UA: Sorcerer - Favored Soul, Phoenix Sorcery, Sea Sorcery, Stone Sorcery

[jaappleton]

Those are the Origins in the article.

Should be uploaded shortly.

http://media.wizards.com/2017/dnd/downloads/26_UASorcererUA020617s.pdf

It's open.

[Sception]

Hrm. If they're updating the soul, I kind of wish they had taken the opportunity to revisit shadow as well, as I love the theme, but the mechanics make my DM leery.

Never been a big classical elemental fan, but I understand it's a pretty popular theme for sorcerer, so I can't object to seeing such. Looking forward to when the article goes live

[DracoKnight]

Really interested to see what they do with a phoenix sorcerer :smallbiggrin:

[Kileonhardt]

Those are the Origins in the article.

Should be uploaded shortly.

http://media.wizards.com/2017/dnd/downloads/26_UASorcererUA020617s.pdf

It's open.

Well as much as I wanted a sorc rework even though I knew we wouldn't get one I did totally expect Soul (since it wasn't done by the current team) and extra origins. Should be a decent read for Favored and Phoenix but I doubt I'll care for Sea or Stone.

[Feuerphoenix]

phoenix is sweet <3 LV 18 is quite brutal though...

[jaappleton]

Phoenix gets +Cha to fire damage rolls at lv1.

Bye bye Dragon Sorc.

Phoenix 1 / Undying Light 1 now grants double Charisma to fire, starting at level 2. Though the ability to do it (from the Phoenix perspective) is Long Rest dependent, it lasts 1 minute.

From the perspective of the abilities, it seems like Undying Light has become the Phoenix origin. Compare the lv6 abilities.

[Kileonhardt]

Phoenix gets +Cha to fire damage rolls at lv1.

Bye bye Dragon Sorc.

Phoenix 1 / Undying Light 1 now grants double Charisma to fire, starting at level 2. Though the ability to do it (from the Phoenix perspective) is Long Rest dependent, it lasts 1 minute.

From the perspective of the abilities, it seems like Undying Light has become the Phoenix origin. Compare the lv6 abilities.

The biggest thing to note about the charisma to fire is that it adds on damage rolls, meaning every scorching ray hit.

[Feuerphoenix]

Phoenix gets +Cha to fire damage rolls at lv1.

Bye bye Dragon Sorc.

Phoenix 1 / Undying Light 1 now grants double Charisma to fire, starting at level 2. Though the ability to do it (from the Phoenix perspective) is Long Rest dependent, it lasts 1 minute.

From the perspective of the abilities, it seems like Undying Light has become the Phoenix origin. Compare the lv6 abilities.

Still I am wondering, why the first ability is not simply "you learn produce flame" :D

[jaappleton]

Stone is VERY interesting AC = 13 + CON modifier. First one to do that. I like it.

As far as abilities, I love Sea... But the terrible Lightning based cantrips, man. Ugh. Shocking Grasp and Lightning Lure. I'm a d6 HD class, I don't want things near me!

[DivisibleByZero]

Stone Sorcery is 5e's Swordmage.
I still prefer the previous Favored Soul. I don't like this one at all.

[Regitnui]

Read! Nice to see they completed the elemental origins. Along with Storm, Phoenix, Sea and Earth Souls are all flavoured enough to make me want to platywith them. The favoured soul seems fine to me, and it has extra spells! The one I really like, being a little pyromaniac, is the Phoenix Soul. I like that they went a different direction to "burninate everything", with a bit of healing and resurrection features. The Sea Soul looks fun for my pirate campaign's BBEG, while the Earth Soul looks fun; a melee sorcerer who is appropriately less squishy. I'd rename it to something like Steel Soul, with its focus on armour, weapons and smite.

[Falcon X]

We now have the 4 elemental types covered:
- Elemental Air
- Elemental Earth
- Elemental Water
- Elemental Phoenix

I do find it odd that it's not directly focused on the Elemental Fire bloodline like the others are. Still like it though.

[Mikal]

Stone Sorcery is 5e's Swordmage.
I still prefer the previous Favored Soul. I don't like this one at all.

I like the newer one. Old one basically said "Oh, you want to be a Sorcerer, but also want to have martial attacks and wear armor? Instead of multi-classing, here ya go! Oh, and we'll give you lots of bonus spells. No, you don't need to choose them, you just get them in addition! And wings, just because."

In other words, FS just gave way too much for its archetype. This seems much more in tune with other archetypes.

[Kileonhardt]

Stone Sorcery is 5e's Swordmage.
I still prefer the previous Favored Soul. I don't like this one at all.

As someone playing the current Favored Soul I do like the idea of this one more but losing extra attack and having to spend spells known on the cleric spells now is kind of ugh.

Although you're no longer limited to the cleric domain for spells so I guess it's a decent trade off.

[jaappleton]

Stone Sorcery is 5e's Swordmage.


I got the exact same vibe.

And... I kinda like it. Utilizing 13 + CON for AC means you can utilize either Dex or Strength for your weapons, making you less MAD. You'll still need 3 stats, but Shield proficiency helps shore up your AC a bit.

It's solid (Pun intended)!

[Belac93]

Phoenix soul is definitely my favourite of the new subclasses, always wanted to be a character who goes out in a blaze of glory.

The water one is the second. We don't have enough water abilities, and this adds a lot I think.

Stone gives a great melee option, which is a plus, because draconic sorcerers weren't that good at it.

Favoured soul is kinda bland, but it's not bad. I'd just rather play something else.

Phoenix also seems like it would have melee synergy with warlock and barbarian. Maybe Barb 1/warlock 3/sorcerer x, fiend patron, blade pact. Cast Armour of Agathys as a 2nd level spell twice per short rest, go and rage to take half damage, and then mantle of flame to deal damage to anyone who hits you. With 20 Charisma, it would make opponents very reluctant to attack you, and you can hit them with your bound greataxe, gaining temporary hit points if your armour is gone.

[DivisibleByZero]

I like the newer one. Old one basically said "Oh, you want to be a Sorcerer, but also want to have martial attacks and wear armor? Instead of multi-classing, here ya go! Oh, and we'll give you lots of bonus spells. No, you don't need to choose them, you just get them in addition! And wings, just because."

In other words, FS just gave way too much for its archetype. This seems much more in tune with other archetypes.

As someone playing the current Favored Soul I do like the idea of this one more but losing extra attack and having to spend spells known on the cleric spells now is kind of ugh.

Although you're no longer limited to the cleric domain for spells so I guess it's a decent trade off.

If you combine these two sentiments, you get my reasoning for preferring the previous version.
The other one just *feels* more like a Favored Soul.
This newer one feels more like a divine sorcerer, but the older one feels more like an actual Favored Soul.

[jaappleton]

As someone playing the current Favored Soul I do like the idea of this one more but losing extra attack and having to spend spells known on the cleric spells now is kind of ugh.

Although you're no longer limited to the cleric domain for spells so I guess it's a decent trade off.

I actually greatly prefer this FS over the previous one. I REALLY miss Medium Armor proficiency, but getting access to both spell lists? Wow. I'll take that trade!

[jaappleton]

I wonder if this new Favored Soul replaces the Theurge from a previous UA?

[Hrugner]

Phoenix having so many things tied into it's 1 minute per day ability is a little disappointing.

[Kileonhardt]

I got the exact same vibe.

And... I kinda like it. Utilizing 13 + CON for AC means you can utilize either Dex or Strength for your weapons, making you less MAD. You'll still need 3 stats, but Shield proficiency helps shore up your AC a bit.

It's solid (Pun intended)!

13+ CON for AC means yay Abyssal Tiefling Sorcs. +1 HP from Abyssal and +1 HP from Stone means yay D6 isn't so rough anymore.

[Kileonhardt]

I actually greatly prefer this FS over the previous one. I REALLY miss Medium Armor proficiency, but getting access to both spell lists? Wow. I'll take that trade!

Yeah that's where I'm at on this current version. I'll miss having extra attack but the new flexibility, despite losing 2 free spells known per spell level, makes it worth it. Also the expertise to CHA checks means you're no longer a worse face than the bard!

[Mikal]

If you combine these two sentiments, you get my reasoning for preferring the previous version.
The other one just *feels* more like a Favored Soul.
This newer one feels more like a divine sorcerer, but the older one feels more like an actual Favored Soul.

If by favored you mean given lots of abilities that require no choices to be made on the PCs part to try and be a Gish while keeping full spellcasting... sure.


I actually greatly prefer this FS over the previous one. I REALLY miss Medium Armor proficiency, but getting access to both spell lists? Wow. I'll take that trade!

Oh yeah... didn't notice that at first, but you do get the entire Cleric (non-domain) spell list. Does give you a lot more flexibility when choosing spells, but keeps the balance of the Sorcerer's limited spell selection in place.

Also makes a Red Mage (FF style) much more simple, since you can just choose healing style spells with Sorcerer slots in addition to the standard arcane magic.

[deathadder99]

I gotta say the other favored soul was better. This one is just... bland. The cleric spell choice is better, but I'd rather have the medium armor, extra attack and the wings... :P I guess they're doing away with free bonus spells altogether which sucks but I get why.

[Belac93]

Dwarf stone sorcerer would be very thematic. And either +1 damage/to hit from mountain dwarves, or +1 hit point from hill dwarves. A hill dwarf stone sorcerer with 16 Constitution would have 11 hit points at level 1 and 18 AC with a shield. Not super good for a melee fighter, but then you see that they are gaining the same health per level as a human fighter with the same Constitution. Pretty damn sweet.

Although, I would probably go mountain dwarf, 14 Charisma, 16 Constitution and Strength, nothing else really matters. 18 AC, 10 hit points, and full spellcasting, from level 1. And smites are nice.

[Deleted]

Really interested to see what they do with a phoenix sorcerer :smallbiggrin:

I'm about to click on the link BUT there better be a reference to Jade Phoenix Mage...

[DracoKnight]

Okay, so after reading it, I have two favorites:

1) The Phoenix Soul. Finally I can have a non-draconic pyromaniac.

2) The Stone Sorcerer. YAY! Sword Mage for 5e :smallbiggrin:

I was worried that the Phoenix Soul was going to be another über-healing archetype like we've gotten in previous Unearthed Arcana, but I was pleasantly surprised. I am a little bit iffy about so many of their features being tied to their 1/day 1 minute ability, but it's so cool that I really kind of don't care that I only get it once per day. I'm more like: "I get to use this EVERY day?! :smallbiggrin:"

And it's about damn time we get a proper melee sorcerer. I'm loving this, and I want to make a metal bender from Avatar now.

[Giant2005]

Phoenix gets +Cha to fire damage rolls at lv1.

Bye bye Dragon Sorc.

Phoenix 1 / Undying Light 1 now grants double Charisma to fire, starting at level 2. Though the ability to do it (from the Phoenix perspective) is Long Rest dependent, it lasts 1 minute.

From the perspective of the abilities, it seems like Undying Light has become the Phoenix origin. Compare the lv6 abilities.

Dragon Sorc gets that damage bonus all day long, the Phoenix Sorc only gets it for 1 encounter per day. The Dragon Sorc is vastly superior in that regard. I actually think the Phoenix Sorc is quite a bit underpowered.

On the other end of the spectrum, the Stone Sorc is crazy OP.
Anyone without Heavy Armor and doesn't use Dex as their primary ability would be mad not to dip in to it for the ability to dump Dex. The reliable Reaction damage (that is even more powerful in single target combat than the SCAG Cantrips) at level 6 is also really unreasonable.
More than that though, that subclass makes the Sorcerer a top of the line melee fighter.
With two SCAG Cantrips, a third, more powerful version of a SCAG Cantrip, and up to an extra 20 damage from Stone's Edge per round; the Sorc outdamages basically anything in melee combat. At level 20, we are talking 82.8375 DPR against AC 20 while only using a crappy 1d8 weapon and no feat/racial bonuses. It can even achieve considerably more than that if the secondary procs of GFB or BB trigger. That is beyond unreasonable for a full caster. To put it in perspective, a level 20, Raging, Frenzying, Reckless Attacking, Great-Weapon Master-ing Barbarian with a Great-Axe only inflicts 65.14875 DPR against that same AC.

[Mikal]

Another interesting point: Favored Souls now essentially have expertise for all Charisma checks they're proficient with at 6th level, which should stack with Rogue expertise.

Nevermind on the double cha to saves and attacks. Just read the Sage Advice saying they are categorically separate items.

[DivisibleByZero]

I like the newer one. Old one basically said "Oh, you want to be a Sorcerer, but also want to have martial attacks and wear armor? Instead of multi-classing, here ya go! Oh, and we'll give you lots of bonus spells. No, you don't need to choose them, you just get them in addition! And wings, just because."


If by favored you mean given lots of abilities that require no choices to be made on the PCs part to try and be a Gish while keeping full spellcasting... sure.

Are you even familiar with what a Favored Soul was before 5e? Because your comments lead me to believe that you aren't.

[Nicrosil]

I like it! The new favored soul does seem a bit bland, though I guess that's supplemented with access to cleric spells. Also, you can totally make the Planeteers now.

While I love the Sea Sorcerer curse since it gives off huge Bloodborne vibes, I'm not sure I get it. From my understanding, it works like this: Once per turn, when you cast a spell that deals cold damage, lighting damage, or moves them, you can curse them with the appropriate curse. The curse then ends, unless the spell was a cantrip, in which case the curse lasts until the end of your next turn or you curse someone again. If I'm reading this right, then the cold curse is pointless on non-cantrip spells, or you do some shenanigans with readied actions. In fact, all of the curses are instantaneous, so why even make the whole cantrip vs spell distinction?

[Mikal]

Are you even familiar with what a Favored Soul was before 5e? Because your comments lead me to believe that you aren't.

Yes. I'm very familiar with it, having played DnD all the way back to 1e and having worked at WotC during the 3.5 era. But sacred cows aren't necessarily a good thing.

This has the same feeling of a Favored Soul (arcane caster with the spark of the divine allowing him to use magic differently than other sorcerers) without giving him a bunch of free abilities that would require him to mutliclass or sacrifice elsewhere to achieve.

[Byke]

Extremely Disappointing....Not much more to say. I know my table will not bother with the new FS, as they completely gutted it.

I will concede that they did a great job with the flavor though.

[Llama513]

The wording on the curses for sea sorcery is weird, do they only work for cantrips, or do they only last until the end of your next turn if you use a cantrip

[Kileonhardt]

At level 20, we are talking 82.8375 DPR against AC 20 while only using a crappy 1d8 weapon and no feat/racial bonuses. It can even achieve considerably more than that if the secondary procs of GFB or BB trigger. That is beyond unreasonable for a full caster. To put it in perspective, a level 20, Raging, Frenzying, Reckless Attacking, Great-Weapon Master-ing Barbarian with a Great-Axe only inflicts 65.14875 DPR against that same AC.

Stone Sorc's get Martial Proficiency though so you're going GFB/BB with Great-Axe + GWM on top of all those calculations already. Seems prettttyy good.

[jaappleton]

Dragon Sorc gets that damage bonus all day long, the Phoenix Sorc only gets it for 1 encounter per day. The Dragon Sorc is vastly superior in that regard. I actually think the Phoenix Sorc is quite a bit underpowered.

On the other end of the spectrum, the Stone Sorc is crazy OP.
Anyone without Heavy Armor and doesn't use Dex as their primary ability would be mad not to dip in to it for the ability to dump Dex. The reliable Reaction damage (that is even more powerful in single target combat than the SCAG Cantrips) at level 6 is also really unreasonable.
More than that though, that subclass makes the Sorcerer a top of the line melee fighter.
With two SCAG Cantrips, a third, more powerful version of a SCAG Cantrip, and up to an extra 20 damage from Stone's Edge per round; the Sorc outdamages basically anything in melee combat. At level 20, we are talking 82.8375 DPR against AC 20 while only using a crappy 1d8 weapon and no feat/racial bonuses. It can even achieve considerably more than that if the secondary procs of GFB or BB trigger. That is beyond unreasonable for a full caster. To put it in perspective, a level 20, Raging, Frenzying, Reckless Attacking, Great-Weapon Master-ing Barbarian with a Great-Axe only inflicts 65.14875 DPR against that same AC.

Yeah I started typing before I re-read the Phoenix Sorc. That's on me, I jumped the gun a bit. Though the Phoenix is damn good all around. I wonder if it's competitive with Dragon outside that long rest ability, though.

A VOLO's Aasimar + Phoenix Sorc... hmm. It needs a turn to fire up, but would be devastating.

[JumboWheat01]

Okay, now this is full of things I like. I love the new Favored Soul, it feels much more balanced compared to the old one, and with Phoenix, Sea and Stone, including Storm from SCAG, we now have all four elements for Elemental Origins, and each one has its own flavor.

Very, very interesting UA. I look forward to giving them a swing some time in the future.

[Zaq]

Phoenix having so many things tied into it's 1 minute per day ability is a little disappointing.

Is it surprising, though? The 5e devs are pretty much terrified of anything interesting being usable on a regular basis.

[Deleted]

Favored Soul: Not bad but nothing that really stands out as new or exciting. This is my favorite favored soul so far but it still seems lack luster.

Phoenix Mage: As a DM, I will houseful that the flames don"t hurt your allies. Playing this dude is worse team work than a chaos mage! Talk about TPK potential.

Sea Sorcerer: Curse of the sea is what metamagic should have been. Or at least close to it. This might be my favorite sorcerer so far and it will be used to recreate other sorcerers in the future. Being able to turn into liquid will be interesting.

Stone Sorcerer: I like that Tome of Battle/4e Swordmage is coming back! Howevet I think this needs to be adjusted a bit. I don't like the force damage, honestly it just makes it seem weird and as a way to get around dealing non-magical damage. Force damage should be Bludgeoning or Piercing (as the ground or rocks are shown to do this in many other mediums). There is a lot of potential here!

My Ranking (that no one cares about)
1: Sea Sorcery
2: Stone Sorcery
3: Favored Soul
5: Pheonix Sorcery

I feel like a Variant Human Sea Sorcerer is going to be playtested soon...

I also really want to run a Mountain Dwarf Stone Sorcery Sorcerer that runs around naked. Hell, a Hill Dwarf Stone Sorcerer would be mad awesome, you essentially have a d10 hit die!



Edit======


Is it surprising, though? The 5e devs are pretty much terrified of anything interesting being usable on a regular basis.

