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Harlekin
2017-02-06, 06:04 AM
Hi,

I'm the DM in a D&D 3.5 game, but I'm posting this here, since it's not a system specific question. I'm having a bit of trouble with the motivations of Demons.
So Demons like chaos and being evil. But that's not very much to work with... I'm looking for something more in depth than "just because they are chaotic evil, that's why".

What do they gain? What do they need? What do they fear? Do they fear anything at all?

Does anybody have good ideas for this?

Thanks in advance!

Yorkblack
2017-02-06, 06:13 AM
I would say that depends on the settings. The idea behind demons is that they are bad and love to spread chaos. Why, is from the setting. It could just be "what they do", or it can be something like "their powers come from chaos, the more anarchic the world becomes the more powerful they are", which is pretty much the idea in deadlands (replace chaos with fear though).
What they want, need, fear and everything comes from that, it is up to you to make them how you want them to be.

Zombimode
2017-02-06, 07:09 AM
Hi,

I'm the DM in a D&D 3.5 game, but I'm posting this here, since it's not a system specific question. I'm having a bit of trouble with the motivations of Demons.
So Demons like chaos and being evil. But that's not very much to work with... I'm looking for something more in depth than "just because they are chaotic evil, that's why".

What do they gain? What do they need? What do they fear? Do they fear anything at all?

Does anybody have good ideas for this?

Thanks in advance!

Didn't we had this discussion a couple of weeks ago?

The bottom line is: the answer is entirely dependent on what the term "Demon" entails in your specific setting.

If your demons are actual persons (just with some unfortunate dispositions), the question for motivations is an actual question that can only be answered by yourself, but is in principle the same as the possible motivations for any other Person.
Be aware that this outlook on demons is not consistant with the way the Abyss and it's inhabitants are set up in D&D 3.5.

If your demons are more akin to Forces instead of persons, answering this question becomes impossible on the ground of it being an inapplicable question. Just like the question after to motivation of the Sun or the taste of the number "8", asking for the motivation of a demon simply doesn't make sense.
A demon under this view will ALWAYS be bend on causing destruction, destabilisation of order and suffering. Because this is simply what it means to be a demon.
Be aware that, while D&D 3.5's Display of demons usually follows this outlook, it is sadly not consistent in this approach.

Darth Ultron
2017-02-06, 07:38 AM
What do they gain? What do they need? What do they fear? Do they fear anything at all?


Well, going by the ''default 3.5E Demon type'':

Demons enjoy being evil and chaotic and causing evil and chaos. So I lot of what they do is just for fun and entertainment. A lot of demons are very primal and even ''child like'', but not the good kids...they are the bad kids that do things like fry ants on a side walk.....or worse. Few demons have any impulse control, so they just do whatever and don't care.

For inspiration, just look at any horrible criminal. There is tons of ''true crime'' stuff out there, go watch and read some

For a bit more ''advanced'' fun, demons like to trick and corrupt mortals. It's a very fun game to them to watch a mortal fall into darkness.

Demons want mortal souls to use as ''cash''.

Overall, a demon does what to rise in rank and become more powerful....like most beings.

Demons, in general fear failure and loss and destruction. Like most beings. They fear imprisonment and enslavement too. The biggest fear might be a loss of status, rank or power.

Millstone85
2017-02-06, 09:44 AM
Didn't we had this discussion a couple of weeks ago?Pretty much: Why do demons do what they do? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?509893-Why-do-demons-do-what-they-do)

Short version of the answer I gave there: In the Abyss, you are either someone's victim or someone's bully.

NovenFromTheSun
2017-02-06, 05:30 PM
That largely depends on your setting, but for me I see no problem with them being driven by pure malice: they seek to destroy mortals because they hate mortals.

MarkVIIIMarc
2017-02-06, 06:31 PM
When in doubt use real life examples.

What motivated Stalin?

How about Hitler?

Pol Pot?

Jeffrey Dahmer?

Heck, just give a little twist to what motivated Anakin/Vader and you'll have a fairly deep D&D bad guy.

daniel_ream
2017-02-06, 10:34 PM
What do they gain? What do they need? What do they fear? Do they fear anything at all?

Does anybody have good ideas for this?

C. S. Lewis had some thoughts on the subject (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Screwtape_Letters).

aarenrosson91
2017-02-07, 02:14 PM
I've found that while Lower level demons are basically angry kids with a magnifying glass, the upper level demons DO have goals: whether it be the advancement of their own power or influence, up to and including taking godhood, or as simple as a vendetta against some family or another that wronged them. The point is, if it can think, it can want.

Kyberwulf
2017-02-07, 02:50 PM
What do they gain? Power
What do they need? Power
What do they fear? Power
Do they fear anything at all? Power

They don't fear failure, or imprisonment. They don't care about Hierarchy or status. That is the devil's domain. They don't fear their own destruction.

