PAM or GFB\BB for Shillelagh build?

[EDL]

I'm starting a new campaign and I want to play as a Nature Cleric (front-liner in heavy armor using Shillelagh for melee attacks).

And so I have a few questions:

1. What feat is better for this build: PAM or Magic Initiate (for BB\GFB and Familiar as a bonus)?
On the one hand PAM gives me a bonus action attack without spending a spell slot on Spiritual weapon (and 2 chances to lay a Divine strike instead of one) and a potential use for a reaction. But on the other, BB\GFB damage scales much better and I still can cast Spiritual weapon for even more DPR.
2. I think that Hill dwarf can give lots to this build: first of all I can dump STR and still wear heavy armor and some extra HP are also nice. But there are 2 must have feats (PAM\MI for offensive and Resilent\WC for CON saving throws) and bumping WIS seems a must also. So I'm not sure weather i should choose dwarf or vhuman.

I'll be very grateful for any advice you can give.

[Plaguescarred]

I think Polearm Master will help you more as a front line heavy armor + shield & quarterstaff character. High AC, bonus attack, reaction attack is just too good to pass!

[AttilatheYeon]

Go magic initiate with BB. Polearm master doesn't get u much without extra attack.

[CaptAl]

The bonus from shillelagh will be way more impactful with PAM. 2d8 + 1d4 + (Wis ×3) is achievable from level 4 with PAM and Shillelagh using your reaction and bonus actions. That only gets better when you get Divine Strike at 8th level. Just remember as you level your melee becomes less and less important as your spells take on more of the heavy lifting.

The main draw of BB/GFB is the scaling damage. It will be way more swingy in play, though. If you miss your attack, well, you miss out on the bonus action and any Divine Strike as well.

Do you want to be a more consistent threat round to round, or hit more like a truck with an occasional whiff? Both are viable, pick whichever fits your playstyle best.

[Rysto]

The bonus from shillelagh will be way more impactful with PAM. 2d8 + 1d4 + (Wis ×3) is achievable from level 4 with PAM and Shillelagh using your reaction and bonus actions. That only gets better when you get Divine Strike at 8th level. Just remember as you level your melee becomes less and less important as your spells take on more of the heavy lifting.

This is exactly why I'd recommend BB instead. If you're going to spend resources on a feat, make sure that it's one that will last your entire career.

[CaptAl]

This is exactly why I'd recommend BB instead. If you're going to spend resources on a feat, make sure that it's one that will last your entire career.

If you know the campaign will last till 15th level +, then I'd totally agree with you. If you know it's going to end between 8th-12th you'll get more relative use from PAM. Again, it comes down to playstyle, just within the range of levels played.

[Foxhound438]

I agree with the BB/GFB pick. Probably BB, but that's my preference.

For some math:

PAM: .65*(d8+5+d8+5)+ .8775*(2d8) = 20.24

that's a normal chance to hit times the damage from the attacks, plus the chance to land divine strike with 2 attempts

BB: .65*(3d8+2d8+1d8+5) = 20.8

that's the cantrip damage added, the divine strike, and the weapon itself. Plus you still have your bonus action available


There is an argument to be made for PAM still, since there's the possibility for reaction damage, but personally I feel like keeping your bonus action open for SW or healing words is going to be better overall.

edit: there is also the fact that PAM is stronger earlier on.

[Squibsallotl]

I'm also starting a new game as a nature cleric soon and went for variant human to start with PAM and Shillelagh, however my DM isn't allowing SCAG material so it was an easy choice for me.

From a flavour and utility standpoint, I think Magic Initiate for BB/GFB and a familiar is the better option. Thunder or Fire damage fits well with the Nature theme, and the familiar can use the Help action to provide advantage, as well as offer scouting assistance out of combat.

[Deleted]

I'm starting a new campaign and I want to play as a Nature Cleric (front-liner in heavy armor using Shillelagh for melee attacks).

And so I have a few questions:

1. What feat is better for this build: PAM or Magic Initiate (for BB\GFB and Familiar as a bonus)?
On the one hand PAM gives me a bonus action attack without spending a spell slot on Spiritual weapon (and 2 chances to lay a Divine strike instead of one) and a potential use for a reaction. But on the other, BB\GFB damage scales much better and I still can cast Spiritual weapon for even more DPR.
2. I think that Hill dwarf can give lots to this build: first of all I can dump STR and still wear heavy armor and some extra HP are also nice. But there are 2 must have feats (PAM\MI for offensive and Resilent\WC for CON saving throws) and bumping WIS seems a must also. So I'm not sure weather i should choose dwarf or vhuman.

I'll be very grateful for any advice you can give.

I would take one of the cantrips and use Spiritual Weapon as my bonus action damage of choice.

[EDL]

Thanks for your answers, everyone. It helped me a lot.
I've also done some math making a table with DPR difference for every level. And decided to go Magic Initiate.