Except for cantrip... Lol

But seriously, this is a bog problem for me and a lot of people I know. Which is why I wpuld love to see the system just go full at-will/encounter based. The game already made a short rest an hour long, this is extremely scary in a middle of a dungeon or siege!

Having HP tied to long rest (as it is) and everything else tied to short rest or at-will would be downright amazing and not have to slog through countless "I attack".

[Kileonhardt]

My Ranking (that no one cares about)
1: Sea Sorcery
2: Stone Sorcery
3: Favored Soul
5: Pheonix Sorcery


Mine would be
1: Stone Sorcery
2: Favored Soul
3: Sea Sorcery
4: Phoenix Sorcery

Phoenix being tied to 1/LR really kills it for me. Could have at least made it scale like CD.

[DracoKnight]

Mine would be
1: Stone Sorcery
2: Favored Soul
3: Sea Sorcery
4: Phoenix Sorcery

Phoenix being tied to 1/LR really kills it for me. Could have at least made it scale like CD.

Or made it CHA mod/long rest.

[DivisibleByZero]

Yes. I'm very familiar with it, having played DnD all the way back to 1e and having worked at WotC during the 3.5 era. But sacred cows aren't necessarily a good thing.

This has the same feeling of a Favored Soul (arcane caster with the spark of the divine allowing him to use magic differently than other sorcerers) without giving him a bunch of free abilities that would require him to mutliclass or sacrifice elsewhere to achieve.

....except for the small little detail that this description is not what a Favored Soul is or ever was.
So like I said, the older one *feels* more like a FS.

[Joe the Rat]

Looking at the Phoenix, is 1 minute, 1/day sufficient for Mantle of Flame, all the way up? Is it that powerful compared to the rest (including all day Draconic, insane Wild, and the mix of rest and at-wills available here)? You get a Phoenix Zombie Fortitude with Explosion 1/day (enhanced if your other feature is active) at 6, fire spell healing at 14, and awesome transformation at 18 that uses your Mantle use for the day. Maybe not per short rest, but adding an additional use (at 6 or 14 by archetype features, but I think it fits reasonably at 10) - with a tweak to Form of the Phoenix to only be usable with Mantle, 1/Long Rest. Or perhaps make Form Of a second use of mantle that includes the transformation.

Edit: CHAmod per day (min 1) might work, but I almost fear too much at front. Form of the Phoenix, however, really ought to stay 1/day. That fits with the other transformational capstones.

[RickAllison]

Another interesting point: Favored Souls now essentially have expertise for all Charisma checks they're proficient with at 6th level, which should stack with Rogue expertise.

In addition to Charisma saving throws... not that there's a lot.
Now the question is, does Charisma check also count for Save DCs and attacks if they have a Charisma based Shillelagh? It does say

Saving throws and attack rolls are not checks. Checks are the third d20 set, comprised of skills, tools, and straight ability checks. If Jack of All Trades does not apply for those rolls, this ability doesn't affect it either.

My favorites are the Sea and Stone. They both feel like they go all day long with their archetypes, while Pheonix only hulks out once per day. Sea works really well with multiclassing. Use Eldritch Blast to set up the curses (how appropriate...), then swoop in and use your cold/lightning cantrips or leveled spells when they benefit from the curse. I really love the level 14 ability, as it is something unlike any other archetype can do.

[Kileonhardt]

Or made it CHA mod/long rest.

At that point it may as well be a permanent ability though. 3/LR at lower levels to 5/LR at mid levels would be way too much.

[DracoKnight]

At that point it may as well be a permanent ability though. 3/LR at lower levels to 5/LR at mid levels would be way too much.

True. So I'd probably give an additional use at 6th level, and again at 17th level.

[Puh Laden]

I like it! The new favored soul does seem a bit bland, though I guess that's supplemented with access to cleric spells. Also, you can totally make the Planeteers now.

While I love the Sea Sorcerer curse since it gives off huge Bloodborne vibes, I'm not sure I get it. From my understanding, it works like this: Once per turn, when you cast a spell that deals cold damage, lighting damage, or moves them, you can curse them with the appropriate curse. The curse then ends, unless the spell was a cantrip, in which case the curse lasts until the end of your next turn or you curse someone again. If I'm reading this right, then the cold curse is pointless on non-cantrip spells, or you do some shenanigans with readied actions. In fact, all of the curses are instantaneous, so why even make the whole cantrip vs spell distinction?
You use an applicable cantrip to mark a creature with a curse (like hunter's mark). If you cast an applicable spell on a creature that is already cursed you can activate the curse. If the activating spell isn't a cantrip you have to re-curse them before you can activate the curse again.

[Kileonhardt]

I wonder if with Sea curses could you end up hitting with Eldritch blast to curse with the first hit and then push it back the extra 15 on the second hit. Could be an interesting way to keep a melee threat out of the fight for a little while.

[Mikal]

....except for the small little detail that this description is not what a Favored Soul is or ever was.
So like I said, the older one *feels* more like a FS.

I should have clarified.

Has the feel of the Favored Soul in relation to how they want to use it within the 5e framework, i.e. an arcane caster with a spark of the divine, etc. etc.

[Hawkstar]

The Phoenix sorcerer needs Mantle of Flame usage to progress like Barbarian Rage - start with two uses at 1, and go more frequently from there, making it a Pyromaniacal Rage Mage.

[Llama513]

You use an applicable cantrip to mark a creature with a curse (like hunter's mark). If you cast an applicable spell on a creature that is already cursed you can activate the curse. If the activating spell isn't a cantrip you have to re-curse them before you can activate the curse again.

Thank you for clarifying how that works

[Joe the Rat]

You use an applicable cantrip to mark a creature with a curse (like hunter's mark). If you cast an applicable spell on a creature that is already cursed you can activate the curse. If the activating spell isn't a cantrip you have to re-curse them before you can use the curse again.

It's really convoluted wording. It took me a couple reads to get the gist, and I still missed the "spam cantrips to keep curse rolling" angle. 20 foot gusts! Almost useful now!

[lesbiasparrow]

How would you build a Stone Sorcadin?

[Flashy]

I love the sea Sorcerer, and am pleased that they clearly thought about the Ray of Frost interaction!

Edited because I initially missed the note about choosing whichever movement reduction was larger

[ad_hoc]

I like them for the most part. The new favoured soul is much better designed than the old one so that's good.

I'm not big on the sea theme. We already have the Storm Sorcerer who specializes in lightning and thunder magic.

Why do we now have a sea sorcerer with lightning and cold?

I would prefer a different water theme and focusing on acid and poison. Giving Poison Spray a boost is a good idea.

[clash]

How would you build a Stone Sorcadin?

I think the idea is that you no longer need to. You get weapon and shield proficiency and don't need the armor. And you get a bunch of smite spells/weapon buffing spells to choose.

[DivisibleByZero]

I should have clarified.

Has the feel of the Favored Soul in relation to how they want to use it within the 5e framework, i.e. an arcane caster with a spark of the divine, etc. etc.

That then becomes a fair point. But it still doesn't feel like a Favored Soul should in my eyes. The older version felt much better to me. I guess it's the name. Had they given it a different name I'd probably be much happier with it than I am.
Kind of like exactly what they did with the Swordmage Stone Sorceror.

[Kileonhardt]

How would you build a Stone Sorcadin?

Mountain Dwarf
Sorcerer 18 / Paladin 2

Prioritize Con and Str to 20, then whatever feats are applicable. Take buff spells rather than damage since you're going to have lowish CHA.

Personally I wouldn't even go Paladin anymore. Divine Smite while good is no longer needed.

[Deleted]

I wonder if with Sea curses could you end up hitting with Eldritch blast to curse with the first hit and then push it back the extra 15 on the second hit. Could be an interesting way to keep a melee threat out of the fight for a little while.

I feel like two levels of Warlock get you 10' per beam already. An extra 5' isn't gonna change much.

Though watery defense and shifting form really help the Sealock get away *if* the melee threat gets close.


Edit
=======


Mountain Dwarf
Sorcerer 18 / Paladin 2

Prioritize Con and Str to 20, then whatever feats are applicable. Take buff spells rather than damage since you're going to have lowish CHA.

I would actually go Barbarian 2 before I went Paladin.

I would max out Con but not Str. Leave Str at 16 and pick up Reckless Attack.

Then I can boost my Cha and be a martial/caster switch hitter.


Raging Teleports! You aren't casting a spell or concentrating! RAGING TELEPORTS WE HAVE A RAGE MAGE.

[Kileonhardt]

I feel like two levels of Warlock get you 10' per beam already. An extra 5' isn't gonna change much.

Though watery defense and shifting form really help the Sealock get away *if* the melee threat gets close.

Well it's 35 total on 2 beams with curse, pushing a lot of things out of threat of your party. It's definitely hard to give up Devil's Sight in the multiclass but it could be something to do now.

[Kileonhardt]

I would actually go Barbarian 2 before I went Paladin.

I would max out Con but not Str. Leave Str at 16 and pick up Reckless Attack.

Then I can boost my Cha and be a martial/caster switch hitter.


Raging Teleports! You aren't casting a spell or concentrating! RAGING TELEPORTS WE HAVE A RAGE MAGE.

Aaaand now I know what my next character will be. I agree I'd go something else before Paladin now. Stone covers so much that Paladin really isn't needed anymore.

[jaappleton]

Hmm... I'm just thinking of this.

What Metamagic shenanigans can a Favored Soul do now, with access to the total Cleric spell list? Twinned Banishment?

Likewise, what can a Stone Sorc do?




I also think Stone is going to be the go-to for Warlock/Sorc multiclassers. Lets you focus strictly on Charisma and Con without worrying about Dex at all for AC, and frees up the Armor of Shadows invocation.

[Plaguescarred]

Interesting stuff Stone Sorcery has dwarf written all over it!

[Sception]

IMO stone sorcerer is better Fighter 2 / Sorcerer 18 or Paladin 2 / Sorcerer 18. You don't get the ASI's for three stats, letting cha languish as a sorcerer doesn't seem like the best move even if you can spend some spells on buffs.

Picking up divine smite would be nice - none of those smite spells are terribly good, and nearly all of them allow saves so, again, letting cha languish doesn't work well with them.

The free hit points are nice, though. And the con AC seems like a nice fallback if you're ambushed while sleeping and don't have time to don armor.

If the rest of the abilities didn't lean on melee attacks a Con/Cha build would be great, but as it is?


Still my favorite of these origins, though. I'm not sure teleporting around willy nilly is how I see a stone themed character, I would have figured rooted to a spot would be more their thing, but whatever, I like the mechanics.

[Nicrosil]

You use an applicable cantrip to mark a creature with a curse (like hunter's mark). If you cast an applicable spell on a creature that is already cursed you can activate the curse. If the activating spell isn't a cantrip you have to re-curse them before you can activate the curse again.

Oooh, okay, so it takes 2 rounds to set up and activate a curse, unless you spam cantrips? Let me get this straight.

Round 1, you cast a cantrip like eldritch blast. Target takes normal effects, and is cursed. Round 2, you cast lightning bolt. The target takes the normal effects, and the effects of the lightning curse, and the curse ends.

Alternatively, round 1, cast shocking grasp. Target takes normal effects, and is cursed. Round 2, cast shocking grasp. Target takes normal effects, and the effects of the lightning curse, and the curse refreshes until the end of your next turn?

Of course, this is all assuming you don't use quicken or twinned spells or anything.

[Kileonhardt]

I also think Stone is going to be the go-to for Warlock/Sorc multiclassers. Lets you focus strictly on Charisma and Con without worrying about Dex at all for AC, and frees up the Armor of Shadows invocation.

Stone might be the go-to dip for any caster really. 13 + Con instead of Draconic/Mage Armoring for 13 + Dex just feels way better. Hell I might even consider 13 + Con good enough for a dip while playing Barbarian, and definitely for Druid.

As for Sorlocks, I think Sea ends up being better there due to Watery Defense. Even more so when you can play the EB dpr game and add more control on top of that.

[Mikal]

That then becomes a fair point. But it still doesn't feel like a Favored Soul should in my eyes. The older version felt much better to me. I guess it's the name. Had they given it a different name I'd probably be much happier with it than I am.
Kind of like exactly what they did with the Swordmage Stone Sorceror.

I can totally understand that. Using the old names does trigger certain things, and in the context you mentioned it does make a lot more sense vs. my initial feeling which was "Why did they get rid of all the awesome free stuff the last version had??"
Apologies on assuming.

[Byke]

Hmm... I'm just thinking of this.

What Metamagic shenanigans can a Favored Soul do now, with access to the total Cleric spell list? Twinned Banishment?



Banishment is on the Sorc spell list. Any sorcerer with Twin metamagic can do this....

[Sception]

The Favored Soul is much less 'become an avenging angel with wings and melee competence' and much more 'here's a party face specialized sorcerer with access to cleric spells'. It's not bad, a bit bland maybe but not terrible, especially in a heavily social campaign, but it's not the same concept, at all.

[Drackolus]

The stone sorcerer got me more excited than I thought it would. Consider that tying ac to con means you can use shillelagh and be a wis/cha gish. A 3 level warlock dip for cha shillelagh is a lvl 4 character that relies exclusively on cha and con.
Stone sorcadin sounds super rad. Since the heavy armor isn't necessary, you can take paladin second and keep con saves from going sorc first. Unfortunately, it would make you MORE mad since you would want to pump con too. I would probably do sorc 1/war 3/ pal 2/ sorc x. However, that means you would want to be a race that pumps cha and con (probably vuman as usual. Warcaster seems extra nice on a stone sorc.)
Sea sort of feels like a warlock patron.
I like the new fs, but I miss the armor and especially the WINGS. I love wings. You could arguably swap in the old 14 feature without significantly changing the balance. Multiattack isn't as crucial when you have bb/gfb on your native spell list.
Pheonix may be the ultimate boss killer. Also SCORCHING FREAKING RAY. If you could hex a target beforehand... Maybe hex/eb on turn 1, then mantle of flame/scorching ray turn 2, then quicken eb/main action scorching ray until the boss is dead. Investiture of flame can stack onto the "don"t touch me" too. Using that and quickened scorching rays sounds fun, and the classic dropping fireballs at your feet while immune to fire would be nice. Warlock dip still sounds too good to pass up, especially since you wouldn't have good repeatable damage options otherwise.

Oh: and strong metamagic/cleric spell combos. GO.

Afterthought: this fs can pick cleric cantrips too. Sacred flame and guidance sounds cool. It sounds to me like this can be used on character generation also. Sacred flame is a damn good cantrip.

[Joe the Rat]

Still my favorite of these origins, though. I'm not sure teleporting around willy nilly is how I see a stone themed character, I would have figured rooted to a spot would be more their thing, but whatever, I like the mechanics.
Based on the "same surface" requirement, I think the idea is you drop into the ground, "Earth Stride," then pop up next to your target, possibly delivering an uppercut (for additional force damage) as you shoot up out of the ground.
Yeah, rooting makes more sense to me as well.

[Syll]

Still my favorite of these origins, though. I'm not sure teleporting around willy nilly is how I see a stone themed character, I would have figured rooted to a spot would be more their thing, but whatever, I like the mechanics.

Because it specifies being on the same surface to be able to tele, i think the implication is that you are moving through the ground/stone, which seems flavor appropriate

Edit: late to the party, Joe got there first

[jaappleton]

As far as pure spellcasting goes, the new Favored Soul is my favorite in the game now. You have two full spell lists, and Metamagic, which literally breaks the rules of spellcasting. What's not to love there?

[Kileonhardt]

Afterthought: this fs can pick cleric cantrips too. Sacred flame and guidance sounds cool. It sounds to me like this can be used on character generation also. Sacred flame is a damn good cantrip.

You're missing the most important thing on here. THAUMATURGY! Who doesn't love that cantrip :smallbiggrin:


As far as pure spellcasting goes, the new Favored Soul is my favorite in the game now. You have two full spell lists, and Metamagic, which literally breaks the rules of spellcasting. What's not to love there?

It is pretty nice. Though with how limited Sorc known spells already are, having two spell lists makes it that much harder.

[Maxilian]

Dragon Sorc gets that damage bonus all day long, the Phoenix Sorc only gets it for 1 encounter per day. The Dragon Sorc is vastly superior in that regard. I actually think the Phoenix Sorc is quite a bit underpowered.

On the other end of the spectrum, the Stone Sorc is crazy OP.
Anyone without Heavy Armor and doesn't use Dex as their primary ability would be mad not to dip in to it for the ability to dump Dex. The reliable Reaction damage (that is even more powerful in single target combat than the SCAG Cantrips) at level 6 is also really unreasonable.
More than that though, that subclass makes the Sorcerer a top of the line melee fighter.
With two SCAG Cantrips, a third, more powerful version of a SCAG Cantrip, and up to an extra 20 damage from Stone's Edge per round; the Sorc outdamages basically anything in melee combat. At level 20, we are talking 82.8375 DPR against AC 20 while only using a crappy 1d8 weapon and no feat/racial bonuses. It can even achieve considerably more than that if the secondary procs of GFB or BB trigger. That is beyond unreasonable for a full caster. To put it in perspective, a level 20, Raging, Frenzying, Reckless Attacking, Great-Weapon Master-ing Barbarian with a Great-Axe only inflicts 65.14875 DPR against that same AC.


I really like the Stone Sorc, but i don't think is OP at all, also you're under the false assumption that you're going to be using your Stone Aegis reaction every turn, and lets be real, it won't happen

[Giant2005]

The Stone Sorc is so ridiculously OP that it probably isn't a good idea to multiclass with it (unless just dipping it for the AC), but it has so much synergy with the Guardian Ranger that it is pretty tempting not to.
The individual parts might be OP enough to make multiclassing either seem like a bad idea, but the sum of the parts is still probably greater still.

[Maxilian]

Interesting stuff Stone Sorcery has dwarf written all over it!

And Genasi... Though i'm mostly looking at it with a Fire Genasi (CON based cantrip) i have been wanting to make a CON based character, and THIS IS MY CHANCE!

[jaappleton]

You're missing the most important thing on here. THAUMATURGY! Who doesn't love that cantrip :smallbiggrin:



It is pretty nice. Though with how limited Sorc known spells already are, having two spell lists makes it that much harder.

Although it is limited to the Sorcerer spells known, the standard Sorc list has terrible offensive based Concentration spells at early levels. Adding Spirit Guardians, and the Con-free Spiritual Weapon to the list is amazing. You get to cherry pick the best spells available on arguably the two best spell lists (Cleric for early levels, Sorc for later levels).