They see themselves as always have been, always are, and always will be. Anything that confines them is temporary, and you cannot destroy that which is eternal. They are extremely patient,n a Slasher movie kind of way. You might get away in the short term, in the end though. They will get you.

Segev
2017-02-07, 03:02 PM
As chaotic evil entities, they are motivated by their personal desires above all else. Being evil, those desires will typically include an enjoyment of the suffering of others, particularly at their hands. Though not necessarily.

Every demon is going to have their own goals and drives. In general, "enslaving others" is part of it just because it makes them more powerful and lets them have more victims upon whom to slake their numerous and diverse lusts.

A Type V demoness might crave battle and challenge, as a blood knight. She might enjoy winning "by the rules of engagement," or she might enjoy merely making it look that way as she cheats with all six hands under the table.

A Type III demon is said to be a tempter; he likely enjoys watching a delicately planned seduction to darkness reveal the depravity he knew was inside each victim. If it ruins their lives or others', so much the more entertaining. Doubtless, the corruption they enjoy spreading gives them hooks - vices they can feed - to control and manipulate and spread their influence further. But he's not going to let a plan get in the way of a good time. Caprice is ever the way of demonkind.

A Quasit will seek to give his master advice which leads to overt power, but ultimate ruin at the last moment. Expeditious but malignant or careless methods are his advice. And he'll enjoy watching his master triumph in a cruel way, and even more enjoy it when his master lets him share in the torment of his victims.

The Queen of Chaos craves conquest, and loves to lord her majesty over all. But she is not a ruler through rigid orchestration; she rules by force, and her will is done everywhere she casts her gaze. But she sets up few laws, save "obedience to the Queen." Her minions are more concerned with pleasing her and avoiding her wrath than following any strict rules of conduct.

Mmagsgreen
2017-02-13, 10:42 AM
Hi,

What do they gain? What do they need? What do they fear? Do they fear anything at all?


What are compelling traits in villains for you and your players?

My recommendation (if you don't go the force of nature route that has been mentioned previously) is to approach demons like people. Strange and horrible people, but beings that have to live a day to day with specific interests and worldviews.

A demon might not need to eat, but who says they don't really enjoy fine dining? Good furniture? Music? Power, sure, but in what form? Acquiring money? Are they cruel to their servants, or only cruel to those who do not serve?

I would recommend building a demon like a character. A really horrible character, perhaps, but...

Segev
2017-02-13, 11:06 AM
One thing I think I failed to articulate in my last post is the difference between a CE ruler/conqueror and an LE one.

LE is pretty easy to envision. They have their legions of faceless minions, they rule with an iron fist, their laws are draconian and their servants vie for favor by exploiting the letter of the law to catch each other in "treason" or simply to gain every ounce of power possible. The ruler is in charge as much by mastery of the system as he is by personal power. Technically, lieutenants and other minions can escape his wrath if they have the rules to shield them - usually by finding a scapegoat. It's not wise to do this too often, though; the guy on top is up there because he knows how to use the rules, and the rules are set up to serve his will. You'll fall afoul of them if he wants you to.

CE is a little trickier, because while there's an instinctive sense of what it might look like, articulating it without sounding like an LE empire is more difficult. CE, in the end, though, is an empire ruled ENTIRELY by fear and force. The closest it comes to "organization" is that there is a hierarchy of thugs based more on proximity to the throne than on anything more formal. Gang leaders report to mayors or governors, who report to majordomos to the Demon Queen, who, obviously, report to her.

The rules, though, aren't set in stone. The LE tyrant generally WILL accept "I was following orders/procedure, my lord" as an excuse, even if grudgingly (see above for reasons why relying on this too often is a bad idea). The scapegoat, too, must be guilty under the rules. The CE despot, on the other hand, has no rules for your to hide behind. Those above you can do whatever they want to you, unless you can get somebody higher than them to say otherwise. And if you can forcibly prevent it, you might just be able to Klingon Promote yourself. Maybe; be careful, because they could still crush you with the others of your rank they command.

In a CE empire, the only rule is "make your superiors happy." If you want to go over somebody's head, by all means, you can. In fact, you may have to use all means, because they'll want to make sure you get crushed if you try. "The Demon Queen told me to do this" does trump any other authority figure, but only because they're afraid of taking the blame if their interference gets back to her. There is no safety in procedure; there is little to no procedure at all. Results are all that matter. But they matter every time. One screw-up after a hundred successes can still get you just as dead as if you screwed up that first time.

Deified Data
2017-02-13, 05:12 PM
Bring about a new kalpa. The world is stifled and constrained by order and demons are angels of chaos and harbingers of change. Humanity may fight for the world as they know it but demons could fight for what the world could become.

