm.

Belteshazzar
2007-07-22, 12:59 AM
Well personally I dislike all the myriad needless classes anyway (They should be flexible archetypes not job descriptions) The only thing they have going for them is a ridiculously useless Intimidation ability and that could be replaced by a single feat with some prerequisites.
Besides why does Japan get all the 'unique' classes like ninja, monk, or samurai. When will they release an African themed class like Manasi Huntsman or some such?

TheOOB
2007-07-22, 01:01 AM
Keep in mind that a CW samurai using two-weapons (the default style for them) facing an equal level power attacking warrior with a two-handed weapon is actually at a disadvantage.

In addition the samurai has virtually no samurai flavor, only a few samurai in history used two swords.

Yechezkiel
2007-07-22, 01:01 AM
For me, it was Samurai Jack (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samurai_jack). I hate it almost as much as that movie A.I.

TheOOB
2007-07-22, 01:04 AM
If you want to play samurai, play a diamond mind/iron heart warblade, all the flavor, none of the suck.

AslanCross
2007-07-22, 01:08 AM
I used to think the Samurai class was cool and that the haters just hated it because they were Western purists.

After reading ToB and this thread, I realize how much it actually sucks. Thank you, previous posters. I am enlightened. Now excuse me while I redesign some of my villain NPCs.

Xuincherguixe
2007-07-22, 01:10 AM
I think one thing that helps with Chinese and Japanese themed prestige classes is that it's not that much of a stretch to get them into a D&D game.

That being said? It'd be great if they had some more prestige classes from something else.

Turcano
2007-07-22, 01:19 AM
Besides why does Japan get all the 'unique' classes like ninja, monk, or samurai. When will they release an African themed class like Manasi Huntsman or some such?

It'll happen the day nerds stop watching anime and Africa is no longer The Land No One Cares About.

TheOOB
2007-07-22, 01:22 AM
Themed base classes are fairly unnecessary. combat is abstract enough where different styles can be well represented by the core classes.

That said, japan is popular because a)they are an ever growing media giant, and b)the age of samurai and ninja was fairly recent when compared to many medieval settings.

Xuincherguixe
2007-07-22, 01:25 AM
It'll happen the day nerds stop watching anime and Africa is no longer The Land No One Cares About.

Or, someone makes an Anime about Africa.

Skjaldbakka
2007-07-22, 01:26 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anxe
Wait. People don't think the Samurai is the best thing since mini-gundams? What's wrong with you people! My favorite thing to terrorize my party with is Samurai. They whop serious butt.

I love sarcasm.

Actually, a CW samuria, regardless of the BAD FLUFF, can make an effective antagonist- all their class features require that the enemy be lower hit die, which the party will almost always qualify for. That being said, I've played a CW samurai, and, he was the best character in the game. Now this was because of a number of things: The DM catered to the kind of encounters a CW samurai is least useless against, I had the best stats in the game
(18,17,15,15,14,13- this character is the reason I use Point Buy as a DM), my lowest HP roll was a 7, and I was the most experienced player.

Talya
2007-07-22, 01:29 AM
Note that OA samurai is not bad. It's the CW samurai that sucks so terribly.

Yechezkiel
2007-07-22, 01:33 AM
Note that OA samurai is not bad. It's the CW samurai that sucks so terribly.

Very true. Especially in an ALL OA setting, not randomly mixed into other pots.

TheOOB
2007-07-22, 01:36 AM
Though the OA samurai still isn't all that great, they lose the sheer quanity and versatility of fighter feats for the ability to enchant something that is likely worse then what a fighter can afford at equal level (remember greater magic weapon peeps), and it forces them to use their daisho, when many samurai used bows, polearms, and what not.

Cryopyre
2007-07-22, 01:49 AM
I personally would prefer to multiclass a monk/fighter or monk/paladin to get a samurai. I MIGHT throw in Kiai Strike for a trade in on some other ability.

ZeroNumerous
2007-07-22, 02:01 AM
(remember greater magic weapon peeps)

Actually you're pretty wrong there. Once you get the base +1, any other +X can be used to buy abilities rather than straight +X to damage. Greater Magic Weapon applies to OA Samurai as well.

Further: Fighter kinda.. sorta.. you know.. sucks. I don't need to go any more indepth to explain why it's better to be an OA Samurai than a Fighter.

TheOOB
2007-07-22, 02:10 AM
Actually you're pretty wrong there. Once you get the base +1, any other +X can be used to buy abilities rather than straight +X to damage. Greater Magic Weapon applies to OA Samurai as well.

Further: Fighter kinda.. sorta.. you know.. sucks. I don't need to go any more indepth to explain why it's better to be an OA Samurai than a Fighter.