I mean, Sunbeam might be my favorite spell in the game. Finally, the whole game, I can have a Holy themed spellcaster from start to finish. (I know Druid gets it, but that's way more Nature mage)

[Kileonhardt]

Although it is limited to the Sorcerer spells known, the standard Sorc list has terrible offensive based Concentration spells at early levels. Adding Spirit Guardians, and the Con-free Spiritual Weapon to the list is amazing. You get to cherry pick the best spells available on arguably the two best spell lists (Cleric for early levels, Sorc for later levels).

I mean, Sunbeam might be my favorite spell in the game. Finally, the whole game, I can have a Holy themed spellcaster from start to finish. (I know Druid gets it, but that's way more Nature mage)

Yeah I guess my thought on that was the old FS already got both guardians and weapon so it definitely feels hard with the low spells known.

I'm probably overthinking it because my DM is letting me swap to the new FS (because I like the flexibility more than the old one) so turning my current 22 spells into 12 spells is blowing my brain up.

[Giant2005]

I really like the Stone Sorc, but i don't think is OP at all, also you're under the false assumption that you're going to be using your Stone Aegis reaction every turn, and lets be real, it won't happen

Even without it you are looking at 58.95 DPR (more if you use a better than 1d8 weapon, the procs of BB/GFB trigger, you have feats or racial damage bonuses) and that is far too close to the balls-to-the-wall Barbarian (top of the damage charts) for a full spellcaster.
Stone's Edge needs to be a 1x day ability, and the Reaction part of Stone Aegis needs to use your Bonus Action instead of Reaction.

[Deleted]

The Stone Sorc is so ridiculously OP that it probably isn't a good idea to multiclass with it (unless just dipping it for the AC), but it has so much synergy with the Guardian Ranger that it is pretty tempting not to.
The individual parts might be OP enough to make multiclassing either seem like a bad idea, but the sum of the parts is still probably greater still.

Multiclassing is a bad idea for anyone who likes balance so I'm ok with new stuff being OP with multiclassing.

Barbarian/Rogue reckless attacks are considered by many to be OP. Especially when you add in Champion 3 and more Rogue... I don't but many do.

At least Stone Sorcerer gives you cool stuff!

[Drackolus]

Compiling some fs metamagic options:
Twinned guiding bolt followed by quickened attack cantrip. With good dex, you could gfb one and hit another for free (utilizing your advantage on the first target).
Twinned revivify/raise dead: two resurrections for the price of one.
Twinned shield of faith: maybe better than bless? Probably not.
Twinned command: two prones are better than one.
Twinned healing word: clutch saves
Heightened banishment. Self explanitory.
Extended Spirit Guardians: I argue it would not make it be 30 ft, but YMMV.

Incidentally, this gives sorcerer access to animate dead and create undead. Not shabby spells.

Twinned seems like a real winner at first glance to me. Don't forget you still get twinned haste. A twinned haste using real healer! What fun.

[jaappleton]

Compiling some fs metamagic options:
Twinned guiding bolt followed by quickened attack cantrip. With good dex, you could gfb one and hit another for free (utilizing your advantage on the first target).
Twinned revivify/raise dead: two resurrections for the price of one.
Twinned shield of faith: maybe better than bless? Probably not.
Twinned command: two prones are better than one.
Twinned healing word: clutch saves
Heightened banishment. Self explanitory.
Extended Spirit Guardians: I argue it would not make it be 30 ft, but YMMV.

Incidentally, this gives sorcerer access to animate dead and create undead. Not shabby spells.

Twinned seems like a real winner at first glance to me. Don't forget you still get twinned haste. A twinned haste using real healer! What fun.

Yeah, I am WAY too excited about a Cleric with Metamagic. Because that's essentially what the new FS is. Though you lack the Cleric's armor proficiencies, which... Sucks, it really does. But at early levels, twinning Guiding Bolt? At early levels, that spell HURTS! It scales terribly, but early levels, it rules.

[King539]

How would you build a Stone Sorcadin?

Looks a bit redundant, but... Gastronomie, get on it!

[Drackolus]

And Genasi... Though i'm mostly looking at it with a Fire Genasi (CON based cantrip) i have been wanting to make a CON based character, and THIS IS MY CHANCE!

You could be a lava sorcerer!
The reaction would be weaker, but hey, you can hold your staff and still make the attack. It would work. Hard to argue with scaling your attacks, health, and ac all on one stat.

[Giant2005]

Another good combination is Stone Sorc 19/Undying Light Warlock 1.
Each round you are looking at 2 GFBs of: weapon damage + 3d8 + 19 plus a third attack of either: weapon damage + 3d10 +5 from Stone Aegis, or 2d10 + 14 from a level 1 Hellish Rebuke.

[Twelvetrees]

I could be overestimating its usefulness, but Sea Sorcery's Watery Defense seems like it might be a little strong. Reducing damage by sorcerer level plus your Charisma score and allowing you to move 30 feet 1/rest allows for quite a bit of staying power.

[Giant2005]

I could be overestimating its usefulness, but Sea Sorcery's Watery Defense seems like it might be a little strong. Reducing damage by sorcerer level plus your Charisma score and allowing you to move 30 feet 1/rest allows for quite a bit of staying power.

It is once per rest.
I'd much rather have Uncanny Dodge.

[Kileonhardt]

It is once per long rest.
I'd much rather have Uncanny Dodge.

Did they change it? From the PDF I opened when it first went up Watery Defense is short or long rest.

[Giant2005]

Did they change it? From the PDF I opened when it first went up Watery Defense is short or long rest.

You are right - it is a short rest. It doesn't really change much though.

[DivisibleByZero]

It is once per long rest.
I'd much rather have Uncanny Dodge.

Short or long rest.
It's great, but it's once per rest. I'd rather have UD as well.

[daltonispanda]

Strongly considering dipping my Moon Druid into Stone Sorc just so I'm not dependent on Barkskin and can free up my concentration.

[Oramac]

My thoughts.

Favored Soul: I like it. It seems more balanced than the previous version, and having access to the full cleric spell list is really flavorful. Favored by the Gods is a nice little boost to help avoid the rare save-or-suck spell that gets thrown at you. Divine purity is interesting. Kinda makes a Volo's Yuan-Ti FS pointless, but it's still a really neat idea.

Phoenix: I like the Quirks they came up with. Great flavor for the class. Mantle of Flames is good, but seems very limiting in that the whole archetype revolves around it, but it's a long rest feature. Still, it's a cool looking Sorc.

Sea: Soul of the Sea is, again, great flavor, and potentially very useful in a maritime campaign. Curse of the Sea is neat, but the wording desperately needs to be cleaned up. It is very confusing as written. Watery Defense is interesting. You can reduce damage by your sorc level plus your charisma SCORE, not modifier. That's potentially 40 damage reduced at 20th level. Pretty darn good, I'd say. And I'd venture that it's even better at low levels. Reducing B/P/S damage by 17 (with a 16 cha) at 1st level is incredibly powerful, and it only goes up from there. It is on a short rest though, which kinda balances it out, but it's still incredibly useful.

Stone: Hell yes. Metal Magic is cool. I like how it allows you to learn other spells, but doesn't explicitly give them to you. Stone's Durability is weird though. It takes an action to activate, but basically lasts indefinitely. Wouldn't it be better to just say "your AC is 13+Con while you are not incapacitated and not wearing armor other than a shield"?

My favorites:

1. Stone
2. Favored Soul
3. Phoenix
4. Sea

[Maxilian]

You could be a lava sorcerer!
The reaction would be weaker, but hey, you can hold your staff and still make the attack. It would work. Hard to argue with scaling your attacks, health, and ac all on one stat.

I may use DEX as my (weapon attack damage -Second stat in general-) and would dump CHA (Not the best for a Sorcerer but i will survive) and will take 1 lvl in Rune Master (Fire Rune) to help me with my damage (2 rolls for my fire damage attacks and spells -Including my weapon attacks-) and will give me a way to spend my spell slots for damage without having to worry about my lack of CHA (And just use some of those non-stat based spells -Not like Sorcerer have many options but they have-)

[Twelvetrees]

It is once per long rest.
I'd much rather have Uncanny Dodge.

Sure, Uncanny Dodge is better, but the only ability that sorcerers have that functions in a similar defensive manner to Watery Defense is Wild Magic's Bend Luck ability--and that can prevent attacks from hitting and is reliant on Sorcery Points.

I would make the argument that Watery Defense is better (than Bend Luck) since it triggers once you've already been hit. And while the damage must be slashing, piercing, or bludgeoning, those damage types aren't exactly rare.

[Maxilian]

Strongly considering dipping my Moon Druid into Stone Sorc just so I'm not dependent on Barkskin and can free up my concentration.

Also this, having in mind that most beast forms have a nice CON and not so nice the others (some -normally small creatures- have a better DEX but those are not many and also not the prefered option)

[Temperjoke]

Just my opinions:

Favored Soul - I like that it's more restrained than the first attempt. Giving a Sorcerer a bigger spell list to choose from is more balanced then giving them a bigger amount of spells known. It also allows for more meaningful choices, like picking a healing spell at level up because your party has had survival issues, as opposed to finding a different type of damage spell. I think Blessed Countenance is underwhelming for a 6th level class ability, though, since in theory you should already have a fairly easy time with Cha checks as it is.

Phoenix Soul - This one seems fairly balanced. I think that if the abilities were renewed on both a short or long rest, they'd be too overpowered. I don't know that I like the Mantle being ended immediately if you use Phoenix Spark though. I get why they did that, since you get bonus damage for the Mantle being active it's like you're consuming the Mantle for the extra damage. It might be better if you had the choice to use up the Mantle for extra damage, or keep the Mantle and get the weaker version of Phoenix Spark.

Sea Sorcery - This one seems a little on the weak side. Curse of the Sea seems really strong at first, but then this sorcerer doesn't get any other damage boosters and the curse is only maintained with cantrips, which helps inhibit your spell choices depending on the circumstances. The rest of the abilities seem a little underwhelming, although they do help your chances of survival, the sorcerer HP pool is so low that even reduced damage has a good chance to kill you. And that's only for melee-style attacks, aside from fire damage resistance, you get no other real saving boosts. The extra mobility can be nice though.

Stone Sorcery - This one is definitely for people who want a melee sorcerer. My only concern is that the armor and HP might be on the low side to sit in melee for too long. I can see casting Stone Aegis on a melee combat character, like a rogue, since you know they'll be attacked. It saves movement for you, or at least allows you to help cover a bigger area, since you'll be able to move to support the party member when they get attacked. So, your turn you cast Aegis on the rogue, the rogue attacks an enemy, the enemy's turn, they attack the rogue, you teleport there and attack, and if the enemy is still alive, the rogue gets a damage bonus on his next turn. I'd consider MC this with a valor bard for the extra attacks while keeping spell casting synergy.

[EvilAnagram]

I love that we finally get a proper Swordmage without multiclassing!!

The Favored Soul is definitely bland. I'm glad they did away with the extra spells in favor of expanding the spell list, but the medium armor and weapons proficiencies were nice for those who cared about that sort of thing.

[jaappleton]

I'm still convinced that more spells are coming in the next book. I've been convinced of that for a long time, since the Light, Dark, Undersark! article. The tip off to me was that Undying Light Warlocks only got one bonus spell per spell level, as opposed to everything else that gets two. I figure they're placeholders.

With that said, I think that new cantrips are coming as part of those spells. If I'm correct, Sea Origin might go from 'meh' to 'Holy balls this is great!', depending on those cantrips.

[DracoKnight]

I'm still convinced that more spells are coming in the next book. I've been convinced of that for a long time, since the Light, Dark, Undersark! article. The tip off to me was that Undying Light Warlocks only got one bonus spell per spell level, as opposed to everything else that gets two. I figure they're placeholders.

With that said, I think that new cantrips are coming as part of those spells. If I'm correct, Sea Origin might go from 'meh' to 'Holy balls this is great!', depending on those cantrips.

I'm 100% in agreement with you.

[Drackolus]

I may use DEX as my (weapon attack damage -Second stat in general-) and would dump CHA (Not the best for a Sorcerer but i will survive) and will take 1 lvl in Rune Master (Fire Rune) to help me with my damage (2 rolls for my fire damage attacks and spells -Including my weapon attacks-) and will give me a way to spend my spell slots for damage without having to worry about my lack of CHA (And just use some of those non-stat based spells -Not like Sorcerer have many options but they have-)

Magic Missile doesn't use your casting stat. Neither does animate objects. Haste and greater invis can eat up all your 3rd and 4th slots. Misty step and mirror image are fine 2nd level options. Globe of Invulnerability for 6th, teleport for 7th, power word stun for 8th, and wish for 9th.
All a non-cha sorcerer needs is a repeatable resourceless action.
I like the idea of pumping up to 20 con and grabbing utility feats like Healer and Warcaster. Crossbow master lets you produce flame in melee range. Ritual Caster:Wizard is great, though 13 int or wis is required (fire genasi DO get a +1 to int).
If you have warcaster, you can shotgun-blast people with magic missile.

[rollingForInit]

So, do you add Dexterity to the new base AC that the stone Sorcerer gets? The wording is conspicuously different from the Draconic Sorcerer, and the Monk, where it says that your AC in general becomes 13+ Dexterity modifier.

[DivisibleByZero]

So, do you add Dexterity to the new base AC that the stone Sorcerer gets? The wording is conspicuously different from the Draconic Sorcerer, and the Monk, where it says that your AC in general becomes 13+ Dexterity modifier.

Nope.
Read it again.
It uses a new calculation, just like pretty much every other AC calc in the game barring Bladesinger's bonus.
It's Mage Armor, but you add your Con instead of your Dex.

[Bugado25]

My thoughts

Certainly better designed than the last one, but I miss the access to melee capabilities. This one plays completely different than the last one. It fits the need for a charismatic priest, but it is not a favored Soul.

Divine Magic: Fixes one of the problems of the last version. It is powerful, but not OP considering the extreme limitation on sorcerer’s spells known.

Supernatural Resilience: Extra HP is always good, but the reason favored souls needed more HP was because they wanted to go melee. If you remove all armor and weapons, this become kind of pointless.

Favored by the Gods: Nothing to say about it. Mechanically is fine but it is not really flavorful neither fells necessary.

Blessed Countenance: Very powerful and with an interesting flavor. I like it.

Divine Purity: The only rotten apple in this archetype. It is mainly a highly ignorable ribbon. Make it only immunity to diseases and add something else. I want my wings back.

Unearthly Recovery: Nothing impressive but it does the job.

To make it more in line with the last version this is what I would do:

Remove Favored by the gods, add simple (maybe martial) weapons and light and medium armor (no shields). Blessed Countenance could turn back to Extra Attack or something that supports the use of GFB or BB, and Divine purity back to wings. I would not mind having two versions of a Divine Sorcerer. The Favored Soul from this UA with another name and an actual Favored Soul with melee capabilities.

Interesting Flavor but bad mechanics. It is almost completely based on a once per long rest ability. And not even a powerful one.

Ignite: You can ignite flammable stuff. Like you can already do with fire bolt. Unless I am missing something, this ability is kind of pointless. It can stay as it is just a ribbon.

Mantle of Flame: Once per long rest you can fell to have a subclass. It must become at least once per short rest to be useful.

Phoenix Spark: Interesting and cool. But again only once per long rest. Now you can feel like having a subclass TWICE per day!

Nourishing Fire: Finally something at will. Interesting and powerful.

Form of the Phoenix: Very powerful and interesting, but again only once per day, and is not even a new once per day ability, it triggers together one you already have.

As I said above, the number of uses of Mantle of Flame must rise. And something at will needs to be added at level one so you can actually feel that you have a subclass before 14th.I also thinks that it should get fire resistance. Phoenix Spark is fine if the problems I said are solved. And Form of the Phoenix needs to be turned on only once per long rest if the number of uses of Mantle of Flame increases.

Sea Sorcery

I have nothing to add here. This is one I think could go directly to a book unchanged.

Stone Sorcery (or earth Swordmage)

My favorite from this pack. There is only one main problem here. Stone’s Edge is too powerful to be added to every cantrip. Make it only add a quarter your sorcerer’s level on cantrips or add nothing at all. The way it is it fells too powerful.

Other problem only appears with the AC bonus if you multiclass. But I don’t known how this could be addressed without removing it entirely. Level 6 is too far away to delay an important ability like that.

[Drackolus]

So, do you add Dexterity to the new base AC that the stone Sorcerer gets? The wording is conspicuously different from the Draconic Sorcerer, and the Monk, where it says that your AC in general becomes 13+ Dexterity modifier.

That can't be what they meant, though the wording is odd.

[Maxilian]

Magic Missile doesn't use your casting stat. Neither does animate objects. Haste and greater invis can eat up all your 3rd and 4th slots. Misty step and mirror image are fine 2nd level options. Globe of Invulnerability for 6th, teleport for 7th, power word stun for 8th, and wish for 9th.
All a non-cha sorcerer needs is a repeatable resourceless action.
I like the idea of pumping up to 20 con and grabbing utility feats like Healer and Warcaster. Crossbow master lets you produce flame in melee range. Ritual Caster:Wizard is great, though 13 int or wis is required (fire genasi DO get a +1 to int).

Thanks a lot for the great spell list, the stats allocation let me get DEX to 16 (only expending 1 ASI to bring both DEX and CON to a even number -With the point buy system i can get DEX 15 CON 17-) also having in mind i plan on MC into Rune Master my INT needs to be 13 + (I will have it at 14), letting me enchant my weapon (making it damage fire and letting me reroll all my fire abilities -Be it by Cantrip -Produce Flame or the weapon attack-) and in case i want to use a sure damage i got Magic Missile and Combustion.

Note: DEX is always important even if you don't plan on having it as your main stat

Note2: Those feats are quite useful but will be an option at higher lvls (be it lvl 9 -8 Sorcerer- or +)

[Maxilian]

So, do you add Dexterity to the new base AC that the stone Sorcerer gets? The wording is conspicuously different from the Draconic Sorcerer, and the Monk, where it says that your AC in general becomes 13+ Dexterity modifier.

It makes your base AC calculation that, so unless it would have said BONUS AC, then it doesn't stack

[jaappleton]

New Favored Soul / Undying Light Warlock 3

Volo's Aasimar for the race. I'm thinking Scourge for the +Con, and the bonus damage aura. Though the flying speed of Protector is very tempting.