Segev
2017-02-13, 05:45 PM
Bring about a new kalpa. The world is stifled and constrained by order and demons are angels of chaos and harbingers of change. Humanity may fight for the world as they know it but demons could fight for what the world could become.

That's CN or CG. CE might sing that tune, but it's hypocritical. They're about tearing apart order to bring about a chaos they can rule...or at least avoid being ruled in. While they do whatever they darn well please to anybody too weak or slow to stop or avoid them.

Kelb_Panthera
2017-02-13, 06:28 PM
For 3.5, they really don't have much motivation beyond their own amusement or survival. They really, really do just act on base instinct for the most part.

This does create some angles though;

First, being driven by base instinct and a desire for amusement doesn't make demons stupid or short-sighted. One could very well try to organize some delicious horror involving complex deceptions leading to mortals doing horrific things (anakin and the younglings, anyone) just to see if they can do it. Alternately, they could commit some attrocity where the... mess... will be found to sate their curiosity about how the mortals will react.

Even being as they are, demons will yield to creatures of greater power and influence. Grazz't, Demogorgon, Dagon, et al have large cadres of demonic followers and tremendous reach. A demon could easily be acting as part of a network of fiends and cultists toward some larger goal set by a demon prince or one of his stronger underlings. It's motivation is fear for its safety in this scenario. Betraying a demon prince paints quite a substantial target on one's back, after all.

On the subject of domineering overlords, pushing around weaker beings and forcing them to do one's bidding has great appeal to most demons. It's not at all unheard of for a demon of middling power to take over a tribe of one of the more savage races or to take control of a small settlement and make a game of keeping the fact it's a demon from outsiders while allowing the locals to either know or at least strongly suspect the truth.


To sum up, there's interesting stuff to do with demons as long as you're willing to let your mind wander into the darker places.

Mastikator
2017-02-14, 01:00 AM
Sadism is one hellova drug. It's not complicated.

Cozzer
2017-02-14, 04:35 AM
They could also believe in "survival of the fittest" taken to the extreme. They bully others because stronger people bully weaker people, that's how it is and how it's always been, and any attempt to impose equality or order is pathetic and hypocritical wishful thinking just asking to be proven wrong.

In the end, the goal will be more or less always the same: gain an advantage on others (either in physical strength, diplomacy, magic...) and use this advantage to gain things at their expense. What creates interesting villains is how they rationalize that goal. Don't forget that every villain is the good guy (or at least, the guy who's right) in his own narrative.

(Well, with demons there is the option to just make them moustache-twirling villains who are aware of their own evilness, but you asked for interesting villains so...)

Segev
2017-02-14, 12:28 PM
Because "Evil" is an objective concept in D&D, no demon is going to deny being evil. They will, however, scoff at the notion that this is somehow unworthy or "bad." Evil is, of course, STRENGTH. It is clarity and wisdom to recognize that the strong are not to be constrained by the weak. Not only is it the natural order (not that "natural order" is inherently desirable, but it is what it is and denying it is stupid), but trying to upend it only leads to making yourself miserable.

And while demons find misery hilarious, it's only so when it happens to other beings.

They're thrilled if you idiots want to embrace weaknesses like "compassion" or "charity" or "mercy." They'll gladly exploit them for their own personal benefit. They'll happily proclaim themselves villains and bad guys, because those terms just mean "strong and smart." "Successful," too, if people feel it worth acknowledging their villainy.

Of course they're evil! Being evil just means you're strong and know how to use that strength.

LibraryOgre
2017-02-14, 12:41 PM
A demon that is devoted to corrupting an individual or family line.

A demon that feels a great revulsion for a certain virtue, and so tries to subvert it whenever possible.

A demon that opposes knowledge, and so stokes ignorance.

A demon that takes advantage of charity freely offered, and tries to turn it to evil ends.

A demon that erodes the confidence of average people... it offers cutting comments to bards, or passing criticisms designed to turn people angry and unconfident.

A demon that supports an assassins or thieves' guild.

A demon that barters the true names of other demons (or devils, or angels) to magic-users, so they can control them to their own ends.

Max_Killjoy
2017-02-14, 12:56 PM
Hi,

I'm the DM in a D&D 3.5 game, but I'm posting this here, since it's not a system specific question. I'm having a bit of trouble with the motivations of Demons.
So Demons like chaos and being evil. But that's not very much to work with... I'm looking for something more in depth than "just because they are chaotic evil, that's why".

What do they gain? What do they need? What do they fear? Do they fear anything at all?

Does anybody have good ideas for this?

Thanks in advance!

Monomania: they're fixated on something they want, and will do anything -- ANYTHING -- to get it. It could be anything.