Acually you do, a fighter with well choosen feats can do loads of damage and get loads of attacks a turn and trip and or disarm any opponent who gets near them, how does getting a free magic weapon at the expense of less feats and a much smaller list to choose thouse feats from make the samurai better?

Remember, an well built fighter can be just as good if not better then a warblade.

JaxGaret
2007-07-22, 02:15 AM
Remember, an well built fighter can be just as good if not better then a warblade.

I'm pretty sure that a well built Warblade > well built Fighter.

At least in terms of strict overall party-usefulness.

Dhavaer
2007-07-22, 05:47 AM
OA Samurai get a good Will save and 4+Int skill points. That is, I think, worth 6 feats, particularly when two of those feats are heavy armour proficiency and shield proficiency.

Caelestion
2007-07-22, 06:00 AM
Why does everyone insist that a class is crap if they can't use Greater Magic Weapon? I could think of many other 4th-level spells I'd rather cast and I'm sure that if I'm the weapon-user, the wizard in the party probably thinks the same.

ZeroNumerous
2007-07-22, 08:12 AM
how does getting a free magic weapon at the expense of less feats and a much smaller list to choose those feats from make the samurai better?

Because everything useful the Fighter can choose, so can the Samurai. Further, the Fighter ends his advancement at level 4. Beyond that, Fighter is just a dead class. You get three whole feats at 4th before you must choose a different class that isn't useless. OA Samurai? He can go to 10th, then into any of the very useful Rokugan PrCs.

Morty
2007-07-22, 08:37 AM
Because everything useful the Fighter can choose, so can the Samurai. Further, the Fighter ends his advancement at level 4. Beyond that, Fighter is just a dead class. You get three whole feats at 4th before you must choose a different class that isn't useless. OA Samurai? He can go to 10th, then into any of the very useful Rokugan PrCs.

Now that's and exagerration. Fighter starts being "dead" class after 10th level, before then he just isn't as strong as well-built barbarian or warblade.

Talya
2007-07-22, 08:42 AM
Now that's and exagerration. Fighter starts being "dead" class after 10th level, before then he just isn't as strong as well-built barbarian or warblade.

No, the fighter starts being a dead class by level 4, because you could always be better by multiclassing him into alternate base classes or PRCs by that point. (And some would argue that this happens after level 2.)

The OA samurai does not suffer from this problem...the class is decent all around.

And whoever said a well built fighter equals a warblade...just no. (Although, like so many melee classes, a warblade can certainly benefit from those 2 levels of fighter...)

Morty
2007-07-22, 08:45 AM
No, the fighter starts being a dead class by level 4, because you could always be better by multiclassing him into alternate base classes or PRCs by that point. (And some would argue that this happens after level 2.)

True, but you can still advance as fighter and pull your own weight, especially as battlefield control fighter and with splatbooks. After 10 level, you're quite literally out of feats, but before then it's not that bad.

Pilum
2007-07-22, 10:55 AM
Just to go a bit off topic, but if you don't mind trawling through ebay, or assorted internet archives, Dragon ran a couple of articles around playing in African settings in the early - mid 200's, I think it was. Obviously you'd have to adapt the kits to 3.5, but that's scarcely beyond the wit of man.

Matthew
2007-07-22, 11:33 AM
Oh yeah, I remember those articles. They were quite interesting, but not enough to build a setting from.

Fighter can pretty much represent any 'historical' type class you want it to .

The [I]Complete Warrior Samurai is mechanically low powered and fluff wise is ridiculous. The Oriental Adventures Samurai is much better and about equal with or slightly more powerful than the Fighter, but not as versatile.

Niether Fighter or War Blade are ever going to be as good as a Full Spell Caster at high levels, so it is kind of moot whether War Blades are better than Fighters at high levels, unless you're playing without Spell Casters.

Still, the main problem with using a War Blade as a Samurai is their lack of Proficiency with Ranged Weapons and Heavy Armour; also, Ride is not a Class Skill for them. All of which pretty much sucks if you want to be a Heavily Armoured and Mounted Samurai with a Bow [i.e. a fairly typical Samurai].

Zeta Kai
2007-07-22, 11:41 AM
Actually, a CW samuria, regardless of the BAD FLUFF, can make an effective antagonist- all their class features require that the enemy be lower hit die, which the party will almost always qualify for. That being said, I've played a CW samurai, and, he was the best character in the game. Now this was because of a number of things: The DM catered to the kind of encounters a CW samurai is least useless against, I had the best stats in the game
(18,17,15,15,14,13- this character is the reason I use Point Buy as a DM), my lowest HP roll was a 7, and I was the most experienced player.

Yeah, that may be true, but with those advantages, you could have been a Commoner & still done well. I'm not saying that the Samurai has to suck (I also like the one from OA). But if your DM favors your class, you have very good stats, you roll your HP well, & your an experienced player, than your class is somewhat irrelevant.

