Epic rules still don't make any sense to me

[Dagroth]

Rather than hijack someone else's thread, I'm creating a new one....

I have never been able to understand the Epic rules. It seems like they're only available to those who are single-classed or who are non-casters.

For example, if you're a Changeling (shapechanger subtype built in) you can go Rogue 6, Warshaper 5, Rouge 9 and keep going Epic Rogue. Heck, you could even fit another prestige class in there if you wanted.

But, if you wanted to go Druid and get Warshaper to improve your Wildshaping (like Druid 6, Warshaper 5 (to change as a move action), Druid 9). Then what do you do?

[J-H]

You don't become an Epic Rogue until Rogue 21.

In general, the only benefit of Epic X class levels is more sneak attack, arcane archer arrows, etc,. and a few Epic bonus feats. You don't get any actual new class features. In some cases, multiclassing at level 21 is a preferable option because you can pick up new options from your new class.

[Khedrac]

Epic classes as printed do very little - the main thing is that they grant bonus epic feats (and give a small amount of class feature progression).

What needs to be remembered is that the rules strongly imply that any 10+ level prestige class should have an epic continuation, but you have to sit down with your DM and work out what it will be.
This does mean that for any campaign heading epic the prestige classes with fewer than 10 levels is a partial trap, but if you don't need the epic feats then you don't need the epic prestige class.

[Eldan]

Also always remember that they are poorly thought out, unbalanced garbage and best forgotten entirely.

[TheTeaMustFlow]

Epic Rules still don't make any sense to me


Epic Rules

sense
http://i3.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/228/269/demotivational-posters-theres-your-problem.jpg

[Remuko]

You become an epic character at ECL 21 but you don't take epic levels of a class until you already have 20 levels in that base class or 10 in a prestige class.

If you were Wizard 15 Archmage 5 when you were 20 and you level to 21 if you take another level if Wizard it would be Wizard 16 not Epic Wizard. The difference is once you are Character level 21 you use the Epic saving throw and BaB in place of the normal PHB class ones even if your not an Epic Wizard in this case. There a sole exception to this for w/e reason. Monsters. Monsters with Racial HD above 21 continue using pre-epic progression as long as they dont take any class levels. If they take a class level they switch to Epic Progression rules. This despite my confusion earlier is likely because 21+ HD monsters existed before epic rules did and they didnt want to retcon everything.

[Uncle Pine]

Also keep in mind that outside Epic Spellcasting you'll mostly see epic rules mentioned because of Dragonwrought kobolds (whether or not they're actually considered true dragons).
For example, epic feats generally suck because they don't do a whole lot more than what a high level optimized character can do pre-epic, but they become way more interesting when you can just grab them at 2nd or 3rd level.

[Dagroth]

Okay... I think I'm getting it now.

So the Druid in my example would keep progressing his Druid class, but using the "Epic Saving Throw" & "Epic BAB" ( and access to Epic Feats by character level? ) tables.

It just seemed like once you hit level 20, you had to take Epic Class Levels, which hosed anyone who didn't get their 9th level spells by level 20. ( Which was only reinforced by people constantly saying you needed to try your hardest to get your caster to have 9th level spells by level 20! )

[MesiDoomstalker]

Okay... I think I'm getting it now.

So the Druid in my example would keep progressing his Druid class, but using the "Epic Saving Throw" & "Epic BAB" ( and access to Epic Feats by character level? ) tables.

It just seemed like once you hit level 20, you had to take Epic Class Levels, which hosed anyone who didn't get their 9th level spells by level 20. ( Which was only reinforced by people constantly saying you needed to try your hardest to get your caster to have 9th level spells by level 20! )

The need to hit 9th's before level 20 is because most games don't ever go past level 20. The final battle is had and the game is put away. So it doesn't matter if you'd get 9th's at level 21, the game's over. Go home, no 9ths for you. Obviously, if the game will continue into Epic, it's far less of a concern (though getting +16 BAB pre-20 is mandatory, since you can't get extra initiatives attacks after level 20).

[KillianHawkeye]

For example, if you're a Changeling (shapechanger subtype built in) you can go Rogue 6, Warshaper 5, Rouge 9 and keep going Epic Rogue. Heck, you could even fit another prestige class in there if you wanted.