Utilizing the combination of the Cleric and Sorcerer spell list, they have enough Radiant spells to use them viably at nearly all levels. From Guiding Bolt to Spirit Guardians to Flame Strike to Sunbeam, each with +Cha to the damage rolls. Then there's all the other thematically appropriate spells. Finger of Death, Divine Word, Power Word. Plus the buff spells, like Bless and Shield of Faith. And then the standard great staple spells, like Haste, Greater Invisibility, and Counterspell.

Warlock's short rest slots means opportunities to replenish Sorcery Points.

It legitimately might be the best caster there is, with its spell list.

Take Warlock to 3 for Tome to get Ritual Casting.

[Maxilian]

Other problem only appears with the AC bonus if you multiclass. But I don’t known how this could be addressed without removing it entirely. Level 6 is too far away to delay an important ability like that.

I don't get why is that a problem, it just push more people to take a more CON based approach and for damage dealers (or anything else that is not the ability to sustain damage) its not that much of a deal, in the end, the one that can do the most with this is a Moon Druid or a Barb.

[MrStabby]

So there are good and bad bits to this all in all, like most UA.

I like the favoured soul, it is less stupid than than the last one. The restraint is admirable and it seems like a really interesting class to play. In terms of multiclassing I have some concerns - there are a lot of awesome low level cleric spells and being able to pick those keyed of Charisma is a big boost to a lot of classes. Add to that that you get metamagic and can start to pick them up from first level rather than needing to wait for magical secrets is a further bonus. On the plus side it is now possible to play a paladin with a more developed divine feel without the feel of arcane sorcerer. A pretty good effort.

The others... well it seems to just promote the worst stereotypes of the sorcerer. The sorcerer who burns everything? Well Phoenix is a cool concept - I can get behind that, but was fire really the one element that there was a dearth of sorcerers using? Do we really need more players playing pyromaniac sorcerers?

Stone sorcerer just seems to support further that other current cliche of the guy using booming blade. Engineered so there is no second attack or other martial feature that would conflict with it it just feels like WotC are tying to build your character for you. On the positive side it has a lot to offer as a dip - unarmoured defence, cantrips and some spells for a 1 level dip is pretty sweet.

Sea sorcerer is again a very cool concept. The problem is that the cantrip doen't have to be a sorcerer cantrip so we can probably snooze our war through a few months of endless sorcerer-warlock multiclasses who all think they are so cool and original using repelling blast with extra push on them.

So I think a great UA in concept - loads of cool ideas. The issue is that they generally seem to boost things that don't really need a boost whilst not encouraging players to play anything new. I understand that there are now at least elemental sorcerers associated with the classic elements but were these the things that really needed it? Where is the acid sorcerer for example?

[Deleted]

Nope.
Read it again.
It uses a new calculation, just like pretty much every other AC calc in the game barring Bladesinger's bonus.
It's Mage Armor, but you add your Con instead of your Dex.

Which is what Barbarians should have gotten instead of 10 + Dex + Con.

Hubert the barbarian need no dodging, Hubert have big muscle armor!

[Bugado25]

Just noticed a problem. If Stone sorcery ever gets released it won't be able to get SCAG cantrips if you're playing by AL as teh book where stone sorcery gets released would already be your 2nd book.

[Kileonhardt]

New Favored Soul / Undying Light Warlock 3

Volo's Aasimar for the race. I'm thinking Scourge for the +Con, and the bonus damage aura. Though the flying speed of Protector is very tempting.

Utilizing the combination of the Cleric and Sorcerer spell list, they have enough Radiant spells to use them viably at nearly all levels. From Guiding Bolt to Spirit Guardians to Flame Strike to Sunbeam, each with +Cha to the damage rolls. Then there's all the other thematically appropriate spells. Finger of Death, Divine Word, Power Word. Plus the buff spells, like Bless and Shield of Faith. And then the standard great staple spells, like Haste, Greater Invisibility, and Counterspell.

Warlock's short rest slots means opportunities to replenish Sorcery Points.

It legitimately might be the best caster there is, with its spell list.

Take Warlock to 3 for Tome to get Ritual Casting.

This right here is something I was thinking since my FS Sorc just leveled to 11 last session. Taking Undying Light 1 instead of Sorc 11 is very tempting since DM is allowing me to re-do all my spells following new FS release.


Just noticed a problem. If Stone sorcery ever gets released it won't be able to get SCAG cantrips if you're playing by AL as SCAG would already be your +1 book.

That's not a bad thing. SCAG cantrips are what make Stone look so damn good and far above a lot of other stuff.

[Bugado25]

That's not a bad thing. SCAG cantrips are what make Stone look so damn good and far above a lot of other stuff.

With the exception of Stone's Edge adding to cantrips, nothing is really OP in the subclass. It is clearly meant to be a melee sorcerer. If you take away those cantrips it won't do a good job at it

[MrStabby]

Just noticed a problem. If Stone sorcery ever gets released it won't be able to get SCAG cantrips if you're playing by AL as teh book where stone sorcery gets released would already be your 2nd book.

Ah a good point. This makes it a much more reasonable offering.

[DracoKnight]

Ah a good point. This makes it a much more reasonable offering.

But in home games it's a definite possibility for them to use booming blade.

[Ovarwa]

Not thrilled.

Many of these mechanics are very finicky. EG:

* Divide by 4 is an automatic fail. Better than divide by pi, I suppose.

* Stone's innate AC is the only version to have activation and deactivation; yay?

* Sea sorcerer multi-step curse. More bookkeeping is better!

* etc, etc.

The original FS might have benefited from tweaking, but was not OP at all, except perhaps relative to PHB sorcerer subclasses, which are the real problem. Extra spells from a chosen Domain provides lots of flexibility, but is less likely to cause problems than cherry-picking from two entire lists, and does not stomp on a signature Bard class ability. I'd have preferred a rewrite to include *more* Domain abilities rather than fewer.

Stone sorcerers are especially good if you have a great melee attack. Naturally, I expect multiclassing. (Seems none of the designers thought much about that.)

Perhaps worst of all, these seem more a collection of related powers rather than an exploration or development of lineage. The relationship is often pretty vague; why are curses associated with the sea, for example?

The great thing about a Domain-based sorcerer subclass, for example, is a tight association to the relevant deity. Every new domain also creates a new sorcerer sub-subclass, which is quite elegant. Being related to a water dragon or a water elemental rather than to water or the sea similarly lets you base a subclass on lineage quite obviously, and if done cleverly is pretty extensible. This new material? Meh.


Anyway,

Ken

[Ralanr]

I like that the earth sorcerer bloodline has force damage instead of acid damage. Always annoys me that earth gets stuck with the acid damage subtype.

And sea has a force damage effect as well! That's awesome!

[Mikey P]

So, do you add Dexterity to the new base AC that the stone Sorcerer gets? The wording is conspicuously different from the Draconic Sorcerer, and the Monk, where it says that your AC in general becomes 13+ Dexterity modifier.

Wow. Yeah, I think you do!


Nope.
Read it again.
It uses a new calculation, just like pretty much every other AC calc in the game barring Bladesinger's bonus.
It's Mage Armor, but you add your Con instead of your Dex.

It uses the term "base AC" which is what is referred to what Mage Armor provides, and to what armor in the equipment section provides (with the proviso that medium and heavy armor limit the potential Dex mod). Draconic Resilience and both forms of Unarmored Defense read "AC equals"

This seems to be Mage Armor on Steriods, that can be combined with a shield (or Bladesong). If not they should not have used the term "base AC."

[Auramis]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but with my loose knowledge of 4e's Warden, does the Stone Sorcerer not come off as being a new iteration of the Stone Warden? My brother and I were debating whether we liked it or not (the sorcerer), and neither of us are a fan of the metal idea fantasy, but then it occurred to me what if it were an earth/runestone branded kind of theme with abjuration spells, and it just turned into a warden in my head... or am I reaching here?

[tieren]

It would be MAD as all get out, but a Guardian Ranger/Stone Sorcerer seems pretty cool.

[Garresh]

Uh, am I the only one who sees this new Favored Soul as the most broken class in 5e, hands down? Compare this to a lore bard, and you have a class that is a master of all cha skills, and capable of covering more bases than pretty much any other class in the game. The only thing it can't do is frontline melee, but given how easy it is to pick up armor proficiency or to kick your AC up to a reasonable amount from racials or multiclassing, that isn't as big of an issue.

They effectively become a d8 hit die caster with access to a truly staggering array of spells, WITH metamagic. Actually, I take back what I said about them not frontlining. Clerics don't get extra attack, and Spiritual Weapon basically IS their extra attack, which any frontline Favored Soul can grab no problem. Just pick a Dwarf or a Lizardfolk and pump dex. You'll have good durability, AC, initiative, melee damage, skill monkeying(social only), and absolutely amazing spell selection.

[Giant2005]

Uh, am I the only one who sees this new Favored Soul as the most broken class in 5e, hands down? Compare this to a lore bard, and you have a class that is a master of all cha skills, and capable of covering more bases than pretty much any other class in the game. The only thing it can't do is frontline melee, but given how easy it is to pick up armor proficiency or to kick your AC up to a reasonable amount from racials or multiclassing, that isn't as big of an issue.

They effectively become a d8 hit die caster with access to a truly staggering array of spells, WITH metamagic. Actually, I take back what I said about them not frontlining. Clerics don't get extra attack, and Spiritual Weapon basically IS their extra attack, which any frontline Favored Soul can grab no problem. Just pick a Dwarf or a Lizardfolk and pump dex. You'll have good durability, AC, initiative, melee damage, skill monkeying(social only), and absolutely amazing spell selection.

That was my first thought too, but then I read further and got to the Stone Sorcerer and suddenly the FS became much less of an issue relatively.

[Rysto]

You'll have good durability, AC, initiative, melee damage, skill monkeying(social only), and absolutely amazing spell selection.

Amazing spell selection, but an utterly pitiful number of spells known. That hurts their versatility badly. They can specialize in nearly anything, but they have to choose what they specialize in.

[DivisibleByZero]

Wow. Yeah, I think you do!



It uses the term "base AC" which is what is referred to what Mage Armor provides, and to what armor in the equipment section provides (with the proviso that medium and heavy armor limit the potential Dex mod). Draconic Resilience and both forms of Unarmored Defense read "AC equals"

This seems to be Mage Armor on Steriods, that can be combined with a shield (or Bladesong). If not they should not have used the term "base AC."

No, you don't.
It's UA Playtest material. It has editing errors just like every other friggin UA we've ever seen yet.
It gives you a new calculation, just like every other armor calculation in the game save for one.

[jaappleton]

No, you don't.
It's UA Playtest material. It has editing errors just like every other friggin UA we've ever seen yet.
It gives you a new calculation, just like every other armor calculation in the game save for one.

Correct.

It's a typo. Whenever you read UA, don't think RAW, think RAI. That's always a good rule of thumb.


Someone called the new FS incredibly unbalanced. To that I say "Tempest Theurge" :smallbiggrin:

[Temperjoke]

Uh, am I the only one who sees this new Favored Soul as the most broken class in 5e, hands down? Compare this to a lore bard, and you have a class that is a master of all cha skills, and capable of covering more bases than pretty much any other class in the game. The only thing it can't do is frontline melee, but given how easy it is to pick up armor proficiency or to kick your AC up to a reasonable amount from racials or multiclassing, that isn't as big of an issue.

They effectively become a d8 hit die caster with access to a truly staggering array of spells, WITH metamagic. Actually, I take back what I said about them not frontlining. Clerics don't get extra attack, and Spiritual Weapon basically IS their extra attack, which any frontline Favored Soul can grab no problem. Just pick a Dwarf or a Lizardfolk and pump dex. You'll have good durability, AC, initiative, melee damage, skill monkeying(social only), and absolutely amazing spell selection.

It's not that broken though, sure you end up with a wide variety of spells, but you don't have a bigger total than another sorcerer does. Each cleric spell you take is at the cost of one of your sorcerer spells, but you don't get all the cleric abilities besides access to their spells. The health is the same as what draconic sorcerers get, except they also get armor as part of their subclass. So basically, it's a more damage-oriented charisma cleric.

[jaappleton]

The more I think about it, the more I dislike Phoenix. Outside of that once per long rest ability, it has very little to offer. Too many of its features are enhanced by that ability. Suggested fix: Spend a number of Sorcery points equal to half your level during a Short Rest to recharge the ability.

[Twigwit]

My take on the Sorcerer UA:

Divine Magic (1st level) – Hey Billy, how come your mom lets you pick spells from TWO class lists? This is utterly fantastic and makes the Buff Sorc build more viable than ever. Lets you have a way to spend your Bonus Action early in the form of Healing Word to revive your Big Stupid Fighters without having them miss their turn and Spiritual Weapon for some free damage. So many options here, it’s too much to talk about in one bullet point

Supernatural Resistance (1st level) – We now have the equivalent to d8 hit dice. Always useful.

Blessed Countenance (6th level) – God is now your stylist, and all CHA checks with proficiency have proficiency. Decent, better if you take as many CHA skills as possible to be the ultimate face, though skills in general are pretty weak this edition. Still, lets us get away with no having basic enchantments like Charm Person in our very limited repertoire of known spells.

Divine Purity (14th level) – Immunity to one of the most common damage types monsters deal in the game, and two nasty conditions. Useful to us in a selfish capacity, but doesn’t particularly enhance our spell casting.

Unearthly Recover (18th level) – Our HP is now effectively 50% larger. Good in a pinch, but only really benefits us if we’re getting walloped in the first place.

Conclusion: This archetype is absolutely worth it for their very first features alone. Everything else is just gravy. Metamagic + Cleric spells can lead to some excellent combinations.


Ignite (1st level) – We can light things on fire using an action from a range of touch…but Fire Bolt let us do that from a distance already. This feature is pure fluff. The only situation where I can imagine this being useful is when you want to light stuff on fire while being Invisible, since this feature isn’t a spell and won’t break Invisibility.

Mantle of Flame (1st level) - +CHA retaliatory fire damage when hit in melee and +CHA on fire spell damage, for one minute once a day. It’s good when it’s up, but only having it available for one combat out of the day hurts.

Phoenix Spark (6th level) – This is a weird one. You can either play cautiously and use it to keep yourself from getting KO’d mid fight, or be really aggressive and turn into some kind of arcane suicide bomber.

Noursing Fire (14th level) – Another ability that encourages you to use your Mantle of Flame aggressively, you can deal retaliatory damage and then heal yourself by casting a blasting spell that deals in fire damage.

Form of the Phoenix (18th level) – A huge buff for Mantle of Flame, but that’s also a problem. Every ability in your roster, except for Ignite, is centered around the use of an ability that can only be used once a day.

Conclusion: I’m personally not a fan, mostly because I like to play caster that aren’t pure blasters. If you take this archetype your bread and butter will be Fire blasting spells, so Elemental Adept (Fire) is an absolute must. Tiefling also synergizes nicely with resistance to fire and Hellish Rebuke for that aggressive, spell-tank suicide bomber type of play. Note that there are about 40 monsters in the MM alone with straight up immunity to fire damage, and against these monsters you have nothing in your kit to help deal with them. If the climatic encounter of the day includes things with Fire immunity you’re just hosed.


Soul of the Sea (1st level) – Situational, since Aquatic adventures and encounters are fairly rare, but when it comes up it’s a life saver. Whenever there’s a body of water take advantage of it as a place to hide away from the scary landbound melee monsters while you cast spells at them from safety of your pond.

Curse of the Sea (1st level) – It’s unclear whether or not you can activate the curse at the same time they’re hit by it. Even if it doesn’t this is still an ok ability, unless you have 2 levels in Warlock in which case it becomes fantastic.
Cold Damage Curse – Situational, and the debuff is only 5ft better than Ray of Frost. Lame.
Lightning Damage Curse – More damage is always better, but being in melee for Shocking Grasp is less than ideal.
Forced Movement Curse – Are you a level 2 Warlock with Agonizing Blast and Repelling Blast? Then use this every time. Knocking back an enemy a total of 25 ft per ray that connects is both effective and hilarious. Use this for fun and profit.

Watery Defense (6th level) – Resistance to the most common elemental damage type? Gimmie. Also gives you a get-out-of-melee free card 1/short rest on a reaction. Never worry about getting pinned down and ganked by angry hobgoblins ever again.

Shifting Form (14th level) – You’re now some kind of liquid octopus man. You really have to get creative to benefit fully from this quirky feature. Try carrying around a man sized box with eye-holes, then retreating into it for 3/4ths cover when combat starts.

Water Soul (18th level) – Again, doesn’t really make you a better spell caster, but the features are nice. First bullet point lets you take watch every night so your weakling mortal peers can get some shut eye, second and third make it so that you don’t have to fear getting flattened by big scary monsters. If you’re a Sorcerer and are getting hit in the first place, however, something has probably already gone wrong.

Conclusion: The perfect level 1 dip for Warlock, and works with the Sorcerer 18/Warlock 2 build that everyone loves. The later features aren’t that great, but you’ll have plenty of high level spells to comfort yourself with by that point anyways.



Bonus Proficiencies (1st level) – Shields and all weapons! Yes! This makes Variant Human very attractive as your race for that sweet sweet Warmage feat, though considering our later features we may want to delay our feats in favor of stats.

Metal Magic (1st level) – We Paladins now. There is a fantastic synergy between the Smite spells and Booming Blade and Green Flame Blade cantrips. Every Smite spell only uses a Bonus Action to cast, allowing you to cast a cantrip, and those cantrips make a melee attack as part of the casting. Booming Blade + Thunderous Smite is especially flavorful. To me this displaces Eldritch Knight as the go-to gish class, and their bonus-action feature only comes online at level 6, we can this from the word go. If only there were a way to ditch DEX in favor of STR for greatswords and polearms…

Stone’s Durability (1st level) …And here it is. You no longer care about DEX, you can safely take STR as your attack stat. Now you are a bit MAD since you rely on STR, CON and CHA in mostly equal measure, but picking Half Elf or Triton as your race will fix that up no problem. Take the Shield spell for even more survivability. Now that STR is open to you, feel free to take Great Weapon Master so that you can power attack when you use Booming Blade + Any Smite. Watch the Bladesinger, Eldritch Knight and Bladelock’s jaws drop to the floor when you list out your damage, and savor their tears as they cry themselves to sleep every night.

Stone Aegis (6th level) – Grant a better version of Heavy Armor Master to one ally. Good. When someone hits that same ally you can TP in and wallop them for good damage, great damage if you have GWM. Great. Works best if said buddy is a Wolf Barbarian, Rogue, Kobold of any class, or someone else you either benefits from or gives benefits when you are all ganging up on the same guy. Note this will eat your reaction for Shield, however.