Kami2awa
2007-07-22, 11:43 AM
Just to go a bit off topic, but if you don't mind trawling through ebay, or assorted internet archives, Dragon ran a couple of articles around playing in African settings in the early - mid 200's, I think it was. Obviously you'd have to adapt the kits to 3.5, but that's scarcely beyond the wit of man.

A very large number of people write campaigns in settings based on Ancient Egypt, which is in Africa. A great part of Arabian Nights-based settings draws on North African culture.

Yuki Akuma
2007-07-22, 11:51 AM
A very large number of people write campaigns in settings based on Ancient Egypt, which is in Africa. A great part of Arabian Nights-based settings draws on North African culture.

For some reason, when people say "Africa", they tend to think of it as one big country, and not a continent. And in this mythical Africa, everyone has pitch-black skin and lives in the jungle.

Diggorian
2007-07-22, 12:06 PM
Related to the deficiences of the Samurai class itself, I'd think some of the hate comes from shelling out $30 for a new supplement book but only getting say $25 in value. Folks buy the book for more options, yet in many respects as mentioned above CW Samurai isnt a good one.

Ulzgoroth
2007-07-22, 12:26 PM
For some reason, when people say "Africa", they tend to think of it as one big country, and not a continent. And in this mythical Africa, everyone has pitch-black skin and lives in the jungle.
Perhaps. But to be a bit more generous, when someone says 'Africa' without any further referents they're probably thinking about sub-Saharan Africa. Which at least has areas loosely like that, though it certainly has plenty of non-jungle.

PlatinumJester
2007-07-22, 12:47 PM
Just play a fighter with the Weapon focus and Weapon Specialisation (bastard sword) feats. I would rather get loads of feats instead of Kiai Smite (which you could just get from high ranks in intimidation).

cupkeyk
2007-07-22, 01:04 PM
I recommend the Samurai for a one level dip to gain exotic weapon proficiency (Bastard Sword) and diplomacy, ride and concentration, making it an excellent entry point for an exotic weapon master/ kensai.

Quirinus_Obsidian
2007-07-22, 01:11 PM
If you want to play samurai, play a diamond mind/iron heart warblade, all the flavor, none of the suck.

My thoughts exactly. Look at :miko: ; she is a Monk/Paladin; according to the "optimizers" that has to be close to the worst possible thing; but that is not the point. She had the title of Samurai; it is a title not a class. That is why there is no need for the new samurai class. I do not have the Oriental Adventures books, so I do not know how it was done in that series.

Jerthanis
2007-07-22, 01:21 PM
It'll happen the day nerds stop watching anime and Africa is no longer The Land No One Cares About.

You know... I've taken about 4 or 5 world history classes in my life, and not a single one taught me even the most basic geography or modern history of Africa. The most I learned was that Ancient Egyptians existed, that Carthage and Rome had a long rivalry and a few wars, and eventually Rome stomped Carthage into nonexistence. For the purposes of all the classes which touched on American slavery, the African slaves might as well have spawned out of nothing in Charleston bay. I had to get my parents to explain about Nelson Mandela and Apartheid. To be fair though, I only know about Asia because America's had wars in and around every country there, and I probably know even less about South America, but American schools REALLY only focus on Europe's history and America's wars when it's purportedly a "world history" class. If anything, I'd expect this deficiency is a big reason why there aren't a lot of material being produced about Africa for the average American... because we don't know anything about it!

In any case... I played a Samurai once. He wasn't THAT bad, but he also had wings, flyby attack, and Powerful Charge, and was in a party with a Healer, so anything would seem at least effective compared to the healer. The thing about Samurai is that Charisma is only useful for two of its abilities, the smite of dubious use and the demoralize ability of almost certain uselessness. When it comes down to it, the points you'd spend on charisma in point buy would be better used pumping your strength and constitution more, so you'd have a static +1 to hit and damage, or +1 HP/HD rather than smiting for a minor bonus, and wasting your time trying to give people tiny hit penalties at the expense of your action.

Matthew
2007-07-22, 01:31 PM
My thoughts exactly. Look at :miko: ; she is a Monk/Paladin; according to the "optimizers" that has to be close to the worst possible thing; but that is not the point. She had the title of Samurai; it is a title not a class. That is why there is no need for the new samurai class. I do not have the Oriental Adventures books, so I do not know how it was done in that series.
Well, the same could be said about the Knight Base Class, but at least that doesn't mechanically suck. If the Complete Warrior Samurai was renamed the 'Student of Miyomoto Musashi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miyamoto_Musashi)' the flavour might be slightly less annoying, but it would still be one of the worst mechanical Base Classes available.