But, if you wanted to go Druid and get Warshaper to improve your Wildshaping (like Druid 6, Warshaper 5 (to change as a move action), Druid 9). Then what do you do?

I'm wondering why you think there's any difference in how these two characters would operate upon getting into epic levels. They are identical except for their class names.

[Remuko]

Okay... I think I'm getting it now.

So the Druid in my example would keep progressing his Druid class, but using the "Epic Saving Throw" & "Epic BAB" ( and access to Epic Feats by character level? ) tables.

It just seemed like once you hit level 20, you had to take Epic Class Levels, which hosed anyone who didn't get their 9th level spells by level 20. ( Which was only reinforced by people constantly saying you needed to try your hardest to get your caster to have 9th level spells by level 20! )

Correct.

Yeah you dont have to at all. If you were Druid 20 and wanted to continue as a single classed Druid you would HAVE to take epic class levels but thats all. You could just continue taking levels and normal pre epic base and prestige classes til level 9001 if you want (and if theres enough classes and levels for that, I didn't check).

[Dagroth]

I'm wondering why you think there's any difference in how these two characters would operate upon getting into epic levels. They are identical except for their class names.

Because "Epic Rogue Levels" progress the Rogue class pretty-much as usual (except for BAB & Saves, obviously), while the "Epic Druid Levels" don't give more spells, new spells, etc. unless they spend a feat on it.

In fact, it specifically says "The druid’s caster level is equal to his or her class level. The druid’s number of spells per day does not increase after 20th level. "

Epic Levels were clearly[b] written for single-class characters.

Heck, Epic Sorcerers are even more hosed than usual, because Epic Wizards keep automatically getting more spells known (which can be Epic spells, the way the text is written) and Epic Wizards are allowed to get Item Creation Feats (and Epic Item Creation Feats) with their bonus feats, while Sorcerers are not. (Oh, and Epic Clerics don't get Epic Item Creation Feats with their bonus feats either... why?)

More weirdness...

"The epic eldritch knight continues to gain new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) at each new level, up to the maximum spells per day and spells known of the arcane spellcasting class to which the eldritch knight belonged before adding the prestige class."

But...

"The epic loremaster’s number of spells per day (and number of spells known, if applicable) does not automatically increase after 10th level."

And Epic Mystic Theurge is hosed, since is just amounts to getting a level in one of the classes, then one level in the other class. Why not just switch back to those two classes? Oh wait! It's because the RAW reading of those classes. They don't get any more spells after level 20 unless they use feats for them!


Correct.

Yeah you dont have to at all. If you were Druid 20 and wanted to continue as a single classed Druid you would HAVE to take epic class levels but thats all. You could just continue taking levels and normal pre epic base and prestige classes til level 9001 if you want (and if theres enough classes and levels for that, I didn't check).

But it's not [b]written that way!

Mainly because of the way Epic Fighter & Epic Rogue are exactly the same as if you just continued their class tables normally (except Epic Rogue's "specially abilities" are Epic Feats instead).

[MesiDoomstalker]

Because "Epic Rogue Levels" progress the Rogue class pretty-much as usual (except for BAB & Saves, obviously), while the "Epic Druid Levels" don't give more spells, new spells, etc. unless they spend a feat on it.

In fact, it specifically says "The druid’s caster level is equal to his or her class level. The druid’s number of spells per day does not increase after 20th level. "

Epic Levels were clearly[b] written for single-class characters.

Heck, Epic Sorcerers are even more hosed than usual, because Epic Wizards keep automatically getting more spells known (which can be Epic spells, the way the text is written) and Epic Wizards are allowed to get Item Creation Feats (and Epic Item Creation Feats) with their bonus feats, while Sorcerers are not. (Oh, and Epic Clerics don't get Epic Item Creation Feats with their bonus feats either... why?)

More weirdness...

"The epic eldritch knight continues to gain new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) at each new level, up to the maximum spells per day and spells known of the arcane spellcasting class to which the eldritch knight belonged before adding the prestige class."

But...

"The epic loremaster’s number of spells per day (and number of spells known, if applicable) does not automatically increase after 10th level."