Stone’s Edge (14th level) – Your Smites bite even harder, and the extra damage is the best damage type in the game. Also works for any blasts, including cantrips. Costs no actions. Truly splendid.

Earth Master’s Aegis (18th level) – Now most of your party gets some extra melee protection, and you can bounce around the battlefield squashing mooks that dare hit your party members with ease.

Conclusion: This is the first truly viable Gish archetype in the game. If you want to Gish and Gish well, take this archetype and never look back. Use your 4th level and lower spell slots to deal lots of damage consistently and avoid it with Shield and such, and then shape the battlefield at your leisure with higher level spells when you get access to them. No mater your level you will always have good melee presence and you don’t have to compromise the really powerful and fun mid and late game spells to have it. Also a great multiclass choice for mid-level Paladins and the poor suckers that took Bladelock. Avoid trap spells that eat into your action economy like True Strike, Hex and Hunter’s Mark.

Overall Conclusion: My favorite UA to date, the Sorcerer was really hankering for some more viable archetypes, and this UA has delivered on that hands down with tons of options that lend to different and fun styles of play. This almost makes me willing to forgive Mearls and Crawford for the Kensai monk. Cheers.

[Garresh]

Amazing spell selection, but an utterly pitiful number of spells known. That hurts their versatility badly. They can specialize in nearly anything, but they have to choose what they specialize in.

You're right that their spells known are still much lower, but consider how much of a big deal Magical Secrets is for the bard class. This is basically that, but cranked up to 11. They may not know many, but when they can get the BEST in every category, they don't need to spread themselves so thin. Spiritual Weapon covers the "I want to melee" category perfectly. They can pick up bless and be a good buffer without needing to multiclass, and then from there they've already gotten 2 of the best low level cleric spells, and can go with stuff like Haste and Fireball.

Sure, they're having to weigh their options carefully, but when every single choice is top tier, it threatens to overpower other casters and outshine them horrifically.

[jaappleton]

It's not that broken though, sure you end up with a wide variety of spells, but you don't have a bigger total than another sorcerer does. Each cleric spell you take is at the cost of one of your sorcerer spells, but you don't get all the cleric abilities besides access to their spells. The health is the same as what draconic sorcerers get, except they also get armor as part of their subclass. So basically, it's a more damage-oriented charisma cleric.

Doesn't have to be damage oriented. It could excel at anything. Buffing? Twinned any version of a buff spell, really. Twinned Haste, Polymorph, Greater Invisibility, Shield of Faith. Healing? Twinned Healing Word, or Quickened Cure Wounds. Debuffing? I mean, take your pick.

[Specter]

Uh, am I the only one who sees this new Favored Soul as the most broken class in 5e, hands down? Compare this to a lore bard, and you have a class that is a master of all cha skills, and capable of covering more bases than pretty much any other class in the game. The only thing it can't do is frontline melee, but given how easy it is to pick up armor proficiency or to kick your AC up to a reasonable amount from racials or multiclassing, that isn't as big of an issue.

They effectively become a d8 hit die caster with access to a truly staggering array of spells, WITH metamagic. Actually, I take back what I said about them not frontlining. Clerics don't get extra attack, and Spiritual Weapon basically IS their extra attack, which any frontline Favored Soul can grab no problem. Just pick a Dwarf or a Lizardfolk and pump dex. You'll have good durability, AC, initiative, melee damage, skill monkeying(social only), and absolutely amazing spell selection.

I think the opposite. The original Favored Soul from Modifying Classes had built-in armor/weapon profs and extra attack, which made them a gish like Valor Bard except much better in the damage/self-buffing department with Quicken/Twin spell.

Plus, they learned 25 spells in their career, which covered that horrible sorcerer lack of versatility. This new FS can pick any cleric spell, but they're competing with his own spells which are already scarse.

That 2d4 ability is worse than Bend Luck due to the use limit. As for the skills, Performance is irrelevant, and the other three can get redundant with each other. This is all considering they take proficiency in all four.

I'm sticking with the original, and hoping this one never gets published.

[Sicarius Victis]

One more thing to consider when comparing the FS to Magical Secrets. Once you choose a spell for Magical Secrets, you're stuck with that spell. You can't swap it out later for a different spell. For the FS, though, since they're just regular spells known, you can swap them out. Once you're tired of one spell, or have a better option for it, you're perfectly capable of trading it for a new one, any time you level up.

[jaappleton]

You're right that their spells known are still much lower, but consider how much of a big deal Magical Secrets is for the bard class. This is basically that, but cranked up to 11. They may not know many, but when they can get the BEST in every category, they don't need to spread themselves so thin. Spiritual Weapon covers the "I want to melee" category perfectly. They can pick up bless and be a good buffer without needing to multiclass, and then from there they've already gotten 2 of the best low level cleric spells, and can go with stuff like Haste and Fireball.

Sure, they're having to weigh their options carefully, but when every single choice is top tier, it threatens to overpower other casters and outshine them horrifically.

Yes and no.

Wizards and Land Druids get Arcane and Natural Recovery. I believe both also get Ritual Casting. Moon Druids get Wild Shape. Wizards have a bigger spells known list than anyone. Abjurer's get more bonus HP than anyone outside of Moon Druids, but they can cast spells without being hampered. Diviner Wizards can alter any dice roll (I've seen a 2 used to change a Nat 20 on a Disentegrate, much to the DMs chagrin), Druids know all their spells and can shift them out daily. Bards have Inspiration replenishing every short rest, which can alter battles quite frequently. Turn hits into misses, make enemies fail saving throws, etc. Warlocks can learn every Ritual in the game and have the best Cantrip there is.

It's great to have access to both spell lists. But it's not the best ability an archetype gets.

[Kileonhardt]

You're right that their spells known are still much lower, but consider how much of a big deal Magical Secrets is for the bard class. This is basically that, but cranked up to 11. They may not know many, but when they can get the BEST in every category, they don't need to spread themselves so thin. Spiritual Weapon covers the "I want to melee" category perfectly. They can pick up bless and be a good buffer without needing to multiclass, and then from there they've already gotten 2 of the best low level cleric spells, and can go with stuff like Haste and Fireball.

Sure, they're having to weigh their options carefully, but when every single choice is top tier, it threatens to overpower other casters and outshine them horrifically.

And they have basically no 6th level ability, the bonus to Cha checks is nice and all but you're already good at that and it only puts you in line with bard, their 14th level ability is a 10th level monk ability, and their 18th level ability is a 1/lr half hp heal. All in all their kit past level 1 isn't the greatest, so them having two spell lists to pull from definitely doesn't break them.

[jaappleton]

One more thing to consider when comparing the FS to Magical Secrets. Once you choose a spell for Magical Secrets, you're stuck with that spell. You can't swap it out later for a different spell. For the FS, though, since they're just regular spells known, you can swap them out. Once you're tired of one spell, or have a better option for it, you're perfectly capable of trading it for a new one, any time you level up.

You can swap about a Magical Secrets spell, since it becomes a Bard spell. But if you swap it, it has to be for a normal Bard spell. You don't get another use of MS to pick any spell in the game. Once you swap it, that's it.

So if I take Absorb Elements, if I swap it out, it has to be for something on my normal Bard spell list.

[Sicarius Victis]

You can swap about a Magical Secrets spell, since it becomes a Bard spell. But if you swap it, it has to be for a normal Bard spell. You don't get another use of MS to pick any spell in the game. Once you swap it, that's it.

So if I take Absorb Elements, if I swap it out, it has to be for something on my normal Bard spell list.

Fair enough, it amounts to about the same result anyways.

[DracoKnight]

Fair enough, it amounts to about the same result anyways.

Eh, not quite. You keep your boost to spells known.

[Sigreid]

I like it overall, but IMO the phoenix go the short end of the stick.

[DracoKnight]

I like it overall, but IMO the phoenix go the short end of the stick.

Making Mantle of Flame 1/rest instead of 1/long rest fixes that.

[jaappleton]

Trying to come up with what spells to take as a new Favored Soul might be the toughest thing I've done in D&D.

My current group is lv3.

Shield
Bless
You have no source of Armor, so Mage Armor.

Hold Person? Healing Word? Guiding Bolt? Scorching Ray? Shield of Faith? Shatter? Misty Step? Spiritual Weapon?

This is rough.

And this is what prevents it from being OP.

[Kileonhardt]

Trying to come up with what spells to take as a new Favored Soul might be the toughest thing I've done in D&D.

My current group is lv3.

Shield
Bless
You have no source of Armor, so Mage Armor.

Hold Person? Healing Word? Guiding Bolt? Scorching Ray? Shield of Faith? Shatter? Misty Step? Spiritual Weapon?

This is rough.

And this is what prevents it from being OP.

I've been sitting here for about two hours trying to figure out my full spell list for 11th level. It's insanely difficult.

[Draco4472]

My take on things:

Phoenix seems to be a better fire draconic sorcerer, and my only concern is that it may be too good, thus making a whole archetype a completely weaker choice.
Having re-read the entry for this archetype, it acts as a more aggressive draconic fire sorcerer, not nessecarily a 'better' choice, yet my concern of making draconic sorcerers irrelevant still stands, despite it being diminished.

Favored Soul is exactly what I originally wanted it to be, and I love it, but I'd rather play a reflavored Cleric for armor. However, it makes for a great and thematic paladin multiclass.

Sea seems *meh* to me, and focuses on getting away and surviving brief melee combat. However, a paladin 2 dip would be an interesting build.

Stone Sorcery makes me want to be a dwarf sorcerer for the first time.

[DracoKnight]

Trying to come up with what spells to take as a new Favored Soul might be the toughest thing I've done in D&D.

My current group is lv3.

Shield
Bless
You have no source of Armor, so Mage Armor.

Hold Person? Healing Word? Guiding Bolt? Scorching Ray? Shield of Faith? Shatter? Misty Step? Spiritual Weapon?

This is rough.

And this is what prevents it from being OP.

You get expanded options without getting expanded quantity...this is indeed a major limiting factor.

[Drackolus]

Magic initiate becomes even better for the sorcerer. One more spell known (since they are a "learned spell" caster) becomea better when you have so many options.

[DragonSorcererX]

All of them look AWESOME!!! Yes! Yes! Sorcerer Master Class! Favored Soul is even more badass! (I'm so happy that it even rhymed)

[famousringo]

Okay, so my key beefs with sorcerer are a lack of versatility and a dependance on long rest resources, so I'm going to analyze how these subclasses address these issues:

Favoured Soul


Divine Magic - Doesn't give a sorcerer more abilities, but allows her to cherry pick some versatile spells. When in doubt, you can always Bless.
Supernatural Resilience - I consider More Hit Points to be an at-will ability. It's always active and it lets you keep doing things.
Favoured by the Gods - A short rest resource. No scaling, only works on saves and attacks.
Blessed Counteneance - Lets a sorcerer Face as well as anybody. A nice, if focused, at-will resource.
Divine Purity - Again a little specialized, especially for a level 14 power, but poison and disease can be nasty.
Unearthly Recovery - Specialized, long rest, and level 18 so who cares anyway.

Phoenix Sorcerer


Ignite - I count at least three sorcerer cantrips this could have been accomplished with. Lame.
Mantle of Flame - This is basically a 1 per day rage ability except it mostly boosts damage. More powerful than most spellcaster damage boosts if I read it right.
Phoenix Spark - Another long rest ability, burns your friends in exchange for letting you take another hit. Phoenix is starting to look like a once per day suicide bomber.
Nourishing Fire - Do damage, live longer. Be sure to follow up your suicide bombings with more bombings.
Form of Phoenix - Now you have the ultimate rage ability once per day. Your DM is going to love mind controlling you into a flying, burning, self-healing, damage resistant suicide bomber.

Sea Sorcerer


Soul of the Sea - This is a pretty nifty at-will ability.
Curse of the Sea - Kind of lame that you have to hit the target with a cursing cantrip before your spells get buffed. Quicken says, 'Hello.' At least it's more versatile than a simple +CHA mod.
Watery Defense - Short rest reactive defend and evade. Not bad at all.
Shifting Form - Almost an at-will Gaseous Form. Neat.
Water Soul - Wow. Always on physical resistance and anti-crit.

Stone Sorcerer


Bonus Proficiencies - Some nice at-will features.
Metal Magic - Ew. All this stuff uses concentration, so you won't be able to Haste or Blur or crowd control while you're Smiting. Also, Smite spells and metamagic don't mix at all. Don't think I'd waste a spell pick on any of this dreck.
Stone's durability - More at-will defense. Makes this subclass an interesting dip for any caster who wants some toughness.
Stone Aegis - An at-will support ability with a retaliation bonus. The math and rules around it are a little clunky, though.
Stone's Edge - This is pretty much the biggest single-target spell damage boost short of a maximize ability, and it applies to any spell. Only one creature per casting though.
Earth Master's Aegis - Your at-will support ability just got bigger and will now trigger bonus damage more often!

In terms of addressing my concerns, I think they mostly do well except phoenix. Favoured soul lets you pillage cleric's best spells and metamagic 'em, but your at-will is restricted to social skills and cantrips. Water gives some nice mobility and defense options, which allows you move spell resources away from things like Shield and Misty Step. Stone with a weapon cantrip does nice at-will damage, durability and support, allowing spell resources to focus on versatility.

[Deleted]

Aegis is broken.

See sig...

[jaappleton]

I have no idea how many monsters know it, but remember that the spell Harm is a disease.

Paladins, and anything else immune to disease like the Favored Soul, are not impacted by it.

Just something to consider.

[Sigreid]

Making Mantle of Flame 1/rest instead of 1/long rest fixes that.

I actually think the resilience features of Favored Soul would fit better under the phoenix.

[Foxhound438]

The more I think about it, the more I dislike Phoenix. Outside of that once per long rest ability, it has very little to offer. Too many of its features are enhanced by that ability. Suggested fix: Spend a number of Sorcery points equal to half your level during a Short Rest to recharge the ability.

I feel like it should be a flat number, that way when you get more powerful you can use your "special feature" more often than you could before. Maybe 4 or 5 points, or something like that

[Mikey P]

In a class where you already get fewer than 2 spells known per level, adding another class list to try to choose them from is almost a punishment!

[Kimhari]

Nice to see they completed the elemental origins, makes from some interesting thought experiments. Favored Souls have always been a nice concept

[Kileonhardt]

I'm still caught up on Favored Soul's level 6 ability and just the pure fun you can have with it, expertise, and Actor. You'd be a huge agent of chaos with the amount of people you can fool with that :smallbiggrin:

[DracoKnight]

I'm still caught up on Favored Soul's level 6 ability and just the pure fun you can have with it, expertise, and Actor. You'd be a huge agent of chaos with the amount of people you can fool with that :smallbiggrin:

Also, be a changeling.

[Deleted]

WotC needs to watch out or the sorcerer won't be the little brother any more XD

[DracoKnight]

WotC needs to watch out or the sorcerer won't be the little brother any more XD

I'm okay with this. I like them more than wizards! :smallbiggrin:

[Kileonhardt]

Also, be a changeling.

I'd prefer to just use Alter Self or Seeming to get around the whole equipment doesn't change with you thing.

[Sigreid]

I'm okay with this. I like them more than wizards! :smallbiggrin:

Heresy! Blasphemy! Someone call the exorcist!

[DracoKnight]

Heresy! Blasphemy! Someone call the exorcist!

Bah! Away with your holy water, Concerned Citizen! Let me be devilishly happy!

[Sigreid]

Just to be completely off topic. Warlock next? I would love a celestial warlock.

Now back to the sorcerer debates. :smallbiggrin:

[DracoKnight]

Just to be completely off topic. Warlock next? I would love a celestial warlock.

Now back to the sorcerer debates. :smallbiggrin:

Warlock should be next :smallbiggrin:

[Sicarius Victis]

Just to be completely off topic. Warlock next? I would love a celestial warlock.

That's one concept they've almost achieved twice now. Both Undying Light and Seeker are almost Celestial, but not quite.

Could be refluffed easily enough, though.

[Sigreid]

That's one concept they've almost achieved twice now. Both Undying Light and Seeker are almost Celestial, but not quite.

Could be refluffed easily enough, though.

Yeah, I really like undying light and would like to see it officially released. It's the official stuff that gets allowed in the campaign as opposed to just goofing around sessions.

[DracoKnight]

I liked the Undying Light too, and it plays great. Would love to see it get an official release! :smallsmile:

[Foxhound438]

I'm okay with this. I like them more than wizards! :smallbiggrin:

well it's not a cleric, so...

jakefromstatefarm.jpeg

[Blas_de_Lezo]

Favored Soul: it's ok. Balanced and nice flavor.
Sea Sorcerer: the cantrip ability is weird.
Stone Sorcerer: it's so clearly broken that I can only think they did it on purpose to get more feedback.

Phoenix Sorcerer: the best flavor of the four sorcerers. I like it because it reminds me to The Channeler class of Dungeon World (one of the best classes ever), well, I just think they have their "inspiration" directly from it. However, I truly love the concept of the Phoenix Sorcerer, although I think it's a bit underpowered:

Ignite: it's just a side effect of a cantrip. I think they could do better. Although it's ok to ignite things while invisible. I would increase the 1st level abilities giving the phoenix a minor fire-related bonus a +1/2 proficiency bonus to initiative (to reflect his impulsiveness) or something like that. Or maybe "changing" the nature of the cantrip fire-based spells (so for example, fire-based cantrips could be cast with different ranges/targets)
Mantle of flame: nice, but it's only 1/day. But it's also true that the +Cha to damage it's quite powerful. It's a big boom to a 1st level character so 1/short rest could be overpowered (RAW, it applies also to each Scorching Ray). Maybe updating it to 2/day like bladesinging.
The other capstones are ok. It's a flavorful archetype that demands to be rethought (I don't know if this verb exists).

[Millstone85]

It is a bit weird to see Phoenix, Sea and Stone in this UA after Storm was released alone in SCAG. I wonder if there will eventually be a story behind each of these new sorcerous origins, like how Storm is tied to the Sundering.

If the next UA brings back the Undying Light, I have two hopes:
* A new name that doesn't sound so much like the Undying from SCAG.
* A patron from the Positive Energy Plane, not the whole plane itself.

[DracoKnight]

Maybe updating it to 2/day like bladesinging.

Just a reminder: bladesinging is 2/short rest.