That said, I would tend to agree that there are other Base Classes that would do a much better job of representing a 'Samurai' (of whatever persuasion).

horseboy
2007-07-22, 04:54 PM
You know... I've taken about 4 or 5 world history classes in my life, and not a single one taught me even the most basic geography or modern history of Africa. The most I learned was that Ancient Egyptians existed, that Carthage and Rome had a long rivalry and a few wars, and eventually Rome stomped Carthage into nonexistence. For the purposes of all the classes which touched on American slavery, the African slaves might as well have spawned out of nothing in Charleston bay. I had to get my parents to explain about Nelson Mandela and Apartheid. To be fair though, I only know about Asia because America's had wars in and around every country there, and I probably know even less about South America, but American schools REALLY only focus on Europe's history and America's wars when it's purportedly a "world history" class. If anything, I'd expect this deficiency is a big reason why there aren't a lot of material being produced about Africa for the average American... because we don't know anything about it!

Well, geography of Africa was covered in my geography class, not really a history subject. Neither is Mandela and Apartheid. That was covered in contemporary issues classes. Why don't they talk more about Africa? Political Correctness restraints. Why do they not teach more about Asia? Well, because it's SO hard to get information from that part of the world. If the countries won't let information out, how are the writers going to put it into history books? This is a lot of the problem the Samauri have. BoW seems to be based more off of the Musashie Miyamoto movies coming on the Kung Fu channel tonight. It's not like the game developers have any sort of historical qualifications to their job. If that's all they know of Samurai, then that's what they're going to model them after.

Thexare Blademoon
2007-07-22, 07:25 PM
Niether Fighter or War Blade are ever going to be as good as a Full Spell Caster at high levels, so it is kind of moot whether War Blades are better than Fighters at high levels, unless you're playing without Spell Casters.
I fail to see how it's moot. I doubt most games are played with full parties of full casters.

Matthew
2007-07-22, 07:30 PM
Well, because by the time it matters that War Blades and such are significantly more powerful than Fighters, Full Spell Casters are making everbody look bad. Unless you are addressing their power as well, it's pointless to say 'War Blades are better than Fighters at high levels, so they make a better choice for representing Samurai' or whatever (even if you do it's not really a valid argument unless you engineer things so that all Base Classes available are similar to the power level of the War Blade).

Raistlin1040
2007-07-22, 07:30 PM
Use the OA samurai. SOOOOOOOO much better.

Draz74
2007-07-22, 10:28 PM
If you want to play samurai, play a diamond mind/iron heart warblade, all the flavor, none of the suck.

Hmmm. Needs dips into Devoted Spirit and White Raven too. In fact, some Samurai would probably be better as Crusaders than Warblades.

I mean, Iron Guard's Glare stance? Daunting Strike? Leading the Attack strike?

Oh, and to those who are saying that the Warblade isn't really better than the Fighter, because at the levels where it matters, the full casters are better anyway?

True, but at least the Warblade is good enough to make a difference in CR-appropriate encounters, even without being as good as the full casters. The fighter isn't (depending on the encounter).

Dausuul
2007-07-22, 11:27 PM
True, but at least the Warblade is good enough to make a difference in CR-appropriate encounters, even without being as good as the full casters. The fighter isn't (depending on the encounter).

Indeed. Going by CR, fighters are underpowered. Casters are overpowered. Warblades are just about right.

Matthew
2007-07-22, 11:53 PM
Oh, and to those who are saying that the Warblade isn't really better than the Fighter, because at the levels where it matters, the full casters are better anyway?

True, but at least the Warblade is good enough to make a difference in CR-appropriate encounters, even without being as good as the full casters. The fighter isn't (depending on the encounter).

Hmmn, not quite what I mean. Here's how I see it:

Levels 1-5 - Fighters, War Blades and Spell Casters more or less even
Levels 6-10 - Fighters not so great, War Blades better, Spell Casters a bit ahead
Levels 11+ - Spell Casters leave everyone in the dust.

So to begin with it's level dependent.

Secondly, there are things Fighters can do better than War Blades, such as use Ranged Weapons, Ride Horses and wear Heavy Armour. War Blades can learn to do these things eventually.

The point was that whilst War Blades are more powerful than Fighters past point X, that is not a valid reason to choose them over Fighters to represent Samurai in general. Saying that, there are Samurai Archetypes that they model well, and the same could be said for the Knight Base Class.

Neek
2007-07-23, 12:01 AM
The Master Samurai PrC in Sword and First isn't a bad choice either, not compared to the Samurai base class in CoWa. I mean, looking at the Samurai class here... you get d12 hit die, Great Cleave and Supreme Cleave... ki strikes, as well. Has a very different flavor than the CoWa one either--and weirdly enough, the katana/wakizashi style is not accounted for anywhere. But it is a PrC from 3.0.