And now i'm thinking on another choice:
1. Go Vhuman for Magic Initiate an take Warcaster and +2 WIS at 4 and 8.
Pros:
- Having both "must have" feats and 18 WIS at 8 lvl
Cons:
- I still need 16 WIS (primary ability), 16 CON (I need hp for staying in front line and decent CON saving throw for concentration) and 15 STR (for plate armor) at start so I will have to dump all other stats (and having 8 DEX doesn't seem so cool).
2. Go Dwarf for more hp and ability to wear heavy armor without speed penalty. Start as a fighter and go fighter 1 | cleric X
Pros:
- CON saving throws proficiency allows me to take Magic Initiate at 5 and +2 WIS at 9 and still have pretty decent CON saving throw without extra feat.
- Dumping STR makes other stats decent
- +1 AC from fighting style and second wind
Cons:
- Spells and ASI's are delayed for 1 level

Any thoughts on this matter? I'll be grateful for every advice you can give.

[Deleted]

Thanks for your answers, everyone. It helped me a lot.
I've also done some math making a table with DPR difference for every level. And decided to go Magic Initiate.

And now i'm thinking on another choice:
1. Go Vhuman for Magic Initiate an take Warcaster and +2 WIS at 4 and 8.
Pros:
- Having both "must have" feats and 18 WIS at 8 lvl
Cons:
- I still need 16 WIS (primary ability), 16 CON (I need hp for staying in front line and decent CON saving throw for concentration) and 15 STR (for plate armor) at start so I will have to dump all other stats (and having 8 DEX doesn't seem so cool).
2. Go Dwarf for more hp and ability to wear heavy armor without speed penalty. Start as a fighter and go fighter 1 | cleric X
Pros:
- CON saving throws proficiency allows me to take Magic Initiate at 5 and +2 WIS at 9 and still have pretty decent CON saving throw without extra feat.
- Dumping STR makes other stats decent
- +1 AC from fighting style and second wind
Cons:
- Spells and ASI's are delayed for 1 level

Any thoughts on this matter? I'll be grateful for every advice you can give.

Just a random note...

As long as your DM isn't specifically harsh you really dont need to optimize all that much... Like I know it can be fun but I wouldnt sweat it too much. Basic builds keep up and surpass the game expectations after all.

[Pex]

I'm also starting a new game as a nature cleric soon and went for variant human to start with PAM and Shillelagh, however my DM isn't allowing SCAG material so it was an easy choice for me.

From a flavour and utility standpoint, I think Magic Initiate for BB/GFB and a familiar is the better option. Thunder or Fire damage fits well with the Nature theme, and the familiar can use the Help action to provide advantage, as well as offer scouting assistance out of combat.

Not all DMs will allow the familiar to help for advantage on an attack since it can't take the Attack action itself. Some might object to the power of always having advantage on your attacks since you only get one attack for your main attack anyway.

[EDL]

Just a random note...

As long as your DM isn't specifically harsh you really dont need to optimize all that much... Like I know it can be fun but I wouldnt sweat it too much. Basic builds keep up and surpass the game expectations after all.

Well, this DM is actually kinda harsh. I don't mean that he's trying to kill PC's or something like that, but he creates lots of really challenging encounters so having very good tactics, party coordination and optimized builds is important. Yes, it can be demanding, but that feeling when you stand with 1 hp (and an unconscious teammate's body in your hands) after beating really strong and smart enemy is totally worth it at the end.

[Foxhound438]

- I still need 16 WIS (primary ability), 16 CON (I need hp for staying in front line and decent CON saving throw for concentration) and 15 STR (for plate armor) at start so I will have to dump all other stats (and having 8 DEX doesn't seem so cool).


consider instead going 14 dex and using medium armor. It's only a 1 AC difference, and it relieves some of the pressure on point buy.

Alternatively, take resilient con at level 1 and wait until 4 or 8 to get MI. the +1 con bonus lets you have 15/16/16 and a 10 somewhere else, and the proficiency in the save will be enough 9 times out of 10 so that you don't immediately need war caster, though you can still take it in the late game if you want.

[Deleted]

Not all DMs will allow the familiar to help for advantage on an attack since it can't take the Attack action itself. Some might object to the power of always having advantage on your attacks since you only get one attack for your main attack anyway.

Since the help action has nothing to do with the attack action... That line of thinking is flimsy at best.

Also, familiars are so easy to get rid of that having to lie about rules is just silly.

[djreynolds]

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?512453-Can-I-improve-this-hill-dwarf-arcana-cleric

This is a good conversation here, arcana cleric might be better in the end

[Giant2005]

Thanks for your answers, everyone. It helped me a lot.
I've also done some math making a table with DPR difference for every level. And decided to go Magic Initiate.