[Kileonhardt]

Mantle of flame: nice, but it's only 1/day. But it's also true that the +Cha to damage it's quite powerful. It's a big boom to a 1st level character so 1/short rest could be overpowered (RAW, it applies also to each Scorching Ray). Maybe updating it to 2/day like bladesinging.
The rest are ok.

I'm still going with my thought that it needs to be like Channel Divinity. Once at early levels, twice at mid levels, thrice at higher levels. Can keep it long rest too.

[Blas_de_Lezo]

Just a reminder: bladesinging is 2/short rest.

Yeah, you're right. But I think 2/long rest would be ok anyway.

[DracoKnight]

If the next UA brings back the Undying Light, I have two hopes:
* A new name that doesn't sound so much like the Undying from SCAG.
* A patron from the Positive Energy Plane, not the whole plane itself.

1) Please! Having both an Undying Patron and an Undying Light Patron is terribly confusing!

2) All of this. They listed fiends you make pacts with for the Fiend Patron. I wanna know which denizens of the Positive Plane I'm drawing power from.

[DracoKnight]

I'm still going with my thought that it needs to be like Channel Divinity. Once at early levels, twice at mid levels, thrice at higher levels. Can keep it long rest too.

I would be okay with this scaling.

[Blas_de_Lezo]

I'm still going with my thought that it needs to be like Channel Divinity. Once at early levels, twice at mid levels, thrice at higher levels. Can keep it long rest too.

Yeah, could be ok too. This class is nice. I'd only change Ignite (adding it more versatility) and the uses per day of mantle of flame.

[Mikey P]

I suppose it's neat that if you combine the new Favored Soul 6 with Bard 2, you effectively are now proficient in all CHA Skills you don't have, and posses Expertise for the ones you do...

[Kileonhardt]

I suppose it's neat that if you combine the new Favored Soul 6 with Bard 2, you effectively are now proficient in all CHA Skills you don't have, and posses Expertise for the ones you do...

I don't think JoAT works with BC but might have to ask Crawford that one.

I'm going with Favored Soul (Loki). Cause mischief and mayhem everywhere I go!

[Vaz]

Stone Sorcerer 14/GoO Tome Warlock 2, vHuman, Warcaster+Sentinel, 16 Dex, 15 Con, 20 Cha, Booming Blade, Green Flame Blade, Bladeward, Shillelagh, Dissonant Whispers, Armor of Agathys for Temp HP Damage

You have Mage Armour as Standard, with an AC19 (13+2+Dex). AoA is none Concentration, and cast out of a 7th level slot is 35 Temp HP, which can be Quickened Bladeward for double effectiveness. You don't need this, but resist damage and spike armour makes you fairly tanky. Without even allowing for Aegis, you've essentially got a pool of 70HP there while Q'd Blade Warding, although you don't have all the points for that.

Booming Blade and Quickened Dissonant Whisphers (DW needs to be after booming blade), each one adding +7 Force damage, as you force him to move and take 3d8 Thunder, and then GFB on the way out as your reaction.

Grand total, assuming non magical weapon, and getting hit twice in melee after Blade Warding

70 Cold +(2d8+8) Magic Bludgeon + 5d8 Thunder + 2d8 Fire +3d6 Psychic + 28 Force Damage. You have now proceeded to deal an average 167 damage in exchange for a single 7th level slot which can be topped up by other Temp HP sources, and a 1st level spell slot. So essentially, a single 1st slot allows said Sorcerer to deal 167 rainbow damage on average.

Brutal.

If you can Aegis yourself, you are not only Resistant, but following Bidmas, half the damage and then the -5 to damage. To put that into comparison;

An Ancient Red (CR24) rolling max damage and doing a Tail Action would deal 9 piercing+12 Fire, 5 Claw, 5 Claw, 7 Tail. That is a grand total of 37points of damage causing 4 triggers of AoA dealing 147 points of damage to it, before getting to attack on it itself. Again, That is rolling max. Rolling Averages, AoA lasts for 2 rounds dealing 287 points of damage.

Wtf.

[Zene]

I find it hilarious that they fix the OP-ness of Favored Soul, and in the same article introduce the most broken Sorc subclass since favored soul (Stone).

Once again we have a UA put together without any real thought of how multiclassing will interact.

Besides what's already been mentioned in previous posts about Stone, you have the interaction of Tomelock 3 / Stone Sorc X. The tomelock's Shillelagh means you can just max Cha and Con (hello Triton and Scourge Asimar sorclocks) and dump Str. So now one of the most OP ranged builds (due to Eldritch Blast, Agonizing Blast, and Quicken) is now also one of the most OP melee builds, using the exact same stats. Sorclocks just got a huge melee boost, still have their ranged power, and can still cycle short-rest spell slots into sorc points or long-rest spell slots (which no other MC build can do) on top of that.

Edit: Heh Vaz beat me to it on the Shillelagh piece.

[Kileonhardt]

You have Mage Armour as Standard, with an AC19 (13+2+Dex).

Your AC would only be 13+dex or 13+Con, I guess +2 if you go shield. Better off going 3rd level into Warlock for Shillelagh and dumping Dex.

As for all your damage calculations, you're throwing away so many sorcery points and spell slots to do all of this. Definitely not a great idea unless you only face one encounter a day.

Chances also are if you're going up against a big bad, your AoA is going down in one hit from either magic or a breath weapon so you get no damage there.

It's all nice and sparkly on paper but doesn't hold up well in practice.


I find it hilarious that they fix the OP-ness of Favored Soul, and in the same article introduce the most broken Sorc subclass since favored soul (Stone).

Once again we have a UA put together without any real thought of how multiclassing will interact.

UA material isn't meant to be multiclassed. It's also play test material for a reason.

[Zene]

UA material isn't meant to be multiclassed.

If it's meant to be playtested, it's meant to be multiclassed. MCing is part of playing. Playtesters need to find these MC exploits before it becomes official material, if we want official material to remain balanced.

[Herobizkit]

Is anyone else getting the feeling that [certain content producers] are pushing hard for 4e-style Encounter powers that do x and y and are also rechargeable on a short rest?

[Sicarius Victis]

You mean, just like any other 5e ability that comes back on a short rest?

[Kileonhardt]

If it's meant to be playtested, it's meant to be multiclassed. MCing is part of playing. Playtesters need to find these MC exploits before it becomes official material, if we want official material to remain balanced.

Multiclassing is optional for a reason. A lot of things in the core books can get out of hand when multiclassing. If they really wanted to balance around it then they should increase requirements on multiclassing instead of powering down certain abilities.

First you have to play material to make sure it's solid enough on its own, which is what UA is. They should in no way be worrying over power gamer min maxing with optional rules. Doing such a thing ends up releasing content that is terrible-decent at best on its own.

[JumboWheat01]

WotC needs to watch out or the sorcerer won't be the little brother any more XD

That'll never happen. WIZARDS of the Coast, after all, not Sorcerers of the Plains.

[Deleted]

That'll never happen. WIZARDS of the Coast, after all, not Sorcerers of the Plains.

Too late, stone sorcerer is better than any wizard archetype.

[Asmotherion]

OK... Stone Sorcery is broken to say the least. Give the Sorcerer the option to Dump Dex in Favor of Constitution, really? A class that's already got Con save proficiency?

Then project a ward like ability giving damage reduction (yes I know we're not in 3.5 it's still Dammage reduction, ok?) at-will?

Also, teleport at-will to the warded creature as long as they are attacked AND deal damage at the same time... With an elemenal weapon nontheless, that has probably already been shilellage'd by dipping tome warlock 3 for it to hit with charisma.

And, as if this was not already broken enough, add half your level to the twin/quickened cantrips the sorcerer casts every round as force (one of the less resisted aka one of the best damage types) damage per casting of an offencive spell. That's your Character level as bonus damage per round.

I was seriously expecting an at-will wish by level 18 wile they're at it

Water seems too druidy, and the revised Favored Soul seems to have lost most of it's power, making it more balanced, wile phoenix is good as long as you only have one encounter per day to focus on...

Overall, the new mega-OP candidate of UA is the Stone Sorcerer, although no sane DM would ever allow it outside of playtesting. For the rest, Dragon does it better, and Shadow Sorcerer as well.

[Kileonhardt]

Also, teleport at-will to the warded creature as long as they are attacked AND deal damage at the same time... With an elemenal weapon nontheless, that has probably already been shilellage'd by dipping tome warlock 3 for it to hit with charisma.

It's pretty good, seemingly broken. But obviously it's a first draft.

[Drackolus]

Too late, stone sorcerer is better than any wizard archetype.

Apples and oranges. The wizard has a ton of out-of-combat abilities, and the sorcerer is almost purely combat focused.
The wizard was already WORSE in a slugging match against a sorcerer. Only stupid wizards enter slugging matches without having the upper hand before the fight starts.

[Deleted]

OK... Stone Sorcery is broken to say the least. Give the Sorcerer the option to Dump Dex in Favor of Constitution, really? A class that's already got Con save proficiency?

Then project a ward like ability giving damage reduction (yes I know we're not in 3.5 it's still Dammage reduction, ok?) at-will?

Also, teleport at-will to the warded creature as long as they are attacked AND deal damage at the same time... With an elemenal weapon nontheless, that has probably already been shilellage'd by dipping tome warlock 3 for it to hit with charisma.

And, as if this was not already broken enough, add half your level to the twin/quickened cantrips the sorcerer casts every round as force (one of the less resisted aka one of the best damage types) damage per casting of an offencive spell. That's your Character level as bonus damage per round.

I was seriously expecting an at-will wish by level 18 wile they're at it

Water seems too druidy, and the revised Favored Soul seems to have lost most of it's power, making it more balanced, wile phoenix is good as long as you only have one encounter per day to focus on...

Overall, the new mega-OP candidate of UA is the Stone Sorcerer, although no sane DM would ever allow it outside of playtesting. For the rest, Dragon does it better, and Shadow Sorcerer as well.

Stone Sorcerer is only broken if the DM allows it to be broken.

I for one love 3e/4e's optimization style and would love to see re implement diverse power levels.

[Vaz]

Your AC would only be 13+dex or 13+Con, I guess +2 if you go shield. Better off going 3rd level into Warlock for Shillelagh and dumping Dex.

Was half way there with Shillelagh prior to that, but yep. I wouldn't dump Dex though because that is where you get your ability to act first comes in.


As for all your damage calculations, you're throwing away so many sorcery points and spell slots to do all of this. Definitely not a great idea unless you only face one encounter a day.
What Sorcery Points? You mean the 4 you get back on a Short Rest from Warlock, or the fact that you only realisitically need to do that once or twice (AoA+Quicken BW, Quicken BB+DW = 4 Sorc points).


Chances also are if you're going up against a big bad, your AoA is going down in one hit from either magic or a breath weapon so you get no damage there.

'Oh no, my Temp HP are depleted, whatever will I do now' cries the Sorcerer as it looks over its 15 other known Spells 6th level spell slots.


It's all nice and sparkly on paper but doesn't hold up well in practice.
I'm guessing this is the voice of all experience on Warlock/Sorcerer multiclasses talking and that someone who is actually currently playing a Conquer Paladin/Sorcerer (ab)using AoA and Sentinel BB already in a similar manner cannot speak for himself?


UA material isn't meant to be multiclassed. It's also play test material for a reason.
Fancy that. I'm doing the first bit of playtesting; theorycrafting a build to use in game. And it doesn't matter if it's meant to be multiclassed, as the Sorcerer is. If it can be broken, it will be broken. There is also nothing to suggest no multiclassing within the Pdf on a quick cursory glance.

[SharkForce]

hmmm... well, i'm expecting everything except phoenix to get nerfed brutally before it sees print. i'm not convinced they're too powerful (with the exception of stone sorcerer, that might be a bit much), but they're definitely much more powerful than any sorcerer subclass already in print by a significant margin. which means they're either going to need to rewrite the PHB sorcerer classes (no sign of that coming) or they're going to need to take away toys from these sorcerer subclasses.

which is a shame, it's nice to see some sorcerer subclasses with some actual meat to them. i especially love the sea sorcerer in terms of making it feel different and unique. but sorcerer subclasses just don't have that kind of power budget.

[Kileonhardt]

I'm guessing this is the voice of all experience on Warlock/Sorcerer multiclasses talking and that someone who is actually currently playing a Conquer Paladin/Sorcerer (ab)using AoA and Sentinel BB already in a similar manner cannot speak for himself?


Fancy that. I'm doing the first bit of playtesting; theorycrafting a build to use in game. And it doesn't matter if it's meant to be multiclassed, as the Sorcerer is. If it can be broken, it will be broken. There is also nothing to suggest no multiclassing within the Pdf on a quick cursory glance.

I mean obviously if you like playing with AoA then you'll go for it anyway. My testing of using a character built around it for 6 months ended up leaving a sour taste in my mouth so I am admittedly bias on that issue.

Obviously people around here are going to go through their theorycrafting with multiclassing. My point was that saying something is broken and they need to account for multiclassing isn't really the issue since multiclassing is an optional rule and pretty much always breaks the game no matter what anyway.

[Rfkannen]

I dont get the flavor of the sea sorcerer.

Fs is the chosen one. Hardy, able to support, atractive.

Pheonix is a crazy mage destroying everything in its path. A real "wild" mage

Stone is a hardy gish. The magic knight.

Sea is .... What? A pirate witch i guess? I just dont get what archtype its suppose ro be.

[DracoKnight]

Sea is .... What? A pirate witch i guess? I just dont get what archtype its suppose ro be.

Best when multiclassed with Fiend Warlock for Davvy Jones :smalltongue:

[Potato_Priest]

That'll never happen. WIZARDS of the Coast, after all, not Sorcerers of the Plains.

I can easily imagine sorcerers reigning supreme. What'd be a real turnaround would be Fighters of the Forests.

[DracoKnight]

I can easily imagine sorcerers reigning supreme. What'd be a real turnaround would be Fighters of the Forests.

Obviously Warlocks of the Cavern are using both Sorcerers of the Plains and Wizards of the Coast as puppets, and all the Fighters of the Forest have to do to supplant the Wizards of the Coast is take out the Warlocks of the Cavern.

[Sicarius Victis]

Obviously Warlocks of the Cavern are using both Sorcerers of the Plains and Wizards of the Coast as puppets, and all the Fighters of the Forest have to do to supplant the Wizards of the Coast is take out the Warlocks of the Cavern.

That...honestly explains a lot.

[Drackolus]

Obviously Warlocks of the Cavern are using both Sorcerers of the Plains and Wizards of the Coast as puppets, and all the Fighters of the Forest have to do to supplant the Wizards of the Coast is take out the Warlocks of the Cavern.

I would rather hang out with the Band of Bumbling Bards from Baator. Politics is too hard.

[Thurmas]

Even without it you are looking at 58.95 DPR (more if you use a better than 1d8 weapon, the procs of BB/GFB trigger, you have feats or racial damage bonuses) and that is far too close to the balls-to-the-wall Barbarian (top of the damage charts) for a full spellcaster.
Stone's Edge needs to be a 1x day ability, and the Reaction part of Stone Aegis needs to use your Bonus Action instead of Reaction.

Are you using BB/GFB damage in that to get that much damage? You can't cast spells with the reaction, its just a single attack. Its also not an AoO so Warcaster is out.

[DracoKnight]

That...honestly explains a lot.

Indeed. And actually, I just described an adventure that I recently ran as the beginning arc of a campaign :smalltongue:

[Spiritchaser]

Stone Sorcerer is only broken if the DM allows it to be broken.

I'd agree with this, particularly when it applies to the suggestions to dip tome warlock for shillelagh...

At the DM's discretion, any melee type without enough dex or str is going to be grappled and shoved into some seriously inconvenient places.

Sure such a build is likely still a valid choice because stone does look strong, and there's no way every combat encounter will feature tavern brawls... well, ok there's a way, but... That's not my point.

You go in knowing full well that you're getting a strong option, and paying for it with a significant weakness. Misty step can't be the presumed answer every time.

[Deleted]

I'd agree with this, particularly when it applies to the suggestions to dip tome warlock for shillelagh...

At the DM's discretion, any melee type without enough dex or str is going to be grappled and shoved into some seriously inconvenient places.

Sure such a build is likely still a valid choice because stone does look strong, and there's no way every combat encounter will feature tavern brawls... well, ok there's a way, but... That's not my point.

You go in knowing full well that you're getting a strong option, and paying for it with a significant weakness. Misty step can't be the presumed answer every time.

This.

Plus if a group comes in with all MC stone sorcerers... You know what they, eventually, are going to do.

The line about being on the same surface is very nice, multiple ways to stop this ability from working if it becomes a problem.

[miburo]

Oh man, I really want to like the Stone Sorcerer. It's got all the gish things going. But...it's just too good. Con-based armor, at-will Aegis with scalable DR and scalable damage.

I wish the Aegis ability marked an opponent rather than protecting an ally though...there's too much incentive to cast this on, say, a Fighter with the Sentinel feat, have them wade in, and if the monsters attack someone else you just yank them back. Actually, Fighter with Polearm Mastery, Tunnel Fighter, and Sentinel, protected by the Stone Aegis would absolutely wreck house.

Also yeah, a couple levels of Warlock make the Stone Sorcerer even more ridiculously powerful. Even just 2 levels for Eldritch Blast + Cha damage (though the 3rd for Shillelagh is a good investment to reduce MADness). Stone 1/Tomelock 3/Stone X. I pity the DM who deals with that one...

[The Vanishing Hitchhiker]

I miss the flavor of the older Favored Soul's use of domain spells. This one seems more generic to me at first blush; feels like there's only so much you can do with the default spell list to differentiate between, say, a War deity and a Nature deity. The article doesn't even mention domains one way or the other, so I guess that's what houserules are for.

[Drackolus]

I'd agree with this, particularly when it applies to the suggestions to dip tome warlock for shillelagh...

At the DM's discretion, any melee type without enough dex or str is going to be grappled and shoved into some seriously inconvenient places.

Sure such a build is likely still a valid choice because stone does look strong, and there's no way every combat encounter will feature tavern brawls... well, ok there's a way, but... That's not my point.

You go in knowing full well that you're getting a strong option, and paying for it with a significant weakness. Misty step can't be the presumed answer every time.
Grappling monkeys with 60 movement. They grapple, prone, and punch/bite for 1d6+mod (with advantage, because prone.) Only 1 attack each, but they work together. Give them an average bonus (16 str, +2 prof for +5 athletics), and have the party surrounded. Monkeys crash the adventuring party.
For a particularly bad time, they are trained/magically commanded by the bbeg to drag them into traps. Bonus points if they are flying monkeys. And they steal shoes. And little dogs, too.