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-07-23, 12:22 AM
I am sorry, but there is no way in hell a Fighter can take on an equal level Warblade. It just won't happen, unless the Warblade has unbelievabally horrid luck and the Fighter can't roll anything less than a 15. Even without a single maneuver, the extra hit points alone makes him more likely to survive a typical fight. And once you throw in the maneuvers and stances, the fighter hasn't got a chance. At low levels, the extra hit points are more powerful, at later levels, the Warblade can just exterminate the Fighter in one round, with no chance for the Fighter to do anything.

1st level stance: Punishing Stance. Do +1d6 damage, and take a -2 on AC. With a greatsword, you're now doing 3d6 damage... with a medium size character... at level 1.

Once you get up to 3rd level...Emerald Razor... now your attacks are touch attacks for this round, so go ahead and blow the 3 BAB on PA for an extra 6 damage, you're going to be negating his armor AC anyways. One hit kill. Oh, and Wall of Blades... your attack roll becomes your new AC, so he can't hit you. This is a Counter, so you can pop it when he hits you to keep him from hitting you. This keeps you alive if he goes first.

From there, it just gets more rediculous. Sorry, Warblade just has way too damn many things he can do to royally screw over a fighter. Plus more hit points, more skill points, and maneuvers... well worth the 6 feats he don't get. Of course, if he dips Fighter2, he'll only loose 4 feats total... and all the maneuvers he gets makes it well worth it and then some.

Jack Mann
2007-07-23, 12:48 AM
Eh, an archer could potentially take out the warblade, if he started far enough away. But in melee? Not likely to happen, unless the fighter's player is much better than the warblade's player. Now, a barbarian might be able to take the warblade out.

Still, the main thing isn't how a warblade would do against the barbarian or the fighter. It's how the warblade does against the various encounters a DM is likely to send against him, and that's where the warblade really shines above the PHB melee classes.

Rachel Lorelei
2007-07-23, 12:59 AM
Not entirely true. A Fighter can be built in such a way as to slaughter an approximately equal-level humanoid melee opponent like the Warblade--presuming the Warblade isn't using a similar setup or tactics. Still, what JackMann says about encounters rather than fighting each other is very much the case.

*offers JackMann a cookie armadillo*

Artemician
2007-07-23, 05:21 AM
Regarding Fighter vs Warblade:

A Fighter can basically slaughter a Warblade of his level. It's not that hard. A Shock Trooper/Leap Attack Fighter puts out amounts of damage so ridiculous, that basically nothing survives. Even more so if he dips barbarian for pounce.

There was someone at the Wizards boards who did number crunching, and tragically, the Warblade's damage was found to be worse then an Barbarian of the equavilent level. At all levels.

However, the Warblade is considered superior to the Fighter not because it is more powerful, but because it is more useful. A Fighter can slaughter things.. if he gets a full-round action to charge the opponent. And not die from spells requiring Will saves. A Warblade is useful in a lot more situations, and that is why it is better.

Bosh
2007-07-23, 06:15 AM
Well it really depends on what books you use. A Core only fighter and a fighter that can use all splat-books and min-maxes the hell out of his feat selection are very different beasts. With **** like Shock Trooper and Leap attack fighters can pull their own weight, the problem is that such builds are one trick ponies that are horrifically boring to play. They either one hit kill things or are almost completely useless.

Tengu
2007-07-23, 07:35 AM
A Fighter can basically slaughter a Warblade of his level. It's not that hard. A Shock Trooper/Leap Attack Fighter puts out amounts of damage so ridiculous, that basically nothing survives. Even more so if he dips barbarian for pounce.


What exactly stops the Warblade from taking this combo too? And doesn't he have some maneuvers that could easily render it useless?

Matthew
2007-07-23, 08:00 AM
1st level stance: Punishing Stance. Do +1d6 damage, and take a -2 on AC. With a greatsword, you're now doing 3d6 damage... with a medium size character... at level 1.

Umm. What's the big deal about that? Lose two points of Armour Class for +1D6 Damage Bonus. Sounds like a fairly even trade off to me and not much of a benefit at the early levels when enemies generally have four or five Hit Points.


What exactly stops the Warblade from taking this combo too? And doesn't he have some maneuvers that could easily render it useless?

Nothing, though he has to wait until War Blade 9 to get access.

ZeroNumerous
2007-07-23, 08:54 AM
Nothing, though he has to wait until War Blade 9 to get access.

Oh he does now? Warblade 6. That gives him five feats if he's human, four if he's not. So he takes: Exotic Weapon Prof: Spiked Chain, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Improved Disarm, and finally Stand Still. He picks up the maneuver's Disarming Strike and Emerald Razor.

These are all Fighter bonus feats. With his ECL 6 gold, he buys a potion of Enlarge Person.

He then readies an action to trip the Fighter the moment he enters his threatened area.