And now i'm thinking on another choice:
1. Go Vhuman for Magic Initiate an take Warcaster and +2 WIS at 4 and 8.
Pros:
- Having both "must have" feats and 18 WIS at 8 lvl
Cons:
- I still need 16 WIS (primary ability), 16 CON (I need hp for staying in front line and decent CON saving throw for concentration) and 15 STR (for plate armor) at start so I will have to dump all other stats (and having 8 DEX doesn't seem so cool).
2. Go Dwarf for more hp and ability to wear heavy armor without speed penalty. Start as a fighter and go fighter 1 | cleric X
Pros:
- CON saving throws proficiency allows me to take Magic Initiate at 5 and +2 WIS at 9 and still have pretty decent CON saving throw without extra feat.
- Dumping STR makes other stats decent
- +1 AC from fighting style and second wind
Cons:
- Spells and ASI's are delayed for 1 level

Any thoughts on this matter? I'll be grateful for every advice you can give.

The way I figure it, if the 5' movement you would lose as a Dwarf doesn't bother you, then the 5' movement you would lose by instead (of being a Dwarf) being a Str-dumping Variant Human probably wouldn't bother you either.
So I guess go with option 3: the Str dumping Variant Human. If the speed difference matters to you, you would probably be better off going Str-dumping, Variant Human with the Mobility feat and basically follow your Dwarf path but while being better.

[Plaguescarred]

Polearm master doesn't get u much without extra attack.It should give you as much wether you have Extra Attack or not taken that the bonus attack or OA has nothing to do with it. What more does it give you if you have Extra Attack?

[Giant2005]

It should give you as much wether you have Extra Attack or not taken that the bonus attack or OA has nothing to do with it. What more does it give you if you have Extra Attack?

PAM's main benefit (the bonus action attack) only triggers when you take the attack action. Its value rises proportionately to the amount of incentive you have for taking the Attack Action. It is why Paladin's love PAM while Wizards don't.

[Plaguescarred]

PAM's main benefit (the bonus action attack) only triggers when you take the attack action. Its value rises proportionately to the amount of incentive you have for taking the Attack Action. It is why Paladin's love PAM while Wizards don't.The OP already showed having an incentive to take the Attack action as he will play a front-liner in heavy armor using Shillelagh for melee attacks so i find odd to claim that Polearm Master doesn't get you much without Extra Attack in this case, it gives you as much wether you have it or not.

[Galadhrim]

I think the first question is do you want to roleplay a dwarf or a human? Also, how much will dark vision come up in your campaign?

If you go v. Human, I would take war caster 1st since early game advantage on con saves is better than proficiency and it gives you lots of options on opportunity attacks, not to mention making your life much easier as a caster with both hands full.

Booming blade is great but it isn't that much better than your normal attack until level 5 anyway so magic initiate at 4 works well. If it were me I would probably forget GFB and take minor illusion as my second cantrip.

[Pex]

Since the help action has nothing to do with the attack action... That line of thinking is flimsy at best.

Also, familiars are so easy to get rid of that having to lie about rules is just silly.

Doesn't matter. Some DMs won't allow it.

[Citan]

Thanks for your answers, everyone. It helped me a lot.
I've also done some math making a table with DPR difference for every level. And decided to go Magic Initiate.

And now i'm thinking on another choice:
1. Go Vhuman for Magic Initiate an take Warcaster and +2 WIS at 4 and 8.
Pros:
- Having both "must have" feats and 18 WIS at 8 lvl
Cons:
- I still need 16 WIS (primary ability), 16 CON (I need hp for staying in front line and decent CON saving throw for concentration) and 15 STR (for plate armor) at start so I will have to dump all other stats (and having 8 DEX doesn't seem so cool).
2. Go Dwarf for more hp and ability to wear heavy armor without speed penalty. Start as a fighter and go fighter 1 | cleric X
Pros:
- CON saving throws proficiency allows me to take Magic Initiate at 5 and +2 WIS at 9 and still have pretty decent CON saving throw without extra feat.
- Dumping STR makes other stats decent
- +1 AC from fighting style and second wind
Cons:
- Spells and ASI's are delayed for 1 level

Any thoughts on this matter? I'll be grateful for every advice you can give.
Hi!

This is your best bet: you get powerful main attack (GFB), powerful reaction attack (BB), and you have your bonus action free for either extra damage (Spiritual Weapon) or emergency (Healing Words).

Don't worry too much about being less mobile if you dump STR, or just forego the heavy armor idea for now and use medium armor + shield. Losing 1 AC is sad, but you should manage. Worst case, use Shield of Faith or later Spirit Guardians (although you are usually expected to concentrate on Bless for your friends ^^).

[EvilAnagram]

Don't take PAM. Clerics rarely have a free bonus action after level 4.

[djreynolds]

Don't take PAM. Clerics rarely have a free bonus action after level 4.

Right spiritual weapon will serve you better and healing word

[coredump]

Since the help action has nothing to do with the attack action... That line of thinking is flimsy at best.

Also, familiars are so easy to get rid of that having to lie about rules is just silly.

"lie"? Project much?

The Help action has a *lot* to do with being capable of performing the same action.

p. 175 "A character can only provide help if the task is one that he or she could attempt alone."

So based on that, it makes perfect sense to require a familiar to be able to attack in order to Help someone else.

Now, as it turns out, the Help action in the Combat section gives a unique override for this particular situation. Thus if you want to help an attack, you don't need to be able to attack.... but that isn't the norm, its the lone exception.