And Epic Mystic Theurge is hosed, since is just amounts to getting a level in one of the classes, then one level in the other class. Why not just switch back to those two classes? Oh wait! It's because the RAW reading of those classes. They don't get any more spells after level 20 unless they use feats for them!



But it's not [b]written that way!

Mainly because of the way Epic Fighter & Epic Rogue are exactly the same as if you just continued their class tables normally (except Epic Rogue's "specially abilities" are Epic Feats instead).

Right, here's the thing. You don't take Epic [Class] levels till you have 20 (or 10, in the case of PrCs) levels in that class. A Wizard 15 / Archmage 5 will not take Epic Wizard at level 21, but Wizard 16 (sans BAB and Save progression). Now, in that instance, it doesn't matter since that Wizard already casts as a level 20 Wizard. Then again, Epic is a whole lot of trash that took the already shaky balance and just threw it into a Sphere of Annihilation.

[KillianHawkeye]

In fact, it specifically says "The druid’s caster level is equal to his or her class level. The druid’s number of spells per day does not increase after 20th level. "

It's referring to the 20th class level, not your 20th level overall.

[Dagroth]

It's referring to the 20th class level, not your 20th level overall.

Sadly, as I say over and over in this thread, it doesn't actually say that.

[KillianHawkeye]

Sadly, as I say over and over in this thread, it doesn't actually say that.

It really actually does.


Despite the twenty-level limit indicated in the Player's Handbook, you can advance a class level beyond 20th by using the rules in this book. You can also advance the class level of a ten-level prestige class beyond 10th level, but only if the character level of the advancing character is already 20th or higher. You cannot advance the class level of a class with fewer than ten levels beyond the maximum described for that class, regardless of the character level of the advancing character.

Then, in the intro to explaining epic class features, it says:

Because the Player's Handbook contains information on advancement only up to 20th level in any given class, this book expands each class's progression of class features beyond 20th level.

How many times does it have to say "class level" before you get it? It is quite explicit that the effects of epic classes are based on individual class levels. The fact that BAB and Saves switch to the epic progressions at character level 21+ is also explicitly an exception to that. There's even a big sidebar on page 207 about why BAB and Save progression is based on character level when the rest of it isn't.

It then goes on to list specifics, including the following:

For spellcasters, caster level continues to increase after 20th level. Thus, a 23rd-level wizard casts as a 23rd-level character, while a 24th-level paladin's caster level is 12th (one-half her class level). However, a character's spells per day don't increase after 20th level.

In the given context, it's clearly referring to class level, not overall character level, just as it has been all along.

I'll say it again, your examples of an epic Rogue and an epic Druid are not at all different from each other in terms of acquiring epic class features.

[Uncle Pine]

Sadly, as I say over and over in this thread, it doesn't actually say that.
I can't remember the point of the PHB in which it's stated that when otherwise stated class features refer class levels, but in the meantime this should do as far as convincing you that a multiclass character doesn't automatically pick the epic version of a new class (and can get new spells if he isn't 20th level already in that class).

Epic Level Basics
Epic characters—those whose character level is 21st or higher—are handled slightly differently from nonepic characters. While epic characters continue to receive most of the benefits of gaining levels, some benefits are replaced by alternative gains. A class can be advanced beyond 20th level. A ten-level prestige class can progress beyond 10th level, but only if the character level is already 20th or higher. A class with fewer than ten levels cannot progress beyond the maximum for that class, regardless of character level.
[...]
Adding a Second Class
When a single-class epic character gains a level, he or she may choose to increase the level of his or her current class or pick up a new class at 1st level. The standard rules for multiclass characters still apply, but epic characters must keep in mind the rules for epic advancement. The epic character gains all the 1st-level class skills, weapon proficiency, armor proficiency, spells, and other class features of the new class, as well as a Hit Die of the appropriate type. In addition, the character gets the usual skill points from the new class. Just as with standard multiclassing, adding the second class does not confer some of the benefits for a 1st-level character, including maximum hit points from the first Hit Die, quadruple the per-level skill points, starting equipment, starting gold, or an animal companion. An epic character does not gain the base attack bonuses and base save bonuses normally gained when adding a second class. Instead, an epic character uses the epic attack bonus and epic save bonus progression shown on Table: Epic Save and Epic Attack Bonuses.