[Sigreid]

I dont get the flavor of the sea sorcerer.

Fs is the chosen one. Hardy, able to support, atractive.

Pheonix is a crazy mage destroying everything in its path. A real "wild" mage

Stone is a hardy gish. The magic knight.

Sea is .... What? A pirate witch i guess? I just dont get what archtype its suppose ro be.

The product of Poseidon hey diddle diddling a maiden is the way I read it.

[GraakosGraakos]

I mentioned this in the combo thread too, but UA is (obviously) unbalanced, but the point they have made during the UA process is that they don't even attempt to balance the archetypes for Multiclassing. So all the dips in this thread are great if your DM allows them, but they are actually unconsidered by the devs in any way, so they'll almost certainly be busted. Arguing which is the most busted is therefore a little...gun-jumpy.

[Sigreid]

I mentioned this in the combo thread too, but UA is (obviously) unbalanced, but the point they have made during the UA process is that they don't even attempt to balance the archetypes for Multiclassing. So all the dips in this thread are great if your DM allows them, but they are actually unconsidered by the devs in any way, so they'll almost certainly be busted. Arguing which is the most busted is therefore a little...gun-jumpy.

And the sub classes that we have seen survive to actual publish were way toned down.

[The Vanishing Hitchhiker]

The product of Poseidon hey diddle diddling a maiden is the way I read it.

I'm eyeing it for my bronze ancestry dragonborn, too.

[Syll]

Oh man, I really want to like the Stone Sorcerer. It's got all the gish things going. But...it's just too good. Con-based armor, at-will Aegis with scalable DR and scalable damage.

I wish the Aegis ability marked an opponent rather than protecting an ally though...there's too much incentive to cast this on, say, a Fighter with the Sentinel feat, have them wade in, and if the monsters attack someone else you just yank them back. Actually, Fighter with Polearm Mastery, Tunnel Fighter, and Sentinel, protected by the Stone Aegis would absolutely wreck house.

Also yeah, a couple levels of Warlock make the Stone Sorcerer even more ridiculously powerful. Even just 2 levels for Eldritch Blast + Cha damage (though the 3rd for Shillelagh is a good investment to reduce MADness). Stone 1/Tomelock 3/Stone X. I pity the DM who deals with that one...

Stone 1/Tomelock 3/Stone X.... so level 9 before you get your Aegis. Level 17 before Stone's Edge. It's the kind of stuff that sounds nice on paper, but having campaigns actually last that long is at best uncommon. Also requires another PC to build for synergy with your own.

There is a very real cost to giving up your reaction, not least of which being Shield. I see Aegis as being best used on your squishier members, not the heftier ones. Otherwise you're left with your own (squishy) self in the midst of of a bunch of angry critters that now have an unarmored target in easy reach. And I agree with the other poster who mentioned the requirement of 'being on the same surface' as significant, if the DM wants it to be, combined with the fact that this ability makes use of the term "that you can see" no less than 3 times, and necessitates a melee attack to proc as well.

Not needing DEX for AC doesn't mean you still don't need it for initiative and DEX saves, and boosting DEX at the cost of STR removes the option for GWM

Edit: Also, using your reaction to teleport to an enemy's side on HIS turn could feasibly end very badly. I would be shocked if a DM did not plan for this scenario and ambush accordingly. By limiting you to an open 5' square adjacent to the triggering enemy, it gives the DM a lot of leeway to position you exactly where he would like.

[Deleted]

Grappling monkeys with 60 movement. They grapple, prone, and punch/bite for 1d6+mod (with advantage, because prone.) Only 1 attack each, but they work together. Give them an average bonus (16 str, +2 prof for +5 athletics), and have the party surrounded. Monkeys crash the adventuring party.
For a particularly bad time, they are trained/magically commanded by the bbeg to drag them into traps. Bonus points if they are flying monkeys. And they steal shoes. And little dogs, too.

Apes, monkeys are a bit on the small side to be grappling or even dealing 1d6 base damage.

What you want is a grappling ape.

Monkeys would probably use the "Climb onto a bigger creature" action.

[Drackolus]

Apes, monkeys are a bit on the small side to be grappling or even dealing 1d6 base damage.

What you want is a grappling ape.

Monkeys would probably use the "Climb onto a bigger creature" action.
That's beautiful imagry. Rabid monkeys climbing on adventurers while apes just hold them onto the ground.

[Deleted]

That's beautiful imagry. Rabid monkeys climbing on adventurers while apes just hold them onto the ground.

Oh yes, I've used Swarm of Monkeys many times.

But generally they do less grappling and more "Climb onto a bigger creature" until the target can't move because of their (said swarm of monkeys) combined weight.

[Giant2005]

Are you using BB/GFB damage in that to get that much damage? You can't cast spells with the reaction, its just a single attack. Its also not an AoO so Warcaster is out.

The numbers you quoted weren't even including the Reaction attack. That is just the result of attacking twice with a BB/GFB, a 1d8 weapon, and the OP Stone's Edge.
I did get it wrong though - I gave the Sorcerer Advantage in those calculations because I (wrongly) believed Foresight was on the Sorcerer spell list.

[Drackolus]

Oh yes, I've used Swarm of Monkeys many times.

But generally they do less grappling and more "Climb onto a bigger creature" until the target can't move because of their (said swarm of monkeys) combined weight.

That's absolutely brilliant. See if the party gets suspicious when I ask them what their encumbrance loads are :smalltongue:
We usually don't bother keeping track (as per phb suggestion). Only time it has been abused is when I got excited about the realization that I can use Jack of all Trades on tools, and proceeded to buy almost every single tool in the phb (higher level character, so I had the funds). I didn't realize it until someone asked me where I was holding all of those.

[Deleted]

That's absolutely brilliant. See if the party gets suspicious when I ask them what their encumbrance loads are :smalltongue:
We usually don't bother keeping track (as per phb suggestion). Only time it has been abused is when I got excited about the realization that I can use Jack of all Trades on tools, and proceeded to buy almost every single tool in the phb (higher level character, so I had the funds). I didn't realize it until someone asked me where I was holding all of those.

Buy a donkey, tell them you keep them on your ass?

But thank you, I typically am quite diabolical with stoopid things.

[Drackolus]

Buy a donkey, tell them you keep them on your ass?

But thank you, I typically am quite diabolical with stoopid things.

Darn, missed opportunity. I already got a bag of holding later on.

[Thurmas]

The numbers you quoted weren't even including the Reaction attack. That is just the result of attacking twice with a BB/GFB, a 1d8 weapon, and the OP Stone's Edge.
I did get it wrong though - I gave the Sorcerer Advantage in those calculations because I (wrongly) believed Foresight was on the Sorcerer spell list.

Gotcha. I thought you were just calculating the reaction attack, and my mind was being blown.

[Sicarius Victis]

Just make friends with a Goliath Bearbarian. They can eventually carry - what, over a thousand pounds, entirely unencumbered?

[skaddix]

My main complaint stands needs more spell slots. I be fine just doing the Stone Sorcerer and giving them some more low level slots as long as they are thematic.

Stone Sorcerer:

Stone Sorcerer beat the old Favored Soul in the Alleyway and took his stuff.

Not only is Stone Sorcerer good. Its Keystone is so weak that you don't even lose much by sacking it to dip 3 levels in that sweet Tomelock. You could also try getting some Samurai or Blade Singer. Especially Samurai as Fighting Spirit could be quite useful. The only benefit needs to be Errata ie (does the keystone let you apply it to yourself). Honestly, applying aegis to yourself is the only thing that this class needs to be perfect. That and an Extra attack and/or War Magic.

Sea Sorcerer:
Pretty cool I guess. Not much in terms of damage boost but has some useful utility and pretty good damage protection especially if magic weapons don't affect it. Maybe boost the affect of curse or at least let it work on spells. Healing or some fast recovery is all it really lacks.

Phoenix:
No Fire Resistance or Immunity? Cheated. Beyond that Ignite is trash needs a boost. Phoenix Rez should give hit points equal to level + Charisma Modifier or something. And Mantle of flames yeah more then one use per long rest that is for sure. Scale it with something levels, Charisma Modifier, or use sorcerer points. One is not good enough. You are great for Boss Fights and can nova for one fight but beyond that you are useless.

Favored Soul:
The old version was flat better in every way. Granted it needed some nerfs but I still like you being forced to pick a Domain. All Sorcerers should get a thematic bonus spell list just require slots provided from said to be only spent on that list. Losing the extra attack is okay. I guess but please give back the wings and armor. I guess they thought too many Sorcerers could fly. Considering Dragon, Storm and Phoenix can already do it. Favored Soul would mean half of all Sorcerers could fly. And all of them have some extra movement ability.

[Asmotherion]

Stone Sorcerer is only broken if the DM allows it to be broken.

I for one love 3e/4e's optimization style and would love to see re implement diverse power levels.

No offence, but my point of view on this eddition was "at least, the devs decided we're gonna have a balanced edition, that's still fun to play". Now it's going back to 3.5 which was great, no arguement there, but was unbalanced as hell, making only some options viable, wile the other options were automatically so far behind nobody ever considered them.

So, my point is, wile it does fit me just fine to have an op Sorcerer, as it's my second favorite class after Warlock (favorite back in 3.5 before the Warlock was born), and when I play as a PC I'm always the Warlock/Sorcerer of the group, it makes me feel unfair to my co-players to optimise with Stone Sorcery, and at the same time, I can't ignore it as an optimiser and this makes me feel uneasy...

This is the reason why we always ban UA material from campains with my group, and instead only play core material. In the rare case we allow UA it's a one session thing only just to playtest.

[Spacehamster]

They really ruined Favored soul, the previous version were way more useful and flavorful.

[skaddix]

They broke its Wings.

Granted Wizards of the Coast continue to show their bias for Wizards by constantly taunting Sorcerers with the hope that hey maybe will get more spells. To snatch it away. Granted they have to go back and give all the Sorcerer's Bonus Spells to balance it. So maybe they will save it for a PHB.

[Zalabim]

First of all, I really like all the concepts in this UA. It's a really good feeling. Now, to nitpick tiny details and mechanical flaws!

Favored Soul: My overall impression of this is that it's a bland, generic, all-purpose magic-user class. This is a character that happens to have a random Gift, Talent, Blessing, or Favor that allows them to use and learn magic, but not much of anything else. They don't have useful features other than casting spells. There isn't much room in their spells known for synergy between the two spell lists. This could be a base class, possibly ditching metamagic, then getting actual class features to make a spellcaster for a setting that doesn't split clerics/wizards. It doesn't feel very connected to any specific or general divine nature. It could as well be Dune's Bene Gesserit or WoT's Aes Sedai. My first impression is that it will be too weak.

Special note for Favored by the Gods. Its effect is perfect for saying "you are twice-blessed." It is literally Bless's effect twice. If you also cast Bless, you can be thrice-blessed. Beautiful effect, but also very minor. Your attack rolls aren't often important, and fade in importance as you get higher levels. So it ends up as +5 to one saving throw per rest. Neat little effect, but rather rare.

Phoenix Sorcery: I like the flavor, but I don't like that it's all usable only once a day. It doesn't even look strong enough to justify only using once a day. I hope you learned Feather Fall.

Ignite: I know it's fluff, but it lets you set things on fire without implements, much effort, or any magic words or waving hands. It even works on attended objects, though there's no mechanism listed for touching someone else's clothes.

Mantle of Flame: Ok, it's probably good enough to be limited at level 1. Getting the damage bonus at level 1 is pretty strong. But by level 18, it should be on all the time and then some. Special note for Scorching Ray, once you factor in accuracy, 2d6+5 per bolt is a little weaker than 1d4+1+5 per missile from the Evoker's Magic Missile. It can take advantage of beneficial situations, but MM has a better damage type and one extra missile on it to begin with.

Phoenix Spark: I'm surprised this doesn't say "including you" in its area damage. It doesn't prevent much damage, leaves you at 1 HP anyway, and ends your sole Mantle of Flame if you had it on.

Nourishing Flame: I do like the healing flame nature of this. If you cast nothing but fire spells at level 20 this is 199 extra HP, assuming you leave your sorcery points alone.

Form of the Phoenix: Aside from resistance to all damage, this could also be a constant effect at this point. The extra damage on Phoenix Spark means you want to die when in this form, but the resistance makes it the hardest time to die. Of course, if Phoenix Spark does trigger, you'll lose flight and hover, fall, and end up dying anyway.

Do: Make a phoenix themed fire subtype sorcerer origin.
Don't: Make it like this.
Off-the wall idea: make this the "fly in the air and bombard the enemy with fire" sorcerer, that can heal allies when casting fire spells, and if reduced to 0 HP, may opt to instead unleash that small fireball and be incapacitated in a protective shell while they recuperate once per day. Make the character fun to play more often than once per day.

Sea Sorcery:Sally sells sea sorcery by the seashore. Curse of the Sea is wordy, complicated, and weak. It's also fluffy and always available right from level 1. It doesn't scale up well for when you have more spell slots to spend and more targets to deal with. The rest of the features look powerful and defensive, so it might still be fine overall, just defensively slanted.

Special attention for Curse of the Sea combining with Create Bonfire for repeated saving throws from a cantrip without spending more of your own actions every turn. Only really useful if you're going to cast lightning bolt over and over again or something. It seems intensely anti-thematic. Might want to change your name to the Steamy Bath Sorcerer, or the Modern Conveniences Sorcerer at that point.

Stone Sorcery: Wow. Swordmage aegis. Two at the same time. I did not expect that here. So I notice that the only melee attacks this path has to make are the ones from the reaction. Otherwise, you're allowed to play just like any other sorcerer. It's at least an option to keep in mind if you find yourself beat and low on HP. I know Stone's Edge is single target instead of area damage, but in its favor it works on any kind of damaging spell, including cantrips. It is really strong for naturally single target spells. It likely has to be reduced to quarter of level, or +cha, damage and have some kind of activation restriction, like spell slot use, once on your turn, or only on a creature within your reach or standing on the same surface. Things like that. It is much stronger than the Wild Mage's exploding die, far more than being single target only can justify, particularly for cantrips.

Contrast: Curse of the Sea, once after you successfully land a cantrip, you can deal +5 lightning damage to one target with a lightning spell. Stone's Edge, once after every spell you cast you can deal +10 Force damage to one target of the spell.
--
As a final note, not a single one of these Origins uses Sorcery Points in their features. They share that with the Storm Sorcerer, I think.

And we now have the sorcerous planeteers. The Favored Soul, loved by the gods, is Heart.


More than that though, that subclass makes the Sorcerer a top of the line melee fighter.
With two SCAG Cantrips, a third, more powerful version of a SCAG Cantrip, and up to an extra 20 damage from Stone's Edge per round; the Sorc outdamages basically anything in melee combat. At level 20, we are talking 82.8375 DPR against AC 20 while only using a crappy 1d8 weapon and no feat/racial bonuses. It can even achieve considerably more than that if the secondary procs of GFB or BB trigger. That is beyond unreasonable for a full caster. T

Even without it [the reaction attack] you are looking at 58.95 DPR (more if you use a better than 1d8 weapon, the procs of BB/GFB trigger, you have feats or racial damage bonuses)
You've clearly messed up your calculations somewhere, because I'm coming up with only 58.05 with quickened BB, BB, and a reaction hit, or 41.4 without the reaction attack. That's assuming +11 to hit, 1d8+5 damage +10 stone's edge, +3d8 from booming blade against AC 20.

The numbers you quoted weren't even including the Reaction attack. That is just the result of attacking twice with a BB/GFB, a 1d8 weapon, and the OP Stone's Edge.
I did get it wrong though - I gave the Sorcerer Advantage in those calculations because I (wrongly) believed Foresight was on the Sorcerer spell list.
FFS, man. I don't need you to show your work, but if you're including Foresight, say so. That way these misunderstandings can be cleared up promptly. You might want to edit your original rant when you fix your calculations. For example, I am not including any long-duration concentration spell like Magic Weapon or Elemental Weapon.

Perhaps worst of all, these seem more a collection of related powers rather than an exploration or development of lineage. The relationship is often pretty vague; why are curses associated with the sea, for example?
That's because they're Sorcerous Origins, not Sorcerous Bloodlines. It's not a lineage. It's a wide variety of things which can include a lineage as one explanation.


The great thing about a Domain-based sorcerer subclass, for example, is a tight association to the relevant deity. Every new domain also creates a new sorcerer sub-subclass, which is quite elegant.
You and I must have very different definitions for the word elegant.

Correct.

It's a typo. Whenever you read UA, don't think RAW, think RAI. That's always a good rule of thumb.
It's not even a typo. It does exactly what it says it does, and if that wasn't clear enough on its own, the book even says you only use one calculation to determine your AC. If only people would read the damn book.

If you can Aegis yourself, you are not only Resistant, but following Bidmas, half the damage and then the -5 to damage. To put that into comparison;

There's too much wrong with all this to correct it all, but you cannot aegis yourself and halving damage comes after flat reductions to damage. The book specifies the order in general. I know it doesn't come up often.

[Slayn82]

The old Favored Soul was wrong even by the guidelines of the article that introduced him (don't give sorcerer subclasses more spells know because it breaks game balance - now here is this broken subclass that gets 10 extra spells know, plus stays on par with whatever Dragon origin offers).

The new favored soul at least can get some skeletons and Zombies, and that healing word or prayer of healing. And he can use magic items with cleric spells?

[MrStabby]

I did like the domain option for favoured soul in principle - it was a pretty cool way to get six+ subtypes in one archetype. The problem was that it rarely achieved its goal of feeling like a divine sorcerer. Too many of the domain spells were non-cleric spells so it ended up being favoured soul + non cleric spells - so not so much of a divine theme. Indeed when I saw favoured soul being played the bard in the group was casting more spells from the cleric list than the favoured soul was.

This version is a much better job and so much more interesting as a character building challenge.

[Dr. Cliché]

Could someone please explain the appeal of the Phoenix Sorcerer to me?

Three of its abilities are tied to a 1/day power that isn't great to begin with.

Yeah, +Cha to damage is nice when you've got it all the time. Would warlocks be as popular if Agonising Blast only worked for 1 minute per day?

What's more, in addition to being another 1/day ability, Phoenix Spark seems tailor-made to kill the party.