Guess what? He's just rendered a Charging-Fighter completely useless as he trips, attacks the fighter with his free-attack from Improved Trip, then uses his turn to disarm the fighter. After that, it's "Ready Action versus Charge". Everytime he trips the fighter, he burns a swift-action to attack and recover his maneuvers.

Thats at ECL 6, two levels into Dead Fighter. If you go higher, you're only running out of chances to win.

ALOR
2007-07-23, 09:00 AM
Just to go a bit off topic, but if you don't mind trawling through ebay, or assorted internet archives, Dragon ran a couple of articles around playing in African settings in the early - mid 200's, I think it was. Obviously you'd have to adapt the kits to 3.5, but that's scarcely beyond the wit of man.

To continue being of topic for a moment, thier was an independent company that released and "african adeventures" campaign setting for 3.0. It was "muabwi" or something like that. I remember seeing it at half priced books. I looked through it breifly but not long enough to say wether it is was a good setting or not. i just hadn't seen anyone mention it so i thought i would.
I really don't have much to add to the "Smaurai sucking" debate. I've never played one. If i had the notion i would agree that the OA version is much better
happy gaming

Matthew
2007-07-23, 09:29 AM
Oh he does now? Warblade 6. That gives him five feats if he's human, four if he's not. So he takes: Exotic Weapon Prof: Spiked Chain, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Improved Disarm, and finally Stand Still. He picks up the maneuver's Disarming Strike and Emerald Razor.

These are all Fighter bonus feats. With his ECL 6 gold, he buys a potion of Enlarge Person.

He then readies an action to trip the Fighter the moment he enters his threatened area.

Guess what? He's just rendered a Charging-Fighter completely useless as he trips, attacks the fighter with his free-attack from Improved Trip, then uses his turn to disarm the fighter. After that, it's "Ready Action versus Charge". Everytime he trips the fighter, he burns a swift-action to attack and recover his maneuvers.

Thats at ECL 6, two levels into Dead Fighter. If you go higher, you're only running out of chances to win.

You are misquoting/reading me. I said a War Blade has to wait until Level 9 to get access to the Leap Attack/Shock Trooper combination, not that he couldn't stop it.

Tengu
2007-07-23, 09:30 AM
stuff

This is a valid tactic, but you missed the point. Matthew said that Warblade needs to have level 9 to gain access to the Shock Trooper/Leap Attack combo.

Diggorian
2007-07-23, 09:32 AM
To continue being of topic for a moment, thier was an independent company that released and "african adeventures" campaign setting for 3.0. It was "muabwi" or something like that. I remember seeing it at half priced books.

Off topic: Atlas Games has out Nyambe (http://www.atlas-games.com/nyambe/index.php), a D20 game of African fantasy for free.

Still Off topic: When I proposed the Warblade class to my DM we matched it against an equal fighter (only difference was class) and they came out at about even in 10 encounters. So I got to multiclass my fighter into warblade.

On topic: Samurai are hated because they're Fighters dressed up in Japanese armor with less versatility. This isnt what folks paid for when buying complete Warrior.

ZeroNumerous
2007-07-23, 09:35 AM
This is a valid tactic, but you missed the point. Matthew said that Warblade needs to have level 9 to gain access to the Shock Trooper/Leap Attack combo.

In all honesty, he doesn't need Shock Trooper. Leap Attack/Power Attack with Soaring Dragon Stance. Attack using Emerald Razor. It becomes a Touch Attack, which removes most, if not all, of the defenses a warblade would need to get around. Thus, he's able to full Power Attack without losing AC.

Jerthanis
2007-07-23, 09:36 AM
One thing I like about the ToB classes is that they make previously stupid builds a bit more viable. I'm going to play a Two-Katar fighting Warblade1or2/SwordsageX in an upcoming game, and if this were a Fighter or Ranger type, I'd be doing as close to zero damage as you can come, with no hope of any real extra damage until I get magic Katars. A rogue would also be appropriate, but I just finished playing another rogue that I don't think I could top, so I wanted something different.

Also, Warblades are neat, but aside from certain maneuvers, they maintain some of the worst problems of Fighters, and some to greater extent. Fighters have trouble closing on high level enemies to get in their full attacks, Warblades have similar troubles. Ranged attacks almost never meet or match the damage potential of melee combat, but are sometimes extremely useful to have... Warblades have little to no capability of ranged attacks without that Bloodslinger, master of the nonsensical boomerangs PrC or whatever it's called. Still, it DOES seem overwhelming in the ways Warblade is good on paper. I haven't done comprehensive testing, but part of the reason I'm jumping from Warblade into Swordsage is because Warblade seemed a bit too good, with their capacity to wear heavy armor without losing abilities, their speedy refreshing of maneuvers, their superior HP, their qualifying for fighter-only feats, and their rad special abilities. As it is, I would've gone straight Swordsage if I had been able to qualify for Weapon Finesse at 1st level. (stupid +1 bab requirement!)