I suppose you could charge into the enemy ranks as a suicide bomber, but even then you'll surely be detonating your other front-line melee guys along with them. What's more, you'll be taking a big risk for a subclass that gets no AC or hp bonus, and which doesn't get self-healing until lv14.

There's a serious argument to be made that you'd be better off with no subclass at all - at least then you won't risk incinerating your allies when you drop to 0. :smalleek:

[Deleted]

Could someone please explain the appeal of the Phoenix Sorcerer to me?

Three of its abilities are tied to a 1/day power that isn't great to begin with.

Yeah, +Cha to damage is nice when you've got it all the time. Would warlocks be as popular if Agonising Blast only worked for 1 minute per day?

What's more, in addition to being another 1/day ability, Phoenix Spark seems tailor-made to kill the party.

I suppose you could charge into the enemy ranks as a suicide bomber, but even then you'll surely be detonating your other front-line melee guys along with them. What's more, you'll be taking a big risk for a subclass that gets no AC or hp bonus, and which doesn't get self-healing until lv14.

There's a serious argument to be made that you'd be better off with no subclass at all - at least then you won't risk incinerating your allies when you drop to 0. :smalleek:

I have the same concerns about the Phoenix Mage... But the appeal is to play a boom sorcerer... I guess...

Though, if you think about it, you could sneak into enemy lines and stab yourself to kill them all and then have the cleric walk in to heal you.



Edit====


No offence, but my point of view on this eddition was "at least, the devs decided we're gonna have a balanced edition, that's still fun to play". Now it's going back to 3.5 which was great, no arguement there, but was unbalanced as hell, making only some options viable, wile the other options were automatically so far behind nobody ever considered them.

So, my point is, wile it does fit me just fine to have an op Sorcerer, as it's my second favorite class after Warlock (favorite back in 3.5 before the Warlock was born), and when I play as a PC I'm always the Warlock/Sorcerer of the group, it makes me feel unfair to my co-players to optimise with Stone Sorcery, and at the same time, I can't ignore it as an optimiser and this makes me feel uneasy...

This is the reason why we always ban UA material from campains with my group, and instead only play core material. In the rare case we allow UA it's a one session thing only just to playtest.

No offense but 5e has never been balanced. The fact that the Sorcerer has always been the "little brother" to the wizard or the fact that martials are so damn mundane should have tipped you off to that.

Hell, 3.5 became more balanced than what 5e currently is! Stay within tier 3 (so mostly ignore the PHB lol) and you have a beautifully balanced game on thr players side of things. Want a simple class? Tier 4. Want a more powerful class? Tier 2. Optimize within each tier (or cross tier) to get your power level your group likes.

Think about that, 3.5 is more balanced than 5e. 5e isn't balanced, it's low powered and appears to have balance.

So faulting a new class or design for not being balanced is to fault re for being so reatricted at its core.

[DivisibleByZero]

If it's meant to be playtested, it's meant to be multiclassed. MCing is part of playing. Playtesters need to find these MC exploits before it becomes official material, if we want official material to remain balanced.

I know I'm a little late to the party here, but no, it isn't meant to be multiclassed.
None of the UA stuff is meant to be multiclassed.
The Devs have even flat out stated that UA stuff is not balanced for multiclassing. That's something they do when/if the concept goes over well as a whole, and when/if it gets an official release (like Storm Sorcerer).
So the statement "If it's meant to be playtested, it's meant to be multiclassed." is patently and verifiably false.

[MrStabby]

I know I'm a little late to the party here, but no, it isn't meant to be multiclassed.
None of the UA stuff is meant to be multiclassed.
The Devs have even flat out stated that UA stuff is not balanced for multiclassing. That's something they do when/if the concept goes over well as a whole, and when/if it gets an official release (like Storm Sorcerer).
So the statement "If it's meant to be playtested, it's meant to be multiclassed." is patently and verifiably false.

Your argument is a little fallacious. Yes it wasn't designed with multiclassing in mind. This does not mean they don't care how it multiclasses or that they shouldn't care. It just represents that this is an early version. Build a version, test it and refine is their model. Just because certain features were not considered int eh design process doesn't mean it shouldn't be tested.

If i design a car, and in prototyping the testes say it is too slow - then that means it is too slow. If I respond by saying it was designed for comfort and not speed, it doesn't mean that it isn't too slow. It just means there is more work to do following testing, work that I now know about because of the testing.

[VoxRationis]

Hell, 3.5 became more balanced than what 5e currently is! Stay within tier 3 (so mostly ignore the PHB lol) and you have a beautifully balanced game on thr players side of things. Want a simple class? Tier 4. Want a more powerful class? Tier 2. Optimize within each tier (or cross tier) to get your power level your group likes.

Think about that, 3.5 is more balanced than 5e. 5e isn't balanced, it's low powered and appears to have balance.

So faulting a new class or design for not being balanced is to fault re for being so reatricted at its core.

You have an odd idea of "balance" if "restricting yourself to a series of supplementary materials based on an unofficial metagame ranking of game content produced by the Internet" counts as good game balance in your eyes.

[jaappleton]

Sea actually plays a LOT like an Archfey Warlock. In fact, it's better if paired with it.

Nothing about "cursing" a target relies on it being a Sorcerer Cantrip.

Now, outright forget about Lightning; You've got Shocking Grasp and Lightning Lure. Touch and moving an enemy closer, respectively. Not what you want when you've got a d6 HD.

Cold? Not bad. You've got Frostbite, to impose Disadvantage on the next weapon attack. When Cursed, it also reduces speed by 15ft. Ray of Frost? Eh, also reduces speed and it doesn't stack.

But forced movement? YES! Warlock 2 for Repelling Blast now moves enemies by 25ft. At level 5, if you Quicken, that's four rays of Eldritch Blast total for 100ft of movement. No saving throw, it just happens.

Watery Defense looks a LOT like Archfey's Misty Escape to me. And if you DO go Warlock for EB, going Archfey gets you Fey Presence to Frighten. If enemies get close, Frighten then away before Blasting then away even further.

The "Get the hell away from me" blaster.

[DivisibleByZero]

Your argument is a little fallacious. Yes it wasn't designed with multiclassing in mind. This does not mean they don't care how it multiclasses or that they shouldn't care. It just represents that this is an early version. Build a version, test it and refine is their model. Just because certain features were not considered int eh design process doesn't mean it shouldn't be tested.

If i design a car, and in prototyping the testes say it is too slow - then that means it is too slow. If I respond by saying it was designed for comfort and not speed, it doesn't mean that it isn't too slow. It just means there is more work to do following testing, work that I now know about because of the testing.

Wrong and wrong. (http://www.sageadvice.eu/2017/01/21/does-a-paladinundying-light-warlock-get-to-add-cha-mod-to-divine-smite-damage-2/)


does a paladin/undying light warlock get to add cha mod to divine smite damage?
Unearthed Arcana material isn't tuned for multiclassing. We make a class/subclass multiclass-ready if it's going to become official. #DnD

[Zalabim]

I'm on the side that 5E is more balanced than 3.5E because the balance is PCs vs the world, not PCs vs PC. 4E is more balanced even than that, but the biggest draw of 5E is that it's simpler. Everything is more self-contained. There's less cross-referencing to make a character, gain a level, or resolve an effect. It's still a pain when there is unneeded cross-referencing, like between the spell lists and spell descriptions. Just look at how many different things go into an attack roll in 3.5e compared to 5e.

@jaappleton: The curse's effects are once per turn when you cast a spell. So you only ever get +15' of movement. That's still up to 55' from four bolts.

[MrStabby]

Wrong and wrong. (http://www.sageadvice.eu/2017/01/21/does-a-paladinundying-light-warlock-get-to-add-cha-mod-to-divine-smite-damage-2/)

Can't read and doesn't understand.

Redo from start.

[DivisibleByZero]

Can't read and doesn't understand.

Redo from start.

That's why I literally copy/pasted the relevant information for you to read into a quote. So that you wouldn't have to go there to read it. You can read it here.
But to make it even easier, I'll do it again, this time without the quotes:
Question: does a paladin/undying light warlock get to add cha mod to divine smite damage?
Answer from Crawford: Unearthed Arcana material isn't tuned for multiclassing. We make a class/subclass multiclass-ready if it's going to become official. #DnD

[Deleted]

You have an odd idea of "balance" if "restricting yourself to a series of supplementary materials based on an unofficial metagame ranking of game content produced by the Internet" counts as good game balance in your eyes.

The most unbalanced thing about 3.5 was actually the PHB, as you get away from there WotC made more bizarre and interesting things... But they typically only became broken through two primary ways.

1: Extreme optimization (tier lists do no take extreme optimization into account)
2: Interaction with the PHB
3: Interaction with the PHB

In 4e and 5e people do the same as they did in 3e. They place certain houserules at a table to make their experience more enjoyable. In 3.5 there was a ton more resources to take from than there is in 5e, so having a unofficial list of what people agree on makes sense.

Take the PHB out of the equation (for the most part just Wizards, Sorcerers, Clerics, Fighters, Monks and Driuds) and you have a very balanced game (obviously you may need to make a tweak here or there).

4: Interaction with the PHB

In 5e the classes are not balanced. The paladin has their damage niche but also some very very powerful abilities that put other classes to shame. However, the monsters the more common enemies are made bland and weaker so you don't notice it as much. Start playing against creatures that have dynamic options and you will see the huge step between martials and non-martials.

A good indication on balance is to ask "how many ways does the class give me to deal with situations". Martials have considerably less options for dealing with issues. They deal damage and sometimes (Barbarian and Rogue) gain abilities that make their skills better. Count the number of ways a cleric can deal with an issue, a wizard, or a warlock... There is no comparison.

Not to say you can't have fun with unbalanced games... People had fun with 2e and 3e for years after all. But that doesn't mean you should turn a blind eye to something just because it was fun. Many people swore off the 3.5 tier system, but that doesn't mean tiers (in some form) don't exist in 3.5.


edit----

Basically 3.5 eventually became balanced but 5e has the same problem as 3.5 in the beginning... The PHB isn't balanced.

[jaappleton]

Here's an idea: Let's discuss the UA article instead of edition wars and the balance of those editions?

[jaappleton]

For the record:

Sea Sorcerer

It is, in fact, Charisma SCORE. Not modifier. Clarified via Twitter by Crawford.

[MrStabby]

That's why I literally copy/pasted the relevant information for you to read into a quote. So that you wouldn't have to go there to read it. You can read it here.
But to make it even easier, I'll do it again, this time without the quotes:
Question: does a paladin/undying light warlock get to add cha mod to divine smite damage?
Answer from Crawford: Unearthed Arcana material isn't tuned for multiclassing. We make a class/subclass multiclass-ready if it's going to become official. #DnD

Read again what I wrote. Actually read it. Like the actual words. Like read the bit where I say that "Yes it wasn't designed with multiclassing in mind". Think about it. Think about whether it is productive to talk about whether UA is tuned for multiclassing. Think about if it adds anything.

Now take a minute to think about what I am saying. Or maybe it won't take a minute. Maybe you are actually smart enough to realise what I am meaning when you actually read what I write. Lets see.

The point isn't about whether it is designed for multiclassing. The point is whether feedback on how UA content multiclasses is useful to the developers. They are in a position of wanting to take prototype material and turn it into content they can charge for. How is knowing people's experience of playing classes with both optional and core rules harmful to them? It isn't more information and more feedback from a broader range of playstyles is good for them. Just because the first iteration was produced without regard to multiclassing doesn't mean subsequent ones should also disregard it. If they won't disregard it then feedback is appropriate.

[JumboWheat01]

For the record:

Sea Sorcerer

It is, in fact, Charisma SCORE. Not modifier. Clarified via Twitter by Crawford.

Ooh, that makes it such a powerful reaction defense against physical attacks. Especially combined with the resistance gained at 18th level...

[jaappleton]

Ooh, that makes it such a powerful reaction defense against physical attacks. Especially combined with the resistance gained at 18th level...

But is IS limited to bludgeoning, piercing or slashing, right? As opposed to Archfey's Misty Escape, which is just "LOLNOPE I'M OUT!"

So its situation. But whenever something gets in your face to attack you, you do get to escape after resisting the damage. Archfey has to take the full hit and then leave.

I'm not sure which one I like more. Archfey teleports. Go behind cover, leave the enemy guessing for a moment. Sea? Turn into a puddle and slide along the ground.

[JumboWheat01]

Yeah, just bludgeoning, piercing and slashing, so pretty much weapon/natural attacks (save for a few odd spells.) But yeah, it does ensure that you survive the situation (made doubly sure with the 18th level bonuses,) unlike a Feylock's Misty Step.

And a Feylock's Misty's Step Invisibility lasts only to your next turn, and the rules being silly like they are, since you can't hide when you turn invisible, you can still be found, and thus attacked anyway in some way, even if it includes disadvantage. So that's full damage from one attack and full damage from potential other attacks, versus no-selling one attack and then full damage from potential other attacks.

[tieren]

Sea actually plays a LOT like an Archfey Warlock. In fact, it's better if paired with it.

Nothing about "cursing" a target relies on it being a Sorcerer Cantrip.

Now, outright forget about Lightning; You've got Shocking Grasp and Lightning Lure. Touch and moving an enemy closer, respectively. Not what you want when you've got a d6 HD.

Cold? Not bad. You've got Frostbite, to impose Disadvantage on the next weapon attack. When Cursed, it also reduces speed by 15ft. Ray of Frost? Eh, also reduces speed and it doesn't stack.

But forced movement? YES! Warlock 2 for Repelling Blast now moves enemies by 25ft. At level 5, if you Quicken, that's four rays of Eldritch Blast total for 100ft of movement. No saving throw, it just happens.

Watery Defense looks a LOT like Archfey's Misty Escape to me. And if you DO go Warlock for EB, going Archfey gets you Fey Presence to Frighten. If enemies get close, Frighten then away before Blasting then away even further.

The "Get the hell away from me" blaster.

I like the flavor of that mix too, could fluff you are the descendant of a nereid. You get word the pool of your ancestor is in danger and you make a pact with an archfey to go protect it etc...

[DivisibleByZero]

Read again what I wrote. Actually read it. Like the actual words. Like read the bit where I say that "Yes it wasn't designed with multiclassing in mind". Think about it. Think about whether it is productive to talk about whether UA is tuned for multiclassing. Think about if it adds anything.

Now take a minute to think about what I am saying. Or maybe it won't take a minute. Maybe you are actually smart enough to realise what I am meaning when you actually read what I write. Lets see.

The point isn't about whether it is designed for multiclassing. The point is whether feedback on how UA content multiclasses is useful to the developers. They are in a position of wanting to take prototype material and turn it into content they can charge for. How is knowing people's experience of playing classes with both optional and core rules harmful to them? It isn't more information and more feedback from a broader range of playstyles is good for them. Just because the first iteration was produced without regard to multiclassing doesn't mean subsequent ones should also disregard it. If they won't disregard it then feedback is appropriate.

Read what JC wrote in response to that question. Actually read it. And then take a minute to think about it. Maybe you are actually smart enough to realize that what he's saying is that they don't consider multiclassing for UA playtest material at all, and that if/when a concept gets a decent reception from the playerbase, that's when they start thinking about how multiclassing will come into play.

Look at it this way.
WotC designs streetbikes for UA playtest.
Multiclassing, as an optional rule, is the off-road market.
The streetbike shouldn't be judged on its off-road capabilities, because off-road wasn't a consideration in its design.
If their streetbike gets decent enough feedback, they then take that motor and build an adventure bike, which can handle both street and off-road.

[Joe the Rat]

Lightning Lure is an interesting one. Damage option aside, you can move someone 15 feet away up to 25 feet in your direction.

Screw the damage, You're a railgun! Or people run into you a lot.

[EvilAnagram]

I don't get the problems with the Stone Sorcerer. He basically makes a melee sorcerer viable - not good, mind you. Viable.

It means that instead of having three to four stats to boost, you have two to three. The other boosts simply improve the sorcerer's ability to act in melee, which brings it up to still well below martial levels.

[Byke]

Sometimes I wonder if M&J post this kind of stuff just to see how many fans they have.

The initial draft of sorcerer in the alpha stages of 5e was better than this stuff. Here is a thought delete the sorcerer class, since they can't seem to balance around meta-magic and start over.

Distributed meta-magic to all of the full casters, put it deep into the base of the class system (IE after 12th level) to avoid gish and multi-classes abuse and make a better sorcerer.

For Clerics have it use channel divinities, for Bards inspiration and recreate the Incantantrix as a subclass for wizard. Then rebuild the sorcerer class that is good for all 20 levels instead of the multi-class light arcane caster we have now.

**EDIT TYPO***

[Drackolus]

I think that, when Crawford said that they haven't balanced UA material for multiclassing, he was saying that they haven't yet. In a similar example, they said they also tend to aim a bit high on the power scale, the tone it down appropriately.
They didn't actually say anything about the type of feedback they pay attention to.
As a counterpoint to myself, he was refusing to even clarify a ruling. (oddly enough, since it was a simple question to answer. Divine smite isn't a spell.) That does pretty strongly suggest that they aren't taking it into account at all. Considering it's AL legal, that feels odd, but who am I to judge someone else's creative method?

[MrStabby]

Look at it this way.
WotC designs streetbikes for UA playtest.
Multiclassing, as an optional rule, is the off-road market.
The streetbike shouldn't be judged on its off-road capabilities, because off-road wasn't a consideration in its design.
If their streetbike gets decent enough feedback, they then take that motor and build an adventure bike, which can handle both street and off-road.

Yeah, it seems your clutching at straws here. I have a couple more mnutes, so i'll bite.

Lets buy your analogy for a minute to see where it falls down. Well mainly it is because every bike is for the off-road market. Certainly I have never come across any class in any book that says "do not use the multiclassing rules with this class". Every class, by the time it gets to paid publication, is intended to be fit for use with the multiclassing rules. Every bike, by the time it gets to sale, is an off-road bike even if it comes from a prototype that was first designed for a flatter surface as a stage in it's development. How the prototype handles bumps is still useful information to the engineers. It might not be the highest priority information but more information is always better than less.

WotC want to produce an "off-road bike". Feedback on how their designs, at various stages of development, perform off road is therefore of use to them. In the end the consumer doesn't care what it was designed for, they just care that it works for what they use it for.


Now I won't want to take this to an extreme and say that all splat should be consistent with other splat. WotC through AL guidelines have made explicit their recommendations that the content from different books may not mix well together, but they also create the reasonable expectation that splat should combine well enough with the PHB.