In my opinion, the Warblade flavor can fill the Samurai flavor as well as Fighter can, and as well as the CW Samurai class can. I've played ninja-flavored Rogues with no complaint before, and seen Clerics played with druidic nature reverence (and for that matter, I've seen Clerics who were indistinguishable from rogues, fighters, librarians... Cleric has insanely versatile flavor and RP opportunities) So really, in my opinion, Mechanics should suit the type of character you want to play, but are entirely separate entity from your actual character's flavor. Put four Samurai (of the same lord) in a room and they'll get along, even if one's a fighter with mounted archery, another is a CW samurai with his two swords, the third is a Paladin who stands as a guardian in perfect trust of his Lord, and the last is a Diamond Mind/Iron Heart Warblade who has spent his entire life journeying from secluded monastery to secluded monastery, seeking to create the ultimate style. Differing mechanics should never sift apart similar flavor.

Matthew
2007-07-23, 09:46 AM
In all honesty, he doesn't need Shock Trooper. Leap Attack/Power Attack with Soaring Dragon Stance. Attack using Emerald Razor. It becomes a Touch Attack, which removes most, if not all, of the defenses a warblade would need to get around. Thus, he's able to full Power Attack without losing AC.

Emerald Razor is a Standard Action to Initiate. Leap Attack requires a Charge Action. Soaring Dragon Stance I have never heard of, but if you mean Leaping Dragon Stance it wouldn't help you out in this situation either, as it is not a Charge Action.

Battle Leader's Charge is a good alternative.

Kioran
2007-07-23, 09:53 AM
In my opinion, the Warblade flavor can fill the Samurai flavor as well as Fighter can, and as well as the CW Samurai class can. I've played ninja-flavored Rogues with no complaint before, and seen Clerics played with druidic nature reverence (and for that matter, I've seen Clerics who were indistinguishable from rogues, fighters, librarians... Cleric has insanely versatile flavor and RP opportunities) So really, in my opinion, Mechanics should suit the type of character you want to play, but are entirely separate entity from your actual character's flavor. Put four Samurai (of the same lord) in a room and they'll get along, even if one's a fighter with mounted archery, another is a CW samurai with his two swords, the third is a Paladin who stands as a guardian in perfect trust of his Lord, and the last is a Diamond Mind/Iron Heart Warblade who has spent his entire life journeying from secluded monastery to secluded monastery, seeking to create the ultimate style. Differing mechanics should never sift apart similar flavor.

This is true - as long as the mechanics can be adjusted to fit whatever it is youīre playing, itīs okay. Another thing is group balance, and if you have such a diverse group, it pays to pay some attention to that. If you donīt, the CW Samu, the Pali and the Fighter will feel miffed if they donīt have access to incredible amounts of Splatbooks to twink themselves. I donīt like ToB because it was balanced for 3.87 instead of 3.5 (3.87 = 3.5 plus insane amounts of splatbooks), and I just donīt like the increase in power level. At all.

The problem with a Samurai class is that the Samurai were much to diverse and specialised to fit under just one mantle - except maybe Fighter (with 4 Skill points, not 2, and a decent skill list).

ZeroNumerous
2007-07-23, 09:57 AM
Emerald Razor is a Standard Action to Initiate. Leap Attack requires a Charge Action. Soaring Dragon Stance I have never heard of, but if you mean Leaping Dragon Stance it wouldn't help you out in this situation either, as it is not a Charge Action.

Battle Leader's Charge is a good alternative.

Leaping Dragon. I knew Soaring Dragon was wrong, but it was the only thing I remembered off the top of my head. It was there for auto-succeeding on the Jump Check. (+18)

Further, it still works. Partial-charge is only your move, but who cares when you're performing that Jump(+18 is alot).

The attack round would go like this:

Standard action: Initiate Emerald Razor
Move action: Charge. At the end of your charge, you make your single melee attack. During the charge, you jump to activate Leap Attack. Power Attack for full, since this one attack is going to be a touch attack.

Of course, the problem is that Pounce is no longer viable. But in all honesty, it doesn't matter until you get Raging Mongoose/Dancing Mongoose.

Artemician
2007-07-23, 10:05 AM
But the thing is, with all those fancy manuever's you're still dealing roughly the same damage as a charging PowerAttacking fighter in the end.

Not that that's a bad thing, of course; being able to actually do things when not Charging/Full Attacking is great. ToB does not add Power, it adds Versatility. While power level remains the same, overall effectiveness increases, due to an increase in areas where the Warblade can strut his stuff. Which is awesome.

However, the humble Fighter is not as bad as you claim, stop belittling it.

ZeroNumerous
2007-07-23, 10:09 AM
However, the humble Fighter is not as bad as you claim, stop belittling it.

Fighter isn't bad. It's just pointless. Because, in all honesty, it is. Fighter's job was in jeopardy when Barbarian was the only non-spellcaster challenging his position as party tank. Now he's not even in the running anymore.

Morty
2007-07-23, 10:11 AM
Fighter isn't bad. It's just pointless. Because, in all honesty, it is. Fighter's job was in jeopardy when Barbarian was the only non-spellcaster challenging his position as party tank. Now he's not even in the running anymore.

Of course, there are absolutely no people who want to be party tank without being barbarian or cleirc or druid? And who don't have and/or don't use ToB? Yeah.

Matthew
2007-07-23, 10:12 AM
Further, it still works. Partial-charge is only your move, but who cares when you're performing that Jump(+18 is alot).

Partial Actions can only be taken when you are actually limited to them, not when you have expended your other Actions.


The attack round would go like this:

Standard action: Initiate Emerald Razor
Move action: Charge. At the end of your charge, you make your single melee attack. During the charge, you jump to activate Leap Attack. Power Attack for full, since this one attack is going to be a touch attack.

Of course, the problem is that Pounce is no longer viable. But in all honesty, it doesn't matter until you get Raging Mongoose/Dancing Mongoose.

Even if you were able to use the Partial Action to Charge, this still wouldn't work, as the Emerald Razor Attack must be taken as part of the Standard Action that initiates it, as per the description.

ZeroNumerous
2007-07-23, 10:13 AM
Of course, there are absolutely no people who want to be party tank without being barbarian or cleirc or druid? And who don't have and/or don't use ToB? Yeah.

Not that I've seen. In my games and with my group, I've never heard anyone say "I wanna play a Fighter". I've heard Barbarian/Fighter, Rogue/Fighter, and even a Sorcerer/Fighter before, but not pure Fighter.

Further, even if I had, that would be a player choice. That doesn't mean Fighter has a job. Some people want to play a monk, but that doesn't give the monk a job.

EDIT: It doesn't say that you cannot choose to take a Partial-charge. I'd say that expending my standard action(and thus only having a Move action) is pretty well being limited to only a move action.

Further: I believe it says, "as part of this maneuver", not "as you are initiating this maneuver".

Matthew
2007-07-23, 10:26 AM
EDIT: It doesn't say that you cannot choose to take a Partial-charge. I'd say that expending my standard action(and thus only having a Move action) is pretty well being limited to only a move action.

Further: I believe it says, "as part of this maneuver", not "as you are initiating this maneuver".

Sorry Zero, but you are quite wrong:


Charge
Charging is a special full-round action that allows you to move up to twice your speed and attack during the action. However, it carries tight restrictions on how you can move.

Movement During a Charge
You must move before your attack, not after. You must move at least 10 feet (2 squares) and may move up to double your speed directly toward the designated opponent.

You must have a clear path toward the opponent, and nothing can hinder your movement (such as difficult terrain or obstacles). Hereís what it means to have a clear path. First, you must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent. (If this space is occupied or otherwise blocked, you canít charge.) Second, if any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you canít charge. (Helpless creatures donít stop a charge.)

If you donít have line of sight to the opponent at the start of your turn, you canít charge that opponent.

You canít take a 5-foot step in the same round as a charge.

If you are able to take only a standard action or a move action on your turn, you can still charge, but you are only allowed to move up to your speed (instead of up to double your speed). You canít use this option unless you are restricted to taking only a standard action or move action on your turn.

If the Emerald Razor Attack did not take place during the same Action that the Manoeuvre was initiated, you would be unable to Attack under normal circumstances.
More conclusively, Emerald Razor has no duration, therefore the rules for Manoeuvres that have no duration apply. Look to the relevant section of Tome of Battle (p. 45).

Closet_Skeleton
2007-07-23, 10:35 AM
and it forces them to use their daisho, when many samurai used bows, polearms, and what not.

No, it allows them to use the Daisho throughout their carreer. They still have martial weapon proficiency and can spend their money where they want.

TSGames
2007-07-23, 01:40 PM
I don't get why it seems that everyone in these forums all but hate samurai. What is it that makes people find them so bad? I know there are classes that I will put down and say how useless ability A is or something like that, but people are saying (or use to say) that samurai are the worst class in the game, below warrior. Or that one of the most useless things you can do is give the party a samurai, etc.
Personaly I like samurai, if not for being the expected 350% combat effective (thought they are quite effective in combat) that everyone needs around here, they are nice for flavor and such.

It's not really that people hate samurai so much as they acknowledge that ninjas are just objectively cooler. I think this proves my point:
http://www.insidepulse.com/columnImages/image18303